Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:47 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:09 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:20 am It also isn't implied anywhere that Black reached some kind of limit, that's a fanfic nerf this forum is giving him.

In fact, the Story completely contradicts this. If Black somehow reached the limit of how much he can take to grow stronger, he wouldn't be trying to make Goku and Vegeta stronger.

We also see that Fused Zamasu becomes stronger not by the wound Goku gave him, but by the wound he gives to himself by striking himself with his own attack. The narrative is blatant in what it's trying to establish.
Not only this is an inappropriate way to have a conversation, but you also are ignoring that Goku Black’s half from Fused Zamasu couldn’t sustain the damage Goku inflicted on him. And it only kept getting stronger because the other Zamasu half was carrying on.
But why would his immortal half get stronger?

Every single successful attack that Zamasu did was from his corrupted half.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:21 pm

I don’t see how my post is suggesting I’m saying the immortal Zamasu is the one getting stronger. What I’m saying is that if the immortal Zamasu wasn’t fused with Goku Black, he would probably be dead if he took Goku’s kamehameha, as the state of his body suggests. He circumvents that because the fusion is keeping him alive and allows him to activate his power-up skill.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:42 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:21 pm I don’t see how my post is suggesting I’m saying the immortal Zamasu is the one getting stronger. What I’m saying is that if the immortal Zamasu wasn’t fused with Goku Black, he would probably be dead if he took Goku’s kamehameha, as the state of his body suggests. He circumvents that because the fusion is keeping him alive and allows him to activate his power-up skill.
I see.

Yeah, Black is dead if he takes that Kamehameha plus Holy Wrath head on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:33 am

I mean, pretty much anyone at that point is dead if they take a life-risking Kamehameha AND Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath to the face.

Goku and the other ningens were implied to be fighting for their lives, and if they were hit by the Holy Wrath, they'd all be dead. That's why Goku did all his best to push it back. Vegeta was oneshot and his armor was broken by Absolute Lightning which is a weaker/smaller attack than Holy Wrath.

It's not really an anti-feat for Black. Fused Zamasu is just insanely strong. I'd expect no less from, well, the Fusion of Goku Black and another Zamasu :think:

There's also the fact that Goku pushing back Zamasu's attack was an asspull, let's be real. The dude was casually oneshot twice by Zamasu's weaker attacks, so he had no business holding his own against Zamasu's strongest/largest attack. He won that beam struggle only because he's MC.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:10 pm

So how strong is Frost? How does he tie in with Frieza and the Base and Super Saiyans?

In the RoF Saga, Final Form Frieza was just as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta.

In the U6 Saga, both Goku and even Vegeta transformed into Super Saiyan to fight Final Form Frost.

However in the ToP it was said by Champa that Frost stands no chance of beating Frieza and he wouldn't be including Golden Frieza because he hadn't seen that yet.

So how does that all work? Was Frost just weaker than Base form Goku and Vegeta the whole time? And they just used for Super Saiyan for the sake of it?

Or is Frost closer to Super Saiyan level and Frieza after his training just happens to be closer to Super Saiyan level by the ToP instead of Base level?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:10 pm So how strong is Frost? How does he tie in with Frieza and the Base and Super Saiyans?

In the RoF Saga, Final Form Frieza was just as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta.

In the U6 Saga, both Goku and even Vegeta transformed into Super Saiyan to fight Final Form Frost.

However in the ToP it was said by Champa that Frost stands no chance of beating Frieza and he wouldn't be including Golden Frieza because he hadn't seen that yet.

So how does that all work? Was Frost just weaker than Base form Goku and Vegeta the whole time? And they just used for Super Saiyan for the sake of it?

Or is Frost closer to Super Saiyan level and Frieza after his training just happens to be closer to Super Saiyan level by the ToP instead of Base level?
In the anime, Frost is completely helpless when Goku and Vegeta go Super Saiyan, and Vegeta was prepared to take on Frost in base form during the Tournament of Power; he only turned Super Saiyan when Frost got Magetta involved, and he stayed in that form for the duration of that fight until he got sealed with the Mafuba.

I'd say that he's simply equal to Freeza in their respective base forms, but Freeza has a ruthlessness and cunning that even Frost can't match at equal strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:14 pm

Just noticed that Frieza easily best the tar out of Base Cabba aswell who previously was Base Vegeta's equal.

He also effortlessly beat Napapa who Caulifla had to face as Super Saiyan and who is more on Goku's level in the same form near enough.

So I'd say Frieza just went from Base level to closer to Super Saiyan level myself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:17 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:10 pm
However in the ToP it was said by Champa that Frost stands no chance of beating Frieza and he wouldn't be including Golden Frieza because he hadn't seen that yet.

