Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

SSG was stated by Toriyama to Yamammuro to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Spoiler:

Please tell us about the guest characters Beerus and Whis, and Super Saiyan God.

Beerus and Whis are characters who already existed at the scenario stage. Beerus originally had a lizard-like form, but at Toriyama-sensei’s idea, he ultimately became an Egyptian-style cat character. I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei…. It was too different from my own internal image, so I tried suggesting the more sturdily-drawn character one more time, and then Sensei told me that it really was all wrong. (laughs) It had always gone through with a single check [before], but this time, we had that sort of exchange many times. Please check how Super Saiyan God is drawn at the movie theater.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think what's tripping people up is seeing how strong Fusions like Gogeta and Vegito are NOW.

But they often forget that Goku and Vegeta have gotten astronomically stronger since they became Vegito to fight Gohan-Buu with their potential skyrocketing alongside this growth. This, plus their healthier rivalry, pushes their Fusions to even greater heights.

And they've fought people who were on a similar level to them in equivalent forms that ended up creating powerful Fusions of their own. Everything else escalated, allowing Fusions to overtake the likes of Super Saiyan God.

Back when Goku first became a SSG, he undoubtedly was stronger than the Vegito of old. But after all this training alongside Vegeta into veritable powerhouses by comparison to their old selves, their Fusion simply has more base potential.

[Dragon Wukong]

Goku said he never imagined that a realm of power like the Super Saiyan God could exist, and he could certainly imagine how strong a hypothetical Vegetto would be at his maximum strength (SSJ3 Vegetto). The point was really that the SSG was a level of power above anything DBZ could provide, or at least that was the intention.

Don't get me wrong, I believe it was every intention at the time that SSG was supposed to be stronger than fusion. It's just that now I think it's very possible that may not be the case anymore (i.e. retconned), given the incidents I described in my previous post.

You are forgetting that fusion is a multiplier where the base result is stronger than either hall's strongest natural transformation, not a fixed tier of power.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, but with regard to this statement I will say that that is something never stated within the series or supplementary materials. There's no reason to assume that for every case by default fusion is supposed to be stronger in base form than the user's strongest form at that time. It's also in poor taste to bring up multipliers at this time, as SSG and SSB don't have multipliers attached to them in any shape or form. Anyhow, given the lack of any such statement in the series proper, I'm going to assume the base form of a fusion is independent of any transformations unlocked by the users.

Heck, Kefla herself contradicts your statement. Kale at her strongest was able to go up against SSB Goku, but Kefla's base form only put her on par with Super Saiyan God.

Anyways, the crux of my belief is that it seems like (in my opinion anyhow) Goku/Vegeta absorbing godly power into their base forms was retconned toward the end of DBS. And while I do still believe Goku/Vegeta have gotten stronger since Super by default, I don't think it's the case anymore (not since the FT arc anyhow, and especially not since the ToP) that SS3 Goku in the Buu arc is say, weaker than base form Goku now. (And honestly I feel as though my argument holds even more weight in the manga, where Goku never absorbed SSG in the first place anyhow, and the godly forms are still treated as being above the non-godly forms by a large margin.) People can disagree with that, but I don't think anyone in this thread has the power to change my mind on that, so on that particular ticket it'd be pointless to try and debate that point.

[Hugo Boss]

Since fusions work on the AxB logic, you can reconcile SSGod being stronger than Super Vegetto from Dragon Ball Z era and weaker than Super Gogeta from Dragon Ball Super era, because their base forms got massively stronger.

[Dragon Wukong]

Since fusions work on the AxB logic, you can reconcile SSGod being stronger than Super Vegetto from Dragon Ball Z era and weaker than Super Gogeta from Dragon Ball Super era, because their base forms got massively stronger.

Even the AxB rule doesn't seem to be completely true. For one, other factors seem to affect it (with Elder Kai describing Vegito's strength as being influenced by Goku and Vegeta's rivalry for eachother.) And Kibito Kai doesn't seem to follow the rule either, as Kibito and Shin were incredibly powerful gods who (with Shin at the very least) exceeded regular Super Saiyans in their own right, yet Kibito Kai is still somehow weaker than SS3 Goku, (who according to supplementary material would only be 8 times stronger than in his Super Saiyan form.)

As for the base form thing, see the end of my previous post.

[Sadala Elite]

Goku said he never imagined that a realm of power like the Super Saiyan God could exist, and he could certainly imagine how strong a hypothetical Vegetto would be at his maximum strength (SSJ3 Vegetto). The point was really that the SSG was a level of power above anything DBZ could provide, or at least that was the intention.

Don't get me wrong, I believe it was every intention at the time that SSG was supposed to be stronger than fusion. It's just that now I think it's very possible that may not be the case anymore (i.e. retconned), given the incidents I described in my previous post.

