Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:48 pm

We know that Gohan can still access his Super Saiyan forms. It just doesn't seem to make much sense for him to do that because he completely ditched this transformation after he got back to his prime in the ToP arc (both anime and manga). Even though DBS seems to treat his Ultimate state as an entirely separate form (just like Super Saiyan forms), it hasn't changed the fact that once Gohan has that state, SS forms become redundant and there's not much point in using them. Gohan only uses SS precisely when he is weakened or cannot access all of his latent power for some reason (RoF). So it remains to be seen if this was overlooked by Toriyama / the movie staff (and they just kind of ignored Gohan's previous appearence in DBS) or if it was really intentional (assuming that the trailer is right and he will use Super Saiyan in the movie)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:37 pm

Re: Ultimate and base:

Toriyama has never treated Gohan's two states as different forms in the original manga. There's a reason his appearance didn't change after obtaining Ultimate, even when powering down. His eyes kept the full outline in casual situations. The Super manga's approach is the correct one.

With that said, I think one detail people are overlooking for the trailer is that Gohan's "base" eyes aren't fully outlined, meaning he possibly lost the form again over time because he didn't train (see: Resurrection 'F') and will re-tap into its power during the film.

It's either that, or Toei really is gonna repeat the same thing they did for the TV series. I find the former possibility more likely; it isn't really in Gohan's character to use Super Saiyan if he doesn't need it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:03 pm

If, in fact, Gohan has lost it and will regain this ability in the film, then the manga is just as filler as the anime because in real life, we saw him go through that 4 years ago in the manga and 5 in the anime.

It'd be bad for the manga if the co-author doesn't even take it into account, and also for the audience, we've seen that twice, no matter how good it's done or how Toriyama-like it ends up being. There should be a limit for how many times a franchise can tell the same beat over an over in the span of a lustrum.

We'd officially have three continuities, manga, anime and movies. This would only make sense if Gohan got no development since RoF, that is dropping the manga and also the anime, that doesn't even compete anymore.


I doubt the manga will get shafted in such an obvious way, we'll have to see. I still don't discard they are pulling a base Broly vs Freeza stunt, after all he is going to be one of the main protagonists and they could be messing with our head(canon)s.

Also, we should consider the possibility that the enemies may have something to do with it. A-19 and 20 absorbed ki and there was some fuss about it when that was introduced, so who knows, maybe they can drain people in a different way too, making it impossible to use your FP, or something like that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:07 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:21 pmProbably Gohan can access both "forms". Making Ultimate officially a form now that Toriyama is writing this (In BoG, it could've been an colouring error for the ritual).
I'd say the only thing Movie 2 might establish is that, for Toriyama as well, Ultimate may also be a transformation that Gohan can go from being a Super Saiyan (if that power up seen in the trailer is indeed Gohan going from Super Saiyan to Ultimate, that is). This is something only seen in Dragon Ball Super so far, and therefore, it's Toei's interpretation that things are meant to be like this, but we know Toriyama is bound to ignore stuff. But this could be one of those examples of Toriyama accepting someone else's logic/idea.

This does raise a question: if Toriyama also sees Ultimate as a transformation, or at least, has no problem with it being treated like that, shouldn't he advise Toyotaro to do the same? I don't remember people posting images of Gohan transforming into Ultimate in the Universe Survival saga, heck, Gohan doesn't even appear with a bang at all in the manga.
VegettoEX wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:23 pm Relevant article back from 2013 about Gohan and the hair situation:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/02/28/g ... e-of-gods/
Thanks. I definitely missed that information.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:03 pm If, in fact, Gohan has lost it and will regain this ability in the film, then the manga is just as filler as the anime because in real life, we saw him go through that 4 years ago in the manga and 5 in the anime.
While I agree that'd be repetitive, it doesn't necessarily contradict any particular continuity. In fact, Gohan has gotten rusty twice already: once in the Boo arc, and again in Super.

It might even be something of a running gag that Gohan keeps losing his fully powered state after periods of inactivity because he's (understandably) too busy with his home life, or something.

We'll see.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:34 pm

We also shouldn't discard Toei's love for marketing.

