Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I am sure that Shin's statement is also very valid, since Shin is the Supreme Kai of U7 and close colleague of Beerus. He would know how strong his Destroyer partner is, or would have a general idea anyway.

[Koitsukai]

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

Yes, it does, it's right there!! What else could BILLY AND PAUL WERE NEVER STATED TO BE STRONGER OR NEAR BOB'S POWER mean?

You said the statements WERE NEVER there, not that the statements meant something else like you are doing now, and there was no "probably" in the sentence to believe there could be another interpretation to it.

Man, your reading is so bad. This is why you guys are wrong about the story. Look at the last pages between Skar and I. I address those statements as existent. But you already know that. But since you have no canonical ground to stand on you are attempting at gaslighting. Trying to pretend I don't think they ever happened.

You even dared me to provide those statements like they didn't even exist!

You could've just said "mm yeah, my bad, I got caught up with it and went way too far to even pretend they WERE NEVER STATED" but no, you keep backpedalling and denying saying something that's in this very same page. You are having trouble with your own statements, so I can see why you struggle so much with the author's.

Regarding said statements: Why did I have the bowl, Bart. Why did I have the bowl?

[Skar]

I state what the story states. The statements made aren't fact due to the words used in them like probably and maybe. You claim they are true despite the story claiming they are simply assumptions. You are just posting your feelings.

It feels like you have selective reading or intentionally missing the point. In the next sentence after the one you bolded, I pointed the same thing was done in the original manga. It didn't matter if they said "probably" because it was still made clear in the story if they were intended to be wrong. As in Toriyama went out of his way to either show it was false or had another character refute it. The times a character used the word "probably" or "maybe" and wasn't questioned by anyone ended up being true.

[Miracles]

Yes, it does, it's right there!! What else could BILLY AND PAUL WERE NEVER STATED TO BE STRONGER OR NEAR BOB'S POWER mean?

You said the statements WERE NEVER there, not that the statements meant something else like you are doing now, and there was no "probably" in the sentence to believe there could be another interpretation to it.

Man, your reading is so bad. This is why you guys are wrong about the story. Look at the last pages between Skar and I. I address those statements as existent. But you already know that. But since you have no canonical ground to stand on you are attempting at gaslighting. Trying to pretend I don't think they ever happened.

You even dared me to provide those statements like they didn't even exist!

You could've just said "mm yeah, my bad, I got caught up with it and went way too far to even pretend they WERE NEVER STATED" but no, you keep backpedaling and denying saying something that's in this very same page. You are having trouble with your own statements, so I can see why you struggle so much with the author's.

Regarding said statements: Why did I have the bowl, Bart. Why did I have the bowl?

It's your fault for jumping in a convo you knew nothing about. Again you read into things that aren't there. Just like you do the story.

No it answers the question. They mean that their statements are uncertainties. They don't mean absolute fact.

I hate to press you on this, but no, it really doesn't answer my question at all, because you are ignoring it. You interpret their statements as uncertainties, and that's fine and all. But I did not ask for your interpretation, because I already know it.

What I asked for (and this is the fourth time, now) was what do Shin and Goku mean when they make their statements? What are they trying to convey about what they think? That is what I want a response to. Not your view on whether they are correct or not (again, I know it), but what are they saying?

Unless your position is that they don't know what they think or what they're saying, then presumably they are proffering some sort of view, thought, or belief. What is that view, as expressed in those statements? Please could you answer this question?

I only give you what the story stated. The facts are the statements mean they are uncertain. What the fandom thinks is irrelevant.

I state what the story states. The statements made aren't fact due to the words used in them like probably and maybe. You claim they are true despite the story claiming they are simply assumptions. You are just posting your feelings.

It feels like you have selective reading or intentionally missing the point. In the next sentence after the one you bolded, I pointed the same thing was done in the original manga. It didn't matter if they said "probably" because it was still made clear in the story if they were intended to be wrong. As in Toriyama went out of his way to either show it was false or had another character refute it. The times a character used the word "probably" or "maybe" and wasn't questioned by anyone ended up being true.

This is a different circumstance here. No conclusions are given like before. So you are still out of line with the story.

[Koitsukai]

Yeaahh, it's this side of the discussion that reads into things that aren't there... like Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power..

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Eh, everyone has their headcanon.

