Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Base gogeta is above ssb goku. Dude straight up reflected ki blasts effortlessly. Ssj broly powered up a couple times before going FPSSJ and was still outmatched by ssj gogeta.


Anyways. Apperantly if the wording is correct, freeza says (at that point in time which is currently unknown when) that he thinks there is no one alive who can win against broly. Whether it is ssj or FPSSJ in the novel is unknown as of now.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Forgot the link
https://mobile.twitter.com/Cipher_db/st ... 0414501889

[Cipher]

Here's everything you could possibly have wanted to know about the (IMO, absolutely not actually worth discussing) Freeza line: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/10 ... 9394477056

And yes, "probably" (多分) is the right word for Goku's statement about Broly in relation to Beerus at the end. There isn't really room to interpret it another way.

[Hugo Boss]

Here's everything you could possibly have wanted to know about the (IMO, absolutely not actually worth discussing) Freeza line: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/10 ... 9394477056

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us. I’m also from the opinion it shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

Perhaps Freeza sensed Broly had the potential to make Beerus less of a threat to his plans?

[PFM18]

Here's everything you could possibly have wanted to know about the (IMO, absolutely not actually worth discussing) Freeza line: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/10 ... 9394477056

And yes, "probably" (多分) is the right word for Goku's statement about Broly in relation to Beerus at the end. There isn't really room to interpret it another way.

Alright, thanks. I guess I personally don't put too much stock into the light Novel and it appears you don't either.

I am more interested in the film itself and the fact that "probably" was used rather than "maybe" which conveys something pretty different. If Goku(and therefore the author) expresses with a degree of certainty that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and Broly's superiority isnt really questionable with this verbatim, then I think it's reasonable to say that the goalposts weren't actually moved and Beerus's power wasn't retconned. Therefore, Jiren>Beerus still holds and going by the promotional material we can certainly assume that Broly>Jiren. Glad that's clarified.

[ankokudaishogun]

Promotion material has even less value than the novel, which is arguably promotional material itself

[TheSaiyanGod]

Here's everything you could possibly have wanted to know about the (IMO, absolutely not actually worth discussing) Freeza line: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/10 ... 9394477056

And yes, "probably" (多分) is the right word for Goku's statement about Broly in relation to Beerus at the end. There isn't really room to interpret it another way.

Alright, thanks. I guess I personally don't put too much stock into the light Novel and it appears you don't either.

I am more interested in the film itself and the fact that "probably" was used rather than "maybe" which conveys something pretty different. If Goku(and therefore the author) expresses with a degree of certainty that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and Broly's superiority isnt really questionable with this verbatim, then I think it's reasonable to say that the goalposts weren't actually moved and Beerus's power wasn't retconned. Therefore, Jiren>Beerus still holds and going by the promotional material we can certainly assume that Broly>Jiren. Glad that's clarified.

Jiren even though he was far from using his full power was already regarded with certainty as a human who surpassed the power of a GoD (and that GoD was stronger than Beerus), and at the end of the tournament became much stronger, while Goku is not even sure that Broly is superior to Beerus, I still see Jiren considerably more powerful.

And the movie contradicts this promotional material because if Goku is not sure if Broly is stronger than Beerus (who is not even Goku's strongest enemy), then Broly can not be the strongest enemy.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Whis had already noted jiren was far from full power before he made the statement of jiren being on the level of GoD if not beyond it in episode 110. He was taking into account the feat and extrapolating jirens full power.

E.Gl. Whis thinks "only someone at GoD level or above could wreck this spirit bomb while still holding back most of their power". He wasn't saying episode 109-110 jiren was >= GoDs. That would make FP jiren tens of times above the GoDs since he didn't even use a hint of his real power until episode 123.

[PFM18]

Here's everything you could possibly have wanted to know about the (IMO, absolutely not actually worth discussing) Freeza line: https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/10 ... 9394477056

And yes, "probably" (多分) is the right word for Goku's statement about Broly in relation to Beerus at the end. There isn't really room to interpret it another way.

Alright, thanks. I guess I personally don't put too much stock into the light Novel and it appears you don't either.

