Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:39 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:25 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:44 pm Did Vegeta get a boost during his fight with Top or not?

Seeing as Blue Evolved Vegeta is supposed to be the equal of Kaio-ken (likely X20) Goku, then could that Goku have beaten Top had he fought him?
Yeah. Either a rage boost or unlocking the full power of the transformation since in the Moro arc SSBE gives a boost on par with UI Sign instead of just x20.
Of course, it's important to note that Goku didn't have a Kaioken equivalent in the manga since both him and Vegeta went with Complete SSB, which is just SSB overall in the anime.

Goku got the Ultra Instinct Sign, Vegeta got SSB Evolution.
Of course.

I do fully believe when the Moro arc is adapted that SSBE will give the same boost to Vegeta. The form really is Vegeta's equivalent to UI Sign.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm

It was never as strong as that in the anime though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:21 pm

SSJBE Vegeta was much weaker than UI Omen Goku during the ToP in the manga. Eventually, SSJBE Vegeta is shown to be stronger than UI Omen Goku in the Moro arc and Granola arc while still presumably remaining equal in equivalent forms. I think it makes sense that Vegeta was pushing the power of SSJBE even further similar to how Trunks did with SSJ2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:27 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm It was never as strong as that in the anime though.
It was in episode 126. He beat GoD Toppo after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:35 pm

Just a technical question. Could Toronbo make Gas the strongest in the universe considering only how strong Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were during their fight at the time the wish was made? I mean, when they were in a very weakened state, or he is really is stronger than Granolah at his peak? I guess we will find out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:35 pm Just a technical question. Could Toronbo make Gas the strongest in the universe considering only how strong Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were during their fight at the time the wish was made? I mean, when they were in a very weakened state, or he is really is stronger than Granolah at his peak? I guess we will find out.
The wish should still take Broly into account so unless Broly is near-death as we speak, Gas should still be the strongest, followed by Granolah.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:36 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:27 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:09 pm It was never as strong as that in the anime though.
It was in episode 126. He beat GoD Toppo after all.
That doesn't mean he was close to Ultra Instinct Sign level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:01 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:35 pm Just a technical question. Could Toronbo make Gas the strongest in the universe considering only how strong Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were during their fight at the time the wish was made? I mean, when they were in a very weakened state, or he is really is stronger than Granolah at his peak? I guess we will find out.
Don't see AT being that technical.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:35 pm Just a technical question. Could Toronbo make Gas the strongest in the universe considering only how strong Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were during their fight at the time the wish was made? I mean, when they were in a very weakened state, or he is really is stronger than Granolah at his peak? I guess we will find out.
I mean, do you think Toronbo was only factoring Base Goku and Base Vegeta's strengths since they were in their Base forms by the time of Granola's wish?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:58 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:38 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:35 pm Just a technical question. Could Toronbo make Gas the strongest in the universe considering only how strong Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were during their fight at the time the wish was made? I mean, when they were in a very weakened state, or he is really is stronger than Granolah at his peak? I guess we will find out.
I mean, do you think Toronbo was only factoring Base Goku and Base Vegeta's strengths since they were in their Base forms by the time of Granola's wish?
Factoring the power they were able to muster at the time Gas approached them. Goku could still use SSB, so at least that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:36 am

I doubt Toronbo is that big of a troll.

The edge will come from the different techniques Gas' opponents have, like UE that makes Geets stronger as he battles, UI that you cannot touch the guy until the technique loses efficiency, and Granny's vital points attacks. But Gas should definitely be stronger than their current FP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:33 pm

Really hope we get a chance to see Gran, Vegeta and Goku all fight together with their different styles.

Feels like Gran will put up a noble but losing effort with Gas, then Vegeta and Goku will finally be well enough to pitch in.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:29 am

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:49 am
Goku9001 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:13 am What he's saying is:

Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta yet SSJB Vegeta >> SSJB Goku.

I don't think the logic holds since the context behind Vegeta taking a sensu bean and then Goku/Trunks expressing disappointment of Vegeta not getting a zenkai, hence why he was losing, clearly suggests that Vegeta was inferior due to SSJ Goku Black due to power. Therefore, if Vegeta's bursts of Super Saiyan Blue were above SSJR Goku Black, then he had to have gotten much stronger.

Thus, we should find a way to rationalize the story such that SSJB Goku (2nd Encounter) = SSJB Vegeta (2nd Encounter) in order for Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta to be the case. The most logical explanation is that Goku presumably attempted to master Super Saiyan Blue after their encounter with Goku Black.
Didn't Goku spent all his time mastering the Mafuba? I'm sure he says something like "I spent all night practicing".

I guess this is one of the many errors Toyotaro has made. Unless Goku got stronger while fighting Zamasu that he closed the gap he had with Vegeta.

Also I don't think Vegeta grew that much stronger in the RoSaT since the fact of him using the switch technique tells me that any significant power loss to his stamina would not warranty his victory against Black.
Jumping a little ways back for this, but...

The sole thing Vegeta is implied to have done with his night in the RoSaT is get rid of the stamina drain from repeated activations of Blue so he can pull off the God-Blue switching. This lets him use Blue at its absolute peak power, without it dropping off at all, by peppering in explosive bursts of it at key moments.

