Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Brettjr25]

Can someone explain to me how Moro is able to handle Merus' angelic power just because he merged with the planet? Planets are not tough in the DBverse, Saiyan arc Vegeta proved this, so why is it that one planet is somehow able to handle ANGELIC power? Shouldn't the planet just blow up from the sheer amount of energy it got from Moro?

Moro body kept on expanding to hold in the power up to the point he was a bloated unmovable mess, so I assumed that it wasn't talking about the potential power but how much mass you have to physically store the power in your cells or whatever. When Moro merged with the power I assuming the planet became his body, like each and every once of the planet is a cell apart of him. With that amount of mass, the "angel power" can flow throughout the planet, the power has a place to go. Well that's my assumption anyway.

It would be funny if Moro wins and just floats around space as a living death star firing beams and absorbing other planets. It would make a nice origin to a comic book villain lol. Ok new versus thread, Planet Moro vs Galactus

[UI Peter]

And it's also worth remembering that, in Dragon Ball Cosmology, a Galaxy is quarter of the Mortal Universe in any case, so proportionately it's rather more significant than it sounds.

How is it? There's a considerable amount of them.

Why would you use anime material to address a manga statement?

The "only 4 galaxies" myth has been debunked many years ago, and Super futher shows this by showing Super Shenron being larger than thousands of galaxies.

As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been an explicit statement or demonstration in the manga (Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Super) that contradicts the Official Guidebooks in saying that there are 4 (however the word 'Galaxy' may be defined there). Perhaps you could provide one?

The 90s Daizenshuu itself clarified that the living portion of the DB verse is the same size as the real life universe, and that the afterlife itself is 2x that size, debunking the "only 4 galaxies" nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps. ... vPgWP61qYL

[Magnificent Ponta]

The 90s Daizenshuu itself clarified that the living portion of the DB verse is the same size as the real life universe, and that the afterlife itself is 2x that size, debunking the "only 4 galaxies" nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps. ... vPgWP61qYL

Thanks for your reply. The resource you linked to seems to have its information mostly cribbed from Kanzenshuu/Herms's topics on the subject (right down to the images), which both refer to there being 4 Galaxies/areas (the terms appear to be interchangeable, or at least not clearly distinguished) in the DB Universe, taking directly from Daizenshuu 7 on this.

I don't want to stray too far off-topic or anything, but since a 'galaxy' appears to be a divine universal administrative unit rather than denoting 'the Milky Way' or whatever specific Galaxy we may recognise from our reality, is there anything obvious to say that Whis isn't using the word in this fashion, irrespective of the size of the cosmos itself?

[Brettjr25]

The 90s Daizenshuu itself clarified that the living portion of the DB verse is the same size as the real life universe, and that the afterlife itself is 2x that size, debunking the "only 4 galaxies" nonsense.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps. ... vPgWP61qYL

Thanks for your reply. The resource you linked to seems to have its information mostly cribbed from Kanzenshuu/Herms's topics on the subject (right down to the images), which both refer to there being 4 Galaxies/areas (the terms appear to be interchangeable, or at least not clearly distinguished) in the DB Universe, taking directly from Daizenshuu 7 on this.

I don't want to stray too far off-topic or anything, but since a 'galaxy' appears to be a divine universal administrative unit rather than denoting 'the Milky Way' or whatever specific Galaxy we may recognise from our reality, is there anything obvious to say that Whis isn't using the word in this fashion, irrespective of the size of the cosmos itself?

Blowing up a universe is such a.. I don't know how to say it but very improbable. I think the issue is that galaxy has been used so much that it seems like a bigger term should be used but truth is the natural progression from blowing up a planet is solar system. During Cell games Cell should of been capable destroying a solar system not galaxy, not sure if Toriyama used that or if it was a mistranslation but its what we got. As for what's bigger than galaxy, galaxy vary in sizes. There are galaxies 10 or 50 times bigger than our galaxy. A galaxy is a cluster of things, not a size.

