Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I think in this case we have to keep the anime and manga separate. In the anime Black never had Super Saiyan, so it wouldn't make sense if Rosé were his SSB. By definition, you need to know Super Saiyan to tap into Blue/Rosé, but if you don't have that then how can you turn into that godly form? So in the anime it makes sense that Black's Rosé is just his Super Saiyan form, whereas in the manga I can accept that Rosé is his SSB since he could become Super Saiyan.

Your last point is actually very good, I never thought of that before. I suppose it would make sense if Black went into those stressed forms, since Fused Zamasu (who was always in Rosé) basically did that with his Giant form. If we follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan, then I guess Black could also eventually unlock Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and Super Saiyan Rosé 3. If we instead follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan Blue, then I could see Black reaching an Evolved form like Vegeta did in the Tournament of Power.

Exactly. I mean Merged Zamasu kinda followed Black's transformations path. Thinking of his Halo form as stadart Rose, his grotesque/corrupted form like Rose boosted with Rage (it was Rage that pushed Zamasu to this form after all) and his giant state more like an upgraded Rose.

Imo, I can see someone who masters Rose as a form, stronger than any pure versions of Blue as I stated before, including stadart Blue, rage boosted Blue, Full Potential Blue and even Perfected Blue. More close to the realm of KK×10 Blue actually. And that's why I think that Rose is an astounding form full of amazing abilities and definitely the best efficient/power-wise. An Evolved Rose sounds totally doable.

Yeah, it's my favourite form in all of Dragon Ball (not just because aesthetically Black looks beautiful in that form, but also because as you said it is very unique/powerful). I'm not actually sure why the manga even bothered with Super Saiyan Black, since he didn't end up doing anything and just got stomped by Vegeta until he reached Rosé. I think Black having Rosé as his own Super Saiyan form is better, even just from a narrative standpoint. He is a God, so his normal Super Saiyan form is naturally stronger than that of mortals. That's why I much prefer the way the anime did it. Having Black turn Super Saiyan before Rosé cheapens him as a threat, in my opinion.

[Miracles]

I think in this case we have to keep the anime and manga separate. In the anime Black never had Super Saiyan, so it wouldn't make sense if Rosé were his SSB. By definition, you need to know Super Saiyan to tap into Blue/Rosé, but if you don't have that then how can you turn into that godly form? So in the anime it makes sense that Black's Rosé is just his Super Saiyan form, whereas in the manga I can accept that Rosé is his SSB since he could become Super Saiyan.

Your last point is actually very good, I never thought of that before. I suppose it would make sense if Black went into those stressed forms, since Fused Zamasu (who was always in Rosé) basically did that with his Giant form. If we follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan, then I guess Black could also eventually unlock Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and Super Saiyan Rosé 3. If we instead follow the idea that Rosé is just Super Saiyan Blue, then I could see Black reaching an Evolved form like Vegeta did in the Tournament of Power.

Exactly. I mean Merged Zamasu kinda followed Black's transformations path. Thinking of his Halo form as stadart Rose, his grotesque/corrupted form like Rose boosted with Rage (it was Rage that pushed Zamasu to this form after all) and his giant state more like an upgraded Rose.

Imo, I can see someone who masters Rose as a form, stronger than any pure versions of Blue as I stated before, including stadart Blue, rage boosted Blue, Full Potential Blue and even Perfected Blue. More close to the realm of KK×10 Blue actually. And that's why I think that Rose is an astounding form full of amazing abilities and definitely the best efficient/power-wise. An Evolved Rose sounds totally doable.

Yeah, it's my favourite form in all of Dragon Ball (not just because aesthetically Black looks beautiful in that form, but also because as you said it is very unique/powerful). I'm not actually sure why the manga even bothered with Super Saiyan Black, since he didn't end up doing anything and just got stomped by Vegeta until he reached Rosé. I think Black having Rosé as his own Super Saiyan form is better, even just from a narrative standpoint. He is a God, so his normal Super Saiyan form is naturally stronger than that of mortals. That's why I much prefer the way the anime did it. Having Black turn Super Saiyan before Rosé cheapens him as a threat, in my opinion.

SSJ Black was giving Blue Vegeta the business when he got Zenkai.

[SupremeKai25]

Exactly. I mean Merged Zamasu kinda followed Black's transformations path. Thinking of his Halo form as stadart Rose, his grotesque/corrupted form like Rose boosted with Rage (it was Rage that pushed Zamasu to this form after all) and his giant state more like an upgraded Rose.