You are forgetting that fusion is a multiplier where the base result is stronger than either hall's strongest natural transformation, not a fixed tier of power.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, but with regard to this statement I will say that that is something never stated within the series or supplementary materials. There's no reason to assume that for every case by default fusion is supposed to be stronger in base form than the user's strongest form at that time. It's also in poor taste to bring up multipliers at this time, as SSG and SSB don't have multipliers attached to them in any shape or form. Anyhow, given the lack of any such statement in the series proper, I'm going to assume the base form of a fusion is independent of any transformations unlocked by the users.Your assumption is completely baseless headcanon

Heck, Kefla herself contradicts your statement. Kale at her strongest was able to go up against SSB Goku, but Kefla's base form only put her on par with Super Saiyan God.First of all, SSB Goku was holding back against Berzerk Kale in ep. 101., Second, SSG Goku was shown easily dominating Mastered Berzerk Kale in ep.113, providing more evidence that base fusions > strongest individual half's form

Anyways, the crux of my belief is that it seems like (in my opinion anyhow) Goku/Vegeta absorbing godly power into their base forms was retconned toward the end of DBS. And while I do still believe Goku/Vegeta have gotten stronger since Super by default, I don't think it's the case anymore (not since the FT arc anyhow, and especially not since the ToP) that SS3 Goku in the Buu arc is say, weaker than base form Goku now. (And honestly I feel as though my argument holds even more weight in the manga, where Goku never absorbed SSG in the first place anyhow, and the godly forms are still treated as being above the non-godly forms by a large margin.) People can disagree with that, but I don't think anyone in this thread has the power to change my mind on that, so on that particular ticket it'd be pointless to try and debate that point.
There is simply no evidence whatsoever that Saiyan-Beyond God ever got retconned at all. Literally all feats and statements in the anime and even the manga post-BoG suggest that there's never a retcon.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6359/9da96e36a79 ... b0a_hq.jpg
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.

[GodVegetto91]

SSG was stated by Toriyama to Yamammuro to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Spoiler:

Please tell us about the guest characters Beerus and Whis, and Super Saiyan God.

Beerus and Whis are characters who already existed at the scenario stage. Beerus originally had a lizard-like form, but at Toriyama-sensei’s idea, he ultimately became an Egyptian-style cat character. I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei…. It was too different from my own internal image, so I tried suggesting the more sturdily-drawn character one more time, and then Sensei told me that it really was all wrong. (laughs) It had always gone through with a single check [before], but this time, we had that sort of exchange many times. Please check how Super Saiyan God is drawn at the movie theater.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/

I remember those GOOD old times in 2013! Back when things made total sense! All of this awesomeness and makes sensesness got utterly demolished and ruined with the introduction of that trash movie and trash character Revival of Frieza. Suddenly, everything went out of the window, all logic, reason, and common sense vanished when they had FRIEZA, a mortal space alien, simply train for 4 months, and become even stronger than the Super Saiyan version of SSJ God!

After that, the Universe 6 Arc got even worse!

They should have just focused on Goku fighting other Gods of Destruction after Beerus, and not mingling with lowlife mortals after the Beerus Arc!

Toriyama said it himself, SSJ God was supposed to be a being that “surpasses EVERYTHING!”

[Dragon Wukong]

Your assumption is completely baseless headcanon

If you say so. I still don't see any proof in the statement that for fusion "base form always exceeds the strongest form." (Gogeta also contradicts that since Goku has Ultra Instinct lol)

First of all, SSB Goku was holding back against Berzerk Kale in ep. 101.

"First of all," this is "completely baseless headcanon." At no point was it said or even suggested or implied that Goku was holding back. In fact, Whis says in episode 104 that Goku has been avoiding using the form unless needed in the tournament because it uses up more stamina. This statement effectively shows (unless you want to consider it an error of some kind, which you're free to personally, but that might be *GASP* headcanon, so for the sake of my argument I don't) that Goku needed Super Saiyan Blue at that time because Super Saiyan God would not have worked.

Second, SSG Goku was shown easily dominating Mastered Berzerk Kale in ep.113

One could (though I won't say I'm inherently correct) say that Super Saiyan 2 Kale wasn't actually stronger than when she was out of control. The prior fight against Goku as well the above statements I pointed out by Whis would suggest otherwise in fact. It's just another weird contradiction in the series. Funnily enough, Dokkan Battle seems to treat Kale going berserk as a power-up to Super Saiyan 2, rather than the other way around. I'm not using that as evidence, but it is funny how there's some kind of modern supplementary material that's on my side on this topic.

providing more evidence that base fusions > strongest individual half's form

Says who? See my first and second responses.

There is simply no evidence whatsoever that Saiyan-Beyond God ever got retconned at all. Literally all feats and statements in the anime and even the manga post-BoG suggest that there's never a retcon.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6359/9da96e36a79 ... b0a_hq.jpg
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.

