Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Block88]

Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.

I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.
Here how I put it
MUI Goku
LB Jiren
FP Jiren
UI Omen 3 goku
FT arc Vegito
SSJBE Vegeta
GoD Toppo
Corrupted Zamasu
UI Omen 2 goku/ Kefla

Shin statement really isn't vague,the next statement he goes to make pretty much states he was referring to his strength being above anything they face before,even Whis support his statements so Vegito Blue (FT arc) would pretty much get smacked around by the higher tiers in the T.o.P going by how he's comparable to Corrupted Merged Zamasu who wasn't low G.o.D tier character,let alone UIO Goku (Ep 110) level.Only Manga Vegito Blue would be G.o.D tier with the final kamehameha.

Nothing suggest Merged Zamasu knows the G.o.Ds true power and easily gets contradicted,the fact that U9 Kai goes on to make statement of SSJB Goku having power that "rivals" the gods would be suggesting that SSJB Goku rivals the G.o.Ds which is clearly wrong going by how that Goku doesn't even surpass Sidra.

different=/=stronger so yeah shin isn’t clear cut and shin not even the most reliable guy to go buy.
Whis statement was referring to jiren full power not the power he was displaying unless u think a Supressed jiren is >Beerus and Co. which makes the powerscaling even more fucked than it is.
Zamasu despite his ego shouldn’t be ignorant on how strong a GoD is given he and black avoided them during there genocide run.

[kaiowhatmaster]

I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.
Here how I put it
MUI Goku
LB Jiren
FP Jiren
UI Omen 3 goku
FT arc Vegito
SSJBE Vegeta
GoD Toppo
Corrupted Zamasu
UI Omen 2 goku/ Kefla

Shin statement really isn't vague,the next statement he goes to make pretty much states he was referring to his strength being above anything they face before,even Whis support his statements so Vegito Blue (FT arc) would pretty much get smacked around by the higher tiers in the T.o.P going by how he's comparable to Corrupted Merged Zamasu who wasn't low G.o.D tier character,let alone UIO Goku (Ep 110) level.Only Manga Vegito Blue would be G.o.D tier with the final kamehameha.

Nothing suggest Merged Zamasu knows the G.o.Ds true power and easily gets contradicted,the fact that U9 Kai goes on to make statement of SSJB Goku having power that "rivals" the gods would be suggesting that SSJB Goku rivals the G.o.Ds which is clearly wrong going by how that Goku doesn't even surpass Sidra.

different=/=stronger so yeah shin isn’t clear cut and shin not even the most reliable guy to go buy.
Whis statement was referring to jiren full power not the power he was displaying unless u think a Supressed jiren is >Beerus and Co. which makes the powerscaling even more fucked than it is.
Zamasu despite his ego shouldn’t be ignorant on how strong a GoD is given he and black avoided them during there genocide run.

So you basically just ignore after the second statement he makes by saying "He's strong,PLAIN and SIMPLE" clearly suggesting he was talking about his power being a different level then the previous foes,also if we really were to say Jiren's power being "different" wasn't talking about strength wise different then what different could he be talking about? Jiren's ki is literally just mortal ki,there's really not anything unique about it,so I don't see why he would be talking about anything else besides strength wise difference,that would only thing that would make sense in his statement. Also using the Shin isn't a reliable guy excuse doesn't work all the time,he's literally comparing Heavily Suppressed Jiren's ki to Corrputed Merged Zamasu's ki,how can you screw that up?



Whis doesn't know Jiren's full power,the fact he goes to now to believe that the rumor is now true of a mortal surpassing his own G.o.D and goes to claim of saying "perhaps he even surpassed it" showing he doesn't even know Jiren's full power,and if you're going by the statement in where Whis says it's appear that Jiren is far from his full power,he's going off by how casually he's dealing with the spirit bomb with no effort,otherwise you would be saying Vegeta knows Jiren's full power in EP 123 going by how he also states he's not at full power. No I don't think Suppressed Jiren>Beerus.So when it came to Whis making the statement that Jiren was no diffing the U7 Spirit Bomb with no effort in which involves him saying "like a God of Destruction",he's not directly saying his suppressed state is at the G.o.D level,he's just saying Jiren is performing a feat in where a Heavily Suppressed G.o.D could do as well so nah,EP 109-110 Jiren ain't G.o.D tier,his full power ranges that tier and could even go to say even surpass that tier.

