Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:02 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:13 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:23 pm And?

We don't know how his Halo works. For all we know it's "HP" got brought down to 0 so it broke.
Okay, so it's just a coincidence that Merged Zamasu's halo broke after being overpowered completely.

The fact is that Merged Zamasu toyed with them initially and yet in the end, the Saiyans forced Merged Zamasu to fully exert himself and changed his aura of confidence to sheer humiliation. That suggests a massive power growth and we have statements that accompany this too.
I just don't see it.

We had many proper clear cut (without a shadow of doubt) confirmations in the past when someone grows stronger but never here.

We don't know how strong (if it even has a power level) that bird is so defeating it means nothing in comparison to Fused Zamasu. Also the way they defeat it is similar to how they defeat Meta Cooler. They brute force it by never letting up the pressure and the bird eventually cracked. Just like the first Meta Cooler is destroyed. No power up needed.

Vegeta and Trunks overpowered Fused Zamasu simply because it was 2 vs 1 and Fused Zamasu underestimated them. No power up needed.

Goku did it by himself with a limit breaking attack that cost him his arms. Nothing wrong with that, we have seen many instances of this in the past like with Gohan (Vs Super Cell), Piccolo (Vs Saonel and Pirina) and many others. No power up needed.

Kaioken is tricky since yeah, it was never said which version Goku used but if we combine the preview that said Goku will do a life risking attack on the episode with what Kaio told him (he flat out says that the Kaioken X10 version was the one that was dangerous) then we have a very good idea which one he used.

I do believe Goku with Kaioken X10 is stronger than Fused Zamasu so I guess he did get overpowered by Goku but I do not believe at all that him and Vegeta grew stronger than Rose Black in Blue. Not until the Broly movie.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:13 am

Is this fella Angel-tier?
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:28 am

He should, low Angel-tier though. He still shouldn't be that great using UI when Goku really isn't. A more versed UI user, like Whis, should still be above him, no matter how much raw power Vegito might have.

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:11 pm

All characters have explosive power.

Zamasu was kicked to the curb and even with Goku on the floor, he still needed to summon more power to deal with them.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:36 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:02 am I just don't see it.

We had many proper clear cut (without a shadow of doubt) confirmations in the past when someone grows stronger but never here.

We don't know how strong (if it even has a power level) that bird is so defeating it means nothing in comparison to Fused Zamasu. Also the way they defeat it is similar to how they defeat Meta Cooler. They brute force it by never letting up the pressure and the bird eventually cracked. Just like the first Meta Cooler is destroyed. No power up needed.

Vegeta and Trunks overpowered Fused Zamasu simply because it was 2 vs 1 and Fused Zamasu underestimated them. No power up needed.

Goku did it by himself with a limit breaking attack that cost him his arms. Nothing wrong with that, we have seen many instances of this in the past like with Gohan (Vs Super Cell), Piccolo (Vs Saonel and Pirina) and many others. No power up needed.

Kaioken is tricky since yeah, it was never said which version Goku used but if we combine the preview that said Goku will do a life risking attack on the episode with what Kaio told him (he flat out says that the Kaioken X10 version was the one that was dangerous) then we have a very good idea which one he used.

I do believe Goku with Kaioken X10 is stronger than Fused Zamasu so I guess he did get overpowered by Goku but I do not believe at all that him and Vegeta grew stronger than Rose Black in Blue. Not until the Broly movie.
The confirmation we received is no different than the confirmation we received when Goku had a rage boost against Goku Black and Zamasu in which there is no explicit statement that conveys to us that Goku was stronger. We know he powered up because he blatantly overpowered a duo that he previously could not. Likewise, we know Goku and Vegeta became stronger because they overpowered a being that they couldn't previously. Context makes this clear to us. Not every instance in Dragon Ball is going to clarify this. Even Krillin and Gohan's power-ups were ambiguous to the reader as they battled on Namek. Android 18 had an inexplicit power-up that is recognized in the Moro Arc even though that's not stated because her feats speak for themselves. The argument that AT explicitly tells us that a character has powered up is completely bogus because we know that's not true.

Vegeta and Trunks were both required to fend off Merged Zamasu, but Vegeta also was attempting to fend off against Merged Zamasu with Goku. Merged Zamasu was holding back against Goku and Vegeta whereas Merged Zamasu was clearly exerting more effort, hence his constant yelling and grimacing, and Vegeta and Trunks successfully overpowered the blast. We know Vegeta played a huge role in that as the narrative suggests it. Vegeta's resolve to protect Trunks would have presumably led to a significant power-up as Saiyans are empowered by their emotions. Vegeta also raves about the potential of Saiyans during their energy clash, so the idea that only Trunks was impactful in that clash would be ludicrous.

