Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 06, 2022 1:32 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:19 pm Who is higher up the !added Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta from Broly or Ultra Instinct Goku from the ToP?
Definitely SSJB Gogeta. Broly should at least be around Jiren and UI Goku’s level and Gogeta stomped him good.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:23 am Well I ask because some comment came out somewhere recently that if Broly could just remain calm and in control then he could probably have beaten Gogeta.

So if a calm and collected Broly could overcome Gogeta then what about Jiren and Goku?
I think that’s a reference to how Broly’s power is aways growing and how he could’ve caught up to Gogeta, not saying he was already stronger.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:31 pm Beerus and Whis never felt Vegetto or Fused Zamasu though.

They did feel Infinite Zamasu and were visibly worried. Whis even says he's got a feeling of unease that made his skin tingle which was a first in Super and hasn't been repeated since.
.They don’t really look worried to me. Whis is just acknowledging it, and says it feels “unpleasant”; a comment more on how Zamasu’s Ki feels evil than it’s side. Beerus is also just stoically staring away while talking about Zamasu, while Jiren had him sweating bullets.

There’s also Kaioshin who was in the future and says Jiren’s Ki is unlike anything he’s ever sensed before, and Vegeta saying Jiren has the strongest Ki he’d ever felt in Episode 122.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 2:46 am Likewise, Anato also claimed that he could feel an even greater power from Jiren from what Jiren was giving off. I think it's clear that Kaioshin's statement is meant to be taken in conjunction with everyone else's. The writers wanted to make it clear that Jiren is the strongest threat they had ever encountered precisely because Jiren was concealing vast reservoir of power that no one was aware of. Beerus doesn't even doubt Whis' statement when Whis claims that Jiren "appears to be far from full strength" and because of that, Whis slowly begins to realize that Jiren may be the mortal who surpassed his own GoD.

Everything points towards Jiren being the strongest threat because of the unknown power he possess. I don't recall Whis and Beerus ever being concerned of Merged Zamasu but they have the right to be concerned about Jiren given that Beerus' own existence as well as their own universe would be doomed if Jiren wins. And that would also poorly reflect on Whis.

But assuming this was the case, do you honestly think Jiren needs power beyond Vegetto Blue to push back Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku's Genkidama? There's no way Goku would be capable of exhibiting power anywhere close to Vegetto Blue.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. If anything Jiren showing power far superior to anyone else’s while suppressed is a even better way to hype it. Anat is the only one to actually reference the fact Jiren is suppressed, while Kaioshin and Beerus are specifically talking about Jiren’s power right now.

Jiren was initially trying to pus the Genki-Dama back with a glare alone. He wanted to use the least amount of visible effort possible, so he ended up showing more power in order to do that. I don’t see any issue with the Genki-Dama being that strong either, it is a pretty strong technique.

What do you make of Vegeta’s comment in episode 122?
SupremeKai25 wrote: Beerus literally said that he only cared about Zamasu as far as his timeline was concerned. When Present Zamasu was destroyed and the timeline was safe from him, Beerus literally said that his job was done and that the Zamasu of other timelines did not concern him. Why would he comment or care about Fused Zamasu, who wasn't in the Present timeline in the first place? Unlike Fused Zamasu, who did not threaten the Present timeline at the time, Jiren directly threatened Beerus and his universe.

You're comparing Beerus commenting about a dude who is literally powering up in front of him to Beerus ignoring someone who is in another timeline entirely. False equivalency.

Besides, when Zamasu became Infinite and took over the Future, Beerus and Whis did notice him. Beerus explicitly noted that what Zamasu did was having repercussions on other timelines and he was visibly worried, while Whis said that he was getting an uneasy feeling from Infinite Zamasu's energy.

If anything, it should be noted that Whis mentioned the above about Zamasu, while he never got any uneasy feeling from Jiren. The mere sensation of Infinite Zamasu's energy made Whis' skin tingle in frustration, whereas Jiren's energy never produced such an effect on him.

Anyway, you are also wrong when you say that Zamasu was never compared to a Hakaishin. Because Shin and Gowasu said that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu was beyond their comprehension (they would know about the Destroyers and what they're capable of, since they're co-workers) and Vegeta said that he never felt anything like Fused Zamasu, he was unlike any mortal or God he ever faced. And he fought with Beerus and sparred with Whis.
As you just pointed out, Infinite Zamasu did start leaking into U7’s space-time, so Beerus and Whis caught up on his power and had reason to care. Yet neither is really worried and Whis just comments on being uncomfortable because of how Zamasu’s Ki feels while Beerus maintain his composure.

Whis explicitly says Zamasu’s Ki is “unpleasant”, he’s not talking about power here. Gowasu spends some time talking about how Zamasu’s emotions were affecting him, and characters in the series can identify when a Ki feels good or evil. Jiren is not evil or emotionally unstable, so there’s no reason his Ki would feel unpleasant.