Honestly until super when they were implying that Beerus and Goku clashing could make explosions that would destroy a galaxy, I always thought the "blow up a galaxy" expression referred to the amount of power contained not capable. Like how you hear that we have enough nukes to blow the earth up X times. If we set off all our nukes at once it wouldn't actually blow up earth you know.

[Miracles]

Toriyama's eternal law: The "strongest" enemy is "always" current. That's why Goku said Moro is the strongest [toughest, but in context, he's talking strength] he has ever faced. I warned yall about this.

Yep we have actual confirmation now. No need to look through old interviews or provide alternative interpretations of direct statements because the story has Goku flat-out confirm it. If what the Oracle Fish said still holds true then we should be expecting a rematch between Goku and Beerus before the end of the series. Would you say it's still true even if that rematch never happens?

The rematch will happen since Goku hasn't "become a formidable rival" for Beerus yet. This is an already cemented, unequivocal and blunt story point that has been reinforced before the TOP. As one reads DBS, they need to keep this plot point in mind. Same with Toriyama's statement in a BoG interview [The story that started off Super] about the current enemy "always" being "strongest." That is eternal law, without room for interpretation by Toriyama. Since he said it will "always" be the case in DB. Fans who have not read that interview does not magically make that universal law void. As Goku's statement about Moro being the strongest he has faced, demonstrates such. As well as Goku growing stronger, while defeating all these current "strongest" enemies so he can fulfill the prophecy of being at a level to challenge Beerus. It's just facts.

BTW, Those who claim durability is not powered up by Ki were wrong too. Moro tried to punch UI Goku and Moro's hand broke on his chest. Moro is bigger than Goku BTW, lol. When Moro powered up with angel ability, Goku and Moro were stated to be even. Hence why both can clash equally. This again reinforces Toriyama's other law, stating the one with the biggest ki size wins the battle. Since there are limits to physical strength.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's a good thing Goku tends to never have actual rematches with rivals and old enemies who once surpassed him once he surpasses him.

Because Beerus with his confirmed God of Destruction level of power would get DEMOLISHED by the nearing-Angelic level of power Ultra Instinct Goku is putting out.

The fact that Jiren was the only one to even get close to this without relying on anything besides his own power, speed, and tenacity is extremely impressive.

[Nevaeh]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

[Triggered Vegeta]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

Yeah, I agree. At this point Goku is more than enough to match Beerus who only can use UI sign. I believe it will later be revealed that Beerus got off his ass and hit the weights in order to match Goku with his own UI(Completed) Hard to believe Goku isn't considered a formidable Rival at this stage tbh.

[GodVegetto91]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

You’re trying to pass this off as an OBJECTIVE FACT, (clearly as seen in your demeanor of your post)....

This is false..

The TRUTH is...

We DON’T KNOW where Beerus stands!

This has absolutely nothing to do with “denialism” as you frame it, but everything to do with being objective and open minded.

The fact is, neither current MUI Goku NOR Moro Merus have been compared to Beerus in any way..

And while this doesn’t outright prove that they aren’t above him, it also most certainly doesn’t prove that they ARE above him either!

The facts are, that both Future Trunks Arc SSB Vegito aswell as SSJ Full Power Broly HAVE both been compared to Beerus in any way...

So make of that what you will.

[Jack Bz]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

You’re trying to pass this off as an OBJECTIVE FACT, (clearly as seen in your demeanor of your post)....

This is false..

The TRUTH is...

We DON’T KNOW where Beerus stands!

This has absolutely nothing to do with “denialism” as you frame it, but everything to do with being objective and open minded.

The fact is, neither current MUI Goku NOR Moro Merus have been compared to Beerus in any way..

And while this doesn’t outright prove that they aren’t above him, it also most certainly doesn’t prove that they ARE above him either!

The facts are, that both Future Trunks Arc SSB Vegito aswell as SSJ Full Power Broly HAVE both been compared to Beerus in any way...

So make of that what you will.