Goku used Kaioken to put Merged Zamasu down for good, but he still overpowered Merged Zamasu with just a standard Kamehameha. Merged Zamasu was using his full power at that instance and Goku still overpowered the blast. Prior, Merged Zamasu nonchalantly dealt with both Goku and Vegeta. That's a massive disparity that shouldn't be ignored. Merged Zamasu blatantly overpowered Goku and Vegeta before with virtually no effort whereas in the end, immortality was key to Merged Zamasu's victory against Goku on his lonesome.

The last is flat-out wrong. SSJB Vegeta (122) already surpassed SSJB KKx20 Goku (Ep. 110), so by your logic, he was already stronger than Initial Merged Zamasu.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:36 am The confirmation we received is no different than the confirmation we received when Goku had a rage boost against Goku Black and Zamasu in which there is no explicit statement that conveys to us that Goku was stronger. We know he powered up because he blatantly overpowered a duo that he previously could not. Likewise, we know Goku and Vegeta became stronger because they overpowered a being that they couldn't previously. Context makes this clear to us. Not every instance in Dragon Ball is going to clarify this. Even Krillin and Gohan's power-ups were ambiguous to the reader as they battled on Namek. Android 18 had an inexplicit power-up that is recognized in the Moro Arc even though that's not stated because her feats speak for themselves. The argument that AT explicitly tells us that a character has powered up is completely bogus because we know that's not true.

Vegeta and Trunks were both required to fend off Merged Zamasu, but Vegeta also was attempting to fend off against Merged Zamasu with Goku. Merged Zamasu was holding back against Goku and Vegeta whereas Merged Zamasu was clearly exerting more effort, hence his constant yelling and grimacing, and Vegeta and Trunks successfully overpowered the blast. We know Vegeta played a huge role in that as the narrative suggests it. Vegeta's resolve to protect Trunks would have presumably led to a significant power-up as Saiyans are empowered by their emotions. Vegeta also raves out the potential of Saiyans during their energy clash, so the idea that only Trunks was impactful in that clash would be ludicrous.

Goku used Kaioken to put Merged Zamasu down for good, but he still overpowered Merged Zamasu with just a standard Kamehameha. Merged Zamasu was using his full power at that instance and Goku still overpowered the blast. Prior, Merged Zamasu nonchalantly dealt with both Goku and Vegeta. That's a massive disparity that shouldn't be ignored. Merged Zamasu blatantly overpowered Goku and Vegeta before with virtually no effort whereas in the end, immortality was key to Merged Zamasu's victory against Goku on his lonesome.

The last is flat-out wrong. SSJB Vegeta (122) already surpassed SSJB KKx20 Goku (Ep. 110), so by your logic, he was already stronger than Initial Merged Zamasu.
Goku Black confirms later on that Goku grew stronger by rage. Gohan and Krillin also get confirmation from Vegeta that they are growing stronger while fighting Freeza. I don't think there's a single power up without a statement in the original manga. 18 getting a power up in the Moro arc is never confirmed. It's headcanon.

Goku didn't put Zamasu down for good... What? He barely damaged him. Hell, you can debate that Zamasu's ball exploding on his face did the most damage to him. Lol at "standard" Kamehameha. That Kamehameha was the biggest he has ever done for the simple fact that it left his arms useless afterwards. A first for the franchise.

Again, no statement was made about it. In the entire ToP there's not a single statement that says Goku and Vegeta grew more powerful outside of their new forms. SSB Vegeta > SSB KKX10 Goku is a ridiculous notion that it's not even worth entertaining.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:04 am

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 am Goku Black confirms later on that Goku grew stronger by rage. Gohan and Krillin also get confirmation from Vegeta that they are growing stronger while fighting Freeza. I don't think there's a single power up without a statement in the original manga. 18 getting a power up in the Moro arc is never confirmed. It's headcanon.

Goku didn't put Zamasu down for good... What? He barely damaged him. Hell, you can debate that Zamasu's ball exploding on his face did the most damage to him. Lol at "standard" Kamehameha. That Kamehameha was the biggest he has ever done for the simple fact that it left his arms useless afterwards. A first for the franchise.