That’s not a comparison to a Hakaishin though. Are you saying Kaioshin wouldn’t consider Beerus’ power beyond his understanding? Because that’s just a line to say someone is absurdly strong, not a line that indicates he’s never sensed someone this strong before.

Sparring with someone doesn’t mean you’ve sensed their power, at best Vegeta has a clue of their full powers. Otherwise that’d mean Jiren > Whis when Vegeta says he’s the strongest Ki he’s ever felt.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 06, 2022 1:42 pm

Re: Broly scan:

It states that he fights evenly with Gogeta after awakening SSFP, which is technically true for a brief moment. It's not until Gogeta goes Blue that the tables are turned again.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 06, 2022 10:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 1:32 pm
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. If anything Jiren showing power far superior to anyone else’s while suppressed is a even better way to hype it. Anat is the only one to actually reference the fact Jiren is suppressed, while Kaioshin and Beerus are specifically talking about Jiren’s power right now.

Jiren was initially trying to pus the Genki-Dama back with a glare alone. He wanted to use the least amount of visible effort possible, so he ended up showing more power in order to do that. I don’t see any issue with the Genki-Dama being that strong either, it is a pretty strong technique.

What do you make of Vegeta’s comment in episode 122?
Sure, but Kaioshin and Whis' statement are meant to be taken together. Whis follows up on Kaioshin's statement by suggesting that his power surpasses a God of Destruction. Aside from that, Anato was capable of sensing greater power from Jiren so nothing stops Kaioshin from referring to Jiren's unseen power despite describing what he feels. Everything points towards the audience recognizing that Jiren was far from full power. Beerus isn't even shocked when Whis states that Goku was at full strength whereas Jiren was far from it. If Suppressed Jiren was really that powerful, then that would mean that Kefla had already displayed power beyond a GoD. That doesn't really make sense since only Jiren's power is established to be beyond a GoD's.

I concede here. I forgot that Trunks' Spirit Sword actually allowed him to beat Merged Zamasu.

Vegeta's comment about Jiren? That Jiren's power far exceeded the power of anyone he's battled which includes Merged Zamasu, Kefla, and UI Omen Goku. It's during this battle that I feel Vegeta and Goku's power had risen the most because the survival of their universe rides on this battle so their emotions and determination are at their peak which we know allows the Saiyans to evolve beyond their limits.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 06, 2022 11:34 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:23 am Well I ask because some comment came out somewhere recently that if Broly could just remain calm and in control then he could probably have beaten Gogeta.

So if a calm and collected Broly could overcome Gogeta then what about Jiren and Goku?
I would need to see the comment. Not even the novelization mentions this. The only thing that is clarified is that Gogeta Blue was so powerful that Broly eventually lost the will to fight. Even then, I'm not even sure if remaining calm would benefit Broly at all. Jiren and Vegeta benefited more from allowing their emotions to overtake them rather than suppressing their emotions like Goku did for Ultra Instinct. Broly's power continued to rise because of his rage so because of his Saiyan physiology, I don't think remaining calm would have made a difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 06, 2022 11:55 pm

Shin's statement is quite straightforward to me, "this power feels different(...) he's just plain strong".
He says KONO CHIKARA WA, THIS POWER. He's not talking about the potential extent of it, but what's going on right now, the power he is feeling right then and there. Not what might happen later with that power.

I really cannot see "THIS POWER bla bla" not meaning THIS POWER RIGHT HERE, and be about Jiren's unseen power.

It's odd to me how everybody suddenly can, somehow, become god tier, but a Suppressed Jiren cannot be already that powerful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 07, 2022 12:27 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:55 pm Shin's statement is quite straightforward to me, "this power feels different(...) he's just plain strong".
He says KONO CHIKARA WA, THIS POWER. He's not talking about the potential extent of it, but what's going on right now, the power he is feeling right then and there. Not what might happen later with that power.

I really cannot see "THIS POWER bla bla" not meaning THIS POWER RIGHT HERE, and be about Jiren's unseen power.

It's odd to me how everybody suddenly can, somehow, become god tier, but a Suppressed Jiren cannot be already that powerful.
I understand what you are saying but Kaioshin's statement is meant to follow up on Whis and confirm what the audience is telling us. Jiren is holding back and is the strongest fighter they've ever encountered. That's the only thing the narrative is telling us. It's not establishing Jiren (110) as being the strongest power period and one that surpasses the GoDs. That has ramifications on the story including Hit fighting back Jiren (110) or Kefla possessing power that surpasses that.

