Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree.

That's just Toei coming up with some BS to justify a power up, not due to any saiyan logic or a potential-related reason. Goku was never shown to be able to do that, because saiyans don't do that. Not even kaioshin can heal themselves like that.
You could, however, say Goku Black got a plot armor from Toei stronger than Goku ever got.

Regardless, it still happened.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree.

That's just Toei coming up with some BS to justify a power up, not due to any saiyan logic or a potential-related reason. Goku was never shown to be able to do that, because saiyans don't do that. Not even kaioshin can heal themselves like that.
You could, however, say Goku Black got a plot armor from Toei stronger than Goku ever got.

Not really plot armor when he didn't need to grow stronger in the first place. He could have just fused with Zamasu, like it happened in the manga. It would be plot armor only if he had no other feasible way to survive.

Meanwhile Goku indeed had plot armor several times in that arc.

[ZombieVito]

Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree.

That's just Toei coming up with some BS to justify a power up, not due to any saiyan logic or a potential-related reason. Goku was never shown to be able to do that, because saiyans don't do that. Not even kaioshin can heal themselves like that.
You could, however, say Goku Black got a plot armor from Toei stronger than Goku ever got.

Black's last power up wasn't a zenkai, it was him applying rage into himself.

Notice that Black never grew stronger after getting damaged from episodes 62-64. My theory is that his power up in 61 was him finally reaching the power Future Goku had before their bodies switched thus needing rage to grow stronger in 64.

P.S. Goku healed himself in the Super anime.

[Miracles]

I think people miss the point of Vegeta telling Black that Goku's body couldn't be used to the best of it's ability, under Zamas. That means, Zamas could not replicate it's full potential. Therefore, full power Blue could not be used by Zamas. The best he could get out of Goku's body was a weaker level of power.

Its*

Are we talking Anime here??? Vegeta’s line was pure nonsense.. The fact that Goku Black literally got a powerup right after that, disproves it. Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree. Goku Black’s potential far surpasses even Gohan’s, who far surpasses Goku’s and Vegeta’s. Vegeta’s line was just Vegeta acting all cool and what not. It was 100% WRONG.

That accurate line was in both the anime/manga. Despite Black getting all those Zenkai's, he still did not come close to Goku's power in either adaptation. Goku in the manga had Full power Blue and Goku Blue overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Vegeta's line was proven factual that Black couldn't use Goku's power to full capacity.

[GodVegetto91]

I think people miss the point of Vegeta telling Black that Goku's body couldn't be used to the best of it's ability, under Zamas. That means, Zamas could not replicate it's full potential. Therefore, full power Blue could not be used by Zamas. The best he could get out of Goku's body was a weaker level of power.

Its*

Are we talking Anime here??? Vegeta’s line was pure nonsense.. The fact that Goku Black literally got a powerup right after that, disproves it. Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree. Goku Black’s potential far surpasses even Gohan’s, who far surpasses Goku’s and Vegeta’s. Vegeta’s line was just Vegeta acting all cool and what not. It was 100% WRONG.

That accurate line was in both the anime/manga. Despite Black getting all those Zenkai's, he still did not come close to Goku's power in either adaptation. Goku in the manga had Full power Blue and Goku Blue overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Vegeta's line was proven factual that Black couldn't use Goku's power to full capacity.

Well, I’m talking about the Anime here, not the Manga. I agree that in the Manga, Vegeta may have been right. But in the Anime? Not so much..

[Miracles]

Its*

Are we talking Anime here??? Vegeta’s line was pure nonsense.. The fact that Goku Black literally got a powerup right after that, disproves it. Goku Black was constantly spamming Zenkai's and insta-healing himself on the spot. Those are feats that the original Goku has never been shown to be able to do, to that degree. Goku Black’s potential far surpasses even Gohan’s, who far surpasses Goku’s and Vegeta’s. Vegeta’s line was just Vegeta acting all cool and what not. It was 100% WRONG.

