Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

If Blue Vegeta beats Toppo in the TOP, while a stronger Blue Vegeta can't even scratch SSJ Broly, along with Blue Goku, then it's a no contest that SSJ Broly owns both.

Ah yes. I agree on that. I thought that you were talking about GoD Mode Toppo and Blue Evolution Vegeta.

Them too. Why? Because the plot has Goku and Vegeta outclassed by Broly. So even if TOEI adapted the Broly movie; Blue Evolution Vegeta and Blue KK Kakarot would get pwned the same way by SSJ Broly. God Toppo lost to a weaker Blue evolution Vegeta, While Broly would dominate a stronger version.

I feel like SS Broly should simply be stronger than any standard God tier forms (blue, True golden, SS kefla). FP SS is above anyone yes, but not sure that SS is.

Especially given his performance.

[Miracles]

Ah yes. I agree on that. I thought that you were talking about GoD Mode Toppo and Blue Evolution Vegeta.

Them too. Why? Because the plot has Goku and Vegeta outclassed by Broly. So even if TOEI adapted the Broly movie; Blue Evolution Vegeta and Blue KK Kakarot would get pwned the same way by SSJ Broly. God Toppo lost to a weaker Blue evolution Vegeta, While Broly would dominate a stronger version.

I feel like SS Broly should simply be stronger than any standard God tier forms (blue, True golden, SS kefla). FP SS is above anyone yes, but not sure that SS is.

Especially given his performance.

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Them too. Why? Because the plot has Goku and Vegeta outclassed by Broly. So even if TOEI adapted the Broly movie; Blue Evolution Vegeta and Blue KK Kakarot would get pwned the same way by SSJ Broly. God Toppo lost to a weaker Blue evolution Vegeta, While Broly would dominate a stronger version.

I feel like SS Broly should simply be stronger than any standard God tier forms (blue, True golden, SS kefla). FP SS is above anyone yes, but not sure that SS is.

Especially given his performance.

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

[Miracles]

I feel like SS Broly should simply be stronger than any standard God tier forms (blue, True golden, SS kefla). FP SS is above anyone yes, but not sure that SS is.

Especially given his performance.

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

Well that would directly contradict the plot of Broly only being forced to go FP against Gogeta. After pwning Goku and Vegeta in SSJ.
By that fact alone, Blue evo and KK Blue will get the same result as Blue. A meaningless attempt trying to fight SSJ Broly. Only to end up running away to fuse.

As far as theorizing the gaps. People underestimate Toriyama's Blue power level. His forms are strong enough to go head up with fusion [Zamasu]. We don't know how evo/KK Blue compares to Toriyama's version of Blue.

[Grand Marshal 1]

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

Well that would directly contradict the plot of Broly only being forced to go FP against Gogeta. After pwning Goku and Vegeta in SSJ.
By that fact alone, Blue evo and KK Blue will get the same result as Blue. A meaningless attempt trying to fight SSJ Broly. Only to end up running away to fuse.

As far as theorizing the gaps. People underestimate Toriyama's Blue power level. His forms are strong enough to go head up with fusion [Zamasu]. We don't know how evo/KK Blue compares to Toriyama's version of Blue.

True, but in the end it was meant to be a showdown between Gogeta Blue and FP SS Broly. At least in the sense that it would sell more merch. So they had to have SS Gogeta fight SS Broly.

Although this wasn't the case with Vegito and Zamasu, so ig Gogeta not being the one to push Broly at FP SS could work, as ultimately, he defeats him.

It's kind of a technicality tbh. It can be both ways since there was no medium to scale both encounters.

No Gogeta God lol

[ssj3kakarot]

How strong are Kefla, Broly and Toppo in relation to each other?

Is it fair to say that God of Destruction Toppo is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla? Is Super Saiyan Broly, not the Full Power Super Saiyan Broly weaker than both of them?

I don't think so, no. I would put both Broly and Toppo above Kefla. Hakaishin Toppo was the 1st one to reach official hakaishin level besides Jiren and Omen, Kefla is just a little lower.
If anything, Broly should be stronger than Toppo because he was stronger than the one who beat him up, but is tricky because
for an hour couldn't do what Toppo did in a second to Golden Freeza.

