Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Skar
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed May 26, 2021 12:16 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:15 pm How strong, do you guys think, Granola was before powering up to fight UI SSB Goku?? (damn, finally the day came when I said those words).

And who is the strongest UI SSG Goku could defeat? what about Merged Zamasu, who was CSSB tier. Could current SSG Goku using his instinct, as Vegeta put it, be FT arc CSSB tier?
Could UI SSG Goku take on Ikari Broly? what about SS Broly?
Did the chapter imply using UI as a technique with another form makes it stronger? I just thought it was to help increase his speed and reaction time but the power of the form might still be the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed May 26, 2021 3:54 pm

Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:16 am
Koitsukai wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:15 pm How strong, do you guys think, Granola was before powering up to fight UI SSB Goku?? (damn, finally the day came when I said those words).

And who is the strongest UI SSG Goku could defeat? what about Merged Zamasu, who was CSSB tier. Could current SSG Goku using his instinct, as Vegeta put it, be FT arc CSSB tier?
Could UI SSG Goku take on Ikari Broly? what about SS Broly?
Did the chapter imply using UI as a technique with another form makes it stronger? I just thought it was to help increase his speed and reaction time but the power of the form might still be the same.
Honestly, raw power shouldn't change. But the speed and oomph of the attacks should improve significantly, at least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed May 26, 2021 8:04 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:15 pm How strong, do you guys think, Granola was before powering up to fight UI SSB Goku?? (damn, finally the day came when I said those words).

And who is the strongest UI SSG Goku could defeat? what about Merged Zamasu, who was CSSB tier. Could current SSG Goku using his instinct, as Vegeta put it, be FT arc CSSB tier?
Could UI SSG Goku take on Ikari Broly? what about SS Broly?
There doesn't seem to be enough information on this yet, but it seems like the chapter implies that Goku's base form in conjunction with UI is somewhat comparable to Vegeta's SS form (and himself in SS without UI, by proxy). As such, it could be reasonable to assume that Goku's form + UI is at the same level as the immediate subsequent form without it. So, in essence, SS Goku + UI would be comparable to himself in SS2; SS2 + UI would be comparable to SS3, and so on.

With that said, I think some scaling can be extracted from it. I doubt we'll gain more information on where specifically Goku's forms rank in comparison to previous characters now. As Hugo Boss said, I think placing SSG + UI at around the same level as SSB-tier threats would be accurate, so around original Hit and Golden Freeza's battle powers perhaps, or higher depending on how strong you think Goku got throughout Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm

So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu May 27, 2021 9:16 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Cranberry could be weaker than Raditz though, who was nothing compared to the other two Saiyans but may still have been of note in Freeza’s ranks generally.

Cranberry could be between 1,000 (extrapolating from the initial reading of the Namekian warriors he and the other mooks are so confident about taking down even without Dodoria’s help) or so and Raditz.

Jaco is also afraid to take on an adult Saiyan during his own series, and equipped with tech to help make his arrests, so I don’t know that extrapolating from Cranberry is enough to peg him quite that high.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri May 28, 2021 6:14 am

Cipher wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 9:16 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Cranberry could be weaker than Raditz though, who was nothing compared to the other two Saiyans but may still have been of note in Freeza’s ranks generally.

Cranberry could be between 1,000 (extrapolating from the initial reading of the Namekian warriors he and the other mooks are so confident about taking down even without Dodoria’s help) or so and Raditz.

Jaco is also afraid to take on an adult Saiyan during his own series, and equipped with tech to help make his arrests, so I don’t know that extrapolating from Cranberry is enough to peg him quite that high.
TBF, that was decades ago and nothing says Jaco stood the same strength. Also, the only tech Jaco had in his manga was the Genocide Bomb which wouldn't kill a Saiyan, but the population so they wouldn't suffer.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri May 28, 2021 7:50 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Nice catch.

I suppose Jaco might have made the arrest bit attacked him as part of a squad or cranberry was tired from fleeing all the time.... But yeah the implication is Jaco took him.

But yeah between 1000 and 3000 puts him above Raditz which is stronger than adult or teen Goku so the implication must be Jaco got stronger. I like that. He's strong enough to not get blown away by the sheer force of the super era fights but not strong enough to help.

Before his best feat was some Freeza mooks in some versions of Rof but the army was weaker at that point so it's hard to say
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri May 28, 2021 8:08 am

TobyS wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:50 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Nice catch.

I suppose Jaco might have made the arrest bit attacked him as part of a squad or cranberry was tired from fleeing all the time.... But yeah the implication is Jaco took him.

But yeah between 1000 and 3000 puts him above Raditz which is stronger than adult or teen Goku so the implication must be Jaco got stronger. I like that. He's strong enough to not get blown away by the sheer force of the super era fights but not strong enough to help.