FPSS Broly with green hair was not in Toriyama's head, it was Toei going crazy and nodding at Z Broly. So perhaps, Toei just chose to have SS Gohan show up as well because hey... it's Cell Games adult SS Gohan! same outfit, same enemy-spawning lab, same hair!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:50 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:08 pm It might even be something of a running gag that Gohan keeps losing his fully powered state after periods of inactivity because he's (understandably) too busy with his home life, or something.
Gohan getting stronger super-fast but ALSO getting(relatively) weak as much as fast if not faster could work as excuse to have him of any power the writers might need him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:52 am

What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?
As for Piccolo, I think him being close to Base Gohan and completely outmatched next to SSJ Gohan would be a good placement.

That said, I'm equally displeased with Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan. The only explanation I could think of right now is that he slacked off again and needs SSJ to use his lost power (Just like it was in RoF), but that's even more disappointing.
You're placing Piccolo at base Gohan's base level by the Moro arc??? In the anime, he's shown easily overpowering a SSJ2 Gohan, who's physical strength has greatly increased since the start of DBS. The point of his training is to remove the mental block preventing him from reaching his true potential now that he's trained enough to raise his power to a sufficient level.

Although we don't see them training, one can assume Piccolo was strong enough to challenge Gohan in his Ultimate form. Maybe not on the same power level, but within the range to test Gohan with his skill. We see a clear example when he first transforms.

And before we reference Goku tanking his explosion in the 2 v 2, I've pointed out many times in the past the move was clearly one of the strategies he worked on with Gohan. The explosion is meant to push anyone who can't withstand the blast off the stage, while distracting the stronger fighter enough to allow Gohan to attack. Just like he does with Goku. How was Piccolo been defined by one attack for so long when we've seen Goku employ attacks that start so weak it's insulting with different strategies in mind?
This would track with the anime but not the manga I feel.

I can't see him being base tier still after his training with Gohan in the Moro arc.
As for the magna, Goku remarks when he encounters Gohan and Piccolo about how impressed he is with each of their power gains, while acknowledging Gohan is the more powerful of the two. He also goes on to demonstrate an ability to hold his own against SSJB level characters.

As for his power at the time of DBS Super Hero, If Piccolo is able to hold his own against Gamma 1 or 2, I'd say it's further proof he's made massive strides over the series. It would be a huge plot hole, if Piccolo is able to contend with the androids, while remaining at a noticeable level below Gohan and the other higher tier Z fighers. Why would they design androids incapable of challenging Gohan, Goku, etc. At the very least, if Piccolo holds his own when fighting one of the androids, I'd say it's evidence he's well beyond the "old" definition of a SSJB tier character.

It's a massive understatement to say he's gained since his fight with Frost. I'd bet a lot that Frost would stand little chance against him at this point in the series. He'll most likely always stay distant from the top tier fighters, but he's grown in leaps and bounds from his days battling Frieza's minions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:07 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:08 pmWhile I agree that'd be repetitive, it doesn't necessarily contradict any particular continuity. In fact, Gohan has gotten rusty twice already: once in the Boo arc, and again in Super.

It might even be something of a running gag that Gohan keeps losing his fully powered state after periods of inactivity because he's (understandably) too busy with his home life, or something.

We'll see.
We technically don't know how strong Toriyama intended for them to be after RoF. It varied in the manga and anime so Toriyama might not have been to specific. I think Super Hero has enough of a timeskip that they could've lost power in both continuities to line up to where Toriyama intended now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:26 pm

larzooma wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:52 am
What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?
As for Piccolo, I think him being close to Base Gohan and completely outmatched next to SSJ Gohan would be a good placement.

That said, I'm equally displeased with Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan. The only explanation I could think of right now is that he slacked off again and needs SSJ to use his lost power (Just like it was in RoF), but that's even more disappointing.
You're placing Piccolo at base Gohan's base level by the Moro arc??? In the anime, he's shown easily overpowering a SSJ2 Gohan, who's physical strength has greatly increased since the start of DBS. The point of his training is to remove the mental block preventing him from reaching his true potential now that he's trained enough to raise his power to a sufficient level.

Although we don't see them training, one can assume Piccolo was strong enough to challenge Gohan in his Ultimate form. Maybe not on the same power level, but within the range to test Gohan with his skill. We see a clear example when he first transforms.