That resurrection F promotional manga page you linked? It's not part of the Dragon Ball Super manga. The manga skips over Resurrection F entirely, effectively leaving it as a blank space filled in by the movie. Even those chapters from that page you linked don't actually finish Resurrection F. It's just a promotion saying "Go see the movie." Seriously, the end of those chapters is "to see the rest go see the movie!" Quit reaching, "Saiyan Beyond God" was never in the manga, and you'd know that if you read the volumes instead of trying to frankenstein a separate promotional piece that isn't included in the volumes into the continuity.

Again, my opinion on the topic came from the fact that Goku's massive power-up came from absorbing Super Saiyan God, and I assume that got retconned in the anime because SSG came back. I won't even say I'm right on that, because earlier parts of the series contradict it. Just like how Super Saiyan God popping up 100 episodes later contradicted it being absorbed at the start of the series. People can derive a myriad of conclusions based on that, and for me to say I'm right would be ridiculously presumptive, but it's not as though others haven't drawn that same conclusion on this board. All I said was my mind personally on that matter was made up.

But I do take some issue with you saying it wasn't retconned in the manga, that's just straight-up verifiably false. Goku's match with Beerus in the manga doesn't have him absorb its strength at any point. If your evidence doesn't come from a DBS volume, then you can get that weak stuff out of here lmao.

Anyways, if you're going to be combative and shut down things with stuff like "psh that's just baseless headcanon," or "your whole view is based on you don't like it unless it's like this," unless you actually have a proper response why, don't even bother in the first place. You generally have a very toxic attitude when it comes to seemingly any kind of debate on threads I find you popping into to respond to me, and it's not conducive to any kind of actual discussion. Maybe you're the one who is triggered or upset because DB might not be the way you want it to be? It'd certainly explain your attitude on the topic and why you're needlessly antagonistic on it.

[Sadala Elite]

Your assumption is completely baseless headcanon

If you say so. I still don't see any proof in the statement that for fusion "base form always exceeds the strongest form." (Gogeta also contradicts that since Goku has Ultra Instinct lol)
Strongest natural form. Kaioken and UI obviously don't count.

First of all, SSB Goku was holding back against Berzerk Kale in ep. 101.

"First of all," this is "completely baseless headcanon." At no point was it said or even suggested or implied that Goku was holding back. In fact, Whis says in episode 104 that Goku has been avoiding using the form unless needed in the tournament because it uses up more stamina. This statement effectively shows (unless you want to consider it an error of some kind, which you're free to personally, but that might be *GASP* headcanon, so for the sake of my argument I don't) that Goku needed Super Saiyan Blue at that time because Super Saiyan God would not have worked. Yet Goku didn't suffer any real damage nor fatigue against Berzerk Kale. Just because Goku used SSB against Kale doesn't mean he was going all out. Do you think SSB Goku was going all out Krillin lol?

Second, SSG Goku was shown easily dominating Mastered Berzerk Kale in ep.113

One could (though I won't say I'm inherently correct) say that Super Saiyan 2 Kale wasn't actually stronger than when she was out of control. The prior fight against Goku as well the above statements I pointed out by Whis would suggest otherwise in fact. It's just another weird contradiction in the series. Funnily enough, Dokkan Battle seems to treat Kale going berserk as a power-up to Super Saiyan 2, rather than the other way around. I'm not using that as evidence, but it is funny how there's some kind of modern supplementary material that's on my side on this topic. Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode

providing more evidence that base fusions > strongest individual half's form

Says who? See my first and second responses.

There is simply no evidence whatsoever that Saiyan-Beyond God ever got retconned at all. Literally all feats and statements in the anime and even the manga post-BoG suggest that there's never a retcon.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6359/9da96e36a79 ... b0a_hq.jpg
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.

That resurrection F promotional manga page you linked? It's not part of the Dragon Ball Super mangaYet, didn't you make several posts about how the Super manga is canon with the movies (especially with RoF & Broly) The manga skips over Resurrection F entirely, effectively leaving it as a blank space filled in by the movie The main reason why the Super manga skips RoF was because the RoF promo manga is canon to it. Even those chapters from that page you linked don't actually finish Resurrection F. It's just a promotion saying "Go see the movie." Seriously, the end of those chapters is "to see the rest go see the movie!" Quit reaching, "Saiyan Beyond God" was never in the manga Yet that manga page clearly depicts Beyond God, you're in denial, and you'd know that if you read the volumes instead of trying to frankenstein a separate promotional piece that isn't included in the volumes into the continuity.

Again, my opinion on the topic came from the fact that Goku's massive power-up came from absorbing Super Saiyan God, and I assume that got retconned in the anime because SSG came back. 1st of all, he never absorbed the SSG form itself at all, he only absorbed the power he had with the form against Beerus at the time (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG, he never actually lost it)https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploa ... 645_hq.jpg I won't even say I'm right on that, because earlier parts of the series contradict it. Just like how Super Saiyan God popping up 100 episodes later contradicted it being absorbed at the start of the series. People can derive a myriad of conclusions based on that, and for me to say I'm right would be ridiculously presumptive, but it's not as though others haven't drawn that same conclusion on this board. All I said was my mind personally on that matter was made up.