All in all, I'd say they are much stronger than Kefla and on a category of their own.

I never thought of that before. I clearly think Broly is stronger than Toppo, but Toppo embarrassed Frieza bad, like, I felt bad watching, bad. I'm inclined to think Broly wasn't holding back because he was enraged and shouldn't be. Its probably more just to fit the narrative of the fusion delay, but still, impressive if you take it at face value.

[Thani]

I feel like SS Broly should simply be stronger than any standard God tier forms (blue, True golden, SS kefla). FP SS is above anyone yes, but not sure that SS is.

Especially given his performance.

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

I don't see them doing any better, honestly. The way I saw it, Broly's SSj was pretty much on par with Kefla's variant. Hence, even KKx20 and Blue Evolution would be eventually overpowered by Broly. It makes sense, too. Broly Ikari state was fighting on par with Blue Goku, but Paragus was sure he would lose and die. After transforming, as SSj, he got handsomely above KKx20 Goku. At the very least, he could be on par with the Spirit Bomb.

[Grand Marshal 1]

SS Broly's performance was dominate. The plot alone simply has him owning Goku and Vegeta.
That means even Blue evo and KK Blue in TOEI's adapted version has to get baby shaked as well.
Toriyama simply has Broly way above anything except Blue fusion. We don't know how UI stacks to him tho.

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

I don't see them doing any better, honestly. The way I saw it, Broly's SSj was pretty much on par with Kefla's variant. Hence, even KKx20 and Blue Evolution would be eventually overpowered by Broly. It makes sense, too. Broly Ikari state was fighting on par with Blue Goku, but Paragus was sure he would lose and die. After transforming, as SSj, he got handsomely above KKx20 Goku. At the very least, he could be on par with the Spirit Bomb.

Imo his SS is a continuation of the actual multiplier. As in, he didn't go SS on top of Wrathful but on top of his already SS3+ Base. But he did exploit his Wrathful power ups. Elevating him above normal blue tier, but not above KK×20 levels. I don't see SS Broly being capable of tanking something like GoD Toppo's double Hakai, Vegeta's Evolution Final Explosion, or Goku's Spirit Bomb (one he would make in the movie). Ig that's just me.

Kefla is just another can of worms rly.

[Thani]

I don't think he could necessarily tank the U7 Spirit Bomb either, it could either beat him or severely damage him (it did that with Freeza, who was much stronger than Goku at that point). The same can be said about the other attacks. He's on that level imo, which means other attacks at the same level could do him in if properly connected. He didn't try to tank Goku and Vegeta's combo in the movie, for example, but opted to overpower it with an attack of his own.

He can definitely be hurt by attacks of this magnitude.

[Miracles]

But I think we both know how much of a gap in power exists between blue fusion and normal blue tier. I don't expect for KK×20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta to defeat FP SS Broly, so they would need fusion anyway, but I believe that they would be able to push back SS Broly and force him FP. Which would then go down the same way it did with Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta and SS Broly. Hense fusion.

Broly was intending to kill. He failed to kill Freeza, he didn't even make him drop off the Golden Form, which is questionable imo. And despite being a major force with Goku and Vegeta, they faced him head on. Matching him punch for punch, blast for blast, until deciding that the best thing to do is use fusion. Since Broly grew even more in power.

Well that would directly contradict the plot of Broly only being forced to go FP against Gogeta. After pwning Goku and Vegeta in SSJ.
By that fact alone, Blue evo and KK Blue will get the same result as Blue. A meaningless attempt trying to fight SSJ Broly. Only to end up running away to fuse.

As far as theorizing the gaps. People underestimate Toriyama's Blue power level. His forms are strong enough to go head up with fusion [Zamasu]. We don't know how evo/KK Blue compares to Toriyama's version of Blue.

True, but in the end it was meant to be a showdown between Gogeta Blue and FP SS Broly. At least in the sense that it would sell more merch. So they had to have SS Gogeta fight SS Broly.

Although this wasn't the case with Vegito and Zamasu, so ig Gogeta not being the one to push Broly at FP SS could work, as ultimately, he defeats him.

It's kind of a technicality tbh. It can be both ways since there was no medium to scale both encounters.