I don't really take an issue with Suppressed Jiren being that powerful if it weren't for the fact that Suppressed Jiren's power was superseded so easily.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 07, 2022 1:39 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 9:23 am Anyway, you are also wrong when you say that Zamasu was never compared to a Hakaishin. Because Shin and Gowasu said that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu was beyond their comprehension (they would know about the Destroyers and what they're capable of, since they're co-workers) and Vegeta said that he never felt anything like Fused Zamasu, he was unlike any mortal or God he ever faced. And he fought with Beerus and sparred with Whis.

So as you can see, there's plenty of material with which to hype Fused Zamasu and Vegito by extension.
Oh wow, I had completely forgotten Vegeta's line about Fused Zamasu in episode 65.

That line puts Fused Zamasu with his Halo form directly over Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku from the U6 tournament. This also implies (Along with other stuff I said in the past) that Goku used more than Kaioken x2 in the next episode since Goku would need to had increased his strength over 5 times in between arcs for Kaioken x2 to work against Zamasu and that's very unlikely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am

Perhaps we should also ask ourselves the implications of saying that Suppressed Jiren and Initial UI Goku are > Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito.

Because if you are saying this, then you are also saying that Kefla is way stronger than Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito, since she was able to seriously threaten a stronger version of Ultra Instinct Goku, who was adapting more to Ultra Instinct compared to when he first used it.

Except... that Kefla is only a Super Saiyan 2, while Vegito is Super Saiyan Blue and Fused Zamasu is in Super Saiyan Rosé, both forms are so exponentially greater than SS2 that it's not even funny. And there's also the fact that even just Goku and Black individually could solo Kale and Caulifla (Goku did it in Super Saiyan God after all). So logically Kefla should be fodder to both Fused Zamasu and Vegito.

So how are you going to reconcile the idea that Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed in ep. 109-110, with the fact that Kefla was a serious threat to a stronger version of Ultra Instinct?

Not just that, but Kefla was apparently so powerful, that she even forced Jiren to awaken from his meditation. She was worthy of Jiren's attention.

If a fusion of two fodders (again, Kale and Caulifla were solo'd by SSG Goku) whose strongest form is SS2 was able to get the attention of Jiren, do you really think that Fused Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed so quickly in the ToP arc?
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 1:32 pm As you just pointed out, Infinite Zamasu did start leaking into U7’s space-time, so Beerus and Whis caught up on his power and had reason to care.
Then you concede that your argument that Jiren > Fused Zamasu because Beerus talked about him is wrong, since Beerus had no concrete reason to care about a threat centralized in another timeline?
Yet neither is really worried
Beerus certainly didn't have the usual bratty and carefree expression he normally has, even his tone of voice was different, more serious and mature. Infinite Zamasu made him drop his usual smug quickly.
and Whis just comments on being uncomfortable because of how Zamasu’s Ki feels while Beerus maintain his composure.
Considering what Whis is capable of and who he is, the mere fact of making him uncomfortable is a feat in itself.
Whis explicitly says Zamasu’s Ki is “unpleasant”, he’s not talking about power here.
I mean, sure, but then Shin never said Jiren is "stronger" than Zamasu either. He simply said that he feels "different" than Zamasu and every other threat faced before. Which doesn't necessarily makes him stronger. It's just that no two beings have the exact same aura, even Zamasu and Black, despite being counterparts, still had a slightly different aura.

So if you're going to use that argument then I'm just going to say that Shin's statement is not conclusive evidence that Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu.
Jiren is not evil or emotionally unstable, so there’s no reason his Ki would feel unpleasant.
Nah, the dude is not right in the head. Remember that he tried to kill innocent bystanders just because he got salty at Goku humiliating him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhNiK9ia3Vw&t


The guy was clearly mentally insane before he got a therapy session with Goku, he was just hiding it.

That’s not a comparison to a Hakaishin though. Are you saying Kaioshin wouldn’t consider Beerus’ power beyond his understanding? Because that’s just a line to say someone is absurdly strong, not a line that indicates he’s never sensed someone this strong before.
But that's exactly what it indicates.

Shin explicitly notes that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu is beyond his understanding.

Vegeta notes that he has never sensed energy like that, and he even made the explicit distinction between Gods and mortals, to reference that time he fought a God of Destruction. He still said that he never felt "anyone" unleash energy like Fused Zamasu.

You can draw the conclusions you want from this, I'm just telling you that, if we're going off of statements, then Fused Zamasu has plenty of statements that place him at a level at least relative to that of a Destroyer.
Sparring with someone doesn’t mean you’ve sensed their power, at best Vegeta has a clue of their full powers. Otherwise that’d mean Jiren > Whis when Vegeta says he’s the strongest Ki he’s ever felt.
Sure, but he also fought seriously against Beerus (My Bulma scene) and spectated the fight between Beerus and Goku.

