Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

I don't think Jiren's different aura is a valid argument.
What would be the point of Shin saying that? what does that even mean? Shin and his statement are there to tell us how strong Jiren is, not that his ki is different (that his ki is different is never brought up again or even implied at all).
Jiren just casually stepped on SSBKKx20 Goku's balls, and now he is deflecting with his fucking eyes a genki dama sent by SSBKKx20. Thinking Shin was talking about something else than power makes no sense at all. He even closes his deposition with HE IS STRONG, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Whis picks it up and compares him with hakaishin power.
I think people read too much into things that, like Shin said, are plain and simple.

I will repeat this again "Gogeta mostly dodged Broly's attacks while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta traded blows with Broly", but this time, I will also provide visual aid.

Goku and Vegeta hold their own against Broly before distracting him with Freeza and escaping

Perhaps it's because I'm the only one who re-watches the movie every couple of weeks like an insane person, but it really seems like I'm in the minority here who doesn't believe Base Gogeta > the Super Saiyan Blues.

I don't think you are alone here. I re-watched it lately in slo-mo and noticed Goku and Vegeta keep hitting SS Broly and dodging his counter-attacks, they keep moving away from him and Broly can't grab them. It's really hard to see at normal speed but they do seem more agile than Broly. They even go into a big ball of dust and light when Broly goes in with his two ki-balls that negated the KHH and the FF, and come out of it unscathered.

[ZombieVito]

Yes. For all intentions and purposes, Merged Zamasu was up there. In the ToP scale, somewhere below 1st Omen Goku and Supressed Jiren. Ofc Vegito being above him.

I personally don't have Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu under even 2nd Omen Goku.

While his normal Corrupted form I do have under Kefla, GoD Toppo and the rest.

Interesting take.

So how do you think that Supressed Jiren's power being 'the strongest ever felt' mixes into this? I would assume it is in direct comparison to at least Giant Corrupted Merged Zamasu, since Infinite Zamasu was an non-corporeal entity.

Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu isn't his normal power. He's overclocking his normal power so I don't take it into consideration. Same as SSG3 Trunks or Buffed Perfect Cell weren't taken into consideration when discussing 50% Goku after he left the RoSaT.

Or Shin simply meant that Jiren's Ki had a different feel to it like other posters have said.

[Miracles]

Base Gogeta's feats do not separate him from Blue Goku's feats. Can't tell which is stronger.

We are in god realm of power in the TOP arc. A new level of power. No way is Merged Zamas stronger than Jiren.

The story's plot does matter.

[Lionel]

Technically, the whole "god realm" of power thing has been existent since mid to late Dragon Ball. Karin and Kami would have qualified, right? Every single Z-warrior, even Yajirobe, surpassed them. It's at around King Kai and Shin where you begin to see fighters being checked off from the ascendancy list.

[Sadala Elite]

These are bad arguments. The fact that Base Gogeta could causally parry and defend against SSJ1 Broly at all is proof that he was stronger than normal SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Except that argument is worse than the one I made, there is no "proof".
Gogeta isn't the only one who parried Broly's Ki attacks, he deflected like two before transforming, while SSB Goku deflects a whole bunch of them.

I will repeat this again "Gogeta mostly dodged Broly's attacks while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta traded blows with Broly", but this time, I will also provide visual aid.

Goku and Vegeta hold their own against Broly before distracting him with Freeza and escaping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMu3WCt662o
Time stamp - 1:28

Base Gogeta literally doing less than what Goku and Vegeta could do, and transforming into Super Saiyan to outclass Broly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehvY__pLYY
Time stamp - 1:01

Perhaps it's because I'm the only one who re-watches the movie every couple of weeks like an insane person, but it really seems like I'm in the minority here who doesn't believe Base Gogeta > the Super Saiyan Blues.

I honestly feel that what everyone actually remembers is Gogeta acting overly cocky and it has just been echoed so much around the community that it has created a sort of Mandela effect. There is not a single shred of evidence or implication that Base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta yet everyone parrots it because, well, everyone else does.

And the Vegito argument doesn't work. In the anime, that Merged Zamasu that Vegito fought wasn't the same strength as the one SSB Goku/Vegeta & Trunks did (this was after M.Zamasu got massively stronger from hitting himself with the Lightning of Absolution and getting the purple arm, which cause Goku and Vegeta to decide to fuse at all). And the manga, M.Zamasu himself acknowledged Base Vegito as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, saying to himself that he might actually have a challenge now.

I don't own the Manga in any official capacity, so this Youtube video is the best source I have, and clearly Zamasu calls Vegetto trash rather than "acknowledging him as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta" or treating him like a challenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYShBO6Jofs

Fusion is officially a AxB multiplier of both partners power leading to the base fusion, hence why Base Kefla > SSJ2 Caulifla & Mastered Berzerk Kale, why Buu arc Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku & Majin Vegeta, etc.