No Gogeta God lol

Well the plot is what always determines the scale. The script won't change how Goku and Vegeta were no match for SSJ broly in either medium. It wasn't just because they can sell merch off the fight with SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ Broly. Those sales capitalize off of the plot. Which had SSJ broly and SSJ Gogeta fight. Broly's SSJ battling SSJ Gogeta was to demonstrate the narrative of the power escalation. Showing Broly's power up was too insane for Goku and Vegeta to even approach in the story.

It was this way too in the TOP. Every fight kept escalating in power for Goku leading up to the final strongest.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I don't think so, no. I would put both Broly and Toppo above Kefla. Hakaishin Toppo was the 1st one to reach official hakaishin level besides Jiren and Omen, Kefla is just a little lower.

So then the Evolved Blue Vegeta who beat Toppo is stronger than the first time that Goku used Ultra Instinct as he was said to be weaker than Kefla.

However that version of Vegeta shouldn't be as strong as the second time that Goku used Ultra Instinct which defeated Kefla.

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku
Evolved Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Broly

Perhaps.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I don't think so, no. I would put both Broly and Toppo above Kefla. Hakaishin Toppo was the 1st one to reach official hakaishin level besides Jiren and Omen, Kefla is just a little lower.

So then the Evolved Blue Vegeta who beat Toppo is stronger than the first time that Goku used Ultra Instinct as he was said to be weaker than Kefla.

However that version of Vegeta shouldn't be as strong as the second time that Goku used Ultra Instinct which defeated Kefla.

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku
Evolved Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Broly

Perhaps.

Good scale. It's the way I rank them too.

[Thani]

I would just add that the Blue Evolution Vegeta that defeated GoD Toppo is not his usual realm of power. Afterwards, he was again stuck to perform more or less the same as SSBKKx20 Goku against Jiren. So, to me, that "power up" from pride was a temporary deal.

If I were to scale, it would be something like

3rd Omen Goku / Regular!Jiren
Blue Evolution Vegeta (Pride)
SSj2 Kefla/ 2nd Omen Goku / GoD Toppo (?)
GoD Toppo (?)
First Omen Goku / Suppressed!Jiren
Super Saiyan Broly / Super Saiyan Kefla / U7 Spirit Bomb (50x SSB)
SSBKKx20 Goku / Blue Evolution Vegeta (20x SSB)

[Grand Marshal 1]

I would just add that the Blue Evolution Vegeta that defeated GoD Toppo is not his usual realm of power. Afterwards, he was again stuck to perform more or less the same as SSBKKx20 Goku against Jiren. So, to me, that "power up" from pride was a temporary deal.

That's the only problem with the boost itself. I like to compare him to Omen more tbh (as did the end credits to Super's ToP episodes).

From a scaling perspective you could argue that the Final Explosion allowed him to roughly use the form, which actually was around blue tier, not even KK×20 since both he and Goku refrained from being loud, noisy and all about powering up at that point.

Both were total wrecks. And Goku used normal Blue for the rest of the fight, with the exception of a KK blast iirc?

Either way, like in the Manga, I prefer it for Evolution Vegeta to be somewhat superior to KK×20 Goku, the same way his Perfected advanced form is stated to be above Goku's power Stressed Perfected variant.

And it doesn't rly affect the power scale.

Yet...

[Thani]

I would just add that the Blue Evolution Vegeta that defeated GoD Toppo is not his usual realm of power. Afterwards, he was again stuck to perform more or less the same as SSBKKx20 Goku against Jiren. So, to me, that "power up" from pride was a temporary deal.

That's the only problem with the boost itself. I like to compare him to Omen more tbh (as did the end credits to Super's ToP episodes).

From a scaling perspective you could argue that the Final Explosion allowed him to roughly use the form, which actually was around blue tier, not even KK×20 since both he and Goku refrained from being loud, noisy and all about powering up at that point.

Both were total wrecks. And Goku used normal Blue for the rest of the fight, with the exception of a KK blast iirc?

Either way, like in the Manga, I prefer it for Evolution Vegeta to be somewhat superior to KK×20 Goku, the same way his Perfected advanced form is stated to be above Goku's power Stressed Perfected variant.

