Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

What piece of evidence suggests that the U6 Saiyans were below the Buu Arc Saiyans?

[ankokudaishogun]

Base Cabba's power level was roughly on par with Vegeta's. The difference was in their SKILL.

Once transformed, SS Cabba was still roughly on the same power level of SS Vegeta. Again the difference only was in their skills, including how to manage the SS transformation.

In both cases, Vegeta was evidently not going "all out" by using all of his skills to battle Cabba, quite obviously to see how strong the young Saiyan could become.
But there is nothing suggesting they had a significantly different raw power level both as base or SS

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even in skill and technique Cabba seemed very experienced vs Vegeta, with smart tactics like blinding him with the sun and all. Caulifla did seem very green by comparison, but maybe Goku is just that good.

[QuakingStar]

Base Cabba's power level was roughly on par with Vegeta's. The difference was in their SKILL.

Once transformed, SS Cabba was still roughly on the same power level of SS Vegeta. Again the difference only was in their skills, including how to manage the SS transformation.

In both cases, Vegeta was evidently not going "all out" by using all of his skills to battle Cabba, quite obviously to see how strong the young Saiyan could become.
But there is nothing suggesting they had a significantly different raw power level both as base or SS

Skill doesn't enable you to tank an enraged SS's full force punch to the forehead as if it was a feather landing there. He also just got done fighting Magetta before this. Cabba was simply never on his level for real, it was just the authors way of showing Vegeta giving praise while testing and then training Cabba. Then the author wanted to show us that Cabba was never on his level by having Vegeta close his eyes, smile, and absolutely zero effort tank SS Cabba's enraged punch to his forehead.

[Goku9001]

Base Cabba's power level was roughly on par with Vegeta's. The difference was in their SKILL.

Once transformed, SS Cabba was still roughly on the same power level of SS Vegeta. Again the difference only was in their skills, including how to manage the SS transformation.

In both cases, Vegeta was evidently not going "all out" by using all of his skills to battle Cabba, quite obviously to see how strong the young Saiyan could become.
But there is nothing suggesting they had a significantly different raw power level both as base or SS

Skill doesn't enable you to tank an enraged SS's full force punch to the forehead as if it was a feather landing there. He also just got done fighting Magetta before this. Cabba was simply never on his level for real, it was just the authors way of showing Vegeta giving praise while testing and then training Cabba. Then the author wanted to show us that Cabba was never on his level by having Vegeta close his eyes, smile, and absolutely zero effort tank SS Cabba's enraged punch to his forehead.

You have yet to prove how Vegeta testing Cabba proves that Base Vegeta was stronger than Cabba. We've already presented counterexamples that go against this so you'll need another argument to support why Vegeta was holding back against Cabba.

[ankokudaishogun]

Even in skill and technique Cabba seemed very experienced vs Vegeta, with smart tactics like blinding him with the sun and all. Caulifla did seem very green by comparison, but maybe Goku is just that good.

Cabba being less skilled, at least in managing the SS state, doesn't make him a noob: he's still the best (able) fighter in the Sadala Army, which implies a reasonable experience in battle.

[QuakingStar]

Even in skill and technique Cabba seemed very experienced vs Vegeta, with smart tactics like blinding him with the sun and all. Caulifla did seem very green by comparison, but maybe Goku is just that good.

Cabba being less skilled, at least in managing the SS state, doesn't make him a noob: he's still the best (able) fighter in the Sadala Army, which implies a reasonable experience in battle.

You are correct, Cabba is one of the strongest Saiyans in U6 and had been fighting and training apparently for a long time, in order to fight for good. It takes "Super Saiyan Fourth Grade" aka mastery of Super Saiyan to get SS2. To be able to regulate the users emotions and energy is part of that too. Cabba and Caulifla both mastered SS. In U6 v U7 Cabba indeed used anger to achieve SS but like Goten and Trunks he did not seem to be affected by it like at the end of the battle like Gohan, Vegeta and Goku were with him seemingly managing to control the emotions and energy after Vegeta tanked his punch to the forehead. They repeatedly keep saying Vegeta and Cabba were the same strength when that's clearly not true. Vegeta was holding back and Cabba was matching that level of power Vegeta was using. It's the same as when Cell was holding back yet essentially he was saying he and Goku were tied.

[ZombieVito]

So are we really going to ignore the damage Cabba received being hit (Repeatedly) by someone 50 times stronger than him?