Knowing how strong a G.o.D=/=you know their full power,they would just need the basic understanding on how powerful they are otherwise you're would implying that Goku in the BOG would knew Beerus's full power just because Beerus said to him "I'll show you how terrifying a God of Destruction can be" suggesting that Beerus was going full power against SSJ3 Goku on those two hits but clearly he wasn't,this lead Goku to try to come up ways of finding to beat Beerus but couldn't which lead force him to test the power of SSJG or would be saying ROF Goku knows Beerus's full power just because Goku didn't wanna go for another round with Beerus when Beerus offered to fight both Goku and Vegeta

[TheSaiyanGod]

Of course.

No power up was stated at all.

The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.

Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.

ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.

Vegeta comment referred to there strongest form (ultimate gohan,ssj2 cabba,Kefla final stand, Vegeta ssjbe)
Goku was stated to be weakened multiple times during that fight with kefla and you can argue kefla was holding back in ssj and didn’t get to that level till she powered up
Goku holding his own against jiren means nothing considering jiren shut him down. And it’s no different when goku kept up with jiren during there first fight.

While Vegeta was giving his speech, the background scenes were illustrating the Saiyans breaking the limits. It wasn't just power ups through transformations since it shows Gohan using a Kamehameha against the U3 robots and Vegeta turning the tables on Toppo after being motivated by his promise. And this is basically generalizing all Saiyans during the tournament and their evolution

Kefla could barely get up after one punch, and had to take Goku by surprise to defeat him. She just increased her power when she turned into SSJ2
How does that mean nothing?

In EP 109, SSB Goku could barely trade punches with Jiren without being crushed next and needing to use Kaioken. In EP 123, SSB Goku took no hit from Jiren who was using more power than against UI Goku. You may think it's inconsistent, but it happened more than once, its not something isolated, and reinforces and implies that they get stronger

I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.

He was talking about Goku. He was explaining that he wanted to fuse with Goku's body to incorporate his sins (which would be that he had overcome the power of the gods, probably referring to the Kaioshins considering how surprised he was when Goku defeated him in U10)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At the very least, how strong do people have the base Saiyans now, excluding Goten and Trunks?

We know that Broly's base form is stronger than the Super Saiyan forms of the current relevant Saiyans, and that accomplishing this is quite the feat.

I'm not sure anyone can really say that the base Saiyans are as low as the Buu Arc Saiyans' base levels now.

[Block88]

The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.



ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.

Vegeta comment referred to there strongest form (ultimate gohan,ssj2 cabba,Kefla final stand, Vegeta ssjbe)
Goku was stated to be weakened multiple times during that fight with kefla and you can argue kefla was holding back in ssj and didn’t get to that level till she powered up
Goku holding his own against jiren means nothing considering jiren shut him down. And it’s no different when goku kept up with jiren during there first fight.

While Vegeta was giving his speech, the background scenes were illustrating the Saiyans breaking the limits. It wasn't just power ups through transformations since it shows Gohan using a Kamehameha against the U3 robots and Vegeta turning the tables on Toppo after being motivated by his promise. And this is basically generalizing all Saiyans during the tournament and their evolution

Kefla could barely get up after one punch, and had to take Goku by surprise to defeat him. She just increased her power when she turned into SSJ2
How does that mean nothing?

In EP 109, SSB Goku could barely trade punches with Jiren without being crushed next and needing to use Kaioken. In EP 123, SSB Goku took no hit from Jiren who was using more power than against UI Goku. You may think it's inconsistent, but it happened more than once, its not something isolated, and reinforces and implies that they get stronger

I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.

He was talking about Goku. He was explaining that he wanted to fuse with Goku's body to incorporate his sins (which would be that he had overcome the power of the gods, probably referring to the Kaioshins considering how surprised he was when Goku defeated him in U10)

Vegito is part goku and him referring to kaioshins means nothing considering they ants compared to GoD
In means nothing cause kefla powered up and one shotted him after that.
Vegeta statement was referring to how they got stronger in there new forms.
Jiren was beating up goku well before he powered up and only did so cause the latter nearly ringed him via tactics and scared goku outta of blue as soon he shot a casual normal punch against him.
Base goku was even taking attack’s from jiren and didn’t fall on the floor. So wat Base goku>ssjb?
Yeah no nothing but toei not wanting jiren tossing him out.

[Block88]

Shin statement really isn't vague,the next statement he goes to make pretty much states he was referring to his strength being above anything they face before,even Whis support his statements so Vegito Blue (FT arc) would pretty much get smacked around by the higher tiers in the T.o.P going by how he's comparable to Corrupted Merged Zamasu who wasn't low G.o.D tier character,let alone UIO Goku (Ep 110) level.Only Manga Vegito Blue would be G.o.D tier with the final kamehameha.