Imo, I can see someone who masters Rose as a form, stronger than any pure versions of Blue as I stated before, including stadart Blue, rage boosted Blue, Full Potential Blue and even Perfected Blue. More close to the realm of KK×10 Blue actually. And that's why I think that Rose is an astounding form full of amazing abilities and definitely the best efficient/power-wise. An Evolved Rose sounds totally doable.

Yeah, it's my favourite form in all of Dragon Ball (not just because aesthetically Black looks beautiful in that form, but also because as you said it is very unique/powerful). I'm not actually sure why the manga even bothered with Super Saiyan Black, since he didn't end up doing anything and just got stomped by Vegeta until he reached Rosé. I think Black having Rosé as his own Super Saiyan form is better, even just from a narrative standpoint. He is a God, so his normal Super Saiyan form is naturally stronger than that of mortals. That's why I much prefer the way the anime did it. Having Black turn Super Saiyan before Rosé cheapens him as a threat, in my opinion.

SSJ Black was giving Blue Vegeta the business when he got Zenkai.

He was able to even the odds after that first Zenkai, but I don't recall him having a stark advantage.

Actually, never mind that. I just checked and yes, he was eventually able to overpower Vegeta.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yeah, it's my favourite form in all of Dragon Ball (not just because aesthetically Black looks beautiful in that form, but also because as you said it is very unique/powerful). I'm not actually sure why the manga even bothered with Super Saiyan Black, since he didn't end up doing anything and just got stomped by Vegeta until he reached Rosé. I think Black having Rosé as his own Super Saiyan form is better, even just from a narrative standpoint. He is a God, so his normal Super Saiyan form is naturally stronger than that of mortals. That's why I much prefer the way the anime did it. Having Black turn Super Saiyan before Rosé cheapens him as a threat, in my opinion.

SSJ Black was giving Blue Vegeta the business when he got Zenkai.

He was able to even the odds after that first Zenkai, but I don't recall him having a stark advantage.

Actually, never mind that. I just checked and yes, he was eventually able to overpower Vegeta.

But not for no reason. It wasn't just a zenkai, but Vegeta's power dropped significantly too. And in the Manga that may mean a decrease of nearly 80-90%

[Thani]

Black's SSj was basically evolving into Rosé at that point, so it wasn't JUST a zenkai. Considering his power didn't skyrocket to the point where he could kill Blue Goku and Vegeta with a finger, the jump from that SSj state to Rosé wasn't that great at all.

Black's SSj surpassed the God threshold and evolved into his own SSGSS state, that was really all there was to it.

I'll also argue that SSjRosé from the anime is just SSGSS as well. Black was initially stronger than Goku/Vegeta because, well, he was stronger than them in equivalent forms, after all. Numerical multiplications hardly, haaaaardly, matters in DBS outside of fusions, so if it doesn't make sense that Black's SSGSS isn't demolishing Goku's or Vegeta's, well, don't overthink it. The logic was simply "at that point, Rosé Black > Blue Goku/Vegeta".

[ankokudaishogun]

Anime:
Black follows the original RoF idea of "Saiyan beyond God":
Base Black is "a Saiyan with the power of a God"(the so-called "Saiyan Beyond God")
By going Super Saiyan with that divine base, he goes to Rosé, which is the equivalent of Blue because God power+Suyper Saiyan=Blue.
The hair colour might be a result of Black's own choice(I don't remember if it's implied or explicitly stated)

Manga:
Standard Saiyan transformations evolution.
Because the lack of sync with Goku's body, Zamasu was unable to use his full power, in fact he stated he couldn't even transform into SS at the begin.
His last Zenkai completed the sync between Zamasu's soul and Goku's body, which enabled him the full range of his divine soul power.
In short, he went full God Ki, and God Ki+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue.
(He might have simply decided to skip on SSGod and go straight to Blue because Goku and Vegeta were already Blue and God wouldn't have been enough, though.)
Hair colour is pink because that's the result of a Kaioh God Ki going Super Saiyan... or so said Future Zamasu.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Also, I had a question. Last time I didn't say where I would place Anilaza in the scale of the most powerful DBS characters. So would it work out like this?

Universal Spirit Bomb ≈ Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110) = Ikari/Wrathful Broly (Full Power) <= Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla) = SSJ Kefla ≈ Blue Goku (End of ToP) ≈ Blue Vegeta (End of ToP) ≈ True Golden Freeza (Broly arc, post potential training) < Blue Vegeta (FF) ≈ Merged Zamasu (peak) < Vegito Blue (FT arc) < 1st Omen ≈ Supressed Jiren < SSJ2 Kefla ≈ SSJ Broly < Anilaza (2nd Form) = Blue KK×5 Goku (End of ToP) < Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP) < 2nd Omen < GoD Toppo <= FP SSJ Broly < Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP) < Blue Evolution Vegeta (Maximum Power) < 3rd Omen = Full Power/100% Jiren < Limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren < MUI (Rage Boost) ≈ Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

Not sure if Koichiarator should be included, but if he was, then I would place him either above FF Vegeta Blue, or slightly above 1st Omen. Not sure if he could beat Supressed Jiren from EP 110. Not saying that Gohan was at that level of power (although the anime and even the manga wanted to showcase that pretty much) but he is most certainly and above Blue opponent for a Post-ToP Vegeta and Goku.

