Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:53 am

There you have it folks:

New form Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current SSBE Vegeta >>>>>> current Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku!

Vegeta (with even his mere SSBE form), OUTPERFORMED Silver haired Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku against Prime Granolah!

PUI Goku got one-shotted out of the form.

While SSBE Vegeta managed to last an entire fight against Prime Granolah. (Sure, he most likely got his butt kicked all throughout the fight), but at least he managed to took those hits and lived (and still stand upright!) to tell about them…

The feats don’t lie.

Mere SSBE Vegeta CLEARLY outperformed UI Goku by a large degree against Prime Granolah.

Lasting an entire fight, while getting your butt kicked left and right >>>>>> Getting one-shotted out of the form, by an attack you didn’t even see coming in the first place!

SSBE Vegeta > PUI Goku.

User avatar
Sikat
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:08 am

DBZ Macky wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:09 am What are the chances that Beerus is stronger than Goku in the same way Monaka was stronger than Goku in the Universe 6 Arc?
0%

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:33 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:09 am What are the chances that Beerus is stronger than Goku in the same way Monaka was stronger than Goku in the Universe 6 Arc?
He could just be lying through his teeth again just to motivate Goku to get stronger or something. Beerus is known to be a liar, I don't even know why people take his word seriously.

Beerus is weaker than Broly/MUI Goku until he actually beats someone on their level on-screen, and then we can talk.
We did see him curbstomp CSSB Vegeta, it's only a matter of time he'd do the same with MUI if he really is stronger as people suggest.
Nevaeh wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:16 pm Beerus' nonsensical scaling really got people going through movie credits :lol:
It's always funny to see the lengths people go through to try and make sense of Koyama's Broly and Toriyama's Beerus.
Beerus literally stomped SSBE Vegeta post Moro Arc, and this same Vegeta was stated to be above Broly by Whis and Goku.

The statement from the Broly Movie about Beerus was clearly retconned, and should not be taken seriously anymore. Beerus is still stronger than Current Goku and Vegeta until it is directly said he is not.

Devilman21/
Newbie
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:49 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:45 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:53 am There you have it folks:

New form Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current SSBE Vegeta >>>>>> current Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku!

Vegeta (with even his mere SSBE form), OUTPERFORMED Silver haired Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku against Prime Granolah!

PUI Goku got one-shotted out of the form.

While SSBE Vegeta managed to last an entire fight against Prime Granolah. (Sure, he most likely got his butt kicked all throughout the fight), but at least he managed to took those hits and lived (and still stand upright!) to tell about them…

The feats don’t lie.

Mere SSBE Vegeta CLEARLY outperformed UI Goku by a large degree against Prime Granolah.

Lasting an entire fight, while getting your butt kicked left and right >>>>>> Getting one-shotted out of the form, by an attack you didn’t even see coming in the first place!

SSBE Vegeta > PUI Goku.
I don't know. PUI Goku utterly crushed clone Granolah and then only lost because his accuracy lowered with time which allowed Granolah to target his vitals. He also wasn't aware he was even fighting a clone and was caught off guard. There's also the fact that this chapter seemed to heavily imply that the reason Vegeta did so well is because while Granolah may be much stronger than him, Vegeta is the more skilled and experienced fighter. To be clear I'm not trying to undermine Vegeta here, the fact that we was able to do so well against an opponent who took down PUI Goku and who's clone held it's own against SSB Goku before that is insanely impressive, but I just want to make sure we aren't jumping the gun here. I do think there's a good chance Vegeta's Hakaioshin form will rival PUI Goku tho.

I also think it doesn't make that much sense for Vegeta to be that far ahead of Goku. Vegeta being superior to Goku in SSBE alone let alone his new God of Destruction form seems insane. I just feel like it undermines the idea of Ultra Instinct being this borderline unbeatable, most powerful technique of the Gods that's it been built up to be. But hey maybe I'm wrong.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:11 pm

Yeah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. SSBE is not stronger than UI Goku. But I think this fight is a good example for solidifying SSBE Vegeta's position above Omen Goku (for those who were still skeptical about), and the fact that he is able to hold his own for a whole chapter against a guy stronger than Jiren, Broly and Angel Moro is quite a feat (in contrast, in the tournament he was one shotted by Jiren using this same form and later by Moro73), but obviously he's not above the Silver Haired form (Goku's accuracy in the form had also dropped when Granolah defeated him). His new form is already supposed to be his answer to that.

But Vegeta also mentioned that he got stronger during the fight against Granolah. It's a big power boost compared to his Moro arc version
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm

Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol

User avatar
Sikat
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:21 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP...
Grand Priest > Moro, in terms of importance.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Belmod
The exhibition match was a free for all, and Belmod ended up playing dead for the majority of it.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:33 pm

At this point, we have to assume that Belmod is much stronger than Jiren when he uses his destruction powers. Like Vegeta managed to get a hit on Beerus in CSSB, although that shouldn't have been possible considering how strong Beerus supposedly is. As someone said in one of the previous pages, perhaps Beerus (destruction) > Vegeta > Beerus (physical strength) as Belmod (destruction) > Jiren > Belmod (physical strength). The series has tried to showcase how brute force isn't everything in all its run.

