Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I found some interesting stickers of this new set scattered on the internet (some numbers are unreadable but we can get updates). Unfortunately, I can’t translate its name, so someone might want to help me out.

Spoiler:

[PFM18]

I found some interesting stickers of this new set scattered on the internet (some numbers are unreadable but we can get updates). Unfortunately, I can’t translate its name, so someone might want to help me out.

Spoiler:

It has SSJ Broly<SSB Goku/Vegeta? That's just downright wrong

[Champa The Destroyer]

I found some interesting stickers of this new set scattered on the internet (some numbers are unreadable but we can get updates). Unfortunately, I can’t translate its name, so someone might want to help me out.

Spoiler:

As PFM said, it's a bit odd that they have SSB Goku and Vegeta above SS Broly. It's pretty interesting though that they have Full Power Belly equal to MUI Goku and Gogeta above MUI Goku (which both I probably agree with, though I would have to watch Broly more before making an accurate judgement).

[Hugo Boss]

It has SSJ Broly<SSB Goku/Vegeta? That's just downright wrong

I agree with you on that, but what’s your point? In a older set Pissed Broly had 7,000 while SSG Goku and Vegeta had bigger numbers.

Edit: Most of stickers including Freeza Arc stuff

[PFM18]

It has SSJ Broly<SSB Goku/Vegeta? That's just downright wrong

I agree with you on that, but what’s your point? In a older set Pissed Broly had 7,000 while SSG Goku and Vegeta had bigger numbers.

Edit: Most of stickers including Freeza Arc stuff

I guess my point is that it's wrong so maybe we shouldn't use it.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Here is the final and updated version of DBS:Broly's power scaling for the fights (mainly for Broly) by me.

Spoiler:

In my opinion, when Broly powered up in his base form, he got triple as strong each time. I am saying this because, in order to comprehend the power-up itself, we have to determine what was Broly's power initially.

First things first, Broly powered-up in his Base 5 times, prior transforming into his Wrathful State. Subsequently, he got three times as strong with each power-up. Initially, he was below Vegeta's Base and powered up to match with him (×3) and probably surpass him in power, yet Vegeta's experience (backed by Goku's statements later on) gave him the upper hand.

Then, he powered up again (×3) and overpowered Base Vegeta, forcing him into his Super Saiyan State (around 75% of a Super Saiyan's power), hense overwhelming Broly. Then, Broly powered-up again (×3) to push back SSJ Vegeta, who had control of the fight, knocking Broly around, despite his increase in strength, ultimately being instantly overpowered by the Prince. Then, he powered up again (×3) and was on par, or even more powerful than Vegeta (3×27=71 times his original Base) whether Vegeta didn't reveive any considerable power-ups in the fight to counter for Broly's extreme development, however Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. Lastly, he powered-up by indicating hints of his Wrathful state and was too strong for Super Vegeta. (3×71=213 times his original Base, greater than SSJ2 by two times).

This forced Vegeta into using the Super Saiyan God form. I have a theory as to how strong this transformation makes the user, but I will try to not use my headcannon here. Anyway, Vegeta was unfathomably stronger than Broly at this point, with the latter powering up once more (×3) in hope of defeating God Vegeta. As such, Broly's initial power, which fell below even to Base Vegeta, is now on a level of 600+ times stronger (639), which would explain of course that even on a level above SSJ3 it isn't easy to compete with God, but it is the only way to hope for some damage. Now this is some epic power boost in just a few minutes. I mean, we kinda get that with the other Saiyans too, considering that in the ToP Goku and Vegeta got at least 20 times stronger in their Base forms, however, Broly's performance is peak Saiyan.

Back to the point, Broly suffered a crippling defeat at the hands of God Vegeta, hense his Saiyans instincts went crazy, which trigerred his "transformation" into the Wrathful state. My guess is that the Wrathful State has 2 stages. The one that Broly used against God Vegeta was the one which encompassed the true power of a Great Ape, as stated by Paragus. As such, his power multiplied by 10 times, which is what is widely accepted as the Great Ape's multiplier. While also powering up a little more, he gained this massive power boost, which elevated him in an entirely new level, in comparison to Goku and Vegeta. His ×2.5 SSJ3 comparable Base, was now multiplied by 10 and gave result to a being with nearly the power of a SSJG. Although Vegeta put some effort, I believe that he was suprised by Broly and thus didn't use his full God power. He would, should the fight wasn't interupted by Goku, who wanted to face off against Broly. Vegeta was unscathed by the confrontation, but he experienced the power of a "Great Ape" Broly.