We all like to say we're abiding by the only truth, but the fact of the matter is that everyone here has their own interpretation, and there are hardly ever any real wrong interpretations beyond things that get irrefutable facts wrong that everyone else can agree was being interpreted wrong.

The people who claim others are simply using headcanon and not looking at the facts with a straight face and so boldly/insistently without themselves admitting their own biased interpretations are the most guilty of this because they're assuming they themselves are somehow completely objective despite the inherent subjectivity involved.

DB's strength discussions tend to get so heated and prominent because things can end up vague or not clear-cut enough that plenty of people come to equally valid yet wildly different interpretations.

[ankokudaishogun]

The statements were non-definitive in their formulation.

Context implies they are supposed to be taken as "true"(as other said, it's a common storytelling device), but their non-definitive nature, as well as them being given by unreliable narrators(at the very least for Shin, as he was proved wrong various times), makes it so the Author can easily backpedal should the need arise(another storytelling device).


About Jiren being stronger than Beerus specifically: we have no direct comparison.
We have a number of indirect comparisons which IMHO suggests Jiren being stronger than any GoD(anybody, really) without a fully mastered UI but, being indirect, they are not definitive and can easily be overturned\dismissed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The statements were non-definitive in their formulation.

Context implies they are supposed to be taken as "true"(as other said, it's a common storytelling device), but their non-definitive nature, as well as them being given by unreliable narrators(at the very least for Shin, as he was proved wrong various times), makes it so the Author can easily backpedal should the need arise(another storytelling device).


About Jiren being stronger than Beerus specifically: we have no direct comparison.
We have a number of indirect comparisons which IMHO suggests Jiren being stronger than any GoD(anybody, really) without a fully mastered UI but, being indirect, they are not definitive and can easily be overturned\dismissed.

Of course, by that same token, they can be interpreted as being true at face value just as easily and still be valid in such interpretations.

Without any current statements to say otherwise (a.k.a. stated by creators AFTER such prior statements have been established), nobody can truly say that someone saying something along such lines is actually wrong factually speaking.

[Skar]

This is a different circumstance here. No conclusions are given like before. So you are still out of line with the story.

The story is still ongoing so they could possibly be refuted later but I don't see a reason to question them until then. The statements haven't been disputed in any of the arcs after they've been made despite there being opportunities so I find it unlikely Toriyama is waiting to address them in a later arc. If the series ends without anyone questioning these statements, I'm going to assume they were intended to be true.

In almost three arcs after BoG, it was made clear when a new challenge was still weaker than Beerus. Freeza still feared Beerus, Hit was threatened by Champa who was said to be slightly weaker than Beerus, and Goku Black was targeting the Kaioshin to avoid confronting the GoDs. Rather than mislead the audience with intentionally false claims, the story could've just continued with every antagonist still confirmed to be far below Beerus until his rematch with Goku if that ever happens.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The statements were non-definitive in their formulation.

Context implies they are supposed to be taken as "true"(as other said, it's a common storytelling device), but their non-definitive nature, as well as them being given by unreliable narrators(at the very least for Shin, as he was proved wrong various times), makes it so the Author can easily backpedal should the need arise(another storytelling device).

Sure, and that's fine, as and when (and if) that happens.

But that's rather different to refusing to acknowledge that those statements were nevertheless a reasonably clear expression of what the characters were thinking on the subject at the time, irrespective of whether or not they end up being correct about it.

To take that line just seems like pure obfuscation to me, but hey.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Seems like we got em.

Alright folks, so how much stronger do you think all these guys are than Beerus with these statements in mind?

Gotta live them scales:

But first, Vegito from the Manga can't be compared to Broly from the anime and for this I'll use both continuities Jiren.

Anime:

Beerus-1
FPSS Broly-1.1 or 1
Jiren FP-1.25
Jiren SFP-1.6

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.8
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2

If Beerus doesn't end up stronger than Moro, that is.

[Koitsukai]

Re-reading the Earth fight against Moro, I wanted to touch upon the subject of Sign and ask for some help understanding the fight.

Goku vs Moro
1) Sign Goku fights evenly with a supressed Moro, gaining the upper hand thanks to his speed, then Moro powers up and the speed advantage is gone, Moro bearhugs him and the fight is over. Goku then admits to have more power left and draws out what it seems to be his FP, although Merus says it's not the best way to draw out all the power of the form.
-So, up to this point the fight is pretty clear, they were both holding back, Moro because he was supressed and Goku to mantain Sign for longer.