But I do take some issue with you saying it wasn't retconned in the manga, that's just straight-up verifiably false. Goku's match with Beerus in the manga doesn't have him absorb its strength at any point. If your evidence doesn't come from a DBS volume, then you can get that weak stuff out of here lmao.

Anyways, if you're going to be combative and shut down things with stuff like "psh that's just baseless headcanon," or "your whole view is based on you don't like it unless it's like this," unless you actually have a proper response why, don't even bother in the first place. You generally have a very toxic attitude when it comes to seemingly any kind of debate on threads I find you popping into to respond to me, and it's not conducive to any kind of actual discussion. Ad hominem much?Maybe you're the one who is triggered or upset because DB might not be the way you want it to be?projecting much lol? It'd certainly explain your attitude on the topic and why you're needlessly antagonistic on it.

[Jack Bz]

Saiyan beyond god is 100% never mentioned in the manga. It's never mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of ssj god during the Beerus fight, therefore it didn't happen. If you had only read the dbs manga and not watched the anime or films, nothing would indicate it.

Of course the RoF promotional manga from before the manga existed properly doesn't count. It's not the same thing as the DBS manga. The manga is of course a separate canon to the films, for one the entire setting of battle of gods is different, and the thing I already mentioned about it literally never being stated that Goku absorbed the power of ssj god. What a strange argument.

[Grand Marshal 1]

One could (though I won't say I'm inherently correct) say that Super Saiyan 2 Kale wasn't actually stronger than when she was out of control. The prior fight against Goku as well the above statements I pointed out by Whis would suggest otherwise in fact. It's just another weird contradiction in the series. Funnily enough, Dokkan Battle seems to treat Kale going berserk as a power-up to Super Saiyan 2, rather than the other way around. I'm not using that as evidence, but it is funny how there's some kind of modern supplementary material that's on my side on this topic.

I have come to agreement with this myself.

Indeed Goku grew in strength during the ToP imo, but Kale's early Berserk was truly blue tier.

Jiren treated her the same way he did Hit so there's also that (the explosion behind the back thing). Not evident of anything, but you can say that only Blue tier enemies got that. Except from Goku who came back cause he activated KK×20.

Also, before Kale goes SS2, she accesses what appears to be the maximum power of her Berserk (when she glows) even making Jiren flinch while meditating. She probably traded some of her power for superior control in a form stronger than her Controlled SS (used against the Pride Troopers), since it wouldn't do much against Goku.

There is also the fact that she and Caulifla always planned to use the potara. So by that logic, to not get what happened in the Manga (trying to force Kale wear the earing) she preferred to be in control.

[Dragon Wukong]

Strongest natural form. Kaioken and UI obviously don't count.

You're making up rules by saying UI doesn't count lol, what do you define as a "natural" form exactly? Because Goku found a new form of power within him that isn't Super Saiyan? That's like arbitrarily saying Frieza's Golden Form isn't a "natural" form because it's a different kind of form that doesn't restrict his natural power like his 1st-3rd forms. It's arbitrary. Ultra Instinct's strength comes from Goku.

Yet Goku didn't suffer any real damage nor fatigue against Berzerk Kale. Just because Goku used SSB against Kale doesn't mean he was going all out. Do you think SSB Goku was going all out Krillin lol?

Goku using SSB on Krillin is a completely different situation. The writers specifically said it was so Goku could test Krillin, which at least made sense in the context of that episode, where Goku isn't in the tournament and can afford to hold back while using a form that drains his stamina without risking their universe. Goku using SSB in the tournament is specifically said by Whis to be as-needed, and you deliberately ignoring that statement and bringing up an irrelevant situation out of context doesn't help your argument. Why would Goku use SSB, a form that drains his stamina, in the middle of a tournament mind you, if he didn't need to use it?

Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode.

Which, as I said, contradicts the earlier fight and statements in the Tournament of Power. If you keep bringing up this point we have a cyclical argument. I have evidence against this point, you use those statements against evidence as mine. This makes it boil down to a matter of opinion, so maybe you shouldn't spout your arguments as fact? Hmm.

Also, the poster above me brought up another good point. Kale in her Berserk form was seen as such a powerful threat after knocking out a Pride Trooper that Jiren chose to step in. Not Toppo, not Dyspo, Jiren. This would put her Berserk form on the likes of Maji Kayo, Hit, and Goku. Keep in mind Dyspo is characterized as stepping in where he feels a fighter might not be worth Jiren's time. But again, your statement can disprove mine, while my statements can disprove yours. So maybe lets chalk it up that it's a matter of opinion and not create a cyclical, redundant debate.