Regarding the two stages of Wrathful, when Goku prepared to fight the legendary Saiyan (if he is even supposed to be one anymore), Broly didn't stay on the same level. He clearly understood that he would need more power if he were to compete against the two Saiyans with the god forms. Subsequently, he began buffing even more and unlocked the second stage of the Wrathful state, which looks more muscular, with spiky hair and a more powerful aura, in comparison to his original Wrathful state which simply looked like a super fully-powered Base form. This "second" stage looks more like the A-type Super Saiyan (perhaps a homage to the original) rather than a Great Ape in Base. If so, then by unavoidably using my headcannon for the form of the A-type SSJ, the 2nd Wrathful state has a multiplier twice that of a Great Ape (slightly more to be exact for sake of calculating). This translates into Broly gaining a ×2.5 boost upon facing with Goku (as I said, instead of ×2 we need the ×2.5 as it is a better number and besides the similar-looking A-type SSJ was a manifestation of a SSJ's power, so it had to be at least half as powerful). Total result: 639×20=12.780

When against Goku, Broly is clearly on an advantage, with Base Goku being overwhelmed by Broly (unlike Vegeta, who didn't wait to be fully overwhelmed himself to power-up) and with him going SSJ but still having problems. However, Goku DID use way more power as a Super Saiyan God than Vegeta, as he was already experiencing a new power from Broly, instead of gradually learning his strentgh like Vegeta, who opted to "go with the flow". As such, God Goku, using his techniques as well, was too strong even for a Stage 2 Wrathful Broly. However, Broly received a temporary rage boost which helped him overpower Goku's technique and due to his adaptibility, he used the same technique on Goku, catching him by suprise. I doubt that this boost was a very great one, but Goku went back at full God mode to counter Broly, yet Broly powered-up again and this time he got a significant boost, allowing him to be on greately stronger than God Goku. This must have been a (×2) boost, for him to tank God Goku's attacks which previously stopped him. But then he received ANOTHER power-up of the same scale (×2) and with Goku losing his footing, Broly went berserk on him. Total result: 4×12.780=51.120

After this beat down and a chat with Piccolo, Goku decided that it was the time for the big guns, meaning Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. I won't say a thing about what I believe of Blue's power, but it would make sense. No headcannon though, remember? XD Anyway, this fight has no power-ups for Broly. He is clearly on his "limit" and he is just utilizing 100% of what he can offer, while at the same time sharpening his skills, abilities, techniques, reflexes and instincts with Goku. Even if Broly overpowered God Goku, he doesn't do the same with Blue Goku. The more time passes the easier it is to understand that Goku isn't using his absolute full power as Blue. Perhaps Broly is on a level of roughly 80% Blue which would be the perfect evidence as to how Goku had to put a decent fight early on against Broly, but later on (after unlocking Blue's full potential) he understood that Broly didn't power-up more. You can see that even Vegeta was later questioning why Goku couldn't finish off Broly, indicating that he had the power to do so.

Then, everything changed. Freeza killed Paragus and Broly went beast mode. He transformed into a C-type Super Saiyan, while powering-up AT THE SAME TIME!!! His (×2) power-up still applies, but he also gets a multiplier for his new form. C-type SSJ is what I believe a manifestation of the "Legendary" or actually Full Power Super Saiyan's power, itself. As such, Broly would get 2 times stronger in his overall power and then another 2 times stronger due to his new form. This would also explain why Goku and Vegeta as SSJBs weren't able to damage him a lot (evidence of Broly tanking their attacks, suggesting that he was at least 2 times stronger than the sum of their power), but with them not being beat down like God Goku was. Fusion was the answer now. Total result: 2×2×51.120=204.480

Gogeta's Base should at least be at SSJG level, as he did fairly good against C-type Broly, but ultimately decided to go SSJ himself to fend off against the now massive (for some reason, lol) opponent. As a Super Saiyan Gogeta has the upper hand, when entering the other dimension, Broly unlocks his final form. The Full Power Super Saiyan. He gets a final ×2 increase in strentgh as he now utilizes 100% of his SSJ power. He takes Super Gogeta by suprise and he answers with Blue. The fight is one-sided from now on. At the last moment after being pummeled, Broly recovers some of his strength, but fails to do anything and Gogeta goes for the kill. The rest you know.

To summarize, Broly received 5 power-ups in Base (×3 times boost), 2 in his Wrathful state (×2 times boost) and 1 in his C-type SSJ (another ×2 times boost). His multipliers are the following:

Stage 1 Wrathful= ×10 Base (Great Ape Mode)
Stage 2 Wrathful= ×25 Base (A-type SSJ Mode)
C-type Super Saiyan= ×50 Base
Full Power Super Saiyan= ×100 Base

Come to think of it, after doing all this, I can too see the similarities between Full Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 4. Nonetheless, this is still a new concept. Something that we have seen before, but was retconned. I like it the way it is. If "Great Ape" Broly was a 10 and his C-type was a 50 (although it is different than the Golden Great Ape, it is essentially the "same"). Then FP SSJ is twice as strong, which itself has led me to change my headcannon about SSJ4 by doubling his strength compared to GGA.