Nothing suggest Merged Zamasu knows the G.o.Ds true power and easily gets contradicted,the fact that U9 Kai goes on to make statement of SSJB Goku having power that "rivals" the gods would be suggesting that SSJB Goku rivals the G.o.Ds which is clearly wrong going by how that Goku doesn't even surpass Sidra.

different=/=stronger so yeah shin isn’t clear cut and shin not even the most reliable guy to go buy.
Whis statement was referring to jiren full power not the power he was displaying unless u think a Supressed jiren is >Beerus and Co. which makes the powerscaling even more fucked than it is.
Zamasu despite his ego shouldn’t be ignorant on how strong a GoD is given he and black avoided them during there genocide run.

So you basically just ignore after the second statement he makes by saying "He's strong,PLAIN and SIMPLE" clearly suggesting he was talking about his power being a different level then the previous foes,also if we really were to say Jiren's power being "different" wasn't talking about strength wise different then what different could he be talking about? Jiren's ki is literally just mortal ki,there's really not anything unique about it,so I don't see why he would be talking about anything else besides strength wise difference,that would only thing that would make sense in his statement. Also using the Shin isn't a reliable guy excuse doesn't work all the time,he's literally comparing Heavily Suppressed Jiren's ki to Corrputed Merged Zamasu's ki,how can you screw that up?



Whis doesn't know Jiren's full power,the fact he goes to now to believe that the rumor is now true of a mortal surpassing his own G.o.D and goes to claim of saying "perhaps he even surpassed it" showing he doesn't even know Jiren's full power,and if you're going by the statement in where Whis says it's appear that Jiren is far from his full power,he's going off by how casually he's dealing with the spirit bomb with no effort,otherwise you would be saying Vegeta knows Jiren's full power in EP 123 going by how he also states he's not at full power. No I don't think Suppressed Jiren>Beerus.So when it came to Whis making the statement that Jiren was no diffing the U7 Spirit Bomb with no effort in which involves him saying "like a God of Destruction",he's not directly saying his suppressed state is at the G.o.D level,he's just saying Jiren is performing a feat in where a Heavily Suppressed G.o.D could do as well so nah,EP 109-110 Jiren ain't G.o.D tier,his full power ranges that tier and could even go to say even surpass that tier.

Knowing how strong a G.o.D=/=you know their full power,they would just need the basic understanding on how powerful they are otherwise you're would implying that Goku in the BOG would knew Beerus's full power just because Beerus said to him "I'll show you how terrifying a God of Destruction can be" suggesting that Beerus was going full power against SSJ3 Goku on those two hits but clearly he wasn't,this lead Goku to try to come up ways of finding to beat Beerus but couldn't which lead force him to test the power of SSJG or would be saying ROF Goku knows Beerus's full power just because Goku didn't wanna go for another round with Beerus when Beerus offered to fight both Goku and Vegeta

What Shin says is: 「この力、今までのどの相手とも感覚が違います。強い…ただひたすらに。」"This power feels different from any other opponent we've faced up until now. He's strong, plain and simple."

The key word here is 感覚 (かんかく) which translates to feeling/sensation. Shin simply stresses the fact that Jiren's power feels a certain kind of way due to his strength.
And even if I agree with the statement vegito isn’t Zamasu nor was an enemy they fought.
So once again different =/=stronger and now let’s go to whis
Whis pointed how goku was giving it his all while jiren was far from full power telling jiren was far from full throttle.
He's strong, plain and simple"
Whis in response: "Dare I say, like a God of Destruction perhaps even surpassed it"
Whis wouldn’t bother to say that regarding jiren strength if he didn’t know where exactly he was sitting at in strength.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegito is part goku and him referring to kaioshins means nothing considering they ants compared to GoD
In means nothing cause kefla powered up and one shotted him after that.
Vegeta statement was referring to how they got stronger in there new forms.
Jiren was beating up goku well before he powered up and only did so cause the latter nearly ringed him via tactics and scared goku outta of blue as soon he shot a casual normal punch against him.
Base goku was even taking attack’s from jiren and didn’t fall on the floor. So wat Base goku>ssjb?
Yeah no nothing but toei not wanting jiren tossing him out.