And before we reference Goku tanking his explosion in the 2 v 2, I've pointed out many times in the past the move was clearly one of the strategies he worked on with Gohan. The explosion is meant to push anyone who can't withstand the blast off the stage, while distracting the stronger fighter enough to allow Gohan to attack. Just like he does with Goku. How was Piccolo been defined by one attack for so long when we've seen Goku employ attacks that start so weak it's insulting with different strategies in mind?
This would track with the anime but not the manga I feel.

I can't see him being base tier still after his training with Gohan in the Moro arc.
As for the magna, Goku remarks when he encounters Gohan and Piccolo about how impressed he is with each of their power gains, while acknowledging Gohan is the more powerful of the two. He also goes on to demonstrate an ability to hold his own against SSJB level characters.

As for his power at the time of DBS Super Hero, If Piccolo is able to hold his own against Gamma 1 or 2, I'd say it's further proof he's made massive strides over the series. It would be a huge plot hole, if Piccolo is able to contend with the androids, while remaining at a noticeable level below Gohan and the other higher tier Z fighers. Why would they design androids incapable of challenging Gohan, Goku, etc. At the very least, if Piccolo holds his own when fighting one of the androids, I'd say it's evidence he's well beyond the "old" definition of a SSJB tier character.

It's a massive understatement to say he's gained since his fight with Frost. I'd bet a lot that Frost would stand little chance against him at this point in the series. He'll most likely always stay distant from the top tier fighters, but he's grown in leaps and bounds from his days battling Frieza's minions.
Gohan is not SS2 tier at all by episode 88. He's stated in the episode that he just reached the power he had in the Boo arc so even with his Ultimate form, he's still weaker than current base Goku.

It's not until episode 90 that he catches up to current Goku and that's why his base form is comparable to Goku and Vegeta's during the ToP.

Since Piccolo is comparable to base Gohan during the ToP then he too is base tier thanks to training with Ultimate Gohan between episodes 88 and 90.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:38 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:15 am
Issei189 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:28 am
Yes, Toriyama does work with Toyotaro. He reviews Toyotaro's scripts and provides suggestions, but i think you misunderstood me. All I'm saying suggesting is that Gohan evolving as a Human and not using SS again was likely a Toyotaro plot point which Toriyama never wrote because Toriyama for the most part never uses the stuff he didn't write. Now this doesn't mean that Gohan is weak in the movie just because he's using SS. What you don't seem to know is that Gohan will also use his Ultimate/Potential Unleash state in the movie as well. This is evident from Gohan's DBS Super hero figure which is Ultimate Gohan. Its labelled as Ultimate Gohan on the official DB site, so don't worry about this.
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_733.html
All this information together does at least seem to solidify that, canonically speaking, Gohan's base form power is indeed a separate thing from him using his full Ultimate State.

He can either turn Super Saiyan to access some of his latent potential, or use Ultimate to unleash all of it.
Unless there’s a “base” Gohan figure as well, I don’t think this proves anything.
ZombieVito wrote: This would track with the anime but not the manga I feel.

I can't see him being base tier still after his training with Gohan in the Moro arc.
larzooma wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:52 am You're placing Piccolo at base Gohan's base level by the Moro arc??? In the anime, he's shown easily overpowering a SSJ2 Gohan, who's physical strength has greatly increased since the start of DBS. The point of his training is to remove the mental block preventing him from reaching his true potential now that he's trained enough to raise his power to a sufficient level.

Although we don't see them training, one can assume Piccolo was strong enough to challenge Gohan in his Ultimate form. Maybe not on the same power level, but within the range to test Gohan with his skill. We see a clear example when he first transforms.
Base Gohan means Ultimate Gohan. I think this will clarify things.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:37 pm

There's your images/figures of base Gohan as well. Two of them specifically differentiating base from Ultimate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:50 pm

It's interesting to note that none of the other Saiyans have their other forms present, and yet Gohan gets this distinction between his base and Ultimate states while also lacking his Super Saiyan forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:33 pm

Gohan's hair was also originally a bit different prior to obtaining Potential Unleashed in the Boo arc, so I wouldn't think this yet disproves my theory that he's lost it again at the start of Super Hero. It is (or should be, if OG continuity is adhered to) a "transformation" only in the sense that Gohan's base appearance semi-permanently changes after unlocking it.