This places Broly's Base power in that of above 2.5× SSJ3s and if he retained his power-ups from the transformations, he would be nearly at the level of 12× SSJ3s, in comparison to his original Base Form. I think that such power is a bit too much though, so the first one sounds more realistic.

This is how I view DBS: Broly's power scaling and I think that it is consistent and besides, this is Broly we are talking about.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I don't really know where people are getting so many power-ups for Broly from.

Based on what I saw, there were fewer and more distinct boosts. The first when Broly took SS Vegeta's punch and then started to gain the upperhand, the second when he raged out and used his Oozaru power against SSG Vegeta, the third when he powered up in his Ikari form to fight Goku, the fourth when he turned Super Saiyan on top of Ikari, and the fifth and final one when he powered up against SS Gogeta.

[Grand Marshal 1]

You know, I don't really know where people are getting so many power-ups for Broly from.

Based on what I saw, there were fewer and more distinct boosts. The first when Broly took SS Vegeta's punch and then started to gain the upperhand, the second when he raged out and used his Oozaru power against SSG Vegeta, the third when he powered up in his Ikari form to fight Goku, the fourth when he turned Super Saiyan on top of Ikari, and the fifth and final one when he powered up against SS Gogeta.

Personally, whenever Broly's aura (in Base at least) appeared, there was a comment from Vegeta, a certain move or some kind of indication that Broly got stronger. Too many power-ups, I know, but still it would only be natural for Broly who has been growing strong all these years and now he can unleash his power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I don't really know where people are getting so many power-ups for Broly from.

Based on what I saw, there were fewer and more distinct boosts. The first when Broly took SS Vegeta's punch and then started to gain the upperhand, the second when he raged out and used his Oozaru power against SSG Vegeta, the third when he powered up in his Ikari form to fight Goku, the fourth when he turned Super Saiyan on top of Ikari, and the fifth and final one when he powered up against SS Gogeta.

Personally, whenever Broly's aura (in Base at least) appeared, there was a comment from Vegeta, a certain move or some kind of indication that Broly got stronger. Too many power-ups, I know, but still it would only be natural for Broly who has been growing strong all these years and now he can unleash his power.

Personally, I never saw that. To me, before Vegeta went SS, it looked more like Broly was getting a better handle on how to properly fight, which is supported by Freeza's comments.

To me, base Broly was exactly equal to base Vegeta and Goku but was learning how to fight better as he fought Vegeta. Vegeta is the kind of guy who doesn't do well against peer opponents most of the time, so he went Super Saiyan to overpower Broly. It's when Broly fights him and displays hints of his Oozaru potential that I think he got his first ACTUAL boost in strength.

Simply showing an aura hasn't been indicative of specifically increasing battle power past what one previously displayed as normal beyond this first instance in my opinion, including the later fights where Broly showcases dramatic aura flaring against Gogeta.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess my point is that it's wrong so maybe we shouldn't use it.

So, we shouldn’t use the whole set because one sticker is wrong?

Anyway, the sticker in which Goku and Vegeta are together with 9,000 and Gogeta’s with 9,700 seems to belong to another set.

[Grand Marshal 1]

You know, I don't really know where people are getting so many power-ups for Broly from.

Based on what I saw, there were fewer and more distinct boosts. The first when Broly took SS Vegeta's punch and then started to gain the upperhand, the second when he raged out and used his Oozaru power against SSG Vegeta, the third when he powered up in his Ikari form to fight Goku, the fourth when he turned Super Saiyan on top of Ikari, and the fifth and final one when he powered up against SS Gogeta.

Personally, whenever Broly's aura (in Base at least) appeared, there was a comment from Vegeta, a certain move or some kind of indication that Broly got stronger. Too many power-ups, I know, but still it would only be natural for Broly who has been growing strong all these years and now he can unleash his power.

Personally, I never saw that. To me, before Vegeta went SS, it looked more like Broly was getting a better handle on how to properly fight, which is supported by Freeza's comments.

To me, base Broly was exactly equal to base Vegeta and Goku but was learning how to fight better as he fought Vegeta. Vegeta is the kind of guy who doesn't do well against peer opponents most of the time, so he went Super Saiyan to overpower Broly. It's when Broly fights him and displays hints of his Oozaru potential that I think he got his first ACTUAL boost in strength.

Simply showing an aura hasn't been indicative of specifically increasing battle power past what one previously displayed as normal beyond this first instance in my opinion, including the later fights where Broly showcases dramatic aura flaring against Gogeta.

