Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:33 am

I agree with Mr Baggins and Kaboom here. Gohan can stack Super Saiyan with his "Ultimate" power but for the purposes of making powerscaling and slowly revving up the intensity of a fight, Super Saiyan is treated as a lesser form of power for Gohan to use. Otherwise, we run into the issue of there being a "Two Super Saiyan" theory for Gohan and that would be too confusing for the viewers I'd imagine. So technically, Gohan can use Super Saiyan in his "Ultimate" form but there's literally no point in doing so since it would invoke extra strain with no benefit and it would be confusing for the viewer to understand how powerful Gohan is if we had Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:19 pm

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Super Saiyan can be "stacked" with Ultimate, as long as the latter is a permanent state. If Ultimate is his new base form, then it makes sense Gohan can transform into Super Saiyan just fine (nothing is being "stacked" in the first place, technically speaking).

The problem is if you say Gohan can stack Super Saiyan, a transformation, on top of another transformation, Ultimate. There is no precedent for anything like that. And Ultimate, as made apparent in modern times, is a transformation. Maybe he could do that in the past, he can do it no longer in the present.
Kaboom wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:41 pmIt could easily be much the same for GT Gohan. Maybe he learned a lesson during the Boo arc, and kept training at least casually during the next 15 years until GT, managing to gain extra power that he could pull out with Super Saiyan on top of his new-normal Ultimate state. But because those 15 years were peaceful (in the original continuity anyway), he could very well have lost some of his practical "fighting edge" by the time the poop started hitting the paddles during GT's story.
Right, the interview says "he'd given up almost entirely", so maybe we can infer that Gohan did keep training, but I don't think we can stress "casual trainings" enough. And with whom did he train? Pan? Videl? Maybe Piccolo? If it's casual trainings, it makes sense to be just them. I follow the "just as Gohan gains power quickly, he loses it just as quickly" unspoken truth seen in the entire series, but I doubt these casual trainings made a difference. Probably just kept him from getting totally rusty, but nothing beyond that. Though I must say I don't know how strong Piccolo is in GT, he's the only one that could make some difference here.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:41 pm

Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan are two separate though connected transformations. I already showed that the way Gohan lately has been transforming into PU is the same difference of Goku transforming from SS forms to SSGod. He can stack SS on top of SSGod to make SSBlue. Mind you Goku and Vegeta had to train hard and for months to be able to stack SS onto SSGod and make SSB.

I think it's very possible Gohan stacked SS on top of PU and that's what Super Awakening: Beast is, though he snapped and that's what did it so he didn't do it on purpose. On the other hand that can very well not be the case whatsoever. There is no detailed explanation of this form yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:19 pm I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Super Saiyan can be "stacked" with Ultimate, as long as the latter is a permanent state. If Ultimate is his new base form, then it makes sense Gohan can transform into Super Saiyan just fine (nothing is being "stacked" in the first place, technically speaking).

The problem is if you say Gohan can stack Super Saiyan, a transformation, on top of another transformation, Ultimate. There is no precedent for anything like that. And Ultimate, as made apparent in modern times, is a transformation. Maybe he could do that in the past, he can do it no longer in the present.
I don't think it was ever intended to be a "permanent" state in that sense. Gohan clearly powered up immensely to become that "mightiest of warriors" as Gohan described it.

There is precedent for stacking transformations, however. Super Saiyan is stacked on top of Super Saiyan God to create Super Saiyan Blue. In Broly, Broly's Ikari power seems to be stacked with Broly's Super Saiyan. Regardless, I don't think "Ultimate" is really a transformation as much as a separate state of being that he taps into his Base form. And the writers chose to make it clear when he's using it by making it visually striking. Otherwise, the readers/viewers wouldn't understand when Gohan is at full power and when he's deliberately holding back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:18 pm