For the two hidden slots, my guess is either Goten and Trunks or some other forms for the existing lineup.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:20 pm

Not sure what's being said here without reading everything so what's the issue?

Gohan will have Base and Ultimate in the movie and then the trailer also showed Super Saiyan or is it Super Saiyan combined with Ultimate?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:46 pm

What do you guys think are the biggest gaps in a big fight? (not including fights like 2nd form Cell vs 16 or Reacoom vs Krilin)
These are my contenders, in any particular order, you can place them in order if you like, or add fights I've forgotten:

- Perfect Cell vs Super Vegeta (no need for words)

- SS2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell (literally made him threw up his power)

- UI Goku vs Moro73 (broke Moro's wrist while posing for a picture)

- Jiren vs SSBKKx20 Goku (just with his fucking eyes)

- Hit vs SSB Vegeta (Vegeta was stronger, but still the fight was a quick procedure due to Hit's technique)

- Vegito vs Zamasu - manga- (even in base and without a senzu he blew half of Zamasu away)

- Super Vegito vs Buuhan (strongest candy in the world)
--- was there a bigger gap between Buuhan and Goku and Vegeta before they fused?

- SS Broly vs SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta (they ran away and fused)

- Z Broly vs Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo (arms crossed, dodging and tanking)

- Super 13 vs Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo (he seemed invincible)

(I left out Freeza vs Goku and anything involving Beerus because well it's Beerus, and because Freeza was waaaay above Goku and just playing)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:33 pm

Jiren vs. SSB-KKx20 Goku is especially prominent because of what it entails compared to DBZ.

Dude didn't even BUDGE from any of Goku's attacks most of the time when he pulled out the Kaioken; literally, you slow down and pause during those moments and you see that Goku kinda just bounces off ineffectually when Jiren doesn't dodge or block an attack. So already, the gap is big enough that Jiren could let Goku wail on him in SSB-KKx20 without even being budged if he so chose.

But then comes the Genkidama struggle.

It's important to note that the last time an antagonist managed to push back the Genkidama, it was with Pure Buu against tired out base Goku. Pure Buu was a match in raw power to SS3 Goku at that point in the series, and yet Goku still held him off better. Pure Buu was barely able to push back the Genkidama with his arms and easily overwhelmed once Goku gained energy to turn Super Saiyan. Meanwhile, Jiren just casually stares it down to a stalemate with SSB-KKx20 Goku going absolutely all out and reaching the absolute limit of his limits, to the point that the Genkidama was caught directly in the middle of these 2 and distorting from the sheer force of their struggle.

This is the strongest Goku has ever been, and yet Jiren makes the power difference between base Goku and Pure Buu positively tiny. Numerical multipliers or not, this is probably the single greatest overall difference in power the series has ever seen, especially knowing that this is with Jiren barely using any of his actual true power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:40 pm

I think Goku vs. Moro in the manga is a good contender. Jiren’s defenses were good, but Goku’s limbs never broke in contact with it. That was something else.

Z Broly’s first movie as well. He walked through a kamehameha like it was just a breeze. Not to mention he took a SS Vegeta’s kick in the neck a la Perfect Cell while he was in a suppressed form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:15 am

Some new ones that come to mind:

SSR Goku Black vs SS2 Future Trunks.
SS Trunks vs Base Future Trunks.
Piccolo vs Saonel and Pirina.
GoD Toppo vs Freeza.
M12 Ultimate Gohan vs Freeza.
SS2 Gohan vs Cell Juniors.
Base Commeson Vegeta vs SS3 Gotenks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:55 am

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:15 am Some new ones that come to mind:

SSR Goku Black vs SS2 Future Trunks.
SS Trunks vs Base Future Trunks.
Piccolo vs Saonel and Pirina.
GoD Toppo vs Freeza.
M12 Ultimate Gohan vs Freeza.
SS2 Gohan vs Cell Juniors.
Base Commeson Vegeta vs SS3 Gotenks.
The criteria is main character(s) fighting the main villain of the arc.

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