Again, no statement was made about it. In the entire ToP there's not a single statement that says Goku and Vegeta grew more powerful outside of their new forms. SSB Vegeta > SSB KKX10 Goku is a ridiculous notion that it's not even worth entertaining.
That's false. Goku Black doesn't provide a definitive statement at all, neither does Vegeta as it's completely ambiguous as to how powerful Gohan and Krillin actually are. And in fact, it's not even suggested that Gohan and Krillin became stronger as they fought Ginyu, nor is it in fact stated that Vegeta got stronger as he was watching Goku fight the Ginyu force. The latter was clearly confirmed later on, but we know that Vegeta got stronger as he watched Goku's movements as it is implied without a power statement and with context provided by the story. Android 18 was battling on par with 17, so she had to have gotten stronger? Am I missing something here or are you denying canon feats now?

Okay. I'm not seeing a rebuttal here so there is nothing to address. Ki attacks are contingent upon the user's power. That has always been the case. Provide a substantial argument and I'll have something to address.

How is it a ridiculous notion? Isn't that what Goku did against Hit? He was capable of battling a much stronger Hit without Kaioken despite requiring Kaioken x10 during their first battle. Why is this ridiculous?

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:49 am

People here are missing the obvious.

If Goku and Vegeta could harm a jobbing Fused Zamasu, then Goku Black also could. Since he was stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at the time of fusing, and could have killed them at any time; but chose to spare them in order to use them as foil for his own personal evolution.

Especially since Black clearly had far more potential than Goku and Vegeta in terms of Zenkai boosts and the like.

So in short, everything Goku and Vegeta can do, Black can also do it and better. But obviously the inverse is not true. Since Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Black at the time of Fusion.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:38 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:49 am People here are missing the obvious.

If Goku and Vegeta could harm a jobbing Fused Zamasu, then Goku Black also could. Since he was stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at the time of fusing, and could have killed them at any time; but chose to spare them in order to use them as foil for his own personal evolution.

Especially since Black clearly had far more potential than Goku and Vegeta in terms of Zenkai boosts and the like.

So in short, everything Goku and Vegeta can do, Black can also do it and better. But obviously the inverse is not true. Since Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Black at the time of Fusion.
They couldn't. That's why we are arguing that they evidently got stronger.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:55 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:38 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:49 am People here are missing the obvious.

If Goku and Vegeta could harm a jobbing Fused Zamasu, then Goku Black also could. Since he was stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at the time of fusing, and could have killed them at any time; but chose to spare them in order to use them as foil for his own personal evolution.

Especially since Black clearly had far more potential than Goku and Vegeta in terms of Zenkai boosts and the like.

So in short, everything Goku and Vegeta can do, Black can also do it and better. But obviously the inverse is not true. Since Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Black at the time of Fusion.
They couldn't. That's why we are arguing that they evidently got stronger.
What you're saying doesn't make much sense.

First of all we don't know how strong Black was specifically, only that his strength surpassed his own understanding (as per Black's statement). We also know that Black was holding back significantly, since, as per his own admission, he was purposefully keeping the two Saiyans alive, refraining from fighting them, because he wanted to keep them around for his own personal evolution. We never saw Black at full power, after he created the scythe.

We also know from Vegeta's statement that Fused Zamasu was jobbing the entire time, "taking his sweet time", "toying with them".

All of this, coupled with the lack of statements about Goku and Vegeta getting a power increase that would somehow push them from fodder to Black to above Black (this would have been stated if it was the case), we cannot conclude that the Saiyans surpassed Black in episode 65.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:14 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:55 pm
What you're saying doesn't make much sense.

First of all we don't know how strong Black was specifically, only that his strength surpassed his own understanding (as per Black's statement). We also know that Black was holding back significantly, since, as per his own admission, he was purposefully keeping the two Saiyans alive, refraining from fighting them, because he wanted to keep them around for his own personal evolution. We never saw Black at full power, after he created the scythe.

We also know from Vegeta's statement that Fused Zamasu was jobbing the entire time, "taking his sweet time", "toying with them".

All of this, coupled with the lack of statements about Goku and Vegeta getting a power increase that would somehow push them from fodder to Black to above Black (this would have been stated if it was the case), we cannot conclude that the Saiyans surpassed Black in episode 65.
Statements aren't the only concrete evidence. Feats also serve as quantifiable evidence. Regardless, we have Goku claiming that they will and need to get stronger to fight Merged Zamasu. Vegeta claims that Saiyans have no limits and Goku responds affirmatively to that claim. The feats presented to us along with those statements provide enough of an explanation as to why Merged Zamasu was being forced back despite giving it his all, whereas prior, he was simply toying with them.