I am more interested in the film itself and the fact that "probably" was used rather than "maybe" which conveys something pretty different. If Goku(and therefore the author) expresses with a degree of certainty that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and Broly's superiority isnt really questionable with this verbatim, then I think it's reasonable to say that the goalposts weren't actually moved and Beerus's power wasn't retconned. Therefore, Jiren>Beerus still holds and going by the promotional material we can certainly assume that Broly>Jiren. Glad that's clarified.

Jiren even though he was far from using his full power was already regarded with certainty as a human who surpassed the power of a GoD (and that GoD was stronger than Beerus), and at the end of the tournament became much stronger, while Goku is not even sure that Broly is superior to Beerus, I still see Jiren considerably more powerful.

And the movie contradicts this promotional material because if Goku is not sure if Broly is stronger than Beerus (who is not even Goku's strongest enemy), then Broly can not be the strongest enemy.

Yeah, I don't think that was actually the way it was portrayed. The interpretation of Jiren>GoDs appeared to be a projection of Jiren's full-power, as if to say "Wow, if he is doing this without even trying, he must be stronger than a GoD!" The way it is conveyed later, is that the GoDs are only surpassed in the final battle of UI Goku vs Jiren, and the Jump magazine corroborates this. If GoDs were surpassed in 109/110, then the GoDs would be complete and total fodder. Which is, clearly not the case. Jiren simply isn't stronger than GoDs until he uses his full-power. And Goku say "probably" so as in, he believes that to most likely be the case, save for some huge grave miscalculation or misinterpretation of things. The word "probably" implies that it isn't really especially questionable like "maybe." And literally every single piece of promotional material aligns with this interpretation/premise that Broly>Jiren.

Whis had already noted jiren was far from full power before he made the statement of jiren being on the level of GoD if not beyond it in episode 110. He was taking into account the feat and extrapolating jirens full power.

E.Gl. Whis thinks "only someone at GoD level or above could wreck this spirit bomb while still holding back most of their power". He wasn't saying episode 109-110 jiren was >= GoDs. That would make FP jiren tens of times above the GoDs since he didn't even use a hint of his real power until episode 123.

Exactly. That's basically what I'm trying to say. Whis is well aware of the fact that Jiren is not even close to his FP, and so this assertion that Jiren>GoDs is a projection of Jiren's full-power. If he had actually surpassed the GoDs in 109/110, that would make the GoDs a complete and total joke compared to Jiren's max output.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Alright, thanks. I guess I personally don't put too much stock into the light Novel and it appears you don't either.

I am more interested in the film itself and the fact that "probably" was used rather than "maybe" which conveys something pretty different. If Goku(and therefore the author) expresses with a degree of certainty that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and Broly's superiority isnt really questionable with this verbatim, then I think it's reasonable to say that the goalposts weren't actually moved and Beerus's power wasn't retconned. Therefore, Jiren>Beerus still holds and going by the promotional material we can certainly assume that Broly>Jiren. Glad that's clarified.

Jiren even though he was far from using his full power was already regarded with certainty as a human who surpassed the power of a GoD (and that GoD was stronger than Beerus), and at the end of the tournament became much stronger, while Goku is not even sure that Broly is superior to Beerus, I still see Jiren considerably more powerful.

And the movie contradicts this promotional material because if Goku is not sure if Broly is stronger than Beerus (who is not even Goku's strongest enemy), then Broly can not be the strongest enemy.

Yeah, I don't think that was actually the way it was portrayed. The interpretation of Jiren>GoDs appeared to be a projection of Jiren's full-power, as if to say "Wow, if he is doing this without even trying, he must be stronger than a GoD!" The way it is conveyed later, is that the GoDs are only surpassed in the final battle of UI Goku vs Jiren, and the Jump magazine corroborates this. If GoDs were surpassed in 109/110, then the GoDs would be complete and total fodder. Which is, clearly not the case. Jiren simply isn't stronger than GoDs until he uses his full-power. And Goku say "probably" so as in, he believes that to most likely be the case, save for some huge grave miscalculation or misinterpretation of things. The word "probably" implies that it isn't really especially questionable like "maybe." And literally every single piece of promotional material aligns with this interpretation/premise that Broly>Jiren.