If Broly has been compared to Beerus, and Goku has called Moro the toughest opponent he's ever faced, then doesn't that at the very least put Moro at Beerus tier? And someone at that tier is breaking their arm even trying to hit Goku now.

[Devilman21/]

Actually, there was a point the fight became too difficult for him to keep up, so Goku doesn’t have the full knowledge. Not to say he can’t make an educated guess based on what he saw, but his assessment might be off, to an unknown extent.

Fair point. However keep in mind just because he wasn't able to follow the battle, doesn't mean he couldn't sense it. He should've been able to debate Beerus's power & then compare that to the power he sensed from Moro. So I personally feel it holds up.

He can’t sense the ki of a god, he told that to Toppo in the manga. You might be confusing it with the anime, where they learn that ability.

I just went back to check and you are correct! I completely forgot about that. Can he sense god ki as a SSG/SSB? Very interesting.

[Nevaeh]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

You’re trying to pass this off as an OBJECTIVE FACT, (clearly as seen in your demeanor of your post)....

This is false..

The TRUTH is...

We DON’T KNOW where Beerus stands!

This has absolutely nothing to do with “denialism” as you frame it, but everything to do with being objective and open minded.

The fact is, neither current MUI Goku NOR Moro Merus have been compared to Beerus in any way..

And while this doesn’t outright prove that they aren’t above him, it also most certainly doesn’t prove that they ARE above him either!

The facts are, that both Future Trunks Arc SSB Vegito aswell as SSJ Full Power Broly HAVE both been compared to Beerus in any way...

So make of that what you will.

We do know where Beerus stands. He's Broly's equal or slightly weaker. Moro was just stated to be the strongest, aka stronger than Broly. Making him stronger than Beerus too. This same Moro broke his hand punching Goku

Unless Beerus starts training he's going to end like Piccolo and every other "rival" not named Vegeta

[GodVegetto91]

You're suffering from a severe case of denial if you still think Goku hasn't become a "formidable rival"

The one that needs to prove he's a rival is Beerus. As of right now Goku can just stand there and watch Beerus break himself in half trying to hurt him. Beerus is old news now

You’re trying to pass this off as an OBJECTIVE FACT, (clearly as seen in your demeanor of your post)....

This is false..

The TRUTH is...

We DON’T KNOW where Beerus stands!

This has absolutely nothing to do with “denialism” as you frame it, but everything to do with being objective and open minded.

The fact is, neither current MUI Goku NOR Moro Merus have been compared to Beerus in any way..

And while this doesn’t outright prove that they aren’t above him, it also most certainly doesn’t prove that they ARE above him either!

The facts are, that both Future Trunks Arc SSB Vegito aswell as SSJ Full Power Broly HAVE both been compared to Beerus in any way...

So make of that what you will.

We do know where Beerus stands. He's Broly's equal or slightly weaker. Moro was just stated to be the strongest, aka stronger than Broly. Making him stronger than Beerus too. This same Moro broke his hand punching Goku

Unless Beerus starts training he's going to end like Piccolo and every other "rival" not named Vegeta

Moro 73 was NOT stated to be the “strongest”.. That’s your headcanon, right there. He was stated to be the “toughest”. Big difference. And characters say stuff like this all the time to hype someone up. It really doesn’t mean much. Especially since we know that it usually always gets contradicted in future episodes/chapters/movies.

The only thing we know for certain is that Moro Merus is stronger than Jiren.

(As he fought on par with a much superior MUI Goku than the one that Jiren fought on par with during the ToP.)

Broly has been compared to Beerus because he is Fusion level. Equal to the old SSB Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc, and forcing a current (post ToP) Gogeta to go SSJ Blue against him... (Who by the way is already stronger than SSJ Blue Goku in his mere BASE Form.)

Are you arguing that MUI is a bigger boost over SSJ Blue then SSJ Blue is over Base???

[Xeno Goku Black]

So a Universe in Dragon Ball is three times the size of our Universe due to including Otherworld?