And as for Anilaza, I think that at his max power and 2nd form, he would probably be able to take on SSJ Broly with his powered up strength. Pure SSJ Broly without getting a powerup is probably below him. This is assuming that Post-ToP Goku and Vegeta are the exact same with their Broly arc counterparts (nothing indicates difference in power).

[HeroR]

Anime:
Black follows the original RoF idea of "Saiyan beyond God":
Base Black is "a Saiyan with the power of a God"(the so-called "Saiyan Beyond God")
By going Super Saiyan with that divine base, he goes to Rosé, which is the equivalent of Blue because God power+Suyper Saiyan=Blue.
The hair colour might be a result of Black's own choice(I don't remember if it's implied or explicitly stated)

Manga:
Standard Saiyan transformations evolution.
Because the lack of sync with Goku's body, Zamasu was unable to use his full power, in fact he stated he couldn't even transform into SS at the begin.
His last Zenkai completed the sync between Zamasu's soul and Goku's body, which enabled him the full range of his divine soul power.
In short, he went full God Ki, and God Ki+Super Saiyan=Super Saiyan Blue.
(He might have simply decided to skip on SSGod and go straight to Blue because Goku and Vegeta were already Blue and God wouldn't have been enough, though.)
Hair colour is pink because that's the result of a Kaioh God Ki going Super Saiyan... or so said Future Zamasu.

Black's base in the anime never had God Ki sense Trunks, Piccolo, and even Krillin could sense him.

[Hugo Boss]

Koichiarator and Anilasa only caused trouble to U7 because Goku and Vegeta were trying to conserve energy for U11. I doubt Koichiarator is stronger than Gohan or that Anilasa is stronger than SS Kafla.

[Thani]

Like HeroR said. It was a weird, black ki, but not godly yet.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Koichiarator and Anilasa only caused trouble to U7 because Goku and Vegeta were trying to conserve energy for U11. I doubt Koichiarator is stronger than Gohan or that Anilasa is stronger than SS Kafla.

But did they really hold back in the beam struggle? I mean, yes, Vegeta was using SSJ2, Goku SSJG, and Freeza was at 50% Final, all preparing for the final battle. But, when they pushed back Anilaza with their power they did reach their limit in their top forms (nothing Limit Breaking of course as they didn't have to yet, and they were also saving up energy), but considering that they went all out and only Goku could really access something beyond.

So, being at a level of KK×5 Blue would be fair. But I am one of those who think that Kefla at SSJ should be on par with Blue Goku and thus her SSJ2 would be easy work for KK, unless if she was using a ×100 multiplier for SSJ, akin to Broly's forms (due to Kale of course). Even so, she shouldn't be that far from SSJ Broly with his power up still and Anilaza could go against that power (without 17's interference he was winning).

[Hugo Boss]

SS Kafla was seemingly even with SSBlue just in the beginning, she quickly stepped up her pace and Goku had to use kaioken to get ahead in power and speed. Yet she managed to outdo kaioken. Her SS2 form was at least on par with Ultra Instinct 1st stage in raw strength. I think Piccolo said she was even more powerful than Goku.

[Grand Marshal 1]

SS Kafla was seemingly even with SSBlue just in the beginning, she quickly stepped up her pace and Goku had to use kaioken to get ahead in power and speed. Yet she managed to outdo kaioken. Her SS2 form was at least on par with Ultra Instinct 1st stage in raw strength. I think Piccolo said she was even more powerful than Goku.

Despite Goku being tired and stuff, do you think that SSJ Kefla would surpass a KK Blue if he was at max power and never took that surprise neck hit? (Beerus did say that he could barely use it after all). I have her comparable to KK Blue for that instance. But nothing above that. Which is why I give Anilaza credit. True Golden Freeza was also there.

[Questrider]

Since this is a strength discussion, I kinda have to call bullshit on Broly and the movie in general.

I have a really hard time believing this is canon and so until it's actually IN Dragon Ball Super or acknowledged in some way, whatever happened in that movie was pure garbage. Thus anything that happened there should be taken with a grain of salt.

Mind you, I did enjoy the movie.

But Freeza fighting Broly for as long as he did? Well, based on how Goku and Vegeta were doing? Pretty much impossible.