The idea that Ultimate Gohan held back SSJ when struggling with Kefla and the Gammas is silly. He never was that prideful of a warrior, so to say he’s avoiding a 50x boost because he wants to use his own forms is headcanon. Back in the Boo Saga it was definitely vague whether Ultimate Gohan was a transformation or just a power up, but I think every story (except maybe GT) makes it clear Ultimate and SSJ are two different routes and are not stackable. At best in BoGs they are but with little to no boost, but Super Hero disproved that. Also worth pointing out every form gets called a potential unlock, so we can’t single out Ultimate as the potential unlock form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:42 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:18 pm The idea that Ultimate Gohan held back SSJ when struggling with Kefla and the Gammas is silly. He never was that prideful of a warrior, so to say he’s avoiding a 50x boost because he wants to use his own forms is headcanon. Back in the Boo Saga it was definitely vague whether Ultimate Gohan was a transformation or just a power up, but I think every story (except maybe GT) makes it clear Ultimate and SSJ are two different routes and are not stackable. At best in BoGs they are but with little to no boost, but Super Hero disproved that. Also worth pointing out every form gets called a potential unlock, so we can’t single out Ultimate as the potential unlock form.
Pretty much yeah. And IIRC Gohan doesn't go SSJ until the ritual, he otherwise doesn't use it during the fight with Beerus. So even BoG supports the idea that he can't gain power via SSJ on top of his ultimate state.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:06 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:41 pmHe can stack SS on top of SSGod to make SSBlue.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amThere is precedent for stacking transformations, however. Super Saiyan is stacked on top of Super Saiyan God to create Super Saiyan Blue.
*Sigh* I'm so tired of having to explain it... Alright, let's do it one last time: No, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not the result of two transformations being stacked.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of the regular Super Saiyan being used with the power of Super Saiyan God that was absorbed, that's exactly what Goku says in the movie, and that's exactly how Toriyama describes the form.

No, using the power of Super Saiyan God is not the same as using the Super Saiyan God transformation itself. Super Saiyan God is not part of the equation because it's possible to "separate" the form from the power it provides thanks to the "absorption" concept that was introduced. If Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was "Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God", both Goku and Toriyama would have said so. But they specifically use "the power of Super Saiyan God", and that prevents it from being the result of two transformations being used at the same time. The only transformation being used here is Super Saiyan, nothing else.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amIn Broly, Broly's Ikari power seems to be stacked with Broly's Super Saiyan.
Keyword: "seems". Without confirmation, there's nothing we can do.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amAnd the writers chose to make it clear when he's using it by making it visually striking.
That's exactly what constitutes a transformation, regardless of the reason.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:35 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:06 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:41 pmHe can stack SS on top of SSGod to make SSBlue.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amThere is precedent for stacking transformations, however. Super Saiyan is stacked on top of Super Saiyan God to create Super Saiyan Blue.
*Sigh* I'm so tired of having to explain it... Alright, let's do it one last time: No, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not the result of two transformations being stacked.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of the regular Super Saiyan being used with the power of Super Saiyan God that was absorbed, that's exactly what Goku says in the movie, and that's exactly how Toriyama describes the form.

No, using the power of Super Saiyan God is not the same as using the Super Saiyan God transformation itself. Super Saiyan God is not part of the equation because it's possible to "separate" the form and the power it provides thanks to the "absorption" concept that was introduced. If Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was "Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God", both Goku and Toriyama would have said so. But they specifically use "the power of Super Saiyan God", and that prevents it from being the result of two transformations being used at the same time. The only transformation being used here is Super Saiyan, nothing else.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amIn Broly, Broly's Ikari power seems to be stacked with Broly's Super Saiyan.
Keyword: "seems". Without confirmation, there's nothing we can do.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:16 amAnd the writers chose to make it clear when he's using it by making it visually striking.
That's exactly what constitutes a transformation, regardless of the reason.
No, without ever having Super Saiyan God in the first place you cannot use the power of Super Saiyan God to attain Super Saiyan Blue.

God-like Saiyan IS Super Saiyan Gods power but in base form. The idea was that SSG was no longer needed or accessible hence needing to attain God-like Saiyan, but then BAM Goku starts using SSG again and accesses it again many times which then would make no sense if SSG wasn't needed anymore and he could simply use its power in base form.

Also, they literally needed to train for months to even be able to use Super Saiyan Blue which they didn't know was a thing until they discovered it during training.