I don't disagree with the base Fusions being above Super Saiyan 2 or 3, even the AxB multiplier can work, but that doesn't mean that Base Fusions should just be stronger than the fusees strongest forms. Otherwise, Ultra Instinct and any other future forms are obsolete and they should've just changed Dragon Ball Super to Dragon Ball Fusions: The Anime.

- The fact that Base Gogeta could so effortlessly dodge and parry SSJ1 Broly attacks at all while being still cocky and in control of the situation is obvious proof that he was stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta (who were basically blood lusted, getting slapped around and forced to retreat instead of using their higher forms). Only with pure headcanon would someone argue that SSB Goku/Vegeta were stronger than Base Gogeta despite having a worse performance.

- The fact that Base Vegito could so effortlessly destroy half of M.Zamasu's body (a feat that Vegeta needed a SSB Gamma attack to do) alone points to Base Vegito > SSB Goku/Vegeta.

- Base Fusions are only stronger than their fusees natural forms. This doesn't apply to things like UI and Kaioken.

[Koitsukai]

The narrative clearly implies Jiren is the strongest ever up to that point, that's the only thing going on for him, he can't manipulate time, he is not immortal, he can't zenkai on the spot, he can't use magic, he can't even transform, he is just strong, plain and simple. He doesn't have "different ki", nothing backs that up, he just has a LOT of ki.
What's different ki anyway? god ki, regular ki? what else? nothing else was ever introduced except spirit control. And god ki seems to be regular ki just not leaking out.

So a comment on a power display from Jiren (effortlessly deflecting with his eyes a genki dama from the strongest Goku ever), can't really have more than one interpretation. DB, specially the anime, isn't the read-between-the-lines kind of show, more so if what you read between those lines is never to be seen again.

[ankokudaishogun]

he is just strong, plain and simple.

Literally Whis' words.

Which arguably makes him quite different from everybody else the Z Fighters fought: they all had some weird trick, Jiren is Just Strong.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The narrative clearly implies Jiren is the strongest ever up to that point, that's the only thing going on for him, he can't manipulate time, he is not immortal, he can't zenkai on the spot, he can't use magic, he can't even transform, he is just strong, plain and simple. He doesn't have "different ki", nothing backs that up, he just has a LOT of ki.
What's different ki anyway? god ki, regular ki? what else? nothing else was ever introduced except spirit control. And god ki seems to be regular ki just not leaking out.

So a comment on a power display from Jiren (effortlessly deflecting with his eyes a genki dama from the strongest Goku ever), can't really have more than one interpretation. DB, specially the anime, isn't the read-between-the-lines kind of show, more so if what you read between those lines is never to be seen again.

The show CAN be subtle on these things, but you're right. Jiren's power isn't one of them.

Every other main enemy faced before had something to their power that was different; Beerus was a god, Golden Freeza was running on fumes, Hit was able to use Time Skip, and Goku Black and Zamasu had immortality and a stolen body. Meanwhile, Jiren was just so overwhelmingly strong that the sheer difference was enough of a point on its own.

=

BTW, I feel like people really underestimate just how ridiculously powerful Jiren is. That Genkidama pushing feat is way more ridiculous than one might think (hard as that is to believe) specifically because we have plenty of other examples to contextualize it. No other villain has been able to resist the Genkidama being thrown at them except for a single one: Majin Buu.

Vegeta and Freeza were both powerless to stop it hitting them despite how much stronger they were than the people that tossed the attack at them, a point that's really important. Against Freeza, even the enormous difference in power between him and Goku's tired-out base form wasn't enough. And against Pure Buu, who was an equal opponent to SS3 Goku, he still struggled immensely to push the Genkidama back against a similarly drained base Goku.

A major point is made about how effortlessly Jiren is pushing back the Genkidama despite Goku having plenty of stamina and putting literally all of his all into this one push. Even if one doesn't take guide-based multipliers for SS3 into account, that's still a MASSIVE difference in power between super-suppressed Jiren and SSB-KKx20 Goku. One can easily see extrapolate from this power level, explicitly equated to that of a Hakaishin if not greater, how such a realm can be up there with even Fusions like Vegito or Gogeta.

[Dragon Wukong]

Personally I feel like Kefla kinda contradicts that, however. Vegeta and Goku in the Future Trunks arc are, in my opinion at least, without a doubt stronger than Kale and Caulifla in the Tournament of Power. Kefla was stated to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, whose power during their fight was said to surpass his first usage of Omen. (If there's any confusion on this, Goku's usage of the Kamehameha can be compared to Piccolo's usage of the Makkankosappo on Raditz. A charging technique used to defeat an opponent who's stronger.)