Aside from that, Goku Black and Zamasu have expressed multiple times that they were aiming to kill the Saiyans despite Goku Black's personal evolution. Thus, that isn't really evidence of anything.

Multiple statements place Merged Zamasu (Suppressed) significantly above Goku Black. Merged Zamasu claims that he will display the true "light" of a god, Vegeta claims that he's never experienced an energy as powerful as Merged Zamasu's, and Gowasu confirms that Merged Zamasu has become much, much stronger. What you are claiming by suggesting that Goku Black is still stronger than them despite the Saiyans overpowering someone many times stronger makes absolutely no sense at all.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm

There could still be a possibility that Goku Black could surpass the initial powerlevel that Merged Zamasu used, if stimulated enough, as he was able to turn the tables on Goku and Vegeta several times after they also broke their limits.

The situation is that he never had the opportunity to test that. Though I would say it’s a given that Merged Zamasu extended his potential further.

I think SSR Goku Black vs. SSB Goku (+ kaioken) would be a good match.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:04 pm

There is severe downplaying of (primarily) Goku Black and Fused Zamasu going on here.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:14 pm What you are claiming by suggesting that Goku Black is still stronger than them despite the Saiyans overpowering someone many times stronger makes absolutely no sense at all.
And this is where you're wrong, because you're ignoring a small yet at the same time key detail about Fused Zamasu.

He was jobbing for the vast majority of the fight.

As noted by Vegeta, Fused Zamasu was "toying with them" and "taking his sweet time". This is proven many times throughout the episode, where Fused Zamasu is blatantly and undeniably acting cocky and arrogant, not taking his opponents seriously. It was also explicitly noted by Vegeta that F. Zamasu was simply "sitting pretty", "grinning", while "toying" with them.

The only time F. Zamasu was clearly shown pressured and putting some effort, was in the beam struggle against Goku. And not only 1) Goku had to use a life-risking move just to push back Zamasu's strongest attack, which caused his arms to literally break, but also 2) He lost the fight since at the end he was unable to even stand up, while F. Zamasu was flying and still overflowing with power.

Even during the Father-Son Galick Gun, F. Zamasu was clearly, and undeniably, underestimating the situation, not even unleashing a significant portion of his power. Why would he? He thought Trunks was fodder, he would only use a small fraction of his power to deal with the fodder. He was clearly surprised his attack was pushed back; and, angered, proceeded to oneshot Vegeta from SSB straight back to Base form, breaking his armour in the process.

So, TL;DR Obviously I am not saying that Goku Black is stronger or even remotely comparable to Fused Zamasu. What I am saying and is proven, is that the [jobbing] Fused Zamasu, while having access to Black's vast power (due to Black being half of the Combined Zamasu), was obviously not using that power fully, since he was heavily suppressing himself and jobbing. And thus, the Saiyans' feats against him don't make them stronger than Black.

Thereby, the feats you found are not impressive. They are feats against an opponent who is jobbing and clearly suppressing himself. I guarantee you that if F. Zamasu used even half of his real power, then all 3 Saiyans would have been dead within 5 seconds of the episode.

So in short I have no problem accepting that the Saiyans have feats against F. Zamasu, but saying just that is completely erasing context. They have feats against a jobbing F. Zamasu, who was clearly and severely underestimating them.

So Black IS still stronger than them. He too would be able to harm a severely suppressed and jobbing F. Zamasu. Of course he gets erased by a being who is essentially himself plus another Zamasu, but Fused Zamasu was not using his full power, not in the slightest.

What you're doing right now is ignoring the entire narrative surrounding those feats. A narrative in which Fused Zamasu is undeniably portrayed as the biggest jobber DBS has ever seen. He clearly had the power to erase all 3 of them, since those 3 were already weaklings to Black. He didn't do it because, as Vegeta stated, he wanted to toy with them. Because that's who Zamaus is as a character, an extremely arrogant and overconfident fighter, who constantly underestimates the ningens. Since Fused Zamasu is actually Zamasu^2, the arrogance and overconfidence were increased exponentially as well.

You would be right only and exclusively if Fused Zamasu was going all out, using at least a large portion of his power. But that was clearly not the case (until Vegito came in).
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm I think SSR Goku Black vs. SSB Goku (+ kaioken) would be a good match.
Gowasu saw the fight between Goku and Hit at the U6 Tournament, he knew Goku could use Kaioken, and he still stated that Goku Black was the "most powerful". I'd say it's pretty obvious Black beats him, likely through a combination of clones (created by the rift) plus his own unleashed power. This time Black would have to step in himself to beat him, instead of relying solely on his clones.