That accurate line was in both the anime/manga. Despite Black getting all those Zenkai's, he still did not come close to Goku's power in either adaptation. Goku in the manga had Full power Blue and Goku Blue overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Vegeta's line was proven factual that Black couldn't use Goku's power to full capacity.

Well, I’m talking about the Anime here, not the Manga. I agree that in the Manga, Vegeta may have been right. But in the Anime? Not so much..

Only if you ignore the fact that Blue Goku overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Showing that Zamas with Goku's body wasn't even close to the true Goku's power.

[ZombieVito]

Only if you ignore the fact that Blue Goku overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Showing that Zamas with Goku's body wasn't even close to the true Goku's power.

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

We already have been through this discussion. The point is that Goku accomplished things that exceeded Goku Black’s power. Even if you assume Goku Black can manage a kamehameha of that caliber, he can’t use kaioken, so Goku is in a superior position anyway.

[GodVegetto91]

Goku’s Black’s potential far surpasses the original Goku’s. It was truly terrifying.

[Miracles]

Only if you ignore the fact that Blue Goku overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Showing that Zamas with Goku's body wasn't even close to the true Goku's power.

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

[Thani]

Only if you ignore the fact that Blue Goku overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Showing that Zamas with Goku's body wasn't even close to the true Goku's power.

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Goku used his full power before and it never broke his arms like that.

It is literally Goku's body. There is no reason why Black couldn't reproduce the feat, if he used it's full power.

[ZombieVito]

Only if you ignore the fact that Blue Goku overpowered fused Zamas in the anime. Showing that Zamas with Goku's body wasn't even close to the true Goku's power.

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Using his full power made his arms unusable? Since when lmao.

[GodVegetto91]

It’s “headcanon” to assume that Goku was only using just 100% of his power during his beam struggle against Merged Zamasu in the Anime.. And a very ‘BAD’ headcanon at that. The writers can state all they want, but if it doesn’t make sense or conflicts with the actual story, evidence, reason and logic, it’s bogus and should be discarded. Goku was obviously breaking his limits during that beam struggle, hence why he was so powerful to the point where he even overpowered a Fusion! AND why he “broke” his arm... That’s all the evidence we need. Anyone denying that clearly has an agenda to satisfy.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Been burning my brain off trying to make a scale of the top tiers of the manga (Not only Hakaishins but guys like UI Goku, Broly, Jiren, fusions) and I think I'm getting to something.

First off, I think Beerus has two levels: His normal power and his Hakai power. Goku having MUI when Beerus doesn't is a clear indication of superiority, and it's pretty obvious Beerus is jealous. He's also real quiet around Goku (contrast this with how he used to bully him and still bullies Vegeta), and seems to be relying on Vegeta learning Hakai to prove it's superiority over UI instead of doing it himself. However Goku shits himself when he sees Beerus showing his Hakai power.

Berus (Hakai) >>> MUI Goku (Current) >> Berus

Whis said at one point last chapter that Goku and Vegeta are currently unmatched in the mortal universe, so they're both stronger than Broly who Goku regarded as possibly stronger than Beerus. Granolah of course is about to debunk this claim with his new wish to be the strongest mortal.

Berus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > LSSJ Broly >= Beerus

Following the story, we have Moro. By copying Merus' abilities he attains UI and is a rival to Goku. His strength before that is pretty hard to gauge however, all we know is that he's stronger than UI Omen Goku but weaker than MUI. Goku calls him the "toughest", but that can be a reference to his durability (He uses the same term he used for Nappa in Japanese) and/or his magic. Beerus also seems pretty confident in handling Earth Moro, but that could be because of Hakai. Still placing Moro above Broly for simplicity's sake. Goku was telling Moro to train instead of relying on magic, after all.

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) ? Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) > LSSJ Broly >= Beerus

Now for Goku and Vegeta when they fought Moro. Goku could put up a fight, but then it's made clear he was doing no damage. Even Vegeta, who Goku admitted inferiority to, could only hurt Moro when using Spirit Fission. Goku only seems to surpass Beerus when using Mastered UI, so Omen should still be weaker than Beerus.