- No, note the context. Vegetto says that Zamasu is no longer immortal because he chose to merge with a human (Goku). So Zamasu replies that this is what he wanted, because Goku committed the sin of overcoming the gods and he wanted to embody that sin. Just remember how surprised Zamasu was when SSJ2 Goku was defeating him because he was '' just a human '', regardless of whether the Kaioshins are ants to the GoDs, a human who has overcome them is unforgivable. Basically, Zamasu was talking about Goku overcoming the gods, not Vegetto.

- Beerus said that Goku would have to end the fight against Kefla in the next attack, so Goku fires a Kamehameha (implying that this was the only strength left to him) and then Kefla takes advantage of the fact that he is tired and takes him by surprise. That's just why she defeats him

- Vegeta gave all that speech to show Vermouth that it was not impossible for Goku to master the UI, because the Saiyans got extremely strong in a very limited period of time, it's not just new transformations.

- Goku also powered up before facing Powered Up Jiren, so he can hold his own and only loses the fight when Jiren first uses a hint of his true power (It's a "normal punch" from a seriusJiren, this is very different)
These are totally different situations, in EP 123 Jiren showed a power he had never used before in ToP and fought using that power, while in EP 128 he was just pushing an exhausted Goku out.
In EP 127, the power that Vegeta showed after defeating Toppo also made Jiren finally get serious, that's a whole different level from EP 110 Jiren, you can't deny that.

No.

That Vegeta scene is about them breaking their limits by gaining new transformations (Cabba with SS2), improving ones they had already (SSBE and UI) or fusing (Kefla).

So again, no statement exist that they actually got stronger in base. That FF scene you mentioned is about Vegeta increasing the amp of the attack by breaking his limits.

As you just said, it's a scene about Saiyans getting stronger, regardless of the reason. This includes everything the Saiyans did on ToP because that's what Vegeta is talking about for Vermouth.

Piccolo literally says that the fact that Jiren provoked Vegeta's pride caused him to awaken a sleeping power in him. So we have Vermouth and Zeno impressed with how Vegeta can improve so quickly. And the fact that Goku / Vegeta at the end of the tournament can stand up to the enemy (at the height of power until that moment) while before they could not against the same enemy (much more suppressed) is proof that they got stronger. I am not saying that both have completely changed the level but definitely got stronger

[Koitsukai]

Quick question: is SSBlue a SS God that went SS, or is it a SS with the ki of a god? I may not be as clear as I would, but you can tell the difference. I hope.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Quick question: is SSBlue a SS God that went SS, or is it a SS with the ki of a god? I may not be as clear as I would, but you can tell the difference. I hope.

It kinda seems like both. SSB seems to be when a Saiyan can combine their SS and SSG forms into the next stage, being better in every way besides stamina.

In this sense, it's kinda like SS4, which itself comes about from Oozaru and SS combining. It's also like SS Full-Power, which comes about b combining Oozaru-based Ikari and SS.

In essence, SSB seems like a hybrid form created by combining 2 separate unrelated forms. SSGs don't necessarily need to be Super Saiyans, and Super Saiyans don't necessarily become SSGs.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Do you think SSJ Broly is stronger than SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku?

I’m not sure, but perhaps he isn’t.

Spoiler:

This is the only thing I’ve found to compare them. It’s from Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Z Power-up of Different Dimension (11th set of Bandai Wafer Stickers).

I see a lot of people using these stickers in power discussions. Are they really accurate and can be used for comparisons?

And yet, do you have any Kefla SSJ2 stickers? I think it would be interesting to know how she is classified

Quick question: is SSBlue a SS God that went SS, or is it a SS with the ki of a god? I may not be as clear as I would, but you can tell the difference. I hope.

Some games (as DBX2 and DB Fusions) classify SSB as an SSG transformed into SSJ. But in DBS (and some RoF promotional materials) they just say it's Saiyan that obtained the power of SSG and then turned into SSJ.

Particularly, I also believe that in fact it is the fusion of the two forms. Not an SSJ that uses God Ki, nor an SSG that transforms into SSJ, it is the junction of these two types of Ki that creates a new divine transformation.

[kaiowhatmaster]

different=/=stronger so yeah shin isn’t clear cut and shin not even the most reliable guy to go buy.
Whis statement was referring to jiren full power not the power he was displaying unless u think a Supressed jiren is >Beerus and Co. which makes the powerscaling even more fucked than it is.
Zamasu despite his ego shouldn’t be ignorant on how strong a GoD is given he and black avoided them during there genocide run.