Yet, didn't you make several posts about how the Super manga is canon with the movies (especially with RoF & Broly)

Yes, because those stories are glossed over in the manga, effectively encouraging the reader to watch the movie to get the full story. (Nevermind the fact the promotional manga you keep bringing up ALSO glosses over the film and ALSO encourages the reader to just watch the movie. Funny how you deliberately ignore that point as well.)

The main reason why the Super manga skips RoF was because the RoF promo manga

Yet that manga page clearly depicts Beyond God, you're in denial

Toyotaro's promotional manga from before Dragon Ball Super existed is clearly a different thing, and if it were canonical to the manga it would be in the actual damned manga. Usually promotional material from stuff like the Jump Festas and whatnot make it into the volumes, so why weren't the Resurrection F chapters? Toyotaro wrote that promotional manga before he ever knew he'd be writing Super and have the choice to make changes. Saiyan Beyond God clearly contradicts how he chose to write the Battle of Gods recap, so why would he include it? There's nothing to suggest the promotional manga for RoF is canonical to Dragon Ball Super's manga. And at least by encouraging the reader to just watch the movie you avoid suggesting that concept.

1st of all, he never absorbed the SSG form itself at all, he only absorbed the power he had with the form against Beerus at the time (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG, he never actually lost it)https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploa ... 645_hq.jpg

You miss the point of my argument. At the time it certainly seemed as though Super Saiyan God itself was absorbed. Most the fanbase viewed it as fact, actually. The fact Goku used every form but Super Saiyan God throughout the next several Super arcs, with the form not coming back until the ToP, as moments where Goku's and Vegeta's base forms were massively above other characters, suggesting godly strength. But later arcs of Super contradicted that. His base form's strength relative to every other character isn't "godly" during the Universe Survival arc anymore, which, OH BOY, happens to be the same arc where they decided to bring back Super Saiyan God. Hmmm? I wonder what conclusion I could derive from that?

It's telling that from Resurrection 'F' we went from "SSGSS is what happens when a Saiyan with Godly power in their base form goes Super Saiyan" to DBS Broly where it's simply Super Saiyan on top of SSG.

Ad hominem much?

projecting much lol?

Alright this is turning into a big round of "no u". All I'll say is that you began with the ad hominems when you suggested my view was derived from not liking the idea that Goku and Vegeta are as strong as they were when "Saiyan Beyond God" was a thing, and used that suggestion to discredit my arguments. If you can't see the irony in you going "Ad hominem much?" after that, then you're just being dense.

[Sadala Elite]

Strongest natural form. Kaioken and UI obviously don't count.

You're making up rules by saying UI doesn't count lol, what do you define as a "natural" form exactly? Because Goku found a new form of power within him that isn't Super Saiyan? That's like arbitrarily saying Frieza's Golden Form isn't a "natural" form because it's a different kind of form that doesn't restrict his natural power like his 1st-3rd forms. It's arbitrary. Ultra Instinct's strength comes from Goku.
They are not natural as in non-biological. Kaioken is a technique not a transformation, and UI is something that transcends the self

Yet Goku didn't suffer any real damage nor fatigue against Berzerk Kale. Just because Goku used SSB against Kale doesn't mean he was going all out. Do you think SSB Goku was going all out Krillin lol?

Goku using SSB on Krillin is a completely different situation. The writers specifically said it was so Goku could test Krillin, which at least made sense in the context of that episode, where Goku isn't in the tournament and can afford to hold back while using a form that drains his stamina without risking their universe. Goku using SSB in the tournament is specifically said by Whis to be as-needed, and you deliberately ignoring that statement and bringing up an irrelevant situation out of context doesn't help your argument. Why would Goku use SSB, a form that drains his stamina, in the middle of a tournament mind you, if he didn't need to use it?
SSB doesn't have the same stamina problem in the anime as it does in the manga, and you failed yo address the main point that Goku didn't receive any major damage from Berzerk Kale

Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode.

Which, as I said, contradicts the earlier fight and statements in the Tournament of Power. If you keep bringing up this point we have a cyclical argument. I have evidence against this point, you use those statements against evidence as mine. This makes it boil down to a matter of opinion, so maybe you shouldn't spout your arguments as fact? Hmm.
If you accept that SSB Goku wasn't going all out against Berzerk Kale then it isn't a contradiction at all, simple

Also, the poster above me brought up another good point. Kale in her Berserk form was seen as such a powerful threat after knocking out a Pride Trooper that Jiren chose to step in. Not Toppo, not Dyspo, Jiren. This would put her Berserk form on the likes of Maji Kayo, Hit, and Goku. Keep in mind Dyspo is characterized as stepping in where he feels a fighter might not be worth Jiren's time. But again, your statement can disprove mine, while my statements can disprove yours. So maybe lets chalk it up that it's a matter of opinion and not create a cyclical, redundant debate.
Berzerk Kale was seen as threat in the anime mostly because she was outta control, not so much because of strength (the fact that SSJ2 Goku could hold her off in ep.113 proves that