This means that the whole God-like Saiyan junk was retconned going forward, especially considering Goku has gone directly to and from between God and Blue, and in the Moro Arc when Moro was draining his energy he INVOLUNTARILY goes from Blue to God to 3, not Blue to God-like Saiyan. You can go ahead and sigh and be a condescensing prick, just makes YOU look bad.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:48 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:06 pm Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of the regular Super Saiyan being used with the power of Super Saiyan God that was absorbed, that's exactly what Goku says in the movie, and that's exactly how Toriyama describes the form.
That was the original explanation, yeah — Resurrection 'F' and especially its promos and tie-ins are clear that SSGSS is the result of Goku using the power of SSG in his base state and then going Super Saiyan — but that's not currently the case. Goku9001 is right.

All modern post-Super materials (Beerus's dialogue in the Universe Survival arc of the DBS manga, video games like Fusions and Kakarot, Shueisha ads and guides from V Jump) are explicit that Blue is a direct power-up from Super Saiyan God itself and is a combination of SSG and SS. It's stated outright. While that might sound complicated at first, what the higher-ups did was essentially just replace the SSG-empowered base with SSG directly.

Modern Dragon Ball is no stranger to retcons, and this is one of them. The Super manga has used this latter mechanic for Blue from the start (Goku doesn't absorb God in that version), and all other mediums and promotional materials eventually followed suit.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:35 pmYou can go ahead and sigh and be a condescensing prick, just makes YOU look bad.
If you look at my posts, you'll find a number of times I explained this form (in this forum alone!). So I really am tired of saying the same thing, no joking. But don't worry, from now on, I'm just gonna ask for a source. I really would like to see where it's stated "Super Saiyan is stacked with Super Saiyan God".

I do have to give you a heads-up, though, you already got yourself a ban for losing your temper before for no reason. Why would you want that again? Careful.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:48 pmAll modern post-Super materials (Beerus's dialogue in the Universe Survival arc of the DBS manga, video games like Fusions and Kakarot, Shueisha ads and guides from V Jump) are explicit that SSGSS is a direct power-up from Super Saiyan God and is a combination of the two forms. It's stated outright.
Whatever it is stated in other continuities, it stays there (until another continuity acknowledges it, of course). Dragon Ball Super manga is another continuity, it plays by its own rules. So it has no effect on the movies. I should probably say I follow the movies continuity, so there's that.

Just out of curiosity: what do Dragon Ball Fusions and Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot state? I'm gonna need Japanese images, since the English version of the games are known to have some... "questionable" translations.

What do Shueisha ads and V-Jump state? Well, whatever they say, can promotional material supersede what's stated in the series like you're implying? I mean, I use them as auxiliary material, if they don't contradict anything and it's a useful information, why not consider it? But to outright take promotional stuff over what's stated in the series? Tricky.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:48 pmModern Dragon Ball is no stranger to retcons, and this is one of them. The Super manga has used this latter mechanic for Blue from the start, and all other mediums and promotional materials eventually followed suit.
Yeah, but this is Dragon Ball Super we're dealing with. Things are more difficult. A "retcon" for the manga is not necessarily a retcon for the anime or movie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:01 pm

I think the Broly movie makes things the most clear. When powering up into SSB, Goku is in a SSG state and his body is actively changing into that of a Super Saiyan. He starts off with the yellow aura, his hair spikes up, and his eyes narrow from their usual irises and pupils into those of a Super Saiyan.

Seemed to be quite directly showing that SSB is the result of forcing your SSG body to evolve into that of a Super Saiyan.

Of course, that's just my personal read on the situation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm So it has no effect on the movies.
Not true. If this
WSJ article
is to be believed, Super Saiyan God Vegeta was acknowledged to have been taken straight from Toyotaro's manga.

When those characters are actively using SSG on their own, in sharp contrast to what they were doing back when ads still talked about the godly base form, I think it's pretty self-evident what mechanic Super as a whole is presently following. SSGSS hasn't been said to be tied to a godly base form in years and every time it's currently discussed in any form of media, it's straight-up connected to SSG. Dunno what to tell you.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm I'm gonna need Japanese images, since the English version of the games are known to have some... "questionable" translations.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm Well, whatever they say, can promotional material supersede what's stated in the series like you're implying?
Man, this is just classic goalpost-shifting. Automatically discounting english translations just because they're official and arguing that other official materials are wrong doesn't help your argument. My whole point is that taken together, it's clear what the current narrative is. Selectively prying each piece of evidence apart because it doesn't favor your agenda doesn't make for an honest discussion.