Whis had already noted jiren was far from full power before he made the statement of jiren being on the level of GoD if not beyond it in episode 110. He was taking into account the feat and extrapolating jirens full power.

E.Gl. Whis thinks "only someone at GoD level or above could wreck this spirit bomb while still holding back most of their power". He wasn't saying episode 109-110 jiren was >= GoDs. That would make FP jiren tens of times above the GoDs since he didn't even use a hint of his real power until episode 123.

Exactly. That's basically what I'm trying to say. Whis is well aware of the fact that Jiren is not even close to his FP, and so this assertion that Jiren>GoDs is a projection of Jiren's full-power. If he had actually surpassed the GoDs in 109/110, that would make the GoDs a complete and total joke compared to Jiren's max output.

Well, I agree that it makes no sense that Jiren is at the GoD level being heavily suppressed as it was on EP 110, but the point is that Whis explicitly states that the rumors were true. And the rumors said that Jiren was stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus.

Jiren> this GoD> Beerus.

So, FP Jiren would be more powerful than Beerus. But at the end of the tournament, he got even stronger, being able to get the upper hand against MUI Goku, so that difference between him and the GoDs has increased (I do not say it's a big difference, but it's considerable).

And although '' probably '' is a much greater certainty than '' maybe, '' if Broly was arguably more powerful than Beerus, then that '' probably '' would not exist. And I believe promotional materials that say Broly is the strongest enemy have no more value than the film (which does not put Broly unquestionably stronger than Beerus, so he is not the strongest enemy)

[PFM18]

Well, I agree that it makes no sense that Jiren is at the GoD level being heavily suppressed as it was on EP 110, but the point is that Whis explicitly states that the rumors were true. And the rumors said that Jiren was stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus.

Jiren> this GoD> Beerus.

Well, the rumors were true. I don't think anybody is disputing that, it appears obvious that is the case. It is just that if 110 Jiren>GoDs, then that would mean Full-power Jiren>>>>>>>>>>GoDs, which clearly isn't the case. Both Broly and Jiren are at least within the same level of the GoDs.

And although '' probably '' is a much greater certainty than '' maybe, '' if Broly was arguably more powerful than Beerus, then that '' probably '' would not exist. And I believe promotional materials that say Broly is the strongest enemy have no more value than the film (which does not put Broly unquestionably stronger than Beerus, so he is not the strongest enemy)

Sure, the film takes precedence, but it doesn't contradict the promotional material, so there's no reason to disregard the promotional material.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, I agree that it makes no sense that Jiren is at the GoD level being heavily suppressed as it was on EP 110, but the point is that Whis explicitly states that the rumors were true. And the rumors said that Jiren was stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus.

Jiren> this GoD> Beerus.

Well, the rumors were true. I don't think anybody is disputing that, it appears obvious that is the case. It is just that if 110 Jiren>GoDs, then that would mean Full-power Jiren>>>>>>>>>>GoDs, which clearly isn't the case. Both Broly and Jiren are at least within the same level of the GoDs.

And although '' probably '' is a much greater certainty than '' maybe, '' if Broly was arguably more powerful than Beerus, then that '' probably '' would not exist. And I believe promotional materials that say Broly is the strongest enemy have no more value than the film (which does not put Broly unquestionably stronger than Beerus, so he is not the strongest enemy)

Sure, the film takes precedence, but it doesn't contradict the promotional material, so there's no reason to disregard the promotional material.

Yes, I know that suppressed Jiren is not at the GoDs level (the way I wrote it implied the opposite), the point here is only that Jiren is unquestionably more powerful than Beerus (before breaking his limits), while Broly it's just '' probably '' stronger than the last, and despite that being more sure of '' maybe '', it's still not absolute certainty, unlike Jiren. This basically puts Jiren stronger

In some promotional material it is said that Broly is the strongest enemy, while in the movie Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. These things contradict each other, because Broly can not be the stronger enemy if Goku is not sure if he is stronger than Beerus, who is not even his strongest enemy (while Jiren is definitely stronger, as I said). In this case, the movie has more value

[PFM18]

Well, I agree that it makes no sense that Jiren is at the GoD level being heavily suppressed as it was on EP 110, but the point is that Whis explicitly states that the rumors were true. And the rumors said that Jiren was stronger than a GoD, and that GoD was stronger than Beerus.