Before his best feat was some Freeza mooks in some versions of Rof but the army was weaker at that point so it's hard to say
Jaco was directly compared to Kuririn in RF so it always struck me that he was much stronger than the fandom thinks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri May 28, 2021 11:12 am

Yuji wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:08 am
TobyS wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:50 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Nice catch.

I suppose Jaco might have made the arrest bit attacked him as part of a squad or cranberry was tired from fleeing all the time.... But yeah the implication is Jaco took him.

But yeah between 1000 and 3000 puts him above Raditz which is stronger than adult or teen Goku so the implication must be Jaco got stronger. I like that. He's strong enough to not get blown away by the sheer force of the super era fights but not strong enough to help.

Before his best feat was some Freeza mooks in some versions of Rof but the army was weaker at that point so it's hard to say
Jaco was directly compared to Kuririn in RF so it always struck me that he was much stronger than the fandom thinks.
Was he actually compared ? I thought he just ended up fighting alongside him at one point and only in 1 of the three versions for RoF.

It's strange if he was so weak at Jaco and already an adult, and yet he had to capacity to get as strong as someone who trained with kami, kaio and had a potential unlock that put him permanently above the formerly superior Tenshinhan who never stopped training...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri May 28, 2021 1:08 pm

I don't think Ultra Instinct used in conjunction with Goku's other forms necessarily makes him stronger raw power-wise, but essentially allows him to avoid attacks from stronger enemies. We saw this with Beerus and Roshi, and in both cases there is no indication that their level of power changed when they both used the pseudo UI (Kahseral still says that Roshi's power was "as low as dirt").

SSG Goku using this technique would probably be able to put a fight against enemies considerably beyond his scope, but I'm not sure if he would necessarily defeat SSB tier opponents for example

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 28, 2021 3:22 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 9:16 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 pm So I'm reading the manga and found out Cranberry has an extra chapter detailing his backstory. On it we learn Jaco is the one that arrests him after the Freeza arc. We can safely deduce now that Jaco is at least around 3,000 BP since Cranberry was an elite Freeza soldier who only got beat by those Namekian warriors Dodoria kills.

Very neat detail.
Cranberry could be weaker than Raditz though, who was nothing compared to the other two Saiyans but may still have been of note in Freeza’s ranks generally.

Cranberry could be between 1,000 (extrapolating from the initial reading of the Namekian warriors he and the other mooks are so confident about taking down even without Dodoria’s help) or so and Raditz.

Jaco is also afraid to take on an adult Saiyan during his own series, and equipped with tech to help make his arrests, so I don’t know that extrapolating from Cranberry is enough to peg him quite that high.
All the Freeza soldiers laughed at the 1,000 reading so I really doubt they are weaker than Raditz. Cranberry also survived a shot from one of the Namekians when they went full power.

2,000 - 2,500 seems accurate since he also killed Muri in the Moro arc.

Jaco definitely got stronger over the years since he took on the Freeza soldiers in RoF relatively well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat May 29, 2021 12:34 am

ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:22 pm All the Freeza soldiers laughed at the 1,000 reading so I really doubt they are weaker than Raditz. Cranberry also survived a shot from one of the Namekians when they went full power.

2,000 - 2,500 seems accurate since he also killed Muri in the Moro arc.

Jaco definitely got stronger over the years since he took on the Freeza soldiers in RoF relatively well.
A battle power difference of a few hundred is a big deal when they first come up in the series, and the goons have numbers on their side, so I don’t necessarily think the difference between them and the 1,000 reading has to be all that drastic.

As for Muri—logically he’d be less than 1,000, right? Since even before they powered up, the three Namekian warriors were the strongest readings in that village up to that point?

I’m not saying either Cranberry being stronger than Raditz or Jaco being at 3,000 are impossible. I just don’t think either is necessarily cemented by what we’re given in the series.

The Freeza soldiers in “F” are also supposed to be the dregs of the dregs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat May 29, 2021 4:36 am

Cipher wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 12:34 am
ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:22 pm All the Freeza soldiers laughed at the 1,000 reading so I really doubt they are weaker than Raditz. Cranberry also survived a shot from one of the Namekians when they went full power.

2,000 - 2,500 seems accurate since he also killed Muri in the Moro arc.

Jaco definitely got stronger over the years since he took on the Freeza soldiers in RoF relatively well.
A battle power difference of a few hundred is a big deal when they first come up in the series, and the goons have numbers on their side, so I don’t necessarily think the difference between them and the 1,000 reading has to be all that drastic.

As for Muri—logically he’d be less than 1,000, right? Since even before they powered up, the three Namekian warriors were the strongest readings in that village up to that point?

I’m not saying either Cranberry being stronger than Raditz or Jaco being at 3,000 are impossible. I just don’t think either is necessarily cemented by what we’re given in the series.