If Kefla at full power as an SS2 was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen, I think that says that Vegito Blue was as well. In fact, I think the gap between Kale/Caulifla as SS2 (not Kale's Berserk, her SS2) and Goku/Vegeta as SSB should be considered, as that gap is massive. Goku only needed SSG to completely toy with Kale and Caulifla. If Kefla as an SS2 was strong enough to be considered a serious threat to Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, I think Vegito Blue should be compared as a massive gap above that. Certainly above Beerus, but also, possibly around or even above the level of Ultra Instinct or Jiren.

That's just my opinion, anyhow.

Makes sense. But Kefla having enough AP to kill Goku doesn't necessarily make her stronger than him. We all saw how she 'tanked' his strikes, but once he got serious he flinged her around, prompting her to that weird max power state which is imo, above a normal SS2 Kefla. And for all we know, since Kefla is a mix of a saiyan and a more unique saiyan, her forms may not function exactly the same.

Also she pretty much is compared with the Spirit Bomb as a SS, which is a tier of power that Vegito Blue, Peak Merged Zamasu, 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren all have surpassed.

To be fair, even Kale probably couldn't beat Goku or Vegeta pre-ToP, and Caulifla definitely couldn't, so I think the point in comparison to Vegito still stands. As far as Kefla's strength hserself, it's made pretty explicity throughout the fight via dialogue that Kefla was "stronger" than Goku, who would've been knocked out at the very end if any part of Kefla's attack had hit him. Piccolo himself notes that before they start fighting they're basically having a contest where as one powers up the other increases to match. Ultimately, I don't think it'd be fair to put Vegito Blue below Ultra Instinct Omen.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Personally I feel like Kefla kinda contradicts that, however. Vegeta and Goku in the Future Trunks arc are, in my opinion at least, without a doubt stronger than Kale and Caulifla in the Tournament of Power. Kefla was stated to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, whose power during their fight was said to surpass his first usage of Omen. (If there's any confusion on this, Goku's usage of the Kamehameha can be compared to Piccolo's usage of the Makkankosappo on Raditz. A charging technique used to defeat an opponent who's stronger.)

If Kefla at full power as an SS2 was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen, I think that says that Vegito Blue was as well. In fact, I think the gap between Kale/Caulifla as SS2 (not Kale's Berserk, her SS2) and Goku/Vegeta as SSB should be considered, as that gap is massive. Goku only needed SSG to completely toy with Kale and Caulifla. If Kefla as an SS2 was strong enough to be considered a serious threat to Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, I think Vegito Blue should be compared as a massive gap above that. Certainly above Beerus, but also, possibly around or even above the level of Ultra Instinct or Jiren.

That's just my opinion, anyhow.

Makes sense. But Kefla having enough AP to kill Goku doesn't necessarily make her stronger than him. We all saw how she 'tanked' his strikes, but once he got serious he flinged her around, prompting her to that weird max power state which is imo, above a normal SS2 Kefla. And for all we know, since Kefla is a mix of a saiyan and a more unique saiyan, her forms may not function exactly the same.

Also she pretty much is compared with the Spirit Bomb as a SS, which is a tier of power that Vegito Blue, Peak Merged Zamasu, 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren all have surpassed.

To be fair, even Kale probably couldn't beat Goku or Vegeta pre-ToP, and Caulifla definitely couldn't, so I think the point in comparison to Vegito still stands. As far as Kefla's strength hserself, it's made pretty explicity throughout the fight via dialogue that Kefla was "stronger" than Goku, who would've been knocked out at the very end if any part of Kefla's attack had hit him. Piccolo himself notes that before they start fighting they're basically having a contest where as one powers up the other increases to match. Ultimately, I don't think it'd be fair to put Vegito Blue below Ultra Instinct Omen.

I see what you mean. My explanation to that is the fact that Goku and Vegeta got stronger in the Tournament. So perhaps FT Arc Vegito Blue can't defeat everyone in the ToP, but mid-ToP Vegito wrecks Kefla in any form (assuming he uses Blue), yet still would be comparable to 3rd Omen Goku (as in pushing Jiren to Full power).

But ig that's headcanon lol

and I actually had Kefla being significantly weaker initially, but upgraded her strength cause frankly it would make sense for Vegito to be able to fight her on par or win, but Omen was just too strong in comparison. Like what, last week? Lol

[SupremeKai25]

The narrative clearly implies Jiren is the strongest ever up to that point, that's the only thing going on for him, he can't manipulate time, he is not immortal, he can't zenkai on the spot, he can't use magic, he can't even transform, he is just strong, plain and simple. He doesn't have "different ki", nothing backs that up, he just has a LOT of ki.
What's different ki anyway? god ki, regular ki? what else? nothing else was ever introduced except spirit control. And god ki seems to be regular ki just not leaking out.