Anyway, you can track down all this stuff on your own since I already provided the leads. I don't have access to my laptop folder at the moment, and now I definitely have no obligation to post them for you since you're already denying their veracity in relation to the broader franchise. You've made it clear that your position isn't gonna budge so it's pointless to post them now.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm A "retcon" for the manga is not necessarily a retcon for the anime or movie.
It's the opposite. The manga is the only medium that didn't retcon itself here, although you can give the films a pass if you're just taking the Super ones into account.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:48 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pm
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm So it has no effect on the movies.
Not true. If this
WSJ article
is to be believed, Super Saiyan God Vegeta was acknowledged to have been taken straight from Toyotaro's manga.

When those characters are actively using SSG on their own, in sharp contrast to what they were doing back when ads still talked about the godly base form, I think it's pretty self-evident what mechanic Super as a whole is presently following. SSGSS hasn't been said to be tied to a godly base form in years and every time it's currently discussed in any form of media, it's straight-up connected to SSG. Dunno what to tell you.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm I'm gonna need Japanese images, since the English version of the games are known to have some... "questionable" translations.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm Well, whatever they say, can promotional material supersede what's stated in the series like you're implying?
Man, this is just classic goalpost-shifting. Automatically discounting english translations just because they're official and arguing that other official materials are wrong doesn't help your argument. My whole point is that taken together, it's clear what the current narrative is. Selectively prying each piece of evidence apart because it doesn't favor your agenda doesn't make for an honest discussion.

Anyway, you can track down all this stuff on your own since I already provided the leads. I don't have access to my laptop folder at the moment, and now I definitely have no obligation to post them for you since you're already denying their veracity in relation to the broader franchise. You've made it clear that your position isn't gonna budge so it's pointless to post them now.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:19 pm A "retcon" for the manga is not necessarily a retcon for the anime or movie.
It's the opposite. The manga is the only medium that didn't retcon itself here, although you can give the films a pass if you're just taking the Super ones into account.
Grimlock has done this plenty of times, he gets condescending and rude, then acts surprised when other users lose their patience with him and do it back then he gets admins and bam the person that HE started with gets banned, he also has users who he is friends with who join him in teaming up on you.. but let's not talk about all that and stay on subject.

People seem to keep forgetting that old information CANNOT retcon new information, only new information can retcon old information.

SSG is currently in both media lines explicitly portrayed as a form below SSB and IS a combination OF SSG and SS. Which like I pointed out a million times, we see in the Moro Arc that Goku is forcibly made to drop into lower forms by Moro taking his energy and it happens without Goku even realizing until its too late. He goes from Blue to God to 3. Not Blue to God-like Saiyan(which is no longer even a thing really).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:38 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:48 pm
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:06 pm Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of the regular Super Saiyan being used with the power of Super Saiyan God that was absorbed, that's exactly what Goku says in the movie, and that's exactly how Toriyama describes the form.
That was the original explanation, yeah — Resurrection 'F' and especially its promos and tie-ins are clear that SSGSS is the result of Goku using the power of SSG in his base state and then going Super Saiyan — but that's not currently the case. Goku9001 is right.

All modern post-Super materials (Beerus's dialogue in the Universe Survival arc of the DBS manga, video games like Fusions and Kakarot, Shueisha ads and guides from V Jump) are explicit that Blue is a direct power-up from Super Saiyan God itself and is a combination of SSG and SS. It's stated outright. While that might sound complicated at first, what the higher-ups did was essentially just replace the SSG-empowered base with SSG directly.