The Freeza soldiers in “F” are also supposed to be the dregs of the dregs.
Yeah. It was stated in Resurrection 'F' that remains of Frieza's army suck donkeys, which is why Frieza wasn't shocked when the Z-Fighters mopped them without killing anyone. Also remember that the reason why they brought Frieza back was because planets were rebelling and kicking them out and from we've seen in Z, a Power Level of 1000 was considered above average.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm

So it's safe to assume Granolah after the wish is still weaker than Beerus and all the gods of destruction?

But if Goku Ultra Instinct (silver hair) is stronger than Full Power Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond. Then that would mean Goku in UI is in the realm of the gods, which means Granolah is weaker than him since his wish only made him stronger than everybody but the gods.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:19 pm

Super Murjin wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm So it's safe to assume Granolah after the wish is still weaker than Beerus and all the gods of destruction?

But if Goku Ultra Instinct (silver hair) is stronger than Full Power Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond. Then that would mean Goku in UI is in the realm of the gods, which means Granolah is weaker than him since his wish only made him stronger than everybody but the gods.
Technically Granolah should be stronger than Goku when he defeated Moro. The dragon only emphasized that making Granolah stronger than the gods wouldn't enter in the package. So, if Goku happened to be stronger than a god that time, it should still be possible to make Granolah stronger than a god as well. In another hand, Goku and Vegeta are still not quite as strong as Beerus, so this event would only reinforce it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:44 pm

let's remember Shin is a God, too....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:19 pm
Super Murjin wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm So it's safe to assume Granolah after the wish is still weaker than Beerus and all the gods of destruction?

But if Goku Ultra Instinct (silver hair) is stronger than Full Power Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond. Then that would mean Goku in UI is in the realm of the gods, which means Granolah is weaker than him since his wish only made him stronger than everybody but the gods.
Technically Granolah should be stronger than Goku when he defeated Moro. The dragon only emphasized that making Granolah stronger than the gods wouldn't enter in the package. So, if Goku happened to be stronger than a god that time, it should still be possible to make Granolah stronger than a god as well. In another hand, Goku and Vegeta are still not quite as strong as Beerus, so this event would only reinforce it.
Probably not the case, but the Dragon did say that before he clarified that he can't grant that initial wish.

So Granolah's wish to become stronger by sacrificing his lifespan does not necessarily follow the dragon's previous limitations. But, of course, we'll see.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:49 am

Thani wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:49 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:19 pm
Super Murjin wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 pm So it's safe to assume Granolah after the wish is still weaker than Beerus and all the gods of destruction?

But if Goku Ultra Instinct (silver hair) is stronger than Full Power Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond. Then that would mean Goku in UI is in the realm of the gods, which means Granolah is weaker than him since his wish only made him stronger than everybody but the gods.
Technically Granolah should be stronger than Goku when he defeated Moro. The dragon only emphasized that making Granolah stronger than the gods wouldn't enter in the package. So, if Goku happened to be stronger than a god that time, it should still be possible to make Granolah stronger than a god as well. In another hand, Goku and Vegeta are still not quite as strong as Beerus, so this event would only reinforce it.
Probably not the case, but the Dragon did say that before he clarified that he can't grant that initial wish.

So Granolah's wish to become stronger by sacrificing his lifespan does not necessarily follow the dragon's previous limitations. But, of course, we'll see.
Actually, it should, since the scope of the wish is what Toronbo stated in the beginning of the chapter.

ankokudaishogun wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:44 pm let's remember Shin is a God, too....
Right. Granolah already demonstrated he can be stronger than at least this god. Despite that, I think Toronbo is referring to Beerus and Whis. If Goku happened to be stronger than either of them, perhaps Toronbo wouldn’t make this caveat, but it makes sense that his magic can’t overcome such overpowered beings. Let’s see how Granolah fares against Silver Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:12 am

So, could Shenron or Porunga make you stronger than the Gods? than Beerus at least? assuming Porunga is stronger than Toronbo, that is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:20 pm

THOUGHTS ???


DRAGON BALL POWER LEVELS


Zeno, Future Zeno, Zalama

?
Grand Priest

?
Zeno’s Attendants

15
Whis, Vados, Cognac, Awamo, Marcarita, Mojito, Cus, Cukatail, Korn, Martinu, Campari, Sour

14

13
Merus

12

11

10
Beerus, Champa, Sidra, Iwen, Helles, Mosco, Quitela, Arak, Liquir, Rumsshi, Gene, Belmond
Goku UI
Moro (Seven-Three/Merus absorbed), Moro (Seven-Three/Merus/Earth absorbed)
Vegetto SSB, Gogeta SSB
Jiren (Full Power)
Broly SSJFP