Can you tell me in what episode this happened?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:52 pm

He won it simply because he sacrificed his arms for it. That's literally it.

I see no issue with this. Did people really complained when Piccolo hurt the U6 Nameks with his Makankosappo? Or Goku blasting off Moro's arm with a Kamehameha?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:10 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:52 pm He won it simply because he sacrificed his arms for it. That's literally it.

I see no issue with this. Did people really complained when Piccolo hurt the U6 Nameks with his Makankosappo? Or Goku blasting off Moro's arm with a Kamehameha?
Pretty much this. Pushing the limit of how powerful a single attack can get is a staple of the franchise. Vegeta managed to damage Perfect Cell immensely with his Final Flash, Piccolo tore through Raditz with a full-charged Makankosappo, etc.

Goku doing the same thing with his Kamehameha to such a degree that his arms were briefly useless is honestly par for the course, and I really commend the anime team for really selling how much that took outta Goku; he didn't even manage this when using the KaiokenX4 against Vegeta when they first fought years ago, or when he used the KaiokenX10 against Hit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:19 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:17 pmCan you tell me in what episode this happened?
It was the one where Frost was eliminated. I think it was after Gohan and Frieza took care of Jimizu, Frost shows up and Champa asks Vados what he's doing. When Vados says something about how he might be taking them on Champa tells him to get out of there because he has no chance against Frieza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:28 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:33 am I mean, pretty much anyone at that point is dead if they take a life-risking Kamehameha AND Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath to the face.

Goku and the other ningens were implied to be fighting for their lives, and if they were hit by the Holy Wrath, they'd all be dead. That's why Goku did all his best to push it back. Vegeta was oneshot and his armor was broken by Absolute Lightning which is a weaker/smaller attack than Holy Wrath.

It's not really an anti-feat for Black. Fused Zamasu is just insanely strong. I'd expect no less from, well, the Fusion of Goku Black and another Zamasu :think:

There's also the fact that Goku pushing back Zamasu's attack was an asspull, let's be real. The dude was casually oneshot twice by Zamasu's weaker attacks, so he had no business holding his own against Zamasu's strongest/largest attack. He won that beam struggle only because he's MC.
I mean, that's because Goku got stronger. I'm glad you're starting to see how it's illogical to rationalize all of this without accepting that simple fact.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:28 pm I mean, that's because Goku got stronger. I'm glad you're starting to see how it's illogical to rationalize all of this without accepting that simple fact.
Stronger than when he was stomped and almost killed by Black? Yes.

Stronger than Black? No.

Especially when you consider the fact that Black wasn't even moving one limb to completely corner and overwhelm both Goku and Vegeta; so imagine if he was actually risking his life with a life-risking move.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:52 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:14 pm Just noticed that Frieza easily best the tar out of Base Cabba aswell who previously was Base Vegeta's equal.

He also effortlessly beat Napapa who Caulifla had to face as Super Saiyan and who is more on Goku's level in the same form near enough.

So I'd say Frieza just went from Base level to closer to Super Saiyan level myself.
From my perspective, Freeza is on par with Super Saiyan Goku, specially when they both finished Jiren together.

Freeza also handled Jimizu just fine, while Base Gohan struggled and he implies Gohan would also be capable of handling Jimizu as a Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:43 pm

Where does Kefla and the Ultra Instinct Sign Goku that she fought rank amongst the Blue Vegito, Corrupted Zamasu and Trunks with the Sword of Hope?

Initial Jiren would have to be stronger than Zamasu via Shins words and Ultra Instinct Sign Goku matched him. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stated to be above that version of Goku too.

Is Kefla stronger than Zamasu? Doesn't seem like she should he because did quite well against Vegito and makes no sense for SSJ2 Kefla to be anywhere near SSJB Vegito.

Is this accurate

Jiren (Suppressed) > Corrupted Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Sign Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla = Spirit Bomb

But where does Trunks rank? Obviously he should be above Zamasu but does it make sense for him to be above Kefla and Goku?

Is the energy Trunks absorbed to form the Sword of Hope stronger or weaker than the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb that Super Saiyan Kefla is comparable too? You'd think it wouldn't be but then Super Saiyan Kefla is stronger than Corrupted Zamasu seems odd.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:51 pm

I wouldn't place Jiren's bout with Goku anywhere close to the SSB Vegito/Corrupt Zamasu level in terms of how large his suppressed power level is.

I tend to see that moment more as the sheer level of suppression he's using despite effortlessly stalemating Goku going to the absolute maximum limit of his potential during that struggle showing just how far the depths are to his power. In essence, his suppression shows that his true power would eclipse even the power levels on display in battle between Fusions in the previous arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:52 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:14 pm Just noticed that Frieza easily best the tar out of Base Cabba aswell who previously was Base Vegeta's equal.