Modern Dragon Ball is no stranger to retcons, and this is one of them. The Super manga has used this latter mechanic for Blue from the start (Goku doesn't absorb God in that version), and all other mediums and promotional materials eventually followed suit.
Well I agree, except Super is it's own product and it's own continuity, and I think it's a good thing that it adjusted some things from the movie, in order to make room for future mechanics in the DBS series, even though it technically "retconned" the movie version of how SSB worked, it's from a different continuity so it doesn't really matter

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:48 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pmNot true. If this
WSJ article
is to be believed, Super Saiyan God Vegeta was acknowledged to have been taken straight from Toyotaro's manga.
But what is that supposed to mean? That Vegeta appeared in the movie as a Super Saiyan God because of the earlier appearance in the manga or something else? If so, okay, but it doesn't change anything. Because even without the manga, one would be kinda naive to think Vegeta didn't have Super Saiyan God.
The movie would then be the first material we see him using it, but it's not like he didn't have it before. Movie 14 ends with Vegeta demanding Goku to perform the ritual on him, then in Movie 15 we see him using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan... All of that leads to the conclusion that the ritual happened and Vegeta got the form at some point off-screen.

Do you happen to have a reliable translation of that image? I've just tried to find it, but I couldn't.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pmWhen those characters are actively using SSG on their own, in sharp contrast to what they were doing back when ads still talked about the godly base form, I think it's pretty self-evident what mechanic Super as a whole is presently following. SSGSS hasn't been said to be tied to a godly base form in years and every time it's currently discussed in any form of media, it's straight-up connected to SSG. Dunno what to tell you.
I don't know why you're bringing up Saiyan beyond God, it's related but has nothing to do here. Neither I, nor Goku nor Toriyama are saying Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is tied to "godly base form". The only thing bringing back Super Saiyan God does is rendering Saiyan beyond God pointless, but everything related to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, its explanation and such, remains the same.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pmMan, this is just classic goalpost-shifting. Automatically discounting english translations just because they're official and arguing that other official materials are wrong doesn't help your argument.
It actually does. English stuff is widely known to change and to make things up (and to even acknowledge fan stuff, "Mystic Gohan", "Frost Demons"...). Also, let me remind you that you are in a forum that (thankfully) leans on the Japanese side of this franchise. The more we stick to Japanese material, the better for all of us. If you want to blame someone, blame the English usual nonsense.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pmSelectively prying each piece of evidence apart because it doesn't favor your agenda doesn't make for an honest discussion.
But isn't that what you all do? I mean, I remember clearly when people used to say all the time that we shouldn't take promotional stuff or video games into account. Has that changed? What's that word people always say to discard what they don't like or don't fit their agenda...? Ah, CaNoN!!111!1!

I actually consider myself pretty open minded about this, I'm not "selectively prying evidence", right now I'm asking for transparency purposes (to show everyone what has indeed been said) and to generate discussions based on it with as less assumptions and misunderstandings as possible. Not to dismiss or anything like that. However, to dismiss what characters actually say in the series in favor of promotional stuff statement is an approach I'm not willing to do, personally. I can take promotional and videogame stuff into account if they provide some help, but not to contradict the series. If you want to do that, be my guest.

Like, there seems to have this misunderstanding that I'm denying Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the "Super Saiyan version" of Super Saiyan God, i.e. the successor transformation of the Super Saiyan God form, I'm not. In fact, I remember and I'm fully aware that this is stated in the games. And I agree with that (to some extent), one retains the hair of the base form and the other has the Super Saiyan hair, so this description makes sense, from a visual point of view.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:08 pmIt's the opposite. The manga is the only medium that didn't retcon itself here, although you can give the films a pass if you're just taking the Super ones into account.
Right, regardless if Dragon Ball Super always treated Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan like that, it's a thing that is only true for the manga.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:48 pm Do you happen to have a reliable translation of that image? I've just tried to find it, but I couldn't.
Brother, if you can't translate Japanese yourself, who are you to decide which translations are accurate and which ones aren't? Are you aware that there isn't some singular group doing all the official translations for everything in DB? Cipher, for example, has routinely vouched for Viz's modern translation work, even if it's not always perfectly accurate.

So my response to your argument here:
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:48 pm It actually does.
...is no, it actually doesn't. English translations from official sources aren't automatically always instantly less credible than translations from unofficial ones. There are multiple official translators, even reliable translators can occasionally make mistakes, different sources take more liberties than others, and the very act of translating Japanese itself is an interpretable, subjective process. No two people are going to phrase the same statement the same way in English.

