Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

Movie isnt out yet. It comes out tomorrow.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

From all the summaries I've read. No Comparison between UI Goku and Beerus is made in the movie.

In the movie and the novelization (someone posted this on twitter), Goku says Broly might be stronger than Beerus and thats all the comps we get

However maybe tonights dub premier reveals something new

[ankokudaishogun]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)

[Kenneth La Torre]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)

And jiren has no aspect of UI, yet he matched it.

I think that UI as a reason to why goku is above beerus is a horrible reason.

[Miracles]

We have Daizenshuu guides and the manga stating they can't get zenkai's anymore.

There's also not a single statement that said they grew stronger in their base forms. Only in UI and SSBE.

This is true for the manga. However I don't remember the anime stating such? Black was getting Zenkai's solely due to a Saiyan body.
Even Black stated Goku will be back stronger after their second bout when having tea with Zamas.
The Saiyans overall ability to grow after battle was a major plot point in the Zamas arc.

Then we get the TOP where Goku uses Blue on Kale then later a fatigued red Goku is able to box with a stronger Kale.
This is why fans feel they have to try and make sense of this farce with headcannons like "Goku was holding back" or "his overall power grew during the TOP."

Exactly! I’m going by what is shown and stated in the show. I don’t recall any guides ever stating that they no longer get zenkais and the manga even says that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger after the battle with Broly so there’s also that.

After the fight with Broly could mean Goku and Vegeta did training to improve after that clash with the Saiyan titan.
However, it is stated in chapter 20 that Goku and Vegeta pushed their bodies to the limit and "probably" can't power up from Zenkai anymore.
So it isn't a statement of fact. It's up in the air if they can or can't get Zenkai's.

[RecolorSaiyan]

"Zenkais" =/= Saiyans improving during battle.

BoG and onwards, apparently saiyans rapidly get stronger and stronger while fighting opponents above them, just by the process of fighting. This is what Toriyama tells us.

Zenkais don't really move the needle for them anymore, its not that they don't get them but lets say hypothetically, broly punches a hole in goku 5 seconds into the fight and then goku rests up in a healing pod, his power won't have moved by any noticeable amount. Not to mention go back to android/cell/boo story arcs and vegeta didn't get significantly stronger by healing from the asskickings 18 or cell gave him. Gohan got healed by Dende vs Bootenks and it was explictly stated, his power didn't increase at all

[shadd21]

Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

I think we may have celebrated too soon Miracles.

[Miracles]

Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

I think we may have celebrated too soon Miracles.

I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.

"Zenkais" =/= Saiyans improving during battle.

BoG and onwards, apparently saiyans rapidly get stronger and stronger while fighting opponents above them, just by the process of fighting. This is what Toriyama tells us.

Zenkais don't really move the needle for them anymore, its not that they don't get them but lets say hypothetically, broly punches a hole in goku 5 seconds into the fight and then goku rests up in a healing pod, his power won't have moved by any noticeable amount. Not to mention go back to android/cell/boo story arcs and vegeta didn't get significantly stronger by healing from the asskickings 18 or cell gave him. Gohan got healed by Dende vs Bootenks and it was explictly stated, his power didn't increase at all

Yeah, Zenkai's mean recovery from near death and also could mean growing during battle. Toriyama did say that Saiyans improve and can change the tide during combat but he didn't say how. Goku exceeded his limits in BOG against Beerus after the god poked a hole in him and he recovered stronger. That wound from Beerus "caused" the full potential of SSJJG to come out. Then from there on Goku surpassed the limit of god a few more times until he reached his full power. Then we had Black stating in the anime that the damage he takes makes him stronger. Which is hinting towards Zenkai's. Then we have Goku and Vegeta in the anime's TOP getting new forms from near death experiences with UI from the Genki dama struggle and Beyond Blue after the Jiren whooping Vegeta took. Which again hints towards Zenkai's. It could be very well Saiyans growing could depend on both from Zenkai's and exceeding their limits when pushed into a corner.

[shadd21]

I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.

It’s not so much him being protected by plot but more the writers dancing around the subject by avoiding direct comparisons between Beerus and “X” character.

[Miracles]

I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.

It’s not so much him being protected by plot but more the writers dancing around the subject by avoiding direct comparisons between Beerus and “X” character.

Yes, they avoid it cause there is no reason to directly compare Goku's current opponents to his goalpost Beerus. Why do you think they couldn't even say Broly; who forced a fusion to use full power, is stronger than Beerus? They will keep Beerus out of Goku's hill climb to the top and leave him as the final boss alone waiting at the pinnacle until they battle or it's outright stated that Goku or anybody else is stronger than him. Beerus is protected by the plot due to his role to the main character. Here we are, in a new arc of Super, with a new villain, Broly is already yesterdays news. Still Beerus throne is untouched. Beerus fans have nothing to fear, just enjoy the show.

[shadd21]

Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.

[Miracles]

Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.

If what you were saying is true we currently wouldn't have Goku, who can't even tell if a guy who just pushed Blue Gogeta to full power; is stronger, weaker or equal to Beerus.

This still shows Toriyama is letting the audience know that Beerus is and will be that guy. I know fans don't like it cause they don't like the way Beerus punks Goku and Vegeta and slaps women but those are story facts.

[ssj3kakarot]

Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.

If what you were saying is true we currently wouldn't have Goku, who can't even tell if a guy who just pushed Blue Gogeta to full power; is stronger, weaker or equal to Beerus.

This still shows Toriyama is letting the audience know that Beerus is and will be that guy. I know fans don't like it cause they don't like the way Beerus punks Goku and Vegeta and slaps women but those are story facts.

But some fans really enjoy it!!

[shadd21]

I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?

[BWri]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)

And jiren has no aspect of UI, yet he matched it.

I think that UI as a reason to why goku is above beerus is a horrible reason.

This is one of the reasons I feel UI has been wasted as a concept. Its honestly barely more than a powerup. It would be a great tool for weaker fighters to stall those far more powerful.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Dimension feat they talked about looks insane.

As a side note. They were doing it BEFORE they powered up to SSB and LSS. So there's that.

[PFM18]

I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?

Uhhh how exactly?

[Freezerbaby]

Very disappointed to see that there isn´t golden freeza vs Broly at all, just a shot hinting that freeza lost.

[zarmack]

I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?

To be honest, I hope Beerus becomes an enemy again in some way. Like, the Z-crew finding out that Beerus told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta, and then Vegeta trains his ass off so he could kill him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Very disappointed to see that there isn´t golden freeza vs Broly at all, just a shot hinting that freeza lost.

No. There definitely is golden Freeza vs broly. You see him get stomped by broly in his Golden form, not just the shot with him on the Mountain.