When characters like Beerus say they'll destroy the Universe...does he mean he's just going to destroy the Mortal Universe then? Otherwise where else will he reside?

[Thani]

So a Universe in Dragon Ball is three times the size of our Universe due to including Otherworld?

When characters like Beerus say they'll destroy the Universe...does he mean he's just going to destroy the Mortal Universe then? Otherwise where else will he reside?

I would think pretty much this, there would absolutely no point to jeopardize the Otherworld. BUT the shockwaves from Beerus' and Goku's clashes were reaching all the way to the Kaioshin Realm which, if not outside of the universe still, is at least in the Otherworld.

So I would say it's including everything in the universe, up to and including it's inner dimensions like the Otherworld, the Kaioshin realm and the Demon Realm.

[JewyB]

So a Universe in Dragon Ball is three times the size of our Universe due to including Otherworld?

When characters like Beerus say they'll destroy the Universe...does he mean he's just going to destroy the Mortal Universe then? Otherwise where else will he reside?

I imagine most enemies = The mortal universe, Beerus though, i'd imagine the otherworld too, he'd just blip out U7 and restart i'd guess, it's kind of his job.

[Xeno Goku Black]

On a side note, how does one travel from the mortal universe to the otherworld aside from death then?

Goku just teleports over to there. Is it a separate dimension entirely? Because Whis and Beerus travelled from King Kai's to Earth. Did they have to go somewhere to pass over between dimensions?

Like if you got a spaceship and you took it from Earth then could you fly it to King Kai's or the Supreme Kai's?

[Hugo Boss]

On a side note, how does one travel from the mortal universe to the otherworld aside from death then?

Goku just teleports over to there. Is it a separate dimension entirely? Because Whis and Beerus travelled from King Kai's to Earth. Did they have to go somewhere to pass over between dimensions?

Like if you got a spaceship and you took it from Earth then could you fly it to King Kai's or the Supreme Kai's?

This question may require a different thread to catch the most attention.

[Thani]

On a side note, how does one travel from the mortal universe to the otherworld aside from death then?

Goku just teleports over to there. Is it a separate dimension entirely? Because Whis and Beerus travelled from King Kai's to Earth. Did they have to go somewhere to pass over between dimensions?

Like if you got a spaceship and you took it from Earth then could you fly it to King Kai's or the Supreme Kai's?

This question may require a different thread to catch the most attention.

Like Hugo said. But to extrapolate, at least with Whis and Beerus you have the excuse that they're godlike beings. Whis' warp techinique could very well cross dimensions (since he can go outside U7 with it, like go to the Omniking's palace), and Beerus may have a similar power. They also hold huge authority on the Otherworld (since Gods of Destruction, together with the Kaioshin, are the Top Gods of a given universe), so it's also possible they can get in and out whenever they want.

So, to me, no, you can't just get a spaceship and travel to the afterlife. It's a separate, superior, dimension on top of the physical universe.

[Dragon Wukong]

Moro 73 was NOT stated to be the “strongest”.. That’s your headcanon, right there. He was stated to be the “toughest”. Big difference. And characters say stuff like this all the time to hype someone up. It really doesn’t mean much. Especially since we know that it usually always gets contradicted in future episodes/chapters/movies.

The only thing we know for certain is that Moro Merus is stronger than Jiren.

(As he fought on par with a much superior MUI Goku than the one that Jiren fought on par with during the ToP.)

Broly has been compared to Beerus because he is Fusion level. Equal to the old SSB Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc, and forcing a current (post ToP) Gogeta to go SSJ Blue against him... (Who by the way is already stronger than SSJ Blue Goku in his mere BASE Form.)

Are you arguing that MUI is a bigger boost over SSJ Blue then SSJ Blue is over Base???

To be completely fair, "toughest" is only the official translation, fan translators had also translated it as "strongest" before the Viz release. So it's entirely plausible Moro is indeed the strongest opponent Goku has faced yet. We'd need the original japanese words used for an accurate assessment.

It certainly does seem to be the case now that Beerus has been surpassed.