2) FP Moro and FP Sign go head to head. Goku has the speed on his side again. He overwhelms Moro but that exhausts him. He has not dealt real damage to Moro, and his speed is dropping, so Moro easily overpowers him. He drops out of Sign and then goes Sign but with SSB aura, and while not as effective as FP Sign, he does better than supressed Sign. Then Moro puts him down for good.
-Goku lacked the power to get truly ahead, but seemed to have closed the gap with FP Moro, thanks to his speed and also having more endurance than before. Moro could never get the upper hand but took a beating and got up smiling.


Vegeta vs Moro
Moro does not power up and is using the same power that Sign endured. Vegeta comes along and is not doing any better than Goku, actually his performance isn't impressive until his technique kicks in after a couple of hits. Vegeta is subdued and sent flying like FP Sign never did, with people already saying he is no match for Moro, even the goat is unenthused about the fight.
- Vegeta is no match for FP Moro, who can openly take his blows without even losing his footing. The Spirit Fission thing kicks in and the fight is over.


So, going by the fights, FP Sign did better than SSBE Vegeta, he was making Moro struggle even if he couldn't reduce his health bar. But later many statements suggest Vegeta was indeed the strongest.
Could it be that Vegeta was stronger but slower, explaining Sign's more impressive performance that accomplished nothing? or... could Piccolo have meant Vegeta surpassed Goku as a protector of Earth and not in pure power? they were speaking about just how far Vegeta has come as a person since the saiyan invasion.

Seems like we got em.

Alright folks, so how much stronger do you think all these guys are than Beerus with these statements in mind?

Vegito(anime) 9
Vegito(manga) 10
Beerus 10
Belmod(a) 10
Broly 10,1
Jiren(a) 10,2
UI(a) 10,3
Gogeta 10,3
-I guess we need this arc to end to know where Moro and manga Jiren and manga UI stand

[Hugo Boss]

So, going by the fights, FP Sign did better than SSBE Vegeta, he was making Moro struggle even if he couldn't reduce his health bar. But later many statements suggest Vegeta was indeed the strongest.
Could it be that Vegeta was stronger but slower, explaining Sign's more impressive performance that accomplished nothing? or... could Piccolo have meant Vegeta surpassed Goku as a protector of Earth and not in pure power?

Actually, Moro didn’t took neither Goku nor Vegeta seriously until spirit fission became a problem. And he is only using his full power now against the perfected version of Goku’s Ultra Instinct. So, to answer your question, just compare how Vegeta and Goku fight Moro’s final form. Going by performances, both were unable to hit him. Vegeta seems to be at least as strong as Sign, since it took more than one punch to put him down and Moro wasn’t interested in copying Sign.

[Cipher]

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.8
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2

Pending anything more concrete regarding Beerus and Moro’s relationship, I can totally get behind this. All seems like a pretty safe reading/allowance for wiggle-room.

[FishermanJohnWest]

https://twitter.com/FishermanWest/statu ... 2276990977

Broly Vs Jiren Fan Manga done by Me, enjoy it

[Triggered Vegeta]

https://twitter.com/FishermanWest/statu ... 2276990977

Broly Vs Jiren Fan Manga done by Me, enjoy it

Lol not bad. Pretty good actually.

[Skar]

Anime:

Beerus-1
FPSS Broly-1.1 or 1
Jiren FP-1.25
Jiren SFP-1.6

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.8
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2

If Beerus doesn't end up stronger than Moro, that is.

These make sense. Moro hasn't been compared to Beerus or GoDs yet but probably close since he's between Omen and MUI so I think he could be a 0.9.

Gogeta might be less than 1.5 because usually a gap that big in the DB manga was enough to easily defeat their opponent. In the original BoG scale, Whis was only 50% stronger than Beerus and I'm not sure if that was changed when SSJG was retconned to be much weaker than Beerus.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I get around that by piggybacking the LOG scale onto Toriyama’s “God Scale” from BOG, i.e. 10 is 10x 9, 9 is 10x 8, etc. It just about works with more conservative multipliers. SSG is still a 6, SSB is somewhere between a 7 and 8, Beerus is still a 10.