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:39 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 9:23 am Anyway, you are also wrong when you say that Zamasu was never compared to a Hakaishin. Because Shin and Gowasu said that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu was beyond their comprehension (they would know about the Destroyers and what they're capable of, since they're co-workers) and Vegeta said that he never felt anything like Fused Zamasu, he was unlike any mortal or God he ever faced. And he fought with Beerus and sparred with Whis.

So as you can see, there's plenty of material with which to hype Fused Zamasu and Vegito by extension.
Oh wow, I had completely forgotten Vegeta's line about Fused Zamasu in episode 65.

That line puts Fused Zamasu with his Halo form directly over Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 Goku from the U6 tournament. This also implies (Along with other stuff I said in the past) that Goku used more than Kaioken x2 in the next episode since Goku would need to had increased his strength over 5 times in between arcs for Kaioken x2 to work against Zamasu and that's very unlikely.
Indeed, but that's a given. We know that Goku Black was already stronger than Kaioken x10 from the U6 Tournament.

In ep. 65, Gowasu said that Goku Black was the "most powerful", specifically using the expression "Saikyō", which denotes the strongest. Gowasu knew of Kaioken x10, because he watched the U6 Tournament on Godtube. Yet he still said that Goku Black was the "strongest/most powerful".

So obviously Fused Zamasu would be much greater than Kaioken x10 Goku and Hit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat May 07, 2022 6:55 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:34 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:23 am Well I ask because some comment came out somewhere recently that if Broly could just remain calm and in control then he could probably have beaten Gogeta.

So if a calm and collected Broly could overcome Gogeta then what about Jiren and Goku?
I would need to see the comment. Not even the novelization mentions this. The only thing that is clarified is that Gogeta Blue was so powerful that Broly eventually lost the will to fight. Even then, I'm not even sure if remaining calm would benefit Broly at all. Jiren and Vegeta benefited more from allowing their emotions to overtake them rather than suppressing their emotions like Goku did for Ultra Instinct. Broly's power continued to rise because of his rage so because of his Saiyan physiology, I don't think remaining calm would have made a difference.
Mentioned here in the power section.

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Broly_(DBS)

With this source but it's in Japanese.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRsMBr7XEAE ... ame=medium

I did see it translated somewhere but can't remember where.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 07, 2022 9:29 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am If a fusion of two fodders (again, Kale and Caulifla were solo'd by SSG Goku) whose strongest form is SS2 was able to get the attention of Jiren, do you really think that Fused Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed so quickly in the ToP arc?
I think Goku probably matched Vegetto Blue’s power when he combined kaioken and spirit bomb with Super Saiyan Blue, so Jiren being a notch above that combo is in line with the implications brought up by Kaioshin and Whis.

I don’t see any problem with Kefla being stronger than Vegetto, since Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in her berserker form. If Kale were weaker than Toppo, who was as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, Jiren wouldn’t approach her directly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 07, 2022 10:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:29 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am If a fusion of two fodders (again, Kale and Caulifla were solo'd by SSG Goku) whose strongest form is SS2 was able to get the attention of Jiren, do you really think that Fused Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed so quickly in the ToP arc?
I think Goku probably matched Vegetto Blue’s power when he combined kaioken and spirit bomb with Super Saiyan Blue, so Jiren being a notch above that combo is in line with the implications brought up by Kaioshin and Whis.

I don’t see any problem with Kefla being stronger than Vegetto, since Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in her berserker form. If Kale were weaker than Toppo, who was as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, Jiren wouldn’t approach her directly.
Kaioken and SSB are fodder to Vegito, we already know this because Gowasu said that, to harm the empowered Fused Zamasu, they would need power far greater than the Kaioken SSB move that Goku just pulled. So the fact that Goku combined Kaioken and SSB is irrelevant. What you are saying is that the energy of the U7 team minus Vegeta is enough to match the boost given by the Potara fusion.

Kale is stronger than the guy who was fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Kefla until he was taken out by a cheap surprise attack?

In fact, we know that SS Kefla = U7 Spirit Bomb, it is stated that her power rivalled the Spirit Bomb and it's what allowed Goku to tap into Ui again. We also see that SS Kefla was very clearly pressured and unable to easily beat SSB Goku without resorting to a cheap surprise attack; while it's stated that Corrupted Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito are in an entirely different level altogether compared to Kaioken SSB, due to Gowasu saying that they'll need an even greater power [than Kaioken SSB] to harm the empowered Zamasu.

So Goku using SSB and Kaioken in conjunction with U7 Spirit Bomb (equal to SS Kefla who couldn't simply stomp SSB Goku) allows him to rival Fused Zamasu and Vegito because...?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat May 07, 2022 10:30 am

Helpful reminder that Kefla was likened to the U7 Spirit Bomb AFTER defeating Goku. It's entirely likely she could be a) Testing herself against Goku, and b) Still getting the hang of her new power and slowly getting stronger.

