Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

[Hugo Boss]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Considering fusion has a good record of insane power-ups, I don’t think this idea would be absurd. I mean, there are enough elements to compare Base Gogeta and SSB Goku. This could be read as basically SSB Goku^2.

[Koitsukai]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

[Thani]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

They're just inflating the power creep without thinking of their series' own internal consistency.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

There was also the V-Jump chart that came out during the Moro arc that said Vegito was powerful enough to rival Beerus.



Since this was released yrs after the ToP and the Broly movie, I always felt like Vegito Blue=Beerus was something that was established.

But I can understand why many no longer adhere to it.

[BWri]

So, as far as scaling Granolah, now that there's more information about his level.

- Granolah clone (with an undefined part of the power of the true Granolah) is able to fight equally with MSSB + Ultra Instinct, resist a Kamehameha at point-blank range and still be fast enough to hit and knock out Goku out of the Blue form during all of this, remaining only with a few scratches.

- We haven't seen much about the real power of Granolah, but although it's been said that the UI's accuracy decreases over time, true Granolah was fast enough that neither Vegeta nor Goku were able to even track his approach, all the way from his ship to the battlefield, as well as being able to knock Goku out of the Perfected UI with one blow, bypassing his incredibly study body (capable of casually break Moro73's hand).

Others may have different opinions about a hypothetical fresh UI Goku and FP Granolah, but with what we've seen so far at least (maybe things will change in the next chapter), with him being such a deadly enemy and with this OHKO potential against a current UI Goku level, Granolah seems to be easily above other antagonists.

There's also the potential for zenkais. I'm not clear if those are obsolete or still in play. It could make the difference.

Objectively speaking, Beerus being stronger than Moro and UI seems like a stretch, not natural at all. But being stronger than Granola that hasn't event shown his FP and can already take out UI Goku seems more like a parody of itself.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beerus is even stronger than the antagonist of the upcoming movie, who should dwarf Granola.

The implications as of now is Beerus is the greatest prodigy the multiverse has ever seen.

He's the pure strongest at the very least. It just makes the other GoD look disappointing by comparison. Should never have compared them to Jiren that early if Beerus is this much better than them.

There was also the V-Jump chart that came out during the Moro arc that said Vegito was powerful enough to rival Beerus.

Spoiler:

Since this was released yrs after the ToP and the Broly movie, I always felt like Vegito Blue=Beerus was something that was established.

But I can understand why many no longer adhere to it.

I just look at all this stuff for what it is, promotional material. That's why I never take it seriously. I also pay close attention to wishy-washy or contradictory statements or feats, anything written to provide doubt. There's always been some of that with statements regarding Beerus' strength. It's easy not to take the promotional statements seriously when that's the case. And Beerus himself never has that moment where he acknowledges in some way that Goku and Vegeta or the flavor of the arc are stronger than him.

*When I say promotional material I'm referring to all comparative statements comparing people to Beerus in the DBS anime and manga, not just literal promotional material.

[Koitsukai]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

There was also the V-Jump chart that came out during the Moro arc that said Vegito was powerful enough to rival Beerus.



Since this was released yrs after the ToP and the Broly movie, I always felt like Vegito Blue=Beerus was something that was established.

But I can understand why many no longer adhere to it.

Yeah, that wasn't impossible at the time but for that to still work, Beerus would've had to been weaker than Moro arc UI Goku, so that his intent of helping Goku when Moro became the Earth was like a tagteam or something.
Now we know Beerus would've needed only one arm to defeat EarthMoro. To be fair, the Moro arc wasn't completely clear with how strong Beerus actually was, it was kinda vague his involvement, but the Granola arc implied he was still above current Goku and then Granola's wish definitely established he is even beyond everybody. With all this dumb Beerus yanking going on, probably by a big margin as well.

One way to save all of this is to have Beerus' physical power be at the level of Jiren, Broly, Moro, but his hakai prowess making him get ahead of everybody, or reveal that he has been training his ass off. Bur probably not, I reckon they'll make Beerus be this strong by not even flexing at all.