[Goku9001]

What is the argument behind Cabba and Caulifa being weaker than the Buu Arc Saiyans? The fact that Goku initially claimed that Caulifa didn't have what it took to learn Super Saiyan 3?

[ZombieVito]

What is the argument behind Cabba and Caulifa being weaker than the Buu Arc Saiyans? The fact that Goku initially claimed that Caulifa didn't have what it took to learn Super Saiyan 3?

People can't accept that these new characters can solo Z.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here’s a quick tier list I’ve made trying to connect the dots from the movies, anime and manga with their overlapping info, though I did dig up some medium-specific forms to explain stuff here and there. This list only has SSJB+ characters from the FT Saga and beyond, with anything before being either redundant, obvious or too unclear.

Spoiler:

Tier 1
Gogeta Blue/Vegetto Blue
Hakaishins
Gohan Beast/Cell MAX
LSSJ Broly
Jiren/UI Goku
Cel MAX (Weakened)

Seeing how powerful Gogeta is vs Broly, Toyotaro might have been up to something when he had Vegetto rivaling Beerus. Piccolo said they could never have beaten Cell Max without Gamma 2’s help, so Cell at his peak might have rivaled Gohan before he was worn down to barely stomping Piccolo level.

Tier 2
SSJ Gogeta/SSJ Broly
SSJ2 Kefla/UI Sign Goku
Orange Piccolo

Although Kefla only becomes a SSJ2 in the anime, I decided to include her here since it gives us a solid ground on how strong UI Sign is. I imagine AT wasn’t being very strict when he said Piccolo rivaled Goku now, since Ultimate Piccolo alone was already rivaling SSJB Goku. Broly and Gogeta fit in this tier merely because they’re between Hakaishin and SSJB levels, but they’re probably closer to the former.

Tier 3
Hit
Merged Zamasu
Toppo
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta
Golden Freeza
Ultimate Gohan/SSJ Kefla
Gamma 1/Gamma 2
Ultimate Piccolo/Android 17
Ikari Broly

Everyone here is more or less in the same level here, with Hit and Zamasu only on top because of their respective haxes. Kefla’s power seems to vary wildly in both mediums, but in reality she’s kind of the same: Anime Kefla was dead even with Goku’s strongest non UI power, and Manga Kefla is on pair with Gohan. Gohan is said to be stronger than 17 in the Moro Saga (before training), so just like his anime self he’s probably right on Goku’s back. MZ is in this tier because it’s where AT originally planned him to be (just enough to require Goku and Vegeta teaming up), and with Blue Fusion being confirmed to be GoD level while MZ was forgotten, the manga version of Vegetto vs MZ is more valid here.

Tier 4
SSJR Goku Black/SSJR Future Trunks

Just an extra tier to reinforce how Black has fallen behind still in his own saga, and that Beast Gohan gives support to the idea of hybrids having their own god-like transformations.

[Skar]

What piece of evidence suggests that the U6 Saiyans were below the Buu Arc Saiyans?

The only comparison I remember between the U6 Saiyans and Z Saiyans was Freeza commenting on SSJ Caulifa. I know some people don't like taking direct statements very directly but I don't think anything contradicts it in the manga. It would be worth pointing out that this young Saiyan surpassed SSJ Goku on Namek without transforming and not wait until after she transformed to mention anything about her power.

The U6 Saiyans being "only" that strong would still be impressive since they didn't have access to all the training methods and enemies the Z Saiyans had. Goku and Vegeta would've been far weaker without all that and only regular training on their own.

[Goku9001]

What piece of evidence suggests that the U6 Saiyans were below the Buu Arc Saiyans?

The only comparison I remember between the U6 Saiyans and Z Saiyans was Freeza commenting on SSJ Caulifa. I know some people don't like taking direct statements very directly but I don't think anything contradicts it in the manga. It would be worth pointing out that this young Saiyan surpassed SSJ Goku on Namek without transforming and not wait until after she transformed to mention anything about her power.

The U6 Saiyans being "only" that strong would still be impressive since they didn't have access to all the training methods and enemies the Z Saiyans had. Goku and Vegeta would've been far weaker without all that and only regular training on their own.

That's not really a direct power statement but beyond that, I'm referring to the anime specifically.

[Skar]

That's not really a direct power statement but beyond that, I'm referring to the anime specifically.