Jiren> this GoD> Beerus.

Well, the rumors were true. I don't think anybody is disputing that, it appears obvious that is the case. It is just that if 110 Jiren>GoDs, then that would mean Full-power Jiren>>>>>>>>>>GoDs, which clearly isn't the case. Both Broly and Jiren are at least within the same level of the GoDs.

And although '' probably '' is a much greater certainty than '' maybe, '' if Broly was arguably more powerful than Beerus, then that '' probably '' would not exist. And I believe promotional materials that say Broly is the strongest enemy have no more value than the film (which does not put Broly unquestionably stronger than Beerus, so he is not the strongest enemy)

Sure, the film takes precedence, but it doesn't contradict the promotional material, so there's no reason to disregard the promotional material.

Yes, I know that suppressed Jiren is not at the GoDs level (the way I wrote it implied the opposite), the point here is only that Jiren is unquestionably more powerful than Beerus (before breaking his limits), while Broly it's just '' probably '' stronger than the last, and despite that being more sure of '' maybe '', it's still not absolute certainty, unlike Jiren. This basically puts Jiren stronger

In some promotional material it is said that Broly is the strongest enemy, while in the movie Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. These things contradict each other, because Broly can not be the stronger enemy if Goku is not sure if he is stronger than Beerus, who is not even his strongest enemy (while Jiren is definitely stronger, as I said). In this case, the movie has more value

I mean, Jiren was never directly compared to Beerus either. We know it's implied he is stronger than Beerus, and Broly is implied to be stronger than Beerus, the difference being that Broly came after Jiren and promotional material recognizes him multiple times as the strongest foe they have ever fought.

Not having absolute certainty about Broly's superiority does not constitute a contradiction. He still ultimately believes Broly is most likely stronger than Beerus, and the promotional material broadens it to being stronger than anyone. I don't see a real discrepancy here unless you are going to be pedantic about this tiny piece of dialogue.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, the rumors were true. I don't think anybody is disputing that, it appears obvious that is the case. It is just that if 110 Jiren>GoDs, then that would mean Full-power Jiren>>>>>>>>>>GoDs, which clearly isn't the case. Both Broly and Jiren are at least within the same level of the GoDs.


Sure, the film takes precedence, but it doesn't contradict the promotional material, so there's no reason to disregard the promotional material.

Yes, I know that suppressed Jiren is not at the GoDs level (the way I wrote it implied the opposite), the point here is only that Jiren is unquestionably more powerful than Beerus (before breaking his limits), while Broly it's just '' probably '' stronger than the last, and despite that being more sure of '' maybe '', it's still not absolute certainty, unlike Jiren. This basically puts Jiren stronger

In some promotional material it is said that Broly is the strongest enemy, while in the movie Goku says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. These things contradict each other, because Broly can not be the stronger enemy if Goku is not sure if he is stronger than Beerus, who is not even his strongest enemy (while Jiren is definitely stronger, as I said). In this case, the movie has more value

I mean, Jiren was never directly compared to Beerus either. We know it's implied he is stronger than Beerus, and Broly is implied to be stronger than Beerus, the difference being that Broly came after Jiren and promotional material recognizes him multiple times as the strongest foe they have ever fought.

Not having absolute certainty about Broly's superiority does not constitute a contradiction. He still ultimately believes Broly is most likely stronger than Beerus, and the promotional material broadens it to being stronger than anyone. I don't see a real discrepancy here unless you are going to be pedantic about this tiny piece of dialogue.

No, it is not implied that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, Whis himself says directly. Jiren is the human who surpasses a GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. So, Jiren is proven to be more powerful.