But to answer your question, the scan mentions that SSG Vegeta made his debut in the manga and has now been brought over to the movie. While that's hardly some big revelation, it does show that the manga doesn't exist in a creative vacuum. Toyotaro himself has mentioned his introduction of SSG Vegeta to the franchise before. It is what it is.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:48 pm I don't know why you're bringing up Saiyan beyond God, it's related but has nothing to do here. Neither I, nor Goku nor Toriyama are saying Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is tied to "godly base form".
No, that's completely false. If we're going off of reliable English translations from reliable translators, here's what Herms said about Goku's original description of that form in the movie:
Herms wrote:In Japanese it's:

超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人
Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin

At root it's the word "Super Saiyan" modified by the preceding clause "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In other words, the Super Saiyan (form) of a Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God.
That "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" Herms talks about is exactly what people mean whenever they bring up the godly base form or Saiyan Beyond God, and SSGSS is said to be the Super Saiyan version of that. It's even further explained in the 'F' promotional pamphlet with all of Toriyama's materials for the film, and dubs like Funimation specifically corrected their own translation and started using the statement Herms described for the TV anime adaptation. That god-like base form is later replaced by Super Saiyan God itself, so the definition of SSGSS was absolutely retconned for Super (and outright confirmed by games like Fusions and current SS guides).
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:48 pm Like, there seems to have this misunderstanding that I'm denying Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the "Super Saiyan version" of Super Saiyan God, i.e. the successor transformation of the Super Saiyan God form, I'm not.
Okay, so what's the issue? It's the successor transformation to Super Saiyan God both literally and figuratively, in all mediums of Super currently.

If you are being earnest, I'll provide you with all the materials I've got as soon as I can get back to my laptop because I'm very diligent about archiving interesting tidbits as they come. In no uncertain terms, SSGSS is stated to be the result of going Super Saiyan while in the Super Saiyan God form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:52 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pmBrother, if you can't translate Japanese yourself, who are you to decide which translations are accurate and which ones aren't?
I'm one who's been on the Internet for long enough to know not everything we see, read and hear is true. This is such a basic thing that I assume everyone has a degree of common sense to know that. Pretty sure we all know, more or less, where to draw a line and separate fake/wrong stuff from the legit ones.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pm...is no, it actually doesn't. English translations from official sources aren't automatically always instantly less credible than translations from unofficial ones.
Indeed, but once you realize there is a history of inaccuracies, we can't just go blind into whatever new piece of information that appears just because they are official.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pmThere are multiple official translators, even reliable translators can occasionally make mistakes, different sources take more liberties than others, and the very act of translating Japanese itself is an interpretable, subjective process. No two people are going to phrase the same statement the same way in English.
I'm fully aware of that, as a translator myself. Which is exactly why I tell you that that's exactly where the problem, the beginning of a giant snowball may come from. Multiple translators, possible mistakes and overlooks, liberties and interpretation are all cause of the misunderstanding that I (and we all) should try to avoid as much as possible. Asking for sources, asking for reliable translations... These are all attempts of that, so I don't know why you are seemingly taking an issue with a very standard and expected behavior.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pmNo, that's completely false. If we're going off of reliable English translations from reliable translators, here's what Herms said about Goku's original description of that form in the movie:
Herms wrote:In Japanese it's:

超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人
Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin

At root it's the word "Super Saiyan" modified by the preceding clause "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In other words, the Super Saiyan (form) of a Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God.
That "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" Herms talks about is exactly what people mean whenever they bring up the godly base form or Saiyan Beyond God, and SSGSS is said to be the Super Saiyan version of that. It's even further explained in the 'F' promotional pamphlet with all of Toriyama's materials for the film. That god-like base form is later replaced by Super Saiyan God itself, so the definition of SSGSS was absolutely retconned for Super (and outright confirmed by games like Fusions and current SS guides).
Alright, I'll concede that for now. Even though Super Saiyan Rosé still out there making this approach be of little sense (Goku Black doesn't seem to have Super Saiyan God, for naturally being a god himself. So how can Super Saiyan Rosé be his "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"? What exactly is Goku Black stacking with Super Saiyan to make Super Saiyan Rosé?).