Yet, didn't you make several posts about how the Super manga is canon with the movies (especially with RoF & Broly)

Yes, because those stories are glossed over in the manga, effectively encouraging the reader to watch the movie to get the full story. (Nevermind the fact the promotional manga you keep bringing up ALSO glosses over the film and ALSO encourages the reader to just watch the movie. Funny how you deliberately ignore that point as well.)
Completely missed the point of the argument lmao

The main reason why the Super manga skips RoF was because the RoF promo manga

Yet that manga page clearly depicts Beyond God, you're in denial

Toyotaro's promotional manga from before Dragon Ball Super existed is clearly a different thing, and if it were canonical to the manga it would be in the actual damned manga. Usually promotional material from stuff like the Jump Festas and whatnot make it into the volumes, so why weren't the Resurrection F chapters? Toyotaro wrote that promotional manga before he ever knew he'd be writing Super and have the choice to make changes. Saiyan Beyond God clearly contradicts how he chose to write the Battle of Gods recap, so why would he include it? There's nothing to suggest the promotional manga for RoF is canonical to Dragon Ball Super's manga. And at least by encouraging the reader to just watch the movie you avoid suggesting that concept.
You just contradicted your earlier paragraph about the promotional manga.

1st of all, he never absorbed the SSG form itself at all, he only absorbed the power he had with the form against Beerus at the time (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG, he never actually lost it)https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploa ... 645_hq.jpg

You miss the point of my argument. At the time it certainly seemed as though Super Saiyan God itself was absorbed. Most the fanbase viewed it as fact, actually. They were wrong for the same reason, because Beerus never said in any version that Goku absorbed the form itself The fact Goku used every form but Super Saiyan God throughout the next several Super arcs, with the form not coming back until the ToP, as moments where Goku's and Vegeta's base forms were massively above other characters and still are lol, suggesting godly strength. But later arcs of Super contradicted that.Where's the contradiction? Source? His base form's strength relative to every other character isn't "godly" during the Universe Survival arc anymore False. You're forgetting how Base Goku early in the ToP arc was able to match Fit Buu (the strongest Buu ever). That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan-Beyond God" wasnt a thing anymore, which, OH BOY, happens to be the same arc where they decided to bring back Super Saiyan God. Hmmm? I wonder what conclusion I could derive from that?
The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling.

It's telling that from Resurrection 'F' we went from "SSGSS is what happens when a Saiyan with Godly power in their base form goes Super Saiyan" to DBS Broly where it's simply Super Saiyan on top of SSG.
That's literally the same explanation, you're argument sounds so dumb lol

Ad hominem much?

projecting much lol?

Alright this is turning into a big round of "no u". All I'll say is that you began with the ad hominems when you suggested my view was derived from not liking the idea that Goku and Vegeta are as strong as they were when "Saiyan Beyond God" was a thing, and used that suggestion to discredit my arguments. If you can't see the irony in you going "Ad hominem much?" after that, then you're just being dense.
You failed to point out any Ad hominems in my previous post.

[Dragon Wukong]

They are not natural as in non-biological. Kaioken is a technique not a transformation, and UI is something that transcends the self

How is Ultra Instinct non-biological? The power Goku uses in that form comes from himself. Whether or not UI "transcends the self" is irrelevant. You're pulling weird headcanons out your ass to justify the idea that fusions by default are stronger than the user's strongest form. Please, please pull up some actual evidence of that statistic. At least pull up a Daizenshuu statement or anime quote or something that supports your argument, because you're saying all this stuff to backup that fusion idea with 0 weight or proof behind it.

SSB doesn't have the same stamina problem in the anime as it does in the manga

Well, first of all, you're outright wrong on Blue's stamina issue being exclusive not being in the anime, if you read my post and bothered to take a 5 second google.



This scene was from the tournament to explain why Goku wasn't using Super Saiyan Blue at that time. It's also brought up later, when Super Saiyan God comes back. So, what gives? Are you going to tell me Whis is wrong now? Please, tell me again that Goku just used Blue against Kale because? I don't know? Some reason you pulled out your ass instead of an actual statement in the series?

and you failed yo address the main point that Goku didn't receive any major damage from Berzerk Kale

Since when was that a main point? And Kale was tossing Goku around ragged and charged through his Kamehameha? The main point was that Whis' statement confirmed that Goku wouldn't have used Super Saiyan Blue unless he had to.

Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode.

If you accept that SSB Goku wasn't going all out against Berzerk Kale then it isn't a contradiction at all, simple

It's a contradiction either way, because Whis says Goku was pacing himself and not using Super Saiyan Blue unless necessary. But I guess you didn't watch the entire arc or something, because you don't seem to know (and outright deny) that that was a thing.

Berzerk Kale was seen as threat in the anime mostly because she was outta control, not so much because of strength (the fact that SSJ2 Goku could hold her off in ep.113 proves that

Which again, goes against Whis' statement on Goku's usage of Blue in the tournament.