Promotional material is not adding information, it is conflicting with the movie. Goku is comparing Broly to someone who isn't the most powerful foe he has faced, and he doesn't even know for sure. If he were the strongest enemy, as the magazine says, then he should be compared to someone who is proven to be the strongest.

Not to mention that the movie is the closest view we have of Toriyama,, not magazines. If Goku doesn't say anything about Broly being the strongest in the movie, and only compares to Beerus and not to Jiren, then there's no reason to believe that he's really the strongest.

I'm not denying that Broly can be stronger than Beerus, I'm just saying that this was never said as an absolute certainty by Goku. There is a big difference between being stronger and '' probably '' being stronger, and this '' probably '' was never used for Jiren

[PFM18]

No, it is not implied that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, Whis himself says directly. Jiren is the human who surpasses a GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus. So, Jiren is proven to be more powerful.

That's not a direct comparison. It's an implication from the dialogue. And it was disputed. I'm not saying that it isn't obviously evidence that Jiren>Beerus, but we don't have a direct statement comparing Beerus to Jiren to compare the corresponding statement with Broly to.

Promotional material is not adding information, it is conflicting with the movie. Goku is comparing Broly to someone who isn't the most powerful foe he has faced, and he doesn't even know for sure. If he were the strongest enemy, as the magazine says, then he should be compared to someone who is proven to be the strongest.

It's not conflicting at all. There's no real indication that is inhibiting Broly>everyone they've faced from being true based on the dialogue. Using the word "probably" doesn't completely change the connotation of the statement. If there wasn't promotional material repeatedly saying that Broly>everyone, then this would be up for debate based on the verbatim. But we are left to simply give the benefit of the doubt to Broly in this situation.

Not to mention that the movie is the closest view we have of Toriyama,, not magazines. If Goku doesn't say anything about Broly being the strongest in the movie, and only compares to Beerus and not to Jiren, then there's no reason to believe that he's really the strongest.

You don't think Toriyama is consulted in any of the posters, magazines or the light Novel? Especially the light Novel which we now know features Freeza saying Broly is the strongest he's fought.

I'm not denying that Broly can be stronger than Beerus, I'm just saying that this was never said as an absolute certainty by Goku. There is a big difference between being stronger and '' probably '' being stronger, and this '' probably '' was never used for Jiren

I'm aware of that. You're holding onto such a specific verbatim that I doubt was meant to be that much. And again, we don't have a one-to-one comparison to make because we don't have a corresponding statement for Jiren just directly comparing the two characters.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That's not a direct comparison. It's an implication from the dialogue. And it was disputed. I'm not saying that it isn't obviously evidence that Jiren>Beerus, but we don't have a direct statement comparing Beerus to Jiren to compare the corresponding statement with Broly to.

If this, as you said, is already evidence that Jiren> Beerus, then we do not need any statement comparing specifically the power of the two, because we already know the result.

If Jiren> some GoD
And this GoD> Beerus

So the power difference between Jiren and Beerus not only exists (unquestionably), but is considerable. This simply does not exist when we talk about Broly, since Broly> or = Beerus according to Goku. Broly's power isn't enough to put him definitely above Beerus, but that of Jiren yes, that is clear evidence.

It's not conflicting at all. There's no real indication that is inhibiting Broly>everyone they've faced from being true based on the dialogue. Using the word "probably" doesn't completely change the connotation of the statement. If there wasn't promotional material repeatedly saying that Broly>everyone, then this would be up for debate based on the verbatim. But we are left to simply give the benefit of the doubt to Broly in this situation.

Yes there is. Like I said, if Broly's power is not enough to put him definitely not even above someone who is not Goku's strongest enemy then he's not the strongest of them all. It is compared only to someone inferior to Jiren, so it can not be stronger than the last.

It is not necessary to stick to this specific dialogue, the context already shows that this does not imply that Broly is stronger than Jiren.

You don't think Toriyama is consulted in any of the posters, magazines or the light Novel? Especially the light Novel which we now know features Freeza saying Broly is the strongest he's fought.