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) >= SSJBE Vegeta >=< LSSJ Broly >= Beerus > UIO Goku (Vs Moro)

I used to strongly believe MUI Goku was a constant level in all of it's appearances, after all it's a state of mind Goku has been working towards, he's had no time to improve it yet. But the manga implies otherwise... Jiren could rival ToP MUI Goku when breaking his limits, yet current MUI Goku is unmatched. I like the idea of Omen Goku after training with Merus being as strong as MUI Goku was in the ToP.

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) >= SSJBE Vegeta >=< LSSJ Broly >= Beerus > UIO Goku (Vs Moro) = MUI Goku (ToP)

Now we've reached the ToP. Jiren was clearly no match for MUI Goku without breaking his limits, but was easily much stronger than ToP UI Omen Goku. I think ToP UIO Goku is the only guy here that isn't Hakaishin tier (i.e. weaker than the weakest Hakaishin, who I believe is Arak)

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) >= SSJBE Vegeta (Vs Moro) >=< LSSJ Broly >= Beerus > UIO Goku (Vs Moro) = MUI Goku (ToP) >= Jiren (Beyond Limits) >> Jiren (Full Power) > Belmond > UIO Goku (ToP)

As for the fusions. Gogeta Blue is stronger than Broly by a unknown amount, and Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus according to Shin. This seemed to be a contradiction (unless Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger since the Black arc), but I think Kaioshin was referring to Beerus' Hakai power when comparing him to Vegetto.

Vegetto Blue >= Beerus (Hakai) >>> Gogeta Blue > Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) >= SSJBE Vegeta >=< LSSJ Broly >= Beerus > UIO Goku (Vs Moro) = MUI Goku (ToP) >= Jiren (Beyond Limits) >> Jiren (Full Power) > Belmond > UIO Goku (ToP)

[Miracles]

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Goku used his full power before and it never broke his arms like that.

It is literally Goku's body. There is no reason why Black couldn't reproduce the feat, if he used it's full power.

Black was combined with Zamas and got overpowered. There is no way he could replicate such a feat by himself.

There was nothing stated about limit breaker. It was factually only Goku's full power. It didn't go beyond that.

At the cost of his arms. It was clearly a limit breaking attack.

Hand to hand, Goku was no match for Zamasu.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Using his full power made his arms unusable? Since when lmao.

The story didn't say HOW his arms went limp. But the story DID say Goku only used his full power.
Nothing more or less. Anything beyond that is headcanon.

[ZombieVito]

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Goku used his full power before and it never broke his arms like that.

It is literally Goku's body. There is no reason why Black couldn't reproduce the feat, if he used it's full power.

Black was combined with Zamas and got overpowered. There is no way he could replicate such a feat by himself.

There was nothing stated about limit breaker. It was factually only Goku's full power. It didn't go beyond that.

No, it was stated that was Goku's "FULL POWER." Not a limit breaking attack. That's headcanon.

Besides, It does not change the fact that Black never exhibited such power.

Using his full power made his arms unusable? Since when lmao.

The story didn't say HOW his arms went limp. But the story DID say Goku only used his full power.
Nothing more or less. Anything beyond that is headcanon.

You are simply being obstuse.

Before the Kamehameha, on the same episode even, he said he was going full power and this happened.





So does Goku have 2 different sets of full power or what?

Goku's Kamehameha being a limit breaking one is the only logical explanation. Specially since he has NEVER in 35 years has had his arms get damaged while using his full power.

[Koitsukai]

snip

As for the fusions. Gogeta Blue is stronger than Broly by a unknown amount, and Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus according to Shin. This seemed to be a contradiction (unless Goku and Vegeta had gotten much stronger since the Black arc), but I think Kaioshin was referring to Beerus' Hakai power when comparing him to Vegetto.

Vegetto Blue >= Beerus (Hakai) >>> Gogeta Blue > Granolah >= MUI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) >= SSJBE Vegeta >=< LSSJ Broly >= Beerus > UIO Goku (Vs Moro) = MUI Goku (ToP) >= Jiren (Beyond Limits) >> Jiren (Full Power) > Belmond > UIO Goku (ToP)

I agree about Beerus, a two-level thing for him works fine, I would call one "battle power" and hakai the other. Of course he has just one level, but I get what you are saying.
His attitude towards Goku has definitely changed, he is not treating them both equally as he always had. I mean, after Goku unlocks UI for good, Beerus starts training Vegeta and teaching him his secret power...

