Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Sikat]

while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc).

Well, he did (technically) train by taming the Cell Juniors who were stated to all be as strong as they were in the Cell Arc. So with seven SS1-tier fighters. Explaining why he went from Cell Arc Piccolo tier to Universe Survival Arc SS3+ tier.

[dragonball0900]

while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc).

Well, he did (technically) train by taming the Cell Juniors who were stated to all be as strong as they were in the Cell Arc. So with seven SS1-tier fighters. Explaining why he went from Cell Arc Piccolo tier to Universe Survival Arc SS3+ tier.

I believe that must have been for a short time though. If it was regularly for years, 17's reply to Piccolo ("what sort? just protecting my island) during the ToP wouldn't make much sense.

[ZombieVito]

Not even a fight would be needed, just him managing to dodge their attacks at least once or twice.

Yeah, but instead Dyspo doesn’t even react or block because SSB is just that much better than him.

Dyspo was clearly taken by surprise.

As was Toppo, and he managed to block SSB Vegeta’s attack. Not to mention Kale took both Toppo/Vegeta by surprise, yet both of them managed to block her attack.

So this excuse doesn’t really hold weight. If Dyspo was SSB-tier he would have been able to react, especially with his speed which you claim makes him contend with SSB-tier fighters.

17 is almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he couldn't one shot Dyspo so his speed is the real deal.

17 is all scratched up after his stalemate with Dyspo, so your theory of Dyspo doing nothing but dodging is unfounded. They are equals, and both far weaker than SSB.

If you have something that points to Dyspo being anywhere near SSB tier feel free to post it.

You have Blue characters literally saying 17 is almost as strong as them. What more is it needed?

Even if you are weaker, you can still damage someone if they are caught off guard so Dyspo can do that to 17 thanks to his speed.

[Sikat]

Not even a fight would be needed, just him managing to dodge their attacks at least once or twice.

Yeah, but instead Dyspo doesn’t even react or block because SSB is just that much better than him.

Dyspo was clearly taken by surprise.

As was Toppo, and he managed to block SSB Vegeta’s attack. Not to mention Kale took both Toppo/Vegeta by surprise, yet both of them managed to block her attack.

So this excuse doesn’t really hold weight. If Dyspo was SSB-tier he would have been able to react, especially with his speed which you claim makes him contend with SSB-tier fighters.

17 is almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he couldn't one shot Dyspo so his speed is the real deal.

17 is all scratched up after his stalemate with Dyspo, so your theory of Dyspo doing nothing but dodging is unfounded. They are equals, and both far weaker than SSB.

If you have something that points to Dyspo being anywhere near SSB tier feel free to post it.

You have Blue characters literally saying 17 is almost as strong as them. What more is it needed?

Something actually reaffirming this. Taking non-definitive statements like this, and warping them to mean what you want them to, doesn’t mean much in terms of scaling.

#17 has the huge anti-feat of stalemating with Dyspo, when Vegeta/Kafla were able to fodderize him.

Even in the Moro Arc we also have feats proving #17 to be weaker than Piccolo, and I don’t see anybody claiming he is SSB tier.

[ankokudaishogun]

while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc).

Well, he did (technically) train by taming the Cell Juniors who were stated to all be as strong as they were in the Cell Arc. So with seven SS1-tier fighters. Explaining why he went from Cell Arc Piccolo tier to Universe Survival Arc SS3+ tier.

I just realized the Cell Jrs. didn't grow older over the time.

...now I want Adult Cell Jrs.

[Cipher]

So, for what it’s worth re: 17, the line in Japanese has Goku referring to himself alone.

17号のヤツ、特に何もしてねぇのに強さはオラと対して変わらねぇ...なんでだろ

“That #17 ... he hadn’t been doin’ anything special at all, but his strength wasn’t so far off from mine ... I wonder why...”

Your mileage may vary on what counts as “wasn’t so far off,” given Super’s general big-dealing of anything God+, but hopefully that puts a lid on any “He was referring to the team generally” arguments, if context already hadn’t.

While I was flipping back through, I also paid more attention to Dyspo. He does have some implied speed techniques, and seems to be pretty comfortable handling SS2 Goku. Gets his clock cleaned by anyone Blue level though, which is about as much as we can say. His bout with #17 isn’t the “stalemate” I see people selling it as—Dyspo jut manages to avoid being rung out, at the cost of being completely exhausted, and they aren’t at it long. It’s obvious #17 is weaker than the heaviest of Blue-level hitters by the time of the ToP (just in that Gohan is said to be the strongest on Earth in the next arc alone, but contextually that also seems pretty clear in the ToP), but I don’t think there’s much to argue against high God or even low Blue (“F”-era Blue?) given both what we see and Goku’s line. If anyone’s going to read that much into the off-page bout with Dyspo, I think they’re also obligated to read into #17 eating a blow from Jiren that was intended to knock out Golden Freeza and being none too worse for wear.