So you basically just ignore after the second statement he makes by saying "He's strong,PLAIN and SIMPLE" clearly suggesting he was talking about his power being a different level then the previous foes,also if we really were to say Jiren's power being "different" wasn't talking about strength wise different then what different could he be talking about? Jiren's ki is literally just mortal ki,there's really not anything unique about it,so I don't see why he would be talking about anything else besides strength wise difference,that would only thing that would make sense in his statement. Also using the Shin isn't a reliable guy excuse doesn't work all the time,he's literally comparing Heavily Suppressed Jiren's ki to Corrputed Merged Zamasu's ki,how can you screw that up?



Whis doesn't know Jiren's full power,the fact he goes to now to believe that the rumor is now true of a mortal surpassing his own G.o.D and goes to claim of saying "perhaps he even surpassed it" showing he doesn't even know Jiren's full power,and if you're going by the statement in where Whis says it's appear that Jiren is far from his full power,he's going off by how casually he's dealing with the spirit bomb with no effort,otherwise you would be saying Vegeta knows Jiren's full power in EP 123 going by how he also states he's not at full power. No I don't think Suppressed Jiren>Beerus.So when it came to Whis making the statement that Jiren was no diffing the U7 Spirit Bomb with no effort in which involves him saying "like a God of Destruction",he's not directly saying his suppressed state is at the G.o.D level,he's just saying Jiren is performing a feat in where a Heavily Suppressed G.o.D could do as well so nah,EP 109-110 Jiren ain't G.o.D tier,his full power ranges that tier and could even go to say even surpass that tier.

Knowing how strong a G.o.D=/=you know their full power,they would just need the basic understanding on how powerful they are otherwise you're would implying that Goku in the BOG would knew Beerus's full power just because Beerus said to him "I'll show you how terrifying a God of Destruction can be" suggesting that Beerus was going full power against SSJ3 Goku on those two hits but clearly he wasn't,this lead Goku to try to come up ways of finding to beat Beerus but couldn't which lead force him to test the power of SSJG or would be saying ROF Goku knows Beerus's full power just because Goku didn't wanna go for another round with Beerus when Beerus offered to fight both Goku and Vegeta

What Shin says is: 「この力、今までのどの相手とも感覚が違います。強い…ただひたすらに。」"This power feels different from any other opponent we've faced up until now. He's strong, plain and simple."

The key word here is 感覚 (かんかく) which translates to feeling/sensation. Shin simply stresses the fact that Jiren's power feels a certain kind of way due to his strength.
And even if I agree with the statement vegito isn’t Zamasu nor was an enemy they fought.
So once again different =/=stronger and now let’s go to whis
Whis pointed how goku was giving it his all while jiren was far from full power telling jiren was far from full throttle.
He's strong, plain and simple"
Whis in response: "Dare I say, like a God of Destruction perhaps even surpassed it"
Whis wouldn’t bother to say that regarding jiren strength if he didn’t know where exactly he was sitting at in strength.

I'm well aware of what Shin said,the problem is you're just misinterpreting,the scene was literally designed to talk about how strong Jiren was,not on what type ki is like there was nothing unique about it,the fact they don't even give some kind of description suggest they can't be talking about the quality of his ki,it's only the strength of his ki hence why he followed up with "he's strong,plain and simple.", Jiren's power was on a different level.

Doesn't matter if Vegito isn't Merged Zamasu,Merged Zamasu was comparable to Vegito Blue to where you can even say Merged Zamasu got stronger than Vegito at one point due to tanking the final kamehameha,even if you don't accept this feat,Vegito Blue was barely above Merged Zamasu and Heavily Suppressed Jiren can bullied Merged Zamasu while Vegito Blue was struggling with him. Just as I figured,you're going off the statement of Whis saying Jiren "is far from his full power",again Whis only makes that statement because he's seeing how casual Jiren is handling Goku,does Vegeta knew Jiren's full power just because he say he's not at full power?

>Like I said before,Whis wasn't directly stating Heavily Suppressed Jiren power was at G.o.D range,he performed a feat something a Heavily Suppressed G.o.D could do,this lead to Whis estimating his full power to be at G.o.D level

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/08/27/o ... nal-video/

https://prnt.sc/okyrco

And just so to prevent ad nauseam,a more clear direct statement goes on state Jiren from EP 109-110 is stronger than Merged Zamasu who once again was comparable to Vegito Blue

[ZombieVito]

As you just said, it's a scene about Saiyans getting stronger, regardless of the reason. This includes everything the Saiyans did on ToP because that's what Vegeta is talking about for Vermouth.