However, we part ways regarding two things: ToP UI and blue fusion.
There's something about UI, about how it works that implies perfection, or at least a mastery of movement. The perfect strike, right then and there with a precise amount of force, something that lasts too little during the ToP.
While Sign isn't as perfect, not by a long shot, it seems to consume more stamina and provides less accuracy in every aspect, so the imperfect form I don't see matching the perfected form. I know one Goku is much stronger than the other, but UI is not really about power, it's more about efficiency, about how to properly wield power. And both iterations of Goku are pretty damn strong, it's not an amateurish Goku fighting perfectly at the ToP. Plus, the boost Goku gets from UI is pretty big, he goes from failing to land a hit on Moro7-3 to breaking his wrist just by standing there... if he got a remotely similar boost during the ToP, I really don't see Sign closing that gap the following arc. There's nothing to settle this, though.

Blue fusion: I disagree about Shin referring to Hakai Beerus, mainly because he's never seen that power, aside of erasing Zamasu which wasn't the battle-oriented hakai Vegeta is learning.
Having Vegito Blue rivalling Beerus' battle power, and post-ToP Gogeta Blue beating up a guy said to be above Beerus' battle power seems perfectly fine to me. Vegito 9,5, Beerus 10, Broly 10,5, Gogeta 11.
Also, with Moro being the strongest, we can compare how Gogeta dealt with a weaker opponent (Broly) and how UI Goku dealt with Moro7-3. It took 4 blows for Goku to take down Moro7-3, and he could even tank him directly without problem. Gogeta on the other hand needed a lot to take down Broly, and dodged and blocked his attacks. So, to me if Goku can easily beat a guy stronger than the one Gogeta "struggled" with(I can't stress these quotation marks enough), he is above Gogeta.

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= UI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) = Gogeta Blue> Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) = ToP UI = Jiren = LSSJ Broly >= Beerus >= Vegito Blue > SSJBE Vegeta> Sign Goku (Vs Moro) >> Jiren (Full Power) > Belmond > Sign Goku (ToP)

I basically took Jiren and put him at the same realm of Broly and Prime Moro, and placed Gogeta between UI Goku and Moro7-3. Also I don't think Vegeta surpassed Beerus' battle power against Moro.

[ZombieVito]

Broly is a damn tank. I seriously doubt Moro has his same body endurance.

[Nazi Cola]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the god battle royale's relevancy to the current manga. The gods weren't implied to be so different from each other, although a select few were presented as the most superior (Quitela, Mosco, Champa, and of course, Beerus). It was confirmed Belmod was weaker than Jiren. In chapter 69, we saw Beerus easily take out Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta, to the point where he stopped using his arms. In chapter 70, it was revealed that Vegeta was one of the two strongest in Universe 7 (the other obviously being Goku because of Ultra Instinct), which means he had surpassed the power of Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, which was said in promotional material to be superior to Jiren. Putting all of that together, it would come out to a chain like this:

Beerus > Vegeta > Broly > Jiren > Belmod

Given Beerus' showing against Vegeta, are we able to assume he could actually do the same to someone like Belmod? I don't think that was the intention when the battle royale was created, but the advancements in power from Goku and Vegeta have made it almost impossible for it not to be. Anyone have theories/explanations for this? I've seen the "two level" theory for Beerus and the gods alike, but I find myself not seeing any real evidence behind it.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think there is enough evidence to conclude that [Moro Arc] Vegeta, Broly and Jiren have any noticeable difference in battle power, specially in the manga. And while Vermoud is said to have battle power inferior to Jiren’s, Hakai doesn’t merely depends on the user’s battle power, so it could be possible that Vermoud defeats Jiren, Broly or Vegeta if he uses this move. I’m just not so sure he can do that as easily as Beerus.