[Nevaeh]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

Moro arc fusion was considered useless against Moro73 and Moro73 is fodder to Beerus

Toyo just wanted to hype up Vegito since it was his idea to include him

[Koitsukai]

It's really weird the authorial intent for DBS.

Even if we want to chalk this up to Toyo wanting to have somebody surpass Beerus and Toriyama telling him that it is not going to happen an arc or so later, we still have the Broly movie where Toriyama -not Toyo- included that comparison to Beerus.
We didn't need that in order to gauge Broly's power, or to hype him up(it was done after the fight!), you remove that and you still can tell how much of a jaggernaut Broly is. So why, then? what whas the point?

Don't they even care if they erase with their elbow what they wrote/draw with their hands... a year ago? It's like every arc could work better if it existed in their own particular universe, dropping everything established before...

[BWri]

It's just a hype statement to promote the current foe. It's overused for sure, but it works every single time when it comes to exciting the fandom. Capitalism!

[Thani]

Does anyone believe it's still possible for Beerus to be superior to Granola, UI Goku, Moro, Broly, and Jiren all while being rivaled by Vegito from the Trunks arc?

Beerus has been confirmed to be comfortably above even Broly arc blue fusion. Shin was just dead wrong.

One might wonder, what the hell was Toyo thinking, what was the point of that, retconning yourself 3 years later...

Moro arc fusion was considered useless against Moro73 and Moro73 is fodder to Beerus

Toyo just wanted to hype up Vegito since it was his idea to include him

Fusion was useless against Moro because Moro at that point had access to Forced Spirit Fission. Power levels were never mentioned as a factor there.

[ankokudaishogun]

It's worth to note it might not have been Tori's intention to add the comparison in the movie, but a choice of the scriptwriter.

Still, it was there and the movie is canon for both anime and manga.



That said, I stand my theory: Jiren is a stronger MARTIAL ARTIST than Belmod and Beerus, but Gods of Destruction are not ONLY martial artists.

This fits both the fact Beerus and Whis stated they had better ways to deal with immortals even if they couldn't be Hakai'd and Toppo's particular precise affirmation that Jiren was stronger than Belmod in Martial Arts

it also fits Toppo being "the same as a regular GoD" once he gets serious but still just about the level of Blue x20
Which in turn fits Beerus starting being worried about Goku revealing Blue x10

GoDs are most likely in the Blue x20-xN range as martial artist powers. Where N is hard to define, but most likely somehow weaker than Jiren's Full Power he demonstrated against Goku's 3rd UI-Sign

Then they can "add" more power somehow with Hakai or whatever.

tl;dr:
Beerus the Martial Artist has been surpassed.
Beerus the God of Destruction has not been surpassed yet.

[Miracles]

Guys...It's time to let it go. Beerus has always been the man since the start of Super. Nothing has changed, proven by this current arc; how even the strongest in the universe is below him.

Time to move on and accept the prizes for the journeys we chose.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's really weird the authorial intent for DBS.

Even if we want to chalk this up to Toyo wanting to have somebody surpass Beerus and Toriyama telling him that it is not going to happen an arc or so later, we still have the Broly movie where Toriyama -not Toyo- included that comparison to Beerus.
We didn't need that in order to gauge Broly's power, or to hype him up(it was done after the fight!), you remove that and you still can tell how much of a jaggernaut Broly is. So why, then? what whas the point?

Don't they even care if they erase with their elbow what they wrote/draw with their hands... a year ago? It's like every arc could work better if it existed in their own particular universe, dropping everything established before...

At this point, I'm just assuming that Toriyama didn't intend Beerus to be surpassed during ToP after all (despite all the claims about Jiren surpassing Belmod / rivaling a GoD), considering that in the story that follows the tournament (probably having started production before the Universal Survival arc even started), Beerus is still used as a measure stick against an enemy who, following the scale of later antagonist > earlier antagonist (and following out of universe statements from magazines), is even stronger than Jiren. And it's not even a definitive statement because Goku uses ''probably''.