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:44 pm

Goku went from being fodder to Goku Black to being stronger than him before. Nobody doubts that.

Of course people will say "But this" and "But that" but there was never any statement from anybody that Goku had grown stronger which apparently according to comments here is a necessity now.

Its all very simple, if Goku can overpower Zamasu who most certainly wasn't caught off guard or playing around as he was putting in real effort then he can certainly overpower Goku Black.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm I think SSR Goku Black vs. SSB Goku (+ kaioken) would be a good match.
Gowasu saw the fight between Goku and Hit at the U6 Tournament, he knew Goku could use Kaioken, and he still stated that Goku Black was the "most powerful". I'd say it's pretty obvious Black beats him, likely through a combination of clones (created by the rift) plus his own unleashed power. This time Black would have to step in himself to beat him, instead of relying solely on his clones.
The scenario I’m proposing is considering the level of kaioken Goku used against Merged Zamasu, which incited him to power-up more. And Goku Black at his limit if he could surpass Merged Zamasu’s initial level, like Goku did.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:00 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:31 pm I think SSR Goku Black vs. SSB Goku (+ kaioken) would be a good match.
Gowasu saw the fight between Goku and Hit at the U6 Tournament, he knew Goku could use Kaioken, and he still stated that Goku Black was the "most powerful". I'd say it's pretty obvious Black beats him, likely through a combination of clones (created by the rift) plus his own unleashed power. This time Black would have to step in himself to beat him, instead of relying solely on his clones.
The scenario I’m proposing is considering the level of kaioken Goku used against Merged Zamasu, which incited him to power-up more. And Goku Black at his limit if he could surpass Merged Zamasu’s initial level, like Goku did.
We already see what happens when an enraged Goku gets the upper-hand on Black. All he does is make him stronger. Black (and by extension F. Zamasu) is one of a kind, able to get stronger through every hit he receives and the pain from those hits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_4ZnSc ... rahimJohar

The same thing would happen here, except Black might end up learning how to activate Kaioken, by fighting Goku in that state. Black after all has Goku's body and, more importantly, was a North Kai just like the creator of tha technique.

Another thing to note is that Black was implicitly confident he could beat Kaioken Goku, or anyway was solidly on his level. He watched the U6 fight with Gowasu, so he saw Kaioken Goku; and yet he sent Zamasu to torture and kill Trunks and co., so that Goku and Vegeta would get an immense power boost/new form (?, maybe he thought they'd straight up unlock a new form), which in turn would increase Black's own strength. Meaning that he was dissatisfied with the Saiyans' current power, and didn't think they had much to offer him.

So in other words, Black looked at Goku, KNOWING (from the Godtube video) THAT HE CAN USE KAIOKEN, and thought to himself "Eh, these two are too weak right now to make me stronger, I'll send Zamasu to kill their loved ones so that they can become stronger opponents for me to fight", the implications of this narrative are clear.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:41 pm

That requires one to assume Black can power-up indefinitely. Yet Merged Zamasu wasn’t able to surpass Vegetto, so I wouldn’t be so sure Black could still power-up that much without sacrificing his balance.

Besides, it didn’t seem like Zamasu knew about kaioken, and we don’t even know if he watched the footage of Goku vs. Hit on its entirety.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:45 pm

Fused Zamasu ended up becoming an Infinite Omniversal being that could only be defeated by Zeno.

It was made clear at the beginning by F. Zamasu himself that his body could "infinitely increase in strength".

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5900
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:24 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:41 pm That requires one to assume Black can power-up indefinitely. Yet Merged Zamasu wasn’t able to surpass Vegetto, so I wouldn’t be so sure Black could still power-up that much without sacrificing his balance.

Besides, it didn’t seem like Zamasu knew about kaioken, and we don’t even know if he watched the footage of Goku vs. Hit on its entirety.
He can't. He reached his limit by episode 61. After that he needs anger to grow stronger. I guess he would have used anger again to grow stronger once Goku and Vegeta surpassed him in episode 64.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:23 pm

That is an interesting point? I guess Goku Black did reach his "natural" limits and came to the realization that Saiyans break those limits through their emotions? Though, I suppose once he shattered his own limits, his own "natural" limits should increase as a result similar to how Guru's ritual worked on both Gohan and Krillin.

Post Reply