Also, the timeframe in which these things happen is nothing like the running anime. Things in the anime take forever with several power swings. And even taking that into account, there is no way in hell Frieza held off Broly for as long as he did based on how strong he was portrayed.

All the different forms Goku and Vegeta took? FOR THE SAKE OF THE MOVIE.
Fusing into Gogeta? Again, this was done as purely fan service and for the sake of the movie.

Also, regardless of your opinion, let's try to remember something about strength. I have heard people say that Hit is stronger than Frieza. Yeah, no. I don't buy it.

If we are talking pure power, HIT gets his ass kicked. HIT might be a more SKILLED fighter than Frieza but no way does HIT have that same kind of raw power.

Thus, VS fights aren't always about PURE POWER. It's about both SKILL AND POWER. If we go on power alone, it's more like- who can throw the biggest Kamehameha.

That's how I look at it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well, it's Toriyama's next big chapter into the overall DBS story, so the film as a whole is canonical to the main continuity.

Anyways, I think the film does a decent enough job giving us some gauges for where the characters lie compared to one another, at least in a general sense.

[Miracles]

lol

Toriyama's movies/plot outlines ARE THE CANON [Authority]. The anime/manga are nothing more than adaptations based on these main sources.

Freeza lasting that long against Broly will forever count.

[ankokudaishogun]

Black's base in the anime never had God Ki sense Trunks, Piccolo, and even Krillin could sense him.

that's why I said God Power and not God Ki.

I mean, he was a Kaioh\Kaiohshin-in-training, and we know Kaiohs and Kaohsins have Ki mortals can perceive yet they are still Gods

(seriously, introducing God Ki only messed up things. How ofter it even comes out? It might well have been retconned away)

[Hugo Boss]

Despite Goku being tired and stuff, do you think that SSJ Kefla would surpass a KK Blue if he was at max power and never took that surprise neck hit? (Beerus did say that he could barely use it after all). I have her comparable to KK Blue for that instance. But nothing above that. Which is why I give Anilaza credit. True Golden Freeza was also there.

We don’t know how much of kaioken Goku was using in that fight, so anywhere between 2-fold and 20-fold is acceptable. I think SS Kafla might be at about 10-fold and Goku was a fairly bit above that.

But Freeza fighting Broly for as long as he did? Well, based on how Goku and Vegeta were doing? Pretty much impossible.

Also, the timeframe in which these things happen is nothing like the running anime. Things in the anime take forever with several power swings. And even taking that into account, there is no way in hell Frieza held off Broly for as long as he did based on how strong he was portrayed.

I think that’s part of the gag. Mr. Satan also managed to stall Kid Boo for a while, but one hour seems too much yeah.

[HeroR]

Black's base in the anime never had God Ki sense Trunks, Piccolo, and even Krillin could sense him.

that's why I said God Power and not God Ki.

I mean, he was a Kaioh\Kaiohshin-in-training, and we know Kaiohs and Kaohsins have Ki mortals can perceive yet they are still Gods

(seriously, introducing God Ki only messed up things. How ofter it even comes out? It might well have been retconned away)

'God power' doesn't mean anything if you're going to say he has it, but it's sensible. By all accounts, he has mortal ki since Beerus and Whis thought it was a version of Goku until they realized his ki felt dissimilar to Goku, yet familiar.

God ki comes up quite a bit actually, like with the Gods of Destruction and it was Goku having god ki that drove Zamasu pass the breaking point.

[Issei189]

Koichiarator and Anilasa only caused trouble to U7 because Goku and Vegeta were trying to conserve energy for U11. I doubt Koichiarator is stronger than Gohan or that Anilasa is stronger than SS Kafla.

But did they really hold back in the beam struggle? I mean, yes, Vegeta was using SSJ2, Goku SSJG, and Freeza was at 50% Final, all preparing for the final battle. But, when they pushed back Anilaza with their power they did reach their limit in their top forms (nothing Limit Breaking of course as they didn't have to yet, and they were also saving up energy), but considering that they went all out and only Goku could really access something beyond.

So, being at a level of KK×5 Blue would be fair. But I am one of those who think that Kefla at SSJ should be on par with Blue Goku and thus her SSJ2 would be easy work for KK, unless if she was using a ×100 multiplier for SSJ, akin to Broly's forms (due to Kale of course). Even so, she shouldn't be that far from SSJ Broly with his power up still and Anilaza could go against that power (without 17's interference he was winning).

I'm pretty sure Vegeta was using SSJ since he had no lightning bolts around his aura and in the TOP, the Toei animators were pretty consistent with SSJ2's lightning bolts if SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Caulifla and SSJ2 Cabba are anything to go by.