Cheap shot or not, Kefla dropping Goku to unconsciousness with one attack landed is in line with her supposed power - Goku wasn't off-guard at that time, like in RoF, - heck, he was even in the kaioken state - he just couldn't soak the damage.

But I too agree that Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu are indeed stronger than that. Hell, I believe Vegito's Super Saiyan is comparable to SS Kefla and the U7 Spirit Bomb. His blue form, then? Enough to make Jiren fight more seriously - but not enough to elicit his full power, though. Merged Zamasu is somewhere below that, perhaps in the GoD Toppo-SS2 Kefla range, IMO.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 07, 2022 11:01 am

Thani wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:30 am Helpful reminder that Kefla was likened to the U7 Spirit Bomb AFTER defeating Goku. It's entirely likely she could be a) Testing herself against Goku, and b) Still getting the hang of her new power and slowly getting stronger.

Cheap shot or not, Kefla dropping Goku to unconsciousness with one attack landed is in line with her supposed power - Goku wasn't off-guard at that time, like in RoF, - heck, he was even in the kaioken state - he just couldn't soak the damage.
She didn't really make him unconscious, since he was back up like 2 seconds after. By comparison, Fused Zamasu pressured Goku so much that he broke his arms and legs, he literally couldn't even move his body until he ate a Senzu bean.

Her hype is not impressive. She was likened to a Spirit Bomb consisting of the energies of Gohan, Frieza, and 17. The rest of the U7 team is so fodder that it's not even worth mentioning. I frankly don't think that's impressive hype at all and absolutely doesn't put her anywhere near Corrupted Fused Zamasu and Vegito, who should be way stronger than those 3.

And yet she was still able to pressure Ultra Instinct Goku and even awaken Jiren from his meditation, despite the weak hype she has, so I have no doubt that Fused Zamasu and Vegito remain relevant for 99% of the arc. The idea that they get surpassed in ep. 109-110 conflicts too much with what Kefla is able to accomplish against Ultra Instinct Goku.
Merged Zamasu is somewhere below that, perhaps in the GoD Toppo-SS2 Kefla range, IMO.
Toppo was defeated by SSBE Vegeta who, by narrative, was always portrayed as the counterpart to SSB Kaioken Goku. We know that Corrupted Fused Zamasu is way beyond the level of Kaioken (from the aforementioned Gowasu statement), so he stomps Toppo, who lost to a form that is comparable to SSB Kaioken.

For reasons already said above (how he is in a far stronger form and how his fusées are much stronger), Fused Zamasu would also logically stomp Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 07, 2022 11:07 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:29 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am If a fusion of two fodders (again, Kale and Caulifla were solo'd by SSG Goku) whose strongest form is SS2 was able to get the attention of Jiren, do you really think that Fused Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed so quickly in the ToP arc?
I think Goku probably matched Vegetto Blue’s power when he combined kaioken and spirit bomb with Super Saiyan Blue, so Jiren being a notch above that combo is in line with the implications brought up by Kaioshin and Whis.

I don’t see any problem with Kefla being stronger than Vegetto, since Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in her berserker form. If Kale were weaker than Toppo, who was as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, Jiren wouldn’t approach her directly.
That's an impossibility. We see base Gogeta being Blue level in Broly so base Vegetto is also Blue level in the Zamasu arc. At best Goku in episode 109/110 is a match to SS Vegetto.

How is Kale stronger than Goku or Vegeta? She was defeated by a tired SSG Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat May 07, 2022 12:40 pm

I have no problem with Kefla being that strong. She's made of U6 Broly and U6's Goku and whatever the boost that might come from two oneesan/potential lovers.

In fact, that makes more sense than all those weaklings considered to be god tier or high end Z tier based on one or two outlier scenes or some sparring session with Goku, with no merit whatsoever, yet there are still plenty of takes like "DBS Oolong oneshots GT".
Besides, Zamasu was not stronger than Vegito, whose full power weakened Zamasu enough for fucking Trunks to beat him, so Sup. Jiren can fit between Zamasu and the saiyafusions at their full power.

Besides, what does make sense in the anime? lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 07, 2022 1:10 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:07 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:29 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am If a fusion of two fodders (again, Kale and Caulifla were solo'd by SSG Goku) whose strongest form is SS2 was able to get the attention of Jiren, do you really think that Fused Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed so quickly in the ToP arc?
I think Goku probably matched Vegetto Blue’s power when he combined kaioken and spirit bomb with Super Saiyan Blue, so Jiren being a notch above that combo is in line with the implications brought up by Kaioshin and Whis.