Piccolo literally says that the fact that Jiren provoked Vegeta's pride caused him to awaken a sleeping power in him. So we have Vermouth and Zeno impressed with how Vegeta can improve so quickly. And the fact that Goku / Vegeta at the end of the tournament can stand up to the enemy (at the height of power until that moment) while before they could not against the same enemy (much more suppressed) is proof that they got stronger. I am not saying that both have completely changed the level but definitely got stronger

Well have to agree to disagree then.

I have seen the entire tournament over 3 times and never seen a clear cut confirmation they got stronger besides in their UI and SSBE forms.

[Miracles]

Quick question: is SSBlue a SS God that went SS, or is it a SS with the ki of a god? I may not be as clear as I would, but you can tell the difference. I hope.

For accuracy, the former; Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan God's, Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

I see a lot of people using these stickers in power discussions. Are they really accurate and can be used for comparisons?

And yet, do you have any Kefla SSJ2 stickers? I think it would be interesting to know how she is classified.

They are most of time accurate. Sometimes, they have questionable numbers, like 5 out of over 200. I think they can be used for discussion.

Spoiler:

First one comes from 7th set and the second from 8th set. SSBlue with kaioken below..

Spoiler:

[TheSaiyanGod]

As you just said, it's a scene about Saiyans getting stronger, regardless of the reason. This includes everything the Saiyans did on ToP because that's what Vegeta is talking about for Vermouth.

Piccolo literally says that the fact that Jiren provoked Vegeta's pride caused him to awaken a sleeping power in him. So we have Vermouth and Zeno impressed with how Vegeta can improve so quickly. And the fact that Goku / Vegeta at the end of the tournament can stand up to the enemy (at the height of power until that moment) while before they could not against the same enemy (much more suppressed) is proof that they got stronger. I am not saying that both have completely changed the level but definitely got stronger

Well have to agree to disagree then.

I have seen the entire tournament over 3 times and never seen a clear cut confirmation they got stronger besides in their UI and SSBE forms.

Right, just one question, why do you think corrupted Zamasu is above UIO Goku (1st and 2nd appearance), GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta?

[ZombieVito]

Right, just one question, why do you think corrupted Zamasu is above UIO Goku (1st and 2nd appearance), GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta?

Because he rivaled Vegetto Blue, who I don't think is that far below SSB Gogeta from the Broly movie.

[Miracles]

I see a lot of people using these stickers in power discussions. Are they really accurate and can be used for comparisons?

And yet, do you have any Kefla SSJ2 stickers? I think it would be interesting to know how she is classified.

They are most of time accurate. Sometimes, they have questionable numbers, like 5 out of over 200. I think they can be used for discussion.

Spoiler:

First one comes from 7th set and the second from 8th set. SSBlue with kaioken below..

Spoiler:

Does that say 8800 or 8600 for BlueKK?

[Kenneth La Torre]

we are in a point where only toriyama knows how strong these characters are. i feel like we will never come to a conclusion with how little info we have on their power. how can you scale two major antagonist when they both see ssb level opponents as mosquitos when at their best?

[Xeogran]

we are in a point where only toriyama knows how strong these characters are. i feel like we will never come to a conclusion with how little info we have on their power. how can you scale two major antagonist when they both see ssb level opponents as mosquitos when at their best?

The manga is much more consistent, so I'd just use that as basis. Zamasu wasn't as absurdly OP in there.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Right, just one question, why do you think corrupted Zamasu is above UIO Goku (1st and 2nd appearance), GoD Toppo and SSBE Vegeta?

Because he rivaled Vegetto Blue, who I don't think is that far below SSB Gogeta from the Broly movie.

I think we really have to agree to disagree.

But I just wanted to say that rivaling doesn't mean being on the same level (exhibition match is a proof), and Merged Zamasu (FP) was clearly below Vegetto and Supressed Jiren

we are in a point where only toriyama knows how strong these characters are. i feel like we will never come to a conclusion with how little info we have on their power. how can you scale two major antagonist when they both see ssb level opponents as mosquitos when at their best?

Maybe not even Toriyama. In his original draft, only two SSB would be enough to defeat Merged Zamasu, implying that Zamasu and Black would be ridiculously weak compared to SSB Goku and Vegeta (in fact they were, but only if we consider Mastered SSB).

But then we have both anime and manga showing totally different power levels for Zamasu. So we begin to separate each media and we can't even define Toriyama's word as the true one. There are several confusing and inconsistent situations.