Well it's been discussed here how the anime has both interpretations for how strong strong the base Saiyans were. There hasn't been an agreement how which was intended to stick after BoG so maybe the next anime will clarify.

[Hugo Boss]

What is the argument behind Cabba and Caulifa being weaker than the Buu Arc Saiyans? The fact that Goku initially claimed that Caulifa didn't have what it took to learn Super Saiyan 3?

I think Goku said that mostly because Caulifla was having trouble with the Afterimage technique. No idea why this is a requirement to achieve Super Saiyan 3, but perhaps this is how Goku teaches his stuff, in contrast with Vegeta. At least, it doesn’t seem power was a problem for her but rather lack of experience with martial arts.

Speaking of power alone, Caulifla is probably evenly matched with Goku in the same forms. That’s what their fight suggests. So, in retrospect, she can probably beat anyone that SS2 Goku from Boo Arc can defeat as well.

[Grimlock]

What is the argument behind Cabba and Caulifa being weaker than the Buu Arc Saiyans?

"Realistically" speaking, chances are low that there are going to be characters at Goku and Vegeta level. They are where they are because they trained with Whis for a few years. How many people have done the same? And then they are Saiyans, which grow stronger during and after every fight, have zenkai and such. Do we know if Universe 6 Saiyans possess those traits? Cabba did say they "evolved differently" so they might not have it.

But this goes for everyone. A lot of characters will be at Goku and Vegeta level because "plot" demands, they must have challenges, but how are they at their level? Did those characters also train with their angels? How were they able to obtain such massive power? We can make exceptions, especially when we are lucky to know the reason, like in Gas' and Toppo's cases, but it does become an issue when you have a lot of characters at their level, seemingly without "resources" or "explanation" to be there.

In reality, it's stuff like the Tarble OVA which should be very common to happen. Villains coming out of nowhere, but they were too late to be a threat.

In regards to Cabba and Caulifla specifically, I also can't seem them being on par with Goku and Vegeta (in Universe 6 saga), even if they still have those known Universe 7 Saiyans' characteristics. Unless we get to know what kind of training they have and what kind of (major) battles they've had, it's really difficult to buy any of this. And there should be a limit to the "plot demands" terrible excuse.

You would think that if they are around Goku and Vegeta level from Majin Buu saga, they would have unlocked Super Saiyan at least... It's very odd that none of them had it. We saw that emotions is also a requirement for them to achieve Super Saiyan, so we must ask: have the Universe 6 current Saiyans never experienced anything? Lost someone? Pulled out a tooth?

[ZombieVito]

Power/Training gains have never cared for consistency. Plot determines power. Raditz is a good example of this. He came out of nowhere and was almost 4 times stronger than his brother who trained almost all his life with the world's strongest and even god.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Power/Training gains have never cared for consistency. Plot determines power. Raditz is a good example of this. He came out of nowhere and was almost 4 times stronger than his brother who trained almost all his life with the world's strongest and even god.

Another example! Piccolo went from as strong as base Gohan in the DBS:SH movie to gaining an Ultimate form nearly as strong as Gohan's own and an entirely new Orange form that vastly outweighed even that, all from simply having his potential unlocked.

[ZombieVito]

Power/Training gains have never cared for consistency. Plot determines power. Raditz is a good example of this. He came out of nowhere and was almost 4 times stronger than his brother who trained almost all his life with the world's strongest and even god.

Another example! Piccolo went from as strong as base Gohan in the DBS:SH movie to gaining an Ultimate form nearly as strong as Gohan's own and an entirely new Orange form that vastly outweighed even that, all from simply having his potential unlocked.

Exactly. If your reason why Cabba and the U6 Saiyans can't be that strong is just because they never had the training the U7 ones had then you simply never understood Dragon Ball.

Another even crazier example is Broly. He matched base Vegeta by simply training with his father (Who doesn't even break the 5 digits in BP) and some bugs.

[Grimlock]

I don't see how Raditz is a good example. Goku was limited by Earth's resources and the "world's strongest" as well as god pale in comparison to Saiyans. The only thing Raditz didn't have was the Room of Time, but other than that, he had everything and better at his disposal, as far as I can tell. That more than justifies him being stronger. Even training with Saibamens may have been more beneficial, to some extent.

If your reason why Cabba and the U6 Saiyans can't be that strong is just because they never had the training the U7 ones had then you simply never understood Dragon Ball.

Care to help me understand Dragon Ball?