I don’t see any problem with Kefla being stronger than Vegetto, since Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in her berserker form. If Kale were weaker than Toppo, who was as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, Jiren wouldn’t approach her directly.
That's an impossibility. We see base Gogeta being Blue level in Broly so base Vegetto is also Blue level in the Zamasu arc. At best Goku in episode 109/110 is a match to SS Vegetto.

How is Kale stronger than Goku or Vegeta? She was defeated by a tired SSG Goku.
Not just that, but she was defeated while being helped in battle by SS2 Caulifla. They ganged up on Goku and they were still trashed and almost eliminated.

Meanwhile Goku Black was single-handedly humiliating SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Frankly, even Goku Black would be enough to give Kefla a good fight (before she goes SS2 of course), like SSB Goku did. Fused Zamasu is a murder stomp.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 07, 2022 1:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am Indeed, but that's a given. We know that Goku Black was already stronger than Kaioken x10 from the U6 Tournament.

In ep. 65, Gowasu said that Goku Black was the "most powerful", specifically using the expression "Saikyō", which denotes the strongest. Gowasu knew of Kaioken x10, because he watched the U6 Tournament on Godtube. Yet he still said that Goku Black was the "strongest/most powerful".

So obviously Fused Zamasu would be much greater than Kaioken x10 Goku and Hit.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. While Gowasu did see a video of the fight, he wasn't there so he didn't sense it.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:10 pm Not just that, but she was defeated while being helped in battle by SS2 Caulifla. They ganged up on Goku and they were still trashed and almost eliminated.

Meanwhile Goku Black was single-handedly humiliating SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Frankly, even Goku Black would be enough to give Kefla a good fight (before she goes SS2 of course), like SSB Goku did. Fused Zamasu is a murder stomp.
That last part I don't agree with. Whis's comment about SS Kefla rivaling the U7 Genkidama clearly tells us that the only reason SSB Goku managed to survive a fight with her is because she was holding back. You can even see her disappointed look when she knocks Goku out.

I guess Black can adapt and use his clones to beat her eventually but in raw power he loses badly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat May 07, 2022 1:57 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:45 pm I wouldn't be so sure about that. While Gowasu did see the fight, he wasn't there so he didn't sense it.
Zamasu sensed that Goku had God ki through the screen, that's when he realized that Goku was using the power of the Gods... unless it's an acknowledged in-universe fact that God aura looks different from normal aura (so like a character noting that God aura looks different from normal aura), and not just a meta animation argument, then the only explanation is that they indeed sensed Goku's energy through the screen.
That last part I don't agree with. Whis's comment about SS Kefla rivaling the U7 Genkidama clearly tells us that the only reason SSB Goku managed to survive a fight with her is because she was holding back. You can even see her disappointed look when she knocks Goku out.

I guess Black can adapt and use his clones to beat her eventually but in raw power he loses badly.
We could make that same argument for Black. He was purposefully holding back and doing nothing because he wanted Goku and Vegeta to get stronger by having their loved ones killed. And even while doing nothing, he was still strong enough that mere clones of him were ass kicking the two saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 07, 2022 2:12 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:12 pm Sure, but Kaioshin and Whis' statement are meant to be taken together. Whis follows up on Kaioshin's statement by suggesting that his power surpasses a God of Destruction. Aside from that, Anato was capable of sensing greater power from Jiren so nothing stops Kaioshin from referring to Jiren's unseen power despite describing what he feels. Everything points towards the audience recognizing that Jiren was far from full power. Beerus isn't even shocked when Whis states that Goku was at full strength whereas Jiren was far from it. If Suppressed Jiren was really that powerful, then that would mean that Kefla had already displayed power beyond a GoD. That doesn't really make sense since only Jiren's power is established to be beyond a GoD's.

I concede here. I forgot that Trunks' Spirit Sword actually allowed him to beat Merged Zamasu.

Vegeta's comment about Jiren? That Jiren's power far exceeded the power of anyone he's battled which includes Merged Zamasu, Kefla, and UI Omen Goku. It's during this battle that I feel Vegeta and Goku's power had risen the most because the survival of their universe rides on this battle so their emotions and determination are at their peak which we know allows the Saiyans to evolve beyond their limits.
As Koitsukai said, I have no doubt Kaioshin is talking about Jiren's current power. He's seeing Jiren pushing the Genki-Dama back and reacting to it. Whether Jiren has more power or not is irrelevant because he's currently showing this amazing power.

Whis' line is a bit more than that - he chimes in to say Jiren's power like a God of Destruction, and that he is the one who reached, and perhaps surpassed, them. He firstly completes Kaioshin's line and says the current power is reaching that level, and then as a callback to Anat's line he says Jiren's full power should be on the top, if not above that tier.