User avatar
picc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:16 pm

For the record, Vegeta did not survive the hit that Granolah used to take out PUI Goku. Goku got hit with the vital sign shot which took him out of UI, and THEN got punched by Granolah and knocked out.

Vegeta got hit with the vital sign shot, but Granolah didnt bother to follow up. Not comparable circumstances.

From what I can tell, SSBE Vegeta is obviously stronger than Blue Goku using UI or even Sign, but PUI Goku is still stronger. I have no doubt Vegeta's new form will be the most powerful though.

New form Vegeta > PUI Goku > SSBE Vegeta > SSBE UI Goku
Planet Namek Bred

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:12 am

picc wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:16 pm For the record, Vegeta did not survive the hit that Granolah used to take out PUI Goku. Goku got hit with the vital sign shot which took him out of UI, and THEN got punched by Granolah and knocked out.

Vegeta got hit with the vital sign shot, but Granolah didnt bother to follow up. Not comparable circumstances.

From what I can tell, SSBE Vegeta is obviously stronger than Blue Goku using UI or even Sign, but PUI Goku is still stronger. I have no doubt Vegeta's new form will be the most powerful though.

New form Vegeta > PUI Goku > SSBE Vegeta > SSBE UI Goku
I agree with this.

Besides, the first fighter is always at a disadvantage when it comes to learning the proper counters to dismantle the antagonist’s strengths. If Vegeta fought first perhaps this discussion would take a different direction, since Goku would be the one to have proper knowledge of who exactly he is fighting. This seems to be their way to help each other grow.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am

I'm also thinking Granola wasn't going all out vs Vegeta either, he was under the impression that the saiyans work for Freeza and he was saving himself for the boss. Probably what he was trying to save was stamina.

I'd say Granola fought both of them with the same level of power, no power ups between both fights, and now that GoD Mode Vegeta is here, he'll unleash his true full power.

Hakai Vegeta/FPGranola
UI Goku
Clone Granola/Supressed real Granola
SSBE
--
SSB UI Goku

It's nice to see hakai isn't just a technique, Geets clearly grew stronger while learning to wield that power. What do you guys think Vegeta meant by "I'm growing stronger already" mid fight? could this hakai stuff work like some constant zenkai without needing to suffer fatal wounds?

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:38 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am I'm also thinking Granola wasn't going all out vs Vegeta either, he was under the impression that the saiyans work for Freeza and he was saving himself for the boss. Probably what he was trying to save was stamina.

I'd say Granola fought both of them with the same level of power, no power ups between both fights, and now that GoD Mode Vegeta is here, he'll unleash his true full power.

Hakai Vegeta/FPGranola
UI Goku
Clone Granola/Supressed real Granola
SSBE
--
SSB UI Goku
Still too soon to say wether Vegeta is superior to Goku or not. But to be fair, IF Granolah was that suppressed when fighting Vegeta, then you could argue that his performance was on par with SSB Goku using UI - he ultimately lost, but was able to deliver/dodge attacks on/from Granolah.

Which would be nice, but, SSBE IS inherently superior to SSB, so I'd say that Vegeta fought a stronger Granolah compared to the clone.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 amIt's nice to see hakai isn't just a technique, Geets clearly grew stronger while learning to wield that power. What do you guys think Vegeta meant by "I'm growing stronger already" mid fight? could this hakai stuff work like some constant zenkai without needing to suffer fatal wounds?
It's probably that, yes, as much as it contradicts previous statements and events - they never magically got permanently stronger (as in, a permanent bigger number) while fighting, that was a Black (anime) and Broly exclusive thing. So there's that.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:58 pm

Granolah got the highest Power Level this side of the gods, but he's still very unskilled with it.

Which fits the theme of the arc: Raw Power Is Not Everything.
Which fits the "Jiren is a stronger fighter than Belmod but Belmod, as a GoD, had tricks that keep him about Jiren if it's not a straight fight"

Which in turn fits the previous statements about fighters reaching or surpassing Beerus but him still being the "end game"

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:51 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am I'm also thinking Granola wasn't going all out vs Vegeta either, he was under the impression that the saiyans work for Freeza and he was saving himself for the boss. Probably what he was trying to save was stamina.

I'd say Granola fought both of them with the same level of power, no power ups between both fights, and now that GoD Mode Vegeta is here, he'll unleash his true full power.

Hakai Vegeta/FPGranola
UI Goku
Clone Granola/Supressed real Granola
SSBE
--
SSB UI Goku
The only thing I disagree with is the placement of Granolah clone. His clone was clearly matching SSB Goku + UI, to the point that they both took each other down, neither of them excelling. So the fact that Vegeta was facing the real Granolah and somehow holding his own would already put him above that (even though the real Granolah was holding back, the clone only had an unknown fraction of that power and the real one by definition has much more power at his disposition, and I would say that during the fight he got irritated enough to use more if it in some moments).