Playing the psychoanalysis game, I might guess that Toyotaro did intend to rein him in a bit from the anime, given the deliberate scaling back on Goku’s forms in their sparring match, but wanted to use the line at the end to imply that that the difference wasn’t enormous, and that #17 was indeed “up there” (to whatever ambiguous degree), which otherwise might not have been clear.

High God? Low Blue? Probably six of one, half a dozen of the other. Similar to where Kale lands for me. (Though just looking at the action on the page, I’m tempted to give the slight edge to Kale.)

[BWri]

With Kale though, that's her going absolutely all out. That may be the big difference between her and #17. I determine that due to how quickly her stamina dropped vs the Pride Troopers who's leader was on Roshi's level.

[TheSaiyanGod]

High God? Low Blue? Probably six of one, half a dozen of the other. Similar to where Kale lands for me. (Though just looking at the action on the page, I’m tempted to give the slight edge to Kale.)

To be honest, for people who are arguing about 17 being SSB or CSSB tier, it doesn't really matter if he's at the bottom of the CSSB tier or at the top of the SSB tier, it's not going to change how many people he would be able to defeat ( he would still be below Kefla, Gohan and Goku). So I'm fine even if some people wanted to consider him CSSB tier (although in practice there is a big difference between the two tiers, his position wouldn't favor 17 against any of the previously mentioned characters anyway).

The fact is that in both anime and manga, 17 is weaker than a solid SSB/CSSB level character (Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and Toppo), regardless of whether he is in the same tier as them or not. But I would still argue that SSG tier is the minimum he should be scaling, since 17 is clearly way above SSJ3 Goku.

[Sikat]

So, for what it’s worth re: 17, the line in Japanese has Goku referring to himself alone.

17号のヤツ、特に何もしてねぇのに強さはオラと対して変わらねぇ...なんでだろ

“That #17 ... he hadn’t been doin’ anything special at all, but his strength wasn’t so far off from mine ... I wonder why...”

Very well could just be referring to SS3 Goku’s fight against #17. Unless of course you want to pretend #17 is UI-tier, as that would be Goku at his strongest post-ToP.

[Sikat]

the Pride Troopers who's leader was on Roshi's level.

Kahseral was stronger than Roshi. The reason he lost is because strength isn’t everything, and Roshi used his skill (pseudo-UI thing) to avoid his attack and sweep him off his feet. No different from Roshi avoiding Jiren’s attacks, except for the fact that Jiren is much stronger than Kahseral, and as a result was able to make quick work of Roshi.

[Thani]

the Pride Troopers who's leader was on Roshi's level.

Kahseral was stronger than Roshi. The reason he lost is because strength isn’t everything, and Roshi used his skill (pseudo-UI thing) to avoid his attack and sweep him off his feet. No different from Roshi avoiding Jiren’s attacks, except for the fact that Jiren is much stronger than Kahseral, and as a result was able to make quick work of Roshi.

On another note, Kahseral also explicitly pointed out that Roshi's power level was "low as dirt", implying he was aware of being stronger than Roshi by quite a large margin.

[BWri]

the Pride Troopers who's leader was on Roshi's level.

Kahseral was stronger than Roshi. The reason he lost is because strength isn’t everything, and Roshi used his skill (pseudo-UI thing) to avoid his attack and sweep him off his feet. No different from Roshi avoiding Jiren’s attacks, except for the fact that Jiren is much stronger than Kahseral, and as a result was able to make quick work of Roshi.

On another note, Kahseral also explicitly pointed out that Roshi's power level was "low as dirt", implying he was aware of being stronger than Roshi by quite a large margin.

I reviewed it and agree with you both. I remembered Roshi grabbing and bashing Kahseral out of the arena, but I see the leg sweep is what allowed him to do that.

[Nistarkail]

Kahseral was stronger than Roshi. The reason he lost is because strength isn’t everything, and Roshi used his skill (pseudo-UI thing) to avoid his attack and sweep him off his feet. No different from Roshi avoiding Jiren’s attacks, except for the fact that Jiren is much stronger than Kahseral, and as a result was able to make quick work of Roshi.