I agree with the last part. That is why I didnt count every single "aura burst" as a power-up. I tried really hard to find what was needed. And of course someone (especially Broly) would learn more as he fighted more. It is only natural.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I guess my point is that it's wrong so maybe we shouldn't use it.

So, we shouldn’t use the whole set because one sticker is wrong?

Anyway, the sticker in which Goku and Vegeta are together with 9,000 and Gogeta’s with 9,700 seems to belong to another set.

No. It's actually from the same set. U I Goku, gogeta, and broly (from the picture above) come from the set W11.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I guess my point is that it's wrong so maybe we shouldn't use it.

So, we shouldn’t use the whole set because one sticker is wrong?

Anyway, the sticker in which Goku and Vegeta are together with 9,000 and Gogeta’s with 9,700 seems to belong to another set.

No. It's actually from the same set. U I Goku, gogeta, and broly (from the picture above) come from the set W11.

To add on, they three are sticker you peel to reveal the stronger variant. Peel omen to get UI, peel Goku and vegeta to get gogeta, peel ssj broly to get FP ssj broly

[Miracles]

I've seen some people claim Broly's "growth is limitless." That's just wrong. It's the same mistake a lot of people made with Hit. Broly had limits in each mode...His base limit was Super Saiyan level, Oozaru form was Blue level, Super Saiyan was way above Blue, His Legendary form was enough to force a Goku and Vegeta fusion to use full power Blue. Then he had nothing left, reaching his limit against Gogeta.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I've seen some people claim Broly's "growth is limitless." That's just wrong. It's the same mistake a lot of people made with Hit. Broly had limits in each mode...His base limit was Super Saiyan level, Oozaru form was Blue level, Super Saiyan was way above Blue, His Legendary form was enough to force a Goku and Vegeta fusion to use full power Blue. Then he had nothing left, reaching his limit against Gogeta.

Indeed!!! I think that Broly can't get stronger than his FPSSJ. He is already at the realm of gods. He just found this power, so until he masters it, I dou bt that he will be able to pull feats like these. Perhaps he will get an increase in his Base (which will be his prefered form to fight with). He could use a tip from Gohan though

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've seen some people claim Broly's "growth is limitless." That's just wrong. It's the same mistake a lot of people made with Hit. Broly had limits in each mode...His base limit was Super Saiyan level, Oozaru form was Blue level, Super Saiyan was way above Blue, His Legendary form was enough to force a Goku and Vegeta fusion to use full power Blue. Then he had nothing left, reaching his limit against Gogeta.

Indeed!!! I think that Broly can't get stronger than his FPSSJ. He is already at the realm of gods. He just found this power, so until he masters it, I dou bt that he will be able to pull feats like these. Perhaps he will get an increase in his Base (which will be his prefered form to fight with). He could use a tip from Gohan though

Pretty much. While his ceiling is a lot higher than Goku or Vegeta's due to that Oozaru potential, he still has a ceiling he hits that he only overcomes through a new form. If he can gain God Ki and infuse his Oozaru power into those, THEN he can surpass his current limits with new forms.

Right now, though, he's capped off at just below current SSB Fusion.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I don't see a cap for him yet, especially since Goku and vegeta don't have one and broly is basically a God of saiyan potential. If it were any other enemy, then yeah, but this is a saiyan. Saiyans and limits don't go well together.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't see a cap for him yet, especially since Goku and vegeta don't have one and broly is basically a God of saiyan potential. If it were any other enemy, then yeah, but this is a saiyan. Saiyans and limits don't go well together.

I mean obviously, there's no limit to how much stronger they CAN get.

We're just talking about at the immediate moment in the fights they've been in. Currently, everyone is at a stable level they haven't flown past yet.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I don't see a cap for him yet, especially since Goku and vegeta don't have one and broly is basically a God of saiyan potential. If it were any other enemy, then yeah, but this is a saiyan. Saiyans and limits don't go well together.

I mean obviously, there's no limit to how much stronger they CAN get.

We're just talking about at the immediate moment in the fights they've been in. Currently, everyone is at a stable level they haven't flown past yet.

Exactly. The events of DBS: Broly probably gave Broly the power he needed, but since Goku and Vegeta didn't really seem to gain any new powers (they simply went 100% against Broly) and with them using Fusion, I doubt that a "Post-Broly Goku or Vegeta" would be much different to a "Pre-Broly Goku or Vegeta". The ToP is the perfect example of the polar opposite.

At least, that is how I view it.

[PFM18]

I guess my point is that it's wrong so maybe we shouldn't use it.

So, we shouldn’t use the whole set because one sticker is wrong?

Anyway, the sticker in which Goku and Vegeta are together with 9,000 and Gogeta’s with 9,700 seems to belong to another set.

The stickers have proven themselves to be inaccurate so we shouldn't trust them. There's several examples of this.