With that I kind of wonder why Toriyama let FT arc SSB Vegetto be compared to Beerus when he still holds him at such a high standards to this day

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm mostly just confused on Gods of Destruction in general now. Is Beerus special, or is he just in the same league?

If he's the former, why are Gods of Destruction always generally compared to one another when contrasting them against the latest opponents?

If he's the latter, why are opponents explicitly as strong or stronger than this level still being considered below Beerus by proxy thanks to comparisons with Goku?

It felt like the idea was to start introducing opponents as strong/stronger than Gods of Destruction, but then they still wanted to keep Beerus on this pedestal despite the fact that he was supposed to be just one of many even if he's still pretty good with a few other Gods of Destruction being as strong or potentially stronger than him.

[Thani]

I'm mostly just confused on Gods of Destruction in general now. Is Beerus special, or is he just in the same league?

If he's the former, why are Gods of Destruction always generally compared to one another when contrasting them against the latest opponents?

If he's the latter, why are opponents explicitly as strong or stronger than this level still being considered below Beerus by proxy thanks to comparisons with Goku?

It felt like the idea was to start introducing opponents as strong/stronger than Gods of Destruction, but then they still wanted to keep Beerus on this pedestal despite the fact that he was supposed to be just one of many even if he's still pretty good with a few other Gods of Destruction being as strong or potentially stronger than him.

It also doesn't make much sense since none of the other Gods are particularly intimidated by him.

[BWri]

I'm mostly just confused on Gods of Destruction in general now. Is Beerus special, or is he just in the same league?

You have to use out of universe logic to figure this one out. Universe 7 is apparently Toriyama-san's favorite. They have the best of everything. Best Saiyans, best Coldling, best androids (including Cell and 7-3), best Namekian (Piccolo required less fusions to acquire his power), and also the best GoD.

Just like he quickly made Goku's group the strongest on Earth, he quickly made U7 the strongest in the multiverse.

[Koitsukai]

I'm mostly just confused on Gods of Destruction in general now. Is Beerus special, or is he just in the same league?

If he's the former, why are Gods of Destruction always generally compared to one another when contrasting them against the latest opponents?

If he's the latter, why are opponents explicitly as strong or stronger than this level still being considered below Beerus by proxy thanks to comparisons with Goku?

It felt like the idea was to start introducing opponents as strong/stronger than Gods of Destruction, but then they still wanted to keep Beerus on this pedestal despite the fact that he was supposed to be just one of many even if he's still pretty good with a few other Gods of Destruction being as strong or potentially stronger than him.

He's definitely special, he is one of the few that have the hakai earring, he does jack all millenium long and still comes up on top and has a higher form of UI than the rest of the GoDs. He doesn't even need to use his hands to defeat a GoD level character like Moro arc Vegeta. He has an impressive control of UI and Hakai.

Only Quitela is on his league, but who knows if that's also been retconned and not even that mouse can touch him now. Maybe in an actual fight without rules and hakai allowed, Quitela gets bodied like Vegeta.

I guess, he was conceived as being in the same league as everybody else, but give him a few more arcs and not even the Daishinkan will be on his level.

[Hugo Boss]

I think having ultra instinct on top of destruction makes Beerus a very distinct god in comparison to the others. But I don’t think we ever got an implication that he could be stronger or as strong as Whis, as far as I’m aware.

[Koitsukai]

I think having ultra instinct on top of destruction makes Beerus a very distinct god in comparison to the others. But I don’t think we ever got an implication that he could be stronger or as strong as Whis, as far as I’m aware.

I now wonder if he could've stopped EarthMoro's punches as easily as Whis did. I mean, he is much stronger than the power level at displayed there.
He isn't as strong as Whis, but I do wonder, what if he perfected UI?? could he be on his level? Or close enough for Whis to take him seriously?