Completely missed the point of the argument lmao

No one is going to understand the point of your argument if you're tossing invalid statements inside it. You didn't even respond with what the point of your argument was.

You just contradicted your earlier paragraph about the promotional manga.

??? When? I said most promotional content makes it into the volumes. Resurrection F's promotional manga didn't because it's not considered part of the Super manga. You keep making vague statements about how I "missed the point" or "contradicted myself" and you don't explain your reasoning at all. So why should I take you seriously?

They were wrong for the same reason, because Beerus never said in any version that Goku absorbed the form itself

Absorbing the strength of the form, followed by the form not appearing for nearly 100 episodes gives a pretty clear vision of what was originally intended to be the case.

and still are lol

If you say so lol

Where's the contradiction? Source?

It's various little things throughout Super. Base form Goku/Vegeta having any level of trouble with opponents who end up being dealt with by far less powerful people in Super, like the sniper that ended up being taken out by Tien. Or Goku needing to use any transformation against Trunks, who only had access to SS2 and was never said to have another power-up (like Gohan's justification) until midway through the arc. You can disagree, but these are inconsistencies for some people.

False. You're forgetting how Base Goku early in the ToP arc was able to match Fit Buu (the strongest Buu ever). That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan-Beyond God" wasnt a thing anymore

Sure, and you have a point there, but Buu's strength since his fission from Kid Buu has been a point of vagueness anyhow. You're definitely pulling "strongest Buu ever" out your ass if you think Buu was stronger than when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan though.

The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling

Since I'm getting to that point later, I may as well point out that this is an ad hominem.

That's literally the same explanation, you're argument sounds so dumb lol

Saying those explanations are the same thing is saying "Saiyan Beyond God" is the same thing as Super Saiyan God. But ok if you want to say I'm the one who's dumb without reading back what the image actually says, you're free to do so.

You failed to point out any Ad hominems in my previous post.

Well if you want me to do it now, this is the ad hominem statement I was referring to in my previous post.

Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.[/b]

So, ultimately, I don't think you actually paid attention when watching Dragon Ball Super (if you did you would address Whis' statements in the tournament, which you still haven't).

In addition to that, you ignore any valid points or concerns brought up in an argument to tout your personal, baseless headcanons as facts, and you attempt to discourage and shutdown any valid argument with "You only think this way because you want it to be this way." Mind you I'M the one pulling up quotes, using episodes, statements and pulling up multiple fight examples to justify my arguments. Your only response is and continues to be "You're wrong because I say it is." to justify the statement "base form fusions are always stronger than the strongest form" when as far as I can tell, that was never stated in any medium. Please, provide some evidence that that statement has any backing, and isn't just something you wish is true.

[Hugo Boss]

Since fusions work on the AxB logic, you can reconcile SSGod being stronger than Super Vegetto from Dragon Ball Z era and weaker than Super Gogeta from Dragon Ball Super era, because their base forms got massively stronger.

Even the AxB rule doesn't seem to be completely true. For one, other factors seem to affect it (with Elder Kai describing Vegito's strength as being influenced by Goku and Vegeta's rivalry for eachother.) And Kibito Kai doesn't seem to follow the rule either, as Kibito and Shin were incredibly powerful gods who (with Shin at the very least) exceeded regular Super Saiyans in their own right, yet Kibito Kai is still somehow weaker than SS3 Goku, (who according to supplementary material would only be 8 times stronger than in his Super Saiyan form.)

As for the base form thing, see the end of my previous post.

You are on point in that. The AxB logic, as far as I remember, only works on the fusions between Goku and Vegeta, because they make a perfect balanced fusion. Kibito and Shin don’t have that chemistry. Maybe not even Goten and Trunks. But I think you can get the idea that since Goku and Vegeta are the ones being discussed, it’s safe to apply this rule to their fusions.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying Goku keeping the powerlevel of SSGod in his base form is a thing. It’s only notable that he makes massive gains from training with Whis and his various battles throughout Dragon Ball Super. If he didn’t, we wouldn’t see Base Vegeta stomping SS3 Gotenks or Base Goku playing around with Freeza or Majin Boo.

[Dragon Wukong]

You are on point in that. The AxB logic, as far as I remember, only works on the fusions between Goku and Vegeta, because they make a perfect balanced fusion. Kibito and Shin don’t have that chemistry. Maybe not even Goten and Trunks. But I think you can get the idea that since Goku and Vegeta are the ones being discussed, it’s safe to apply this rule to their fusions.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying Goku keeping the powerlevel of SSGod in his base form is a thing. It’s only notable that he makes massive gains from training with Whis and his various battles throughout Dragon Ball Super. If he didn’t, we wouldn’t see Base Vegeta stomping SS3 Gotenks or Base Goku playing around with Freeza or Majin Boo.