We "have" precedent for two transformations being used at the same time, huh, why don't we still have any single word of Ultimate being stacked with Super Saiyan yet? Where's any source, anything at all, hinting that Gohan has ever done that? Why didn't Gohan stacked Ultimate on top of Super Saiyan at any point in Dragon Ball Super and mainly in Universe Survival saga (where I presume it'd have been of great use)? Why didn't Gohan stacked Ultimate on top of Super Saiyan in Movie 2? Do we have any confirmation that Gohan stacked Ultimate and Super Saiyan only for the ritual? Why wouldn't he do it to fight Beerus?

Please no headcanons here, as it doesn't make any sense and there's no reason Gohan wouldn't get the 50x multiplier from Super Saiyan. Also, where would the "strain" (that you mention in previous posts) come from? Because as far as we can tell, Ultimate has no drawbacks. And Super Saiyan has no drawbacks either, Gohan trained and was kept as a Super Saiyan for a while precisely to get rid of all the issues.
Last edited by Grimlock on Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:09 pm

Just my two cents on “Super Saiyan stacking on other Super Saiyan transformations”…

Aren’t Super Saiyan forms past Super Saiyan 1 just Super Saiyan stacked on the previous Super Saiyan level? For instance, Super Saiyan God is no different than Super Saiyan 3 or Super Saiyan 2 in that regard. Of course, it has starky differences in appearance and lore, but ultimately the manga consistently presents it as a Super Saiyan level (Vegeta even says such when he sees Goku using it in conjunction with ultra instinct). Super Saiyan Blue and its variations are just the final step.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:44 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:52 pm *snip*
I'll skip all this translation talk since you're clearly missing the point, which is that unless you can prove that the localization teams for those games are "unreliable translators", I'll take their word over some dude on a forum insisting I give him Japanese pics that he can't translate himself (especially if their translation corroborates other materials, which it does).

I'll also skip the Ultimate + SS stuff you brought up. I answered all those questions just a page ago, and you yourself agreed earlier that it was plausibly a thing back when Ultimate was portrayed as a permanent state. I'm ambivalent as to how this would work in Super Hero; that's up to you to decide, though I'm personally unconvinced that Beast Gohan is a stacked transformation for a variety of reasons.

That leaves us with "I'll concede". Cool. Setting the record straight Re: SSGSS is why I replied to you in the first place. If you're confused about Black's form, he said it himself in the manga — if a mortal Saiyan's hair turns blue when they go past SSG, a god's hair will turn pink if they do the same thing. That might work differently in the anime, but I don't care what the anime does. One explanation is good enough for me.

Ciao.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:09 pm Aren’t Super Saiyan forms past Super Saiyan 1 just Super Saiyan stacked on the previous Super Saiyan level?
Pretty much. Goku actually describes Super Saiyan 2 that way in the Boo arc, and the Super manga (along with V Jump guides) is certainly no stranger to portraying God and Blue as standard parts of the SS line.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:45 pm

On Ultimate as a transformation:
I think the ultimate "form" is just the fullest expression of Gohan's unlocked potential. Like Old Kai said, he can use SSJ forms to similarly unlock that power but that is unnecessary because the ultimate buff allows him to access that power without the stressful transformations. As much as I like beast Gohan, I think it's a step back from the philosophy of Ultimate Gohan as a concept. It's like he said in the manga.

Kefla: "You sure you don't need to go Super Saiyan for this? If you even can?"
Gohan: "I don't do that anymore. No need to really."
...
Kefla: "No need to turn Super Saiyan? Why's that?"
Gohan: "I choose to keep evolving as a human, not a Saiyan. I'm not relying on my Saiyan blood anymore."

My guess is that beast Gohan is just like the other unique Saiyan transformations, but what's interesting is the red eyes which Orange Piccolo shares which perhaps marks it as an evolution of the potential unlock/Ultimate buff. There's a lot of unanswered variables here so it's tough to know what's what, but to get back to the original point Gohan perhaps uses SSJ forms in the movie as a shortcut to reaching a particular threshold of power. He could be using it like Goku does or even as a limiter as he "heats up" so that he doesn't access too much of his power at once. Every time I've seen Ultimate Gohan in Super, he seems to need a little time to access his full power.
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