And it doesn't rly affect the power scale.

Yet...

I can agree on that. Vegeta's power up, while not comparable to Ultra Instinct, feels like it should be better than Goku's Blue at least, since he's one "transformation" behind anyways. Basically, if Vegeta is to be second fiddle to Goku, then at least make the gap not seem too big.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I would just add that the Blue Evolution Vegeta that defeated GoD Toppo is not his usual realm of power. Afterwards, he was again stuck to perform more or less the same as SSBKKx20 Goku against Jiren. So, to me, that "power up" from pride was a temporary deal.

That's the only problem with the boost itself. I like to compare him to Omen more tbh (as did the end credits to Super's ToP episodes).

From a scaling perspective you could argue that the Final Explosion allowed him to roughly use the form, which actually was around blue tier, not even KK×20 since both he and Goku refrained from being loud, noisy and all about powering up at that point.

Both were total wrecks. And Goku used normal Blue for the rest of the fight, with the exception of a KK blast iirc?

Either way, like in the Manga, I prefer it for Evolution Vegeta to be somewhat superior to KK×20 Goku, the same way his Perfected advanced form is stated to be above Goku's power Stressed Perfected variant.

And it doesn't rly affect the power scale.

Yet...

I can agree on that. Vegeta's power up, while not comparable to Ultra Instinct, feels like it should be better than Goku's Blue at least, since he's one "transformation" behind anyways. Basically, if Vegeta is to be second fiddle to Goku, then at least make the gap not seem too big.

Pretty much. As for me, the current ceiling of power is Blue fusion at 150×Blue more or less.

The spirit bomb I compare more to KK×20. Although it could be compared to Omen, but at least from my point of view it's better like this (again, Kefla). Although I am a believer of the fact that Goku and Vegeta got stronger in the ToP. Not just via forms. But their base.

[Thani]

I do believe they got stronger, but like, not to the point of "Goku's normal SSB is stronger than his initial SSBKKx20" or anywhere close to that. It's too much of a bloat.

The manga, however, is another beast entirely. Goku's SSB got much stronger than it's previous showing, according to Piccolo. Probably capable of wrecking Manga!Fusion Zamasu like he did Saganbo, imo.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I do believe they got stronger, but like, not to the point of "Goku's normal SSB is stronger than his initial SSBKKx20" or anywhere close to that. It's too much of a bloat.

The manga, however, is another beast entirely. Goku's SSB got much stronger than it's previous showing, according to Piccolo. Probably capable of wrecking Manga!Fusion Zamasu like he did Saganbo, imo.

Lol I am of the mindset that Goku and Vegeta got strong to enough to compete with initial KK×20. But that's scaling preferences.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well of the bunch and to go into more detail I'd say from weakest to strongest

Super Saiyan Kefla - Because Base Kefla was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue

Super Saiyan Broly - Because Base Broly was a little weaker than Super Saiyan Blue

Ultra Instinct Goku (First Time) - Because it was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla - For the reason above.

God of Destruction Toppo - Maybe? It just seems like being the second main antagonist after Jiren and being a God of Destruction should put him higher than a Super Saiyan 2 Fusion when fellow God of Destruction Beerus was Super Saiyan Blue Fusion level.

Evolved Blue Vegeta - Because he beat him.

Ultra Instinct Goku (Second Time) - Because he used this level of power initially against Jiren also and performed better than you'd think Vegeta would have.

Jiren - Because he was stronger.

Ultra Instinct Goku (Third Time) - Or just after he powered up and eventually surpassed Jiren.

[Dragon Wukong]

I feel like if SSBE or SSBKK could've taken on SS Broly, then regardless of plot there's no reason for Vegeta or Goku to run away from him or resort to fusion. If we assume the movie can be canonical to the anime continuity, then the only assumption we can make is Goku and Vegeta saw he was above their threshold before resorting to Gogeta.

I also find it egregious to say SS2 Kefla is anything less than the third strongest fighter in the Tournament of Power in the anime, since power-wise she was slightly above Omen Goku, and the only other person who pushed him that far, or indeed could withstand Omen was Jiren, who could easily handle SSBE Vegeta on his own.