To be fair, my general assumption was base Vegeta against Gotenks and whatnot came from before they decided to retcon the "absorbed SSG" stuff.

[miguelnuva1]

Ultra Instinct is breaking Goku's limits, that is not a natural, it's a transformation that is forcing his body to to go to an higher level of power.

That being said Ssj3 before BoG was the same thing.

As for Kale she was stated stronger controlled than Beserk I though, Goku's SS God was stronger than his Blue during the first fight makes more sense.

[DBZ Macky]

If Goku/Vegeta are not using the maximum amount of power available to them, then they're most likely holding back against his opponent.

Spoiler:

While we see in the Vegeta vs Magetta fight, how Magetta almost defeated Vegeta, it makes no sense why Vegeta wouldn't at least try to even go Super Saiyan 2. Here Goku says Vegeta wasn't using his full power, so it's likely that Goku and Vegeta were using nowhere near their full power against the Universe 6 fighters until Hit joins the fray.

Similarly, if Goku was really getting overpowered by Kale, he should've used the Kaio-Ken.

Goku can go from getting hurt from bullets to being able to damage Blue tier opponents. In his Base Form, he can injure Hit and tank Sidra's Hakai Energy that even Golden Freeza had trouble handling.

Spoiler:

Maybe Goku and Vegeta probably are close to BoG-era Super Saiyan God's level of power even in their weaker forms, but they more than likely aren't going all out when using those forms anyways.

Quite frankly, trying to scale the Base Saiyans in the Toei Anime is futile anyways when it's the same Toei that were doing stuff like this back in the day:

Spoiler:

There are only two explanations that make sense to me:

1. Goku and Vegeta (without the God forms) aren't actually much stronger than their Buu era counterparts, but are able to contend with God tier opponents by the sheer difference in skill. This is supported by the fact that this is the literal explanation given in the Anime when Base Goku fights on par with SS2 Caulifla, who herself was fighting on par with SS2 Goku earlier.

2. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than almost everyone even in their Base forms. The only reason they might appear weaker is because they actively handicap themselves. Why? Either to save stamina, or to actually enjoy a fight since they are in an awkward position where they're much stronger than the lower tiers like Gohan, Piccolo etc. while being much weaker than the higher tiers like Jiren and the Gods.

There's no middle ground, pick your poison.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If Goku/Vegeta are not using the maximum amount of power available to them, then they're most likely holding back against his opponent.

Spoiler:

While we see in the Vegeta vs Magetta fight, how Magetta almost defeated Vegeta, it makes no sense why Vegeta wouldn't at least try to even go Super Saiyan 2. Here Goku says Vegeta wasn't using his full power, so it's likely that Goku and Vegeta were using nowhere near their full power against the Universe 6 fighters until Hit joins the fray.

Similarly, if Goku was really getting overpowered by Kale, he should've used the Kaio-Ken.

Goku can go from getting hurt from bullets to being able to damage Blue tier opponents. In his Base Form, he can injure Hit and tank Sidra's Hakai Energy that even Golden Freeza had trouble handling.

Spoiler:

Maybe Goku and Vegeta probably are close to BoG-era Super Saiyan God's level of power even in their weaker forms, but they more than likely aren't going all out when using those forms anyways.

Quite frankly, trying to scale the Base Saiyans in the Toei Anime is futile anyways when it's the same Toei that were doing stuff like this back in the day:

Spoiler:

There are only two explanations that make sense to me:

1. Goku and Vegeta (without the God forms) aren't actually much stronger than their Buu era counterparts, but are able to contend with God tier opponents by the sheer difference in skill. This is supported by the fact that this is the literal explanation given in the Anime when Base Goku fights on par with SS2 Caulifla, who herself was fighting on par with SS2 Goku earlier.

2. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than almost everyone even in their Base forms. The only reason they might appear weaker is because they actively handicap themselves. Why? Either to save stamina, or to actually enjoy a fight since they are in an awkward position where they're much stronger than the lower tiers like Gohan, Piccolo etc. while being much weaker than the higher tiers like Jiren and the Gods.

There's no middle ground, pick your poison.

Agreed. I go with option 2. Cause frankly, Whis' training between BoG and Res F allowed for Goku to battle a Freeza who trained and himself was stronger than ever before. You know, classic powering up.

[Dragon Wukong]

Similarly, if Goku was really getting overpowered by Kale, he should've used the Kaio-Ken.

I don't believe Goku was truly being "overpowered" by Kale, as like you said he would've simply used Kaioken if that was truly needed. But everything else does paint it such that Super Saiyan God would not have been enough to deal with her, else he would've used that instead, as with Dyspo.

As for everything else, honestly you got a point that some of the fights are just Toei being Toei. Strength consistency hasn't been their strong suit, but it certainly does seem like the "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff (and the fact it may have been retconned) muddies it up a bit.

Well, as far as justifications go, I'd probably rather go with 1, just because of how awkward 2 feels to me.