So I would put supressed Granolah above his clone due to the fact that he's actually using his real body this time, and even though he's not using his full power, it's more than the clone's set power that just matched SSB Goku
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am It's nice to see hakai isn't just a technique, Geets clearly grew stronger while learning to wield that power. What do you guys think Vegeta meant by "I'm growing stronger already" mid fight? could this hakai stuff work like some constant zenkai without needing to suffer fatal wounds?
Beerus told Vegeta that the source of his power was the fact that he thought of nothing but destruction, and that this mindset made his power "unlimited". Vegeta mentions something like that at the end and I believe the Hakai mindset may have boosted Vegeta's power as he starts to tap into it (particularly, it seems to be a better explanation for his big power boost after the training, but maybe it applies what he referred to during the fight against Granolah)

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:51 pm The only thing I disagree with is the placement of Granolah clone. His clone was clearly matching SSB Goku + UI, to the point that they both took each other down, neither of them excelling. So the fact that Vegeta was facing the real Granolah and somehow holding his own would already put him above that (even though the real Granolah was holding back, the clone only had an unknown fraction of that power and the real one by definition has much more power at his disposition, and I would say that during the fight he got irritated enough to use more if it in some moments).

So I would put supressed Granolah above his clone due to the fact that he's actually using his real body this time, and even though he's not using his full power, it's more than the clone's set power that just matched SSB Goku
I kind of agree with that. If anything, clone!Granolah was somewhat stronger than SSB+UI Goku, since he managed to outlast and prompt praise from Goku that his strength was "off the charts", but was still visibly struggling and getting damaged in the battle.

User avatar
picc
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:11 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am I'm also thinking Granola wasn't going all out vs Vegeta either, he was under the impression that the saiyans work for Freeza and he was saving himself for the boss. Probably what he was trying to save was stamina.

I'd say Granola fought both of them with the same level of power, no power ups between both fights, and now that GoD Mode Vegeta is here, he'll unleash his true full power.

Hakai Vegeta/FPGranola
UI Goku
Clone Granola/Supressed real Granola
SSBE
--
SSB UI Goku

It's nice to see hakai isn't just a technique, Geets clearly grew stronger while learning to wield that power. What do you guys think Vegeta meant by "I'm growing stronger already" mid fight? could this hakai stuff work like some constant zenkai without needing to suffer fatal wounds?
I think, and I hope, it's just a nod to Saiyans innate fighting potential. Zenkai can be a fairly dynamic thing, especially considering the liberties Toyo and co. have taken with all aspects of dragonball. And remember, the Z senshi's method of training to get stronger involves what? Simply beating the shit out of each other over and over.

It stands to reason that a saiyan, who's genetic potential calls for drastic increases in power in accordance to need, and who gets stronger literally by fighting a sparring partner, would see an increase in power during an intense battle like this.
Planet Namek Bred

User avatar
ssj3kakarot
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:47 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm

MUI Goku is probably still above Vegeta, so pump the breaks. Seems more likely to be another case of " Goku let his guard down again." When Vegeta surpasses Goku, Goku has always said something, so I think we should wait for something along those lines.

And technically Granny knocked both MUI Goku and SSBE Vegeta out of their forms. Goku took a heart shot (so I'm assuming that should be more deadly), and Vegeta took a stomach shot. BOTH were vital spots, and a logical argument could be made a heart shot is way stronger than a tummy shot.And Granny knocked both out of their forms.

Too soon to call either way.
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm

Goku didn't let his guard down. Granolah specifically stated that Goku's power was progressively dropping while he stayed in the form. Initial activation PUI is more than likely stronger than Vegeta.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm Goku didn't let his guard down. Granolah specifically stated that Goku's power was progressively dropping while he stayed in the form. Initial activation PUI is more than likely stronger than Vegeta.
Let's also consider the possibility that Vegeta's new form could also possess such weakness, since it's (as far as we know) unmastered and unused before.

Marz
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:57 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm MUI Goku is probably still above Vegeta, so pump the breaks. Seems more likely to be another case of " Goku let his guard down again." When Vegeta surpasses Goku, Goku has always said something, so I think we should wait for something along those lines.
Goku didn't let his guard down. Whenever something like this happens it is highlighted by some character, Vegeta was watching and he just praised Granolah's abilities. Goku kind of can't get caught off guard using MUI since he basically doesn't need to think to move and Granolah appeared in front of him so he could have reacted if he was able. Granolah just outspeed him (and yes, I know there's that whole accuracy dropping thing, that played a role too)
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm Initial activation PUI is more than likely stronger than Vegeta.
Are you referring to Evolved Blue Vegeta or his new form? Because we still don't know its power

Post Reply