So a comment on a power display from Jiren (effortlessly deflecting with his eyes a genki dama from the strongest Goku ever), can't really have more than one interpretation. DB, specially the anime, isn't the read-between-the-lines kind of show, more so if what you read between those lines is never to be seen again.

Reading between the lines would be claiming that "different" means "stronger". I didn't read between the lines, I literally copy-pasted the line and repeated what it said:



Besides since Corrupted Fused Zamasu was relative to SSB Vegito, he should also be able to effortlessly deflect a spirit bomb from Goku and co.

[Hugo Boss]

I’ve seen a theory that tries to explain why Zamas’ body was done in by Trunks using the genkidama power-up. Basically, it works with the assumption that Vegetto’s final kamehameha “killed” Goku Black’s half, which made Zamas weak enough. What do you think?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I’ve seen a theory that tries to explain why Zamas’ body was done in by Trunks using the genkidama power-up. Basically, it works with the assumption that Vegetto’s final kamehameha “killed” Goku Black’s half, which made Zamas weak enough. What do you think?

I think it was a combination of a bunch of things.

Vegito's Final Kamehameha stressing Merged Zamasu's body further, his body and ability to regenerate degrading rapidly, his hubris and insanity preventing him from properly guarding, the energy of the Genkidama Sword finishing what's left, and Merged Zamasu himself giving up on his physical form.

[Koitsukai]

Reading between the lines would be claiming that "different" means "stronger". I didn't read between the lines, I literally copy-pasted the line and repeated what it said:

Ok, without headcanon, what's so different about Jiren's power?

I’ve seen a theory that tries to explain why Zamas’ body was done in by Trunks using the genkidama power-up. Basically, it works with the assumption that Vegetto’s final kamehameha “killed” Goku Black’s half, which made Zamas weak enough. What do you think?

I'm not sure about Black's half dying but Gowasu did say before they merge that they needed to hit him with a stronger force than before (SSBKK). So Vegito happens and then Trunks with the same power as before when he couldn't hold Halo Zamasu with his father's help, now can trade blows with MZ even before the whole genki thing powering him up.

[ZombieVito]

I’ve seen a theory that tries to explain why Zamas’ body was done in by Trunks using the genkidama power-up. Basically, it works with the assumption that Vegetto’s final kamehameha “killed” Goku Black’s half, which made Zamas weak enough. What do you think?

That's not how fusions work at all.

There's only one soul after they fused.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I have an easier response to all that, which may as well contradict my own headcanon. But, it's not like we don't know it's the case already.

Technically 2 paths that this response can follow:

1)Merged Zamasu was never intended to be stronger than 2 SSBs. Future Zamasu only gave a tiny bit of power to the fusion, which Black pushed to the limit. However, for some reason, with no explanation, Merged Zamasu challenged Vegito Blue (who may or may not use Blue at full power. Perfect Ki control remember?).

2)SS2 Rage Trunks with the Spirit Bomb Absorbed gained too much of a power increase. Like, if it was for him to be ranked in the ToP, he could be nearing MUI tiers of power in that instant.

Well either way, I personally justify all this with Zamasu getting stronger with each form, Vegito never rly going all out despite the FKHH and the Spirit Bomb making FTrunks strong enough to deliver a final blow.

I'm seeing a parallel with how Mechikaboola got defeated lol

I think it's stressing for us to try an find a reason as to why all this happened. But I'm confident that Jiren was always meant to be the strongest, with Broly and Moro being near contenders for the title, but not quite.

[SupremeKai25]

Logically it's fairly easy to see how Fused Zamasu lost, when you take into consideration that he was getting damaged a lot by Vegito and was falling apart both physically and mentally. But for some reason Toei decided to cram all of that into one episode instead of taking more time to explain what the fuck was going on. The result is that you have to headcanon to fill some holes.

To this day I still don't know why they gave Fused Zamasu only 2 episodes (followed by 10 episodes of filler....), but I am going off-topic.

[Miracles]

Technically, the whole "god realm" of power thing has been existent since mid to late Dragon Ball. Karin and Kami would have qualified, right? Every single Z-warrior, even Yajirobe, surpassed them. It's at around King Kai and Shin where you begin to see fighters being checked off from the ascendancy list.

Well "god realm" in the sense your talking about, was just in general.

When entering the TOP arc we're specifically talking about God of Destruction power level realm.

The plot tells us the power level ladder got higher.

[Hugo Boss]

I’ve seen a theory that tries to explain why Zamas’ body was done in by Trunks using the genkidama power-up. Basically, it works with the assumption that Vegetto’s final kamehameha “killed” Goku Black’s half, which made Zamas weak enough. What do you think?

That's not how fusions work at all.

There's only one soul after they fused.

Do you mind explaining why you think so?

[Koitsukai]

Quick question, when was stated in the manga that SSB is 10x SSG?

I always thought it happened during the Champa tournament, but I don't remember reading anything like that.