He also effortlessly beat Napapa who Caulifla had to face as Super Saiyan and who is more on Goku's level in the same form near enough.

So I'd say Frieza just went from Base level to closer to Super Saiyan level myself.
From my perspective, Freeza is on par with Super Saiyan Goku, specially when they both finished Jiren together.

Freeza also handled Jimizu just fine, while Base Gohan struggled and he implies Gohan would also be capable of handling Jimizu as a Super Saiyan.
Yeah, Freeza is Super Saiyan level in his true form after his hell training. This also correlates with the manga when he faced off against SS Caulifla.

I have Frost at mid SS tier while Freeza would be high SS tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:40 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:43 pm Where does Kefla and the Ultra Instinct Sign Goku that she fought rank amongst the Blue Vegito, Corrupted Zamasu and Trunks with the Sword of Hope?

Initial Jiren would have to be stronger than Zamasu via Shins words and Ultra Instinct Sign Goku matched him. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stated to be above that version of Goku too.

Is Kefla stronger than Zamasu? Doesn't seem like she should he because did quite well against Vegito and makes no sense for SSJ2 Kefla to be anywhere near SSJB Vegito.

Is this accurate

Jiren (Suppressed) > Corrupted Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Sign Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla = Spirit Bomb

But where does Trunks rank? Obviously he should be above Zamasu but does it make sense for him to be above Kefla and Goku?

Is the energy Trunks absorbed to form the Sword of Hope stronger or weaker than the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb that Super Saiyan Kefla is comparable too? You'd think it wouldn't be but then Super Saiyan Kefla is stronger than Corrupted Zamasu seems odd.
A fair reminder that Kefla's Super Saiyan is supposedly the same variant that Broly uses in both of his incarnations, the Super Saiyan (Full Power) or Legendary Super Saiyan, so it's not that farfetched that she could stand up to SSB Vegito with it - Broly did manage to stand up to SSB Gogeta to some degree while pushing himself to his utmost limit (well, in raw power at least, he was completely outskilled in that fight). Ascend that form to it's SS2 equivalent, and then... Yeah, imo it's nothing to scoff at.

As a form, it seems to stand above even Super Saiyan God in terms of raw power - it made Kale go from weak (to U6 saiyan standards, in the anime) and stronger than SS Caulifla (in the manga) to just below Super Saiyan God (in the anime) and on the general level of the SSB tier (in the manga). In the same vein, it made Broly go from losing to an SSB (in his Wrathful state) to capable of fighting a Blue Fusion and actually survive for an amazing amount of time.

But with that said, I wouldn't put SS Kefla close to the FT arc Fusions. Mostly because, when I look at Shin's statement, coupled with Whis' assessment and general context of the arcs' narrative, it stood to me it was Jiren's "true power" that was beyond everything they have faced thus far, and they could tell by just seeing how much power he was unleashing despite not even powering up properly.

So to me, if I were to give a scale of it, would be like

1. Jiren (FP, Shirtless) and UI Goku
2. SSB Vegito (FT Arc) and Jiren (FP, regular)
3. Corrupted Zamasu (FP)
4. UI Sign Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
5. Jiren (Heavily suppressed, fought UIS Goku in the special)
6. Super Saiyan Kefla, the U7 Spirit Bomb and even Zamasu (Halo, actually trying).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:45 pm

I'd figure that considering Super Saiyan 2 Kale was below that of Super Saiyan God Goku that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be below any hypothetical Super Saiyan God Vegito.

I'd also say even Jiren at his suppressed level was above that of Kefla. When Kefla became Super Saiyan 2, Piccolo said she was perhaps stronger than Goku the first time he used Ultra Instinct Sign. There was no mention of her ever being stronger than Jiren or anything.

Also if Super Saiyan Kefla is comparable to the Spirit Bomb then shouldn't she be in the same ballpark as Trunks after he absorbed the Spirit Bomb?

Though that would place Super Saiyan Kefla over Corrupted Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:33 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm
Stronger than when he was stomped and almost killed by Black? Yes.

Stronger than Black? No.

Especially when you consider the fact that Black wasn't even moving one limb to completely corner and overwhelm both Goku and Vegeta; so imagine if he was actually risking his life with a life-risking move.
I'm confused here. How does Black's performance against SSJB Goku and Vegeta during their final encounter have any sort of relevance when we agree that Goku had become stronger anyways? Using that as a reference point by comparing Black to a weaker Goku makes no sense.

Regardless, glad we agree that Goku had to have become stronger or else his battle with Merged Zamasu as well as the other character statements that were made would make no sense.

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