On another note, Kahseral also explicitly pointed out that Roshi's power level was "low as dirt", implying he was aware of being stronger than Roshi by quite a large margin.

I reviewed it and agree with you both. I remembered Roshi grabbing and bashing Kahseral out of the arena, but I see the leg sweep is what allowed him to do that.

Kasheral is the fourth in terms of strength. Supposing his performance during DBZ Saga, I hardly imagine that he could go beyond first form Frieza (but probably 300.000 or 400.000). In ToP the average power level was not so high that even old enemies could steal the show for small fries like him and the rest of weaker Pride Troopers.

Roshi won thanks to UI, a new way to alternate raw powers to transcendental techniques.

[ankokudaishogun]

Muten didn't use UI.

He used his REGULAR SKILL. It's the whole point: he maximized his skill and managed to use it to defeat a stronger enemy, which is basically one of the point of martial arts.
Because of his expertise and experience, Muten's techniques end up in the same direction as UI.
That's all: he didn't use UI at all.


People forget Jiren is not a simple brute, either.

[Sikat]

People forget Jiren is not a simple brute, either.

Yeah, this is why Jiren is superior to Broly. Not only is he stronger, but he’s an infinitely superior fighter compared to Broly, who is just a brute.

[Nistarkail]

Muten didn't use UI.

He used his REGULAR SKILL. It's the whole point: he maximized his skill and managed to use it to defeat a stronger enemy, which is basically one of the point of martial arts.
Because of his expertise and experience, Muten's techniques end up in the same direction as UI.
That's all: he didn't use UI at all.


People forget Jiren is not a simple brute, either.

Yeah, it's something similar to UI but not the same thing. It's like when we saw similar techniques but different from some point of view.

[ankokudaishogun]

People forget Jiren is not a simple brute, either.

Yeah, this is why Jiren is superior to Broly. Not only is he stronger, but he’s an infinitely superior fighter compared to Broly, who is just a brute.

Super Broly's fight style evolved in the course of the battle, but yeah, he's mostly a brute force fighter without finesse
OG Broly was a much more skilled and technical fighter

[BWri]

Super Broly's fight style evolved in the course of the battle, but yeah, he's mostly a brute force fighter without finesse
OG Broly was a much more skilled and technical fighter

Yeah, OG Broly apparently learned pro-wrestling, MMA, and capoeira in his travels. He handed out L's vociferously.

[Cipher]

So the other day I had UI Goku above Jiren while trying to figure out a general tiering of everyone I felt basically confident in, and I think I'm probably revising things in its top rung so that I'd have, from least to mostest:

Full-Power Moro, (maybe Beerus here I don't know; I'm clueless), Broly, UI Goku (ToP), Jiren, Seven-Three Moro, UI Moro, UI Goku (Moro arc climax) (and then onward)

I have no idea where to put Beerus with the whole "many implications that he's surpassed by UI/Jiren/Broly but then sudden confidence against Moro at the end of the arc" thing--maybe upcoming revelations concerning Vegeta's use of destruction techniques will help make more sense of that.

Also not sure where Broly and ToP UI Goku fall in relationship to one another, but I suppose my rationale is:

Jiren and UI Goku at the ToP are essentially 1:1 when they're both going all out, with Jiren having the advantage in reserves/endurance (hence my revision to put him just a smidge above Goku there; if you're 1:1 offensively but one character can maintain that output longer, that's about as clear a "bump them one notch up" case as it gets, right?).

I'd give Jiren the slight edge on Broly just in that they're both in that ambiguously "probably stronger than Beerus" category, and I'd put my money on Jiren in a fight between them just because Broly learned to fight like, an hour ago. If Jiren and Goku are almost 1:1, I wind up with UI Goku nudging out Broly too.

Goku's performances in UI in those two respective arcs seemed worth breaking out as I'm inclined to read Goku's comment on Moro's unparalleled toughness at face value, which would mean he must have improved in the form, and it fits with other implications in the arc general, including a noted substantial increase in strength in Blue following his training with Merus, and having trained to use UI specifically. Goku also notes at the ToP that the form/technique needs more polishing, and Whis makes note of his precision gradually rising during the Moro fight (and further comments on room for improvement in the Granolah arc).

Thoughts?

[Sikat]

Thoughts?

Beerus is above everybody not named the Angels or Zeno. And Broly has no way of avoiding Moro’s drain, so he’d lose in a fight.