It is very subjective to say what Toriyama approved or not. He supposedly approve manga and anime stuff, but he simply ignored SSB KK and SSBE because they were not his ideas. The fact that in promotional materials is said something does not mean that is what he thinks. Therefore, the film, where he played a part in the script, is the source that has the most value in relation to magazines and light novels, in which he has no direct participation.

The point is, in the movie we do not have these lines from the magazine and from Novel, which can mean a lot about that.

[Sora Saiyan]

It’s looking likely that this movie is using a power similar to what the manga had shown for Jirens FP.
I think when it came to Jiren in the anime he was hyped up far too much. The manga hyped him up a little too, but there’s no statements which allude to Jiren being stronger than the likes of Vegetto when he’s massively suppressed (he’s never implied to be that strong in the manga I believe), and then with the hype implying he’s greater than all the GoD with his regular FP he then gets a monstrous power up which makes it undeniable when coupled with everything else.
We know he’s stronger than Belmod in both continuities, but in the mangas Beerus lost in an arm wrestle (btw this doesn’t mean you’d lose in a fight) to Quitela. Also the GoD match showed him as the most powerful, or second most. Lastly Jiren didn’t get another power up to rocket him even higher.

This all helps give room for Broly being stronger than Jiren in the mangas continuity. Jiren was definitely above Beerus in the anime IMO.

[Galan007]

So, base Broly ~ SSJ1 Vegeta. However, when Broly went from base to Ikari(which was stated to be equal in power to Oozaru), he was immediately capable of steamrolling SSG Vegeta.

So is Broly's Ikari/Oozaru amp FAR beyond 10x, or is the SSG multiplier simply FAR less than has always been suspected?

[TheSaiyanGod]

It’s looking likely that this movie is using a power similar to what the manga had shown for Jirens FP.
I think when it came to Jiren in the anime he was hyped up far too much. The manga hyped him up a little too, but there’s no statements which allude to Jiren being stronger than the likes of Vegetto when he’s massively suppressed (he’s never implied to be that strong in the manga I believe), and then with the hype implying he’s greater than all the GoD with his regular FP he then gets a monstrous power up which makes it undeniable when coupled with everything else.
We know he’s stronger than Belmod in both continuities, but in the mangas Beerus lost in an arm wrestle (btw this doesn’t mean you’d lose in a fight) to Quitela. Also the GoD match showed him as the most powerful, or second most. Lastly Jiren didn’t get another power up to rocket him even higher.

This all helps give room for Broly being stronger than Jiren in the mangas continuity. Jiren was definitely above Beerus in the anime IMO.

Vermoud in the manga, next to Beerus and Quitela, was one of the only ones not to be defeated (he pretended, at the end of the fight he was smiling). And he was also able to arrest all the gods (including Beerus himself) with his technique, so I would say that it is safe to say that he is in the same realm of power as Beerus and other GoDs.

Although it is not said explicitly that Jiren is stronger than Beerus as in the anime, in the manga this is strongly implied, so I would not put Jiren below Broly in the continuity of the manga.

So, base Broly ~ SSJ1 Vegeta. However, when Broly went from base to Ikari(which was stated to be equal in power to Oozaru), he was immediately capable of steamrolling SSG Vegeta.

So is Broly's Ikari/Oozaru amp FAR beyond 10x, or is the SSG multiplier simply FAR less than has always been suspected?

Well, it would not make any sense that SSG was only 10x stronger than SSJ considering that the transformation was always considered a realm of power totally different from regular SSJ.

So to be honest, Rage Broly initially was not able to land any hits on SSG Vegeta. And even after he increased his power, SSG Goku was still able to deflect his attacks and counterattack. Only later, when Broly got even stronger, did he defeat Goku. So I would say that only his 10x power up was not enough to beat SSG, he needed more.

[Galan007]

Ikari Broly initially seemed a good bit stronger than SSG Vegeta, imo. What with tanking his punch without even flinching(and this was after Vegeta had sensed Broly's spike in ki, so there would've been no reason for him to be pulling his punches), and sending him hurling across the battlefield with the strikes he landed. At the very least, Ikari Broly seemed very close to SSG Vegeta's level, which again, doesn't make sense if Ikari/Oozaru is still only a 10x amp.