That way, SSB Fusion, UI, Broly, Jiren, etc are all a “10” generally but you can add specificity with each decimal point being a 25% gap. For example, you could have Broly as a 10.1, Gogeta as a 10.2, etc. Those aren’t my exact numbers, but just to give you an idea of my general framework.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I get around that by piggybacking the LOG scale onto Toriyama’s “God Scale” from BOG, i.e. 10 is 10x 9, 9 is 10x 8, etc. It just about works with more conservative multipliers. SSG is still a 6, SSB is somewhere between a 7 and 8, Beerus is still a 10.

That way, SSB Fusion, UI, Broly, Jiren, etc are all a “10” generally but you can add specificity with each decimal point being a 25% gap. For example, you could have Broly as a 10.1, Gogeta as a 10.2, etc. Those aren’t my exact numbers, but just to give you an idea of my general framework.

If I were to think of this as a power scaler, I would totally say that Toriyama had a logarithmic scale in mind. So low end to low end comparisons (or high end) between 2 consecutive tiers, have a gap of at least 10 times. That's crazy...

End of top KK×20 Blue who scales as at least a couple of times stronger than his early top version of the same form could be in say, tier 10, but Jiren is also in tier 10, yet can still be 10 times stronger!!!

Its as you said, and it imo perfectly works cause this 'tier' is pretty much what the fanbase refers to as God of Destruction level. Which is also why I believe that above GoD tier does not elevate anyone in some unimaginable heights, cause they all remain in its low levels. Comparable to high GoD tier. No one has shown being more capable and stronger than 10 average destroyers, hell not even 3.

Anime:

Beerus-1
FPSS Broly-1.1 or 1
Jiren FP-1.25
Jiren SFP-1.6

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.8
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2

If Beerus doesn't end up stronger than Moro, that is.

These make sense. Moro hasn't been compared to Beerus or GoDs yet but probably close since he's between Omen and MUI so I think he could be a 0.9.

Gogeta might be less than 1.5 because usually a gap that big in the DB manga was enough to easily defeat their opponent. In the original BoG scale, Whis was only 50% stronger than Beerus and I'm not sure if that was changed when SSJG was retconned to be much weaker than Beerus.

I may have pumped Gogeta a bit too much, I agree. Buy I can't see him below 1.5 cause frankly, to me he is Rage boost MUI level (in the anime) and in the Manga he probably defeated Broly in the same manner as in the movie.

Manga:

Beerus-1
Vegito Blue FT arc-1 or 1.1
Broly must be around Vegito tier
Gogeta in both continuities is a solid 1.8
Jiren (overall)-1 to 1.2
Prime Moro- 1.15
7-Moro-3 1.2

Pending anything more concrete regarding Beerus and Moro’s relationship, I can totally get behind this. All seems like a pretty safe reading/allowance for wiggle-room.

Thanks, I figured that it's best to keep everyone near with just a small advantage given to Moro and Jiren dude to them appearing in the endgame against the most powerful iterations of Goku. Broly is imo, pretty much a Vegito case all over. So I don't mind the 2 being equal. Gogeta however should be equal or slightly below current MUI, the only one who could possibly contend 100% with this new power.

Something tells me, however, that the long awaited Beerus/Moro comparison may never come...

[JewyB]

I find it very odd how stubbornly people are arguing Beerus is weaker than every other threat in super considering he has slept through most of them, and it's not like he isn't capable of feeling their power.

The only one i would argue could potentially be above Beerus would be Fuse Zamasu, and thats purely based on his immortality/durability. The two phrases about anyone possibly surpassing Beerus come from Shin who, i just think it's weird anyone who is a fan of Dragon Ball would think he has any credibility, and Goku whose experiences amount to fighting a Beerus using only a fraction of his power and watching him fight against Gods who are on roughly the same level as him, so he can't judge how effectively he would stomp a mortal.

Also, Beerus is literally standing watching MUI Goku fight and complimenting his progress, he isn't afraid of Goku surpassing him or jealous of the progress he has made. Beerus is shown to be fearful of those who surpass him, the exception being Whis(whom he has shown fear of), because he is placed above Whis hierarchy-wise, and that protects him.

If Goku > Beerus then Beerus would fear Goku, especially knowing he can't control him. I wouldn't be surprised for Beerus to make it clear how much further he still is above Goku and Moro very shortly.