09
Goku UIO
Jiren
Moro (Full Power), Moro (Seven-Three absorbed)
Broly SSJ

08
Vegeta SSBE

07
Goku SSB, Vegeta SSB
Goku Black SSR
Merged Zamasu
Broly (Wrath State 2nd form)
Golden Frieza
Goku SSJ (Aura of a God), Toppo (Aura of a God)
Granolah (Greatest Warrior)

06
Goku SSG, Vegeta SSG, Yamoshi SSG
Goku Black SSJ (powering up)
Mr. Buu (after unlocking Dai Kaioshin's power)
Hit, Saganbo (w/ Moro's full magic boost), Moro (magic restored), Broly (Wrath State)

05

04
Goku (Aura of a God), Vegeta (Aura of a God), Goku Black (Aura of a God)
Kefla SSJFP
Vegetto SSJ, Gogeta SSJ
Frieza (after training)
Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed), Super Buu (Gotenks SSJ3 absorbed)
Ultimate Gohan (after training), Toppo

03
Goku SSJ3, Vegeta SSJ2 (rage), Future Trunks SSJ2 (rage), Gotenks SSJ3
Kale SSJFP
Vegetto, Gogeta, Kefla, Ultimate Gohan
Majin Buu, Super Buu, Super Buu (Piccolo absorbed), Mr. Buu
Anilaza, Dai Kaioshin, Saganbo (w/ Moro's magic boost), Uub (full power), Android 17 (after training), Dyspo

02
Goku SSJ2, Vegeta SSJ2, Gohan SSJ2
Super Perfect Cell, Dabura, Zamasu

01
Goku SSJ, Vegeta SSJ, Gohan SSJ, Future Trunks SSJ, Goten SSJ, Trunks SSJ, Cabba SSJ, Kale SSJ, Caulifla SSJ, Yamoshi SSJ, Gotenks SSJ, Future Gohan, Goku Black SSJ
King Cold, Frieza, Frost, Shisami (after training), Aka
Vuon, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kettol, Kunshi, Cocette
Perfect Cell, Android 16, Android 17, Android 18, Android 19, Android 20, Cell Jr
Shin, Kibito, Anato, Pell, Eyre, Kuru, Ogma, Fuwa, Fuwa’s Attendant, Iru, Roh, Gowasu, Khai, Agu, South Kaioshin, Elder Kaioshin
Piccolo (fused w/ Nail+Kami), Magetta, Pui Pui, Yakon, Ribrianne, Kakunsa, Rozie, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Rozel, Hyssop, Chappil, Comfrey, Obuni, Napapa, Mulithim, Damon, Gamisaras, Majora, Ganos, Shimorekka, Seven-Three, Yunba, Bikkura Quoitur, Zauyogi, Yuzun, Elec, Gas, Oil, Macki, Miza-Iwaza-Kikaza (Fusion), Majin Spopovich, Majin Yamu

00
Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks, Goten, Trunks, Future Gohan, Nappa, Raditz, Tarble, Bardock, Cabba, Kale, Caulifla, King Vegeta, Paragus, King Sadala, Yamoshi, Beets, Gine, Taro, Broly, Leek, Pan, King Vegeta's Majordomo, Moroko, Nion, Shito
Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Master Roshi, Yamcha, Grandpa Gohan, Uub, Fangs, Bandages, Akkuman, Invisible Man, Giran, Nam, Ranfan, Bacterian, Launch, King Chappa, Man-Wolf, Pamput, Spopovich, Yamu, Videl, Mr. Satan, Captain Chicken, Nok, Otokosuki, Nareg, Yamcha (Reincarnated), Chaozu (Oushou)
Captain Ginyu, Barta, Jeice, Guldo, Recoome, Zarbon, Dodoria, Appule, Kui, Saibaman, Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami, Cranberry, Lemo, Cheelai, Berryblue, Kikono, Avo, Cado, Garana, Daigen, Chidoru
King Piccolo, Piccolo, Drum, Tamborine, Cymbal, Piano, Nail, Pirina, Saonel, Dende, Monaito
Commander Red, General Blue, Buyon, Tao Pai Pai, Advisor Black, Android 8, General White, Sergeant Metallic, Sergeant-Major Purple, Colonel Silver, Colonel Violet,
Galactic King, Jaco, Irico, Calamis
Botamo, Dr. Rota, Vikal, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Jimeze, Zirloin, Prum, Hermila, The Preecho, Narirama, Maji Kayo, Katopesla, Bollarator, Koitsukai, Viara, Panchia, Paparoni, Nigrissi, Oregano, Sorrel, Hopp, Zium, Jilcol, Rubalt, Methiop, Murisarm, Jirasen, Lilibeu, Shantza, Nink, Monna, Shosa, Dercori, Caway, Ba, Miza, Iwaza, Kikaza, Soshiru, Pybara, Hatska, Goku Black, Granolah

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