There's an issue though. We don't see Jiren power up, that could be the very same Jiren Goku fought that Vegeta is talking about.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:55 pm Shin's statement is quite straightforward to me, "this power feels different(...) he's just plain strong".
He says KONO CHIKARA WA, THIS POWER. He's not talking about the potential extent of it, but what's going on right now, the power he is feeling right then and there. Not what might happen later with that power.

I really cannot see "THIS POWER bla bla" not meaning THIS POWER RIGHT HERE, and be about Jiren's unseen power.

It's odd to me how everybody suddenly can, somehow, become god tier, but a Suppressed Jiren cannot be already that powerful.
This. Cut and dry. I think this is probably the most straightforward to say "This is the strongest Ki I've ever felt" without using those exact words.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:30 am Then you concede that your argument that Jiren > Fused Zamasu because Beerus talked about him is wrong, since Beerus had no concrete reason to care about a threat centralized in another timeline?
Zamasu was literally consuming their universe.
Beerus certainly didn't have the usual bratty and carefree expression he normally has, even his tone of voice was different, more serious and mature. Infinite Zamasu made him drop his usual smug quickly.
I can see your point, but there are moments when Beerus isn't joking around all the time. He was pretty no-nonsense when he was dealing with Present Zamasu, and I think these are comparable situations: Both Present and Infinite Zamasu were guys whose power wasn't much of a threat, but the situation could snowball and go out of control and Beerus was pretty serious about it.

From what we've seen in the series, Beerus pretty much put ups a show when he feels threatened. Just look at how he screams his head off whenever someone brings Zeno's name. Granted those are more comical series, but in moments like whenever U7 was threatened in the ToP (Specially when it was believed Jiren defeated Goku) he was genuinely afraid and sweating.
Considering what Whis is capable of and who he is, the mere fact of making him uncomfortable is a feat in itself.
Not really. Kuririn says Vegeta and Nappa have "demonic Ki", but that's not a measure of their power since he was surprised his Scattering Bullet didn't do anything to them.
Whis explicitly says Zamasu’s Ki is “unpleasant”, he’s not talking about power here.
I mean, sure, but then Shin never said Jiren is "stronger" than Zamasu either. He simply said that he feels "different" than Zamasu and every other threat faced before. Which doesn't necessarily makes him stronger. It's just that no two beings have the exact same aura, even Zamasu and Black, despite being counterparts, still had a slightly different aura.

So if you're going to use that argument then I'm just going to say that Shin's statement is not conclusive evidence that Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu.
I agree, sort of. People have been interpreting Shin's line in different ways, but I just can't see it any other way. Jiren's Ki feels different from Zamasu's because it's huge, and it's not super evil or demonic and his body falling apart from his own power. He's "strong, plain and simple" is as straighforward as it gets.
Nah, the dude is not right in the head. Remember that he tried to kill innocent bystanders just because he got salty at Goku humiliating him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhNiK9ia3Vw&t


The guy was clearly mentally insane before he got a therapy session with Goku, he was just hiding it.
Sure, Jiren has some trust issues, but he's nowhere near as evil and megalomaniacal as Zamasu. Jiren is a bit of a jerk, Zamasu is genuinely creepy.

But that's exactly what it indicates.

Shin explicitly notes that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu is beyond his understanding.

Vegeta notes that he has never sensed energy like that, and he even made the explicit distinction between Gods and mortals, to reference that time he fought a God of Destruction. He still said that he never felt "anyone" unleash energy like Fused Zamasu.

You can draw the conclusions you want from this, I'm just telling you that, if we're going off of statements, then Fused Zamasu has plenty of statements that place him at a level at least relative to that of a Destroyer.

Sure, but he also fought seriously against Beerus (My Bulma scene) and spectated the fight between Beerus and Goku.
I have no doubt Merged Zamasu is scratching on the lower end of Hakaishin tier, but Whis explicitly puts him on that tier too and Shin's line places him even above others. I don't really think Suppressed Jiren is that much above Vegetto or Merged Zamasu, after all.

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:39 am Indeed, but that's a given. We know that Goku Black was already stronger than Kaioken x10 from the U6 Tournament.

In ep. 65, Gowasu said that Goku Black was the "most powerful", specifically using the expression "Saikyō", which denotes the strongest. Gowasu knew of Kaioken x10, because he watched the U6 Tournament on Godtube. Yet he still said that Goku Black was the "strongest/most powerful".