Blue was always just that good, but Goku and Vegeta hadn't managed to get full use out of it prior. Vegeta in his rematch with Black is stronger in a practical sense, but hasn't increased his strength traditionally.

Goku's own solution to the problems with Blue, in its perfected variant, actually does come with a net increase in power (getting more out of it than either he or Vegeta had previously)--the first sort of "traditional" power-up of the arc.

By the start of the ToP arc, Vegeta has learned the perfected variant too, and both have ironed out its strain issues, keeping them in step with one another until the climax of the arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:55 pm

Here we have "Strongest in the universe" Granolah straining to lift part of a building with telekinesis:

Meanwhile we have Perfect Cell casually lifting a mountainside with telekinesis:

Now this is a problem Dragon Ball has had for DECADES, most of the time it does a poor job of portraying that characters are getting stronger.

You go from 23rd BT Goku and Piccolo being so fast that Kami can't follow them to normal people being able to watch the fight between Goten and Trunks with no issue.

You'd think that a fight between three of the strongest beings in the universe would be a bit more spectacular but in actuality Goku, Vegeta and Granolah look weaker than Namek saga Goku and Freeza.

At this point Goku and Vegeta going all out should look more like the fight between Beerus and Champa:

But instead we get Goku and Granolah... knocking down some trees... wow such a Godly battle...

But I guess it would be harder to write a series where Goku destroys planets by flicking his wrist :roll:

Then again we have Ultra Ego Vegeta boasting that his Mega Hakai Death Ball will destroy... the planet... the same level of power he was boasting about in the SAIYAN SAGA, it's just so lacklustre. Especially since when Beerus and Champa used a similar technique, nigh universal destruction was implied:

Ironically the best feat of power we've had in the entire arc was when that random Cerelean nobody destroyed a moon. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:49 pm

Yeah, the fighters' power levels and their destructive capabilities don't often correlate, with the exception of the Gods of Destruction it seems.

But even then, that seems to be more the type of power they use rather than solely their level of strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:10 pm

That’s why I think destructive capabilities, or like some enthusiasts like to say - feats, aren’t very reliable when we are discussing who is stronger than who in Dragon Ball. You could even say this minor nitpick isn’t exclusive to Dragon Ball either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:21 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:29 am
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:49 am
Goku9001 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:13 am What he's saying is:

Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta yet SSJB Vegeta >> SSJB Goku.

I don't think the logic holds since the context behind Vegeta taking a sensu bean and then Goku/Trunks expressing disappointment of Vegeta not getting a zenkai, hence why he was losing, clearly suggests that Vegeta was inferior due to SSJ Goku Black due to power. Therefore, if Vegeta's bursts of Super Saiyan Blue were above SSJR Goku Black, then he had to have gotten much stronger.

Thus, we should find a way to rationalize the story such that SSJB Goku (2nd Encounter) = SSJB Vegeta (2nd Encounter) in order for Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta to be the case. The most logical explanation is that Goku presumably attempted to master Super Saiyan Blue after their encounter with Goku Black.
Didn't Goku spent all his time mastering the Mafuba? I'm sure he says something like "I spent all night practicing".

I guess this is one of the many errors Toyotaro has made. Unless Goku got stronger while fighting Zamasu that he closed the gap he had with Vegeta.

Also I don't think Vegeta grew that much stronger in the RoSaT since the fact of him using the switch technique tells me that any significant power loss to his stamina would not warranty his victory against Black.
Jumping a little ways back for this, but...

The sole thing Vegeta is implied to have done with his night in the RoSaT is get rid of the stamina drain from repeated activations of Blue so he can pull off the God-Blue switching. This lets him use Blue at its absolute peak power, without it dropping off at all, by peppering in explosive bursts of it at key moments.

Blue was always just that good, but Goku and Vegeta hadn't managed to get full use out of it prior. Vegeta in his rematch with Black is stronger in a practical sense, but hasn't increased his strength traditionally.

Goku's own solution to the problems with Blue, in its perfected variant, actually does come with a net increase in power (getting more out of it than either he or Vegeta had previously)--the first sort of "traditional" power-up of the arc.

By the start of the ToP arc, Vegeta has learned the perfected variant too, and both have ironed out its strain issues, keeping them in step with one another until the climax of the arc.
Yeah, Perfected Blue is a big power up since it's stated that Fused Zamasu got a big fusion boost and Goku matched him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:28 pm

Yeah, you can't tell a story like this one and be "realistic" about it, even in-universe. The suspension of disbelief has to kick in sooner or later and it's not a bad thing either.

This type of feats exist and are relevant only for that moment and then they are gone. I mean, Earth shouldn't be there anymore ever since Piccolo fought 17.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:40 pm

I just go with the ol' "ki control" idea. They're making every attack precise so as to damage their opponent more than the environment. The attacks are just well concentrated. As far as Granolah struggling with the tower ... that's just wack. I guess an excuse is he's just getting used to that power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:09 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:40 pm I just go with the ol' "ki control" idea. They're making every attack precise so as to damage their opponent more than the environment. The attacks are just well concentrated. As far as Granolah struggling with the tower ... that's just wack. I guess an excuse is he's just getting used to that power.
Just because Granolah is the strongest in the universe doesn't mean his telekinesis is good.

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