So obviously Fused Zamasu would be much greater than Kaioken x10 Goku and Hit.
Plus a producer of the show has been quoted as saying Goku Black is the strongest fighter in a Episode 65 promo after Beerus.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:29 am I don’t see any problem with Kefla being stronger than Vegetto, since Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in her berserker form. If Kale were weaker than Toppo, who was as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, Jiren wouldn’t approach her directly.
I think Toppo stepped in because Kale had knocked away one of his troopers and made it personal. Just like when he jumped in to save Dyspo from Maji Kayo, who even with his goo abilities clearly isn't beyond SSJB level. Goku is also below Toppo going by the Exhibition Match, maybe his equal at best, and Jiren still approached him too.

I think the only implication in the scene is that Kale was the strongest power in the tournament up to that point, but only because the God tier characters hadn't shown their powers yet.
Thani wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:30 am Helpful reminder that Kefla was likened to the U7 Spirit Bomb AFTER defeating Goku. It's entirely likely she could be a) Testing herself against Goku, and b) Still getting the hang of her new power and slowly getting stronger.

Cheap shot or not, Kefla dropping Goku to unconsciousness with one attack landed is in line with her supposed power - Goku wasn't off-guard at that time, like in RoF, - heck, he was even in the kaioken state - he just couldn't soak the damage.

But I too agree that Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu are indeed stronger than that. Hell, I believe Vegito's Super Saiyan is comparable to SS Kefla and the U7 Spirit Bomb. His blue form, then? Enough to make Jiren fight more seriously - but not enough to elicit his full power, though. Merged Zamasu is somewhere below that, perhaps in the GoD Toppo-SS2 Kefla range, IMO.
So Kefla only unleashed power comparable to the Genki-Dama when finishing Goku? I can see it.

But to be fair, Goku was already pretty worn out and pushing himself beyond his limits too. Every fight is going to end with a single attack when the loser is weakened enough.
Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:40 pm I have no problem with Kefla being that strong. She's made of U6 Broly and U6's Goku and whatever the boost that might come from two oneesan/potential lovers.

In fact, that makes more sense than all those weaklings considered to be god tier or high end Z tier based on one or two outlier scenes or some sparring session with Goku, with no merit whatsoever, yet there are still plenty of takes like "DBS Oolong oneshots GT".
Besides, Zamasu was not stronger than Vegito, whose full power weakened Zamasu enough for fucking Trunks to beat him, so Sup. Jiren can fit between Zamasu and the saiyafusions at their full power.

Besides, what does make sense in the anime? lol
I agree. Plus Kefla used Kale's LSSJ form and Goku was pushing her to go beyond her limits. She can easily get up to SSJ3 Vegetto level with that alone, which is more or less where I have her as a SSJ1.

I'd say Vegetto and Zamasu were more or less equal. They were clashing evenly until Zamasu started to weaken.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:10 pm Frankly, even Goku Black would be enough to give Kefla a good fight (before she goes SS2 of course), like SSB Goku did. Fused Zamasu is a murder stomp.
I think that's a bit too much. Goku and Vegeta were pushing back Initial Merged Zamasu, Goku Black should be SSJG level to them by the ToP. I'd say Kefla is around SSJB Goku and would annihilate Black, and SSJ1 Kefla is between Halo and Mutated Zamasu.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:45 pm That last part I don't agree with. Whis's comment about SS Kefla rivaling the U7 Genkidama clearly tells us that the only reason SSB Goku managed to survive a fight with her is because she was holding back. You can even see her disappointed look when she knocks Goku out.
To be fair, Whis also said she and Goku were pushing each other. Kefla had the upperhand, but Goku wasn't far behind and probably would've caught up if he weren't so fatigued.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 07, 2022 2:24 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:12 pm
As Koitsukai said, I have no doubt Kaioshin is talking about Jiren's current power. He's seeing Jiren pushing the Genki-Dama back and reacting to it. Whether Jiren has more power or not is irrelevant because he's currently showing this amazing power.

Whis' line is a bit more than that - he chimes in to say Jiren's power like a God of Destruction, and that he is the one who reached, and perhaps surpassed, them. He firstly completes Kaioshin's line and says the current power is reaching that level, and then as a callback to Anat's line he says Jiren's full power should be on the top, if not above that tier.

There's an issue though. We don't see Jiren power up, that could be the very same Jiren Goku fought that Vegeta is talking about.
I don't think we'll agree here. Kefla and God Toppo's power aren't reaching the level of a God of Destruction. That's not what the narrative suggests and nothing that is being argued here will convince me because it's absolutely contradictory to the narrative. SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta started reaching Jiren's level by breaking their limits, multiplied their power by 20-fold, and still was not near the level of a GoD.

The way Vegeta describes Jiren's power as of episode 122 is completely different to how he reacted to Jiren as of episode 110. Regardless, both SSJ2 Kefla and UI Omen Goku (116) already far surpassed Jiren (110) especially when factoring in UI Omen Goku's Kamehameha or SSJ2 Kefla's strongest attack so Jiren logically did power up.

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