Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:47 pm

I just want to say that I disagree that every character got drastically stronger due to RoF. I just accept that as a retcon and that Goku no longer has a base form at the level of SSG in the following arcs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:56 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:54 am RoF itself is a can of worms that, power-wise, doesn't fit in with neither the manga nor the anime. Funnily enough, it does fit with the movies, since Final Form Freeza also took a brutal beating from SS Broly and was still holding himself well enough to not only go Golden but still last an entire hour against Broly.

Otherwise I just consider RoF an outlier. They used the concept of "Saiyan Beyond God" in the movie (and in the anime, in some lesser arcs), but disregarded it in the major arcs (U6, Future Trunks and Universe Survival, Galactic Prisoner and Granolah the Survivor in the manga) so as to not make the power creep too bizarre.

It is required, too, since if anybody and their mothers could reach a level of power capable of challenging Beerus (i.e. BoG's SSG Goku level), more people would take note of it in-universe.
Can I ask how exactly does it not fit with the anime? Because the only thing I can think of is "Character X can be this strong because I don't like it".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:10 pm

Considering that Goku in base and SSJ fought evenly with Gohan on the farm prior to the latter regaining his Boo arc strength, it's obvious to see that the current narrative doesn't have "God level Base Goku". That never existed in the anime. Goku was always arbitrarily strong in base but not God level. The closest concept to this is Goku retaining SSJG level power in SSJ during BOG but that was due to God's flame still burning. He didn't have any power beyond SSJ vs Beerus despite having 2 more transformations since God essence SSJ is a premature Blue. Goku only surpasses his SSJG self from BOG with Blue later on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:17 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:10 pm Considering that Goku in base and SSJ fought evenly with Gohan on the farm prior to the latter regaining his Boo arc strength, it's obvious to see that the current narrative doesn't have "God level Base Goku". That never existed in the anime. Goku was always arbitrarily strong in base but not God level. The closest concept to this is Goku retaining SSJG level power in SSJ during BOG but that was due to God's flame still burning. He didn't have any power beyond SSJ vs Beerus despite having 2 more transformations since God essence SSJ is a premature Blue. Goku only surpasses his SSJG self from BOG with Blue later on.
That's just a sparring match. Goku never fights seriously with Gohan until he asks him to in episode 90.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:03 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:17 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:10 pm Considering that Goku in base and SSJ fought evenly with Gohan on the farm prior to the latter regaining his Boo arc strength, it's obvious to see that the current narrative doesn't have "God level Base Goku". That never existed in the anime. Goku was always arbitrarily strong in base but not God level. The closest concept to this is Goku retaining SSJG level power in SSJ during BOG but that was due to God's flame still burning. He didn't have any power beyond SSJ vs Beerus despite having 2 more transformations since God essence SSJ is a premature Blue. Goku only surpasses his SSJG self from BOG with Blue later on.
That's just a sparring match. Goku never fights seriously with Gohan until he asks him to in episode 90.
That doesn't take away from the fact that Goku needs transformations to match Gohan. SSJ2/3 Goku vs Future Trunks was also called practice. And fighting seriously in context just means fighting using large amounts of power until someone can't fight anymore. Gohan and Goku's serious fight was above Base/SSJ level unlike their previous encounter and it didn't stop until one of them was knocked out. A spar doesn't go that far, doesn't mean that the powers somehow aren't what they're shown to be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:00 am Pan was born in May 779 so the fight against Freeza took place towards the end of that year then the Champa arc a few days/weeks later. That would be some impressive gains for Piccolo who couldn't surpass any SSJ Gohan in the 12 years since the Cell Games but is able to do it a few days or weeks between RoF and Champa.
Right, but it's what Super just showed us. Seeing Frieza get so strong motivated him, I guess 🤷‍♂️
Does anything imply SSJ Gohan in Super Hero is that much stronger than he was during the Cell Games?
The fact that the Buu saga exists and Gohan got much stronger there even prior to the Elder Kai ritual. No reason to scale him back to the Cell arc, otherwise what's to stop us from scaling him to the early android or Frieza arc?
Even the anime didn't know when to use it, to me it was just a temporary boost that wore off by the time the arcs landed. At least the out-of-universe concept of it did.
Which I wouldn't mind if the story presented this but it doesn't. On it's face, everyone involved in the U6 tournament (except Monaka) is stronger than SSJ Gohan. That is what the story is deliberately telling us. Everything else needs out of universe explanations related to the production. If Piccolo wasn't there pressuring Frost to cheat, I don't think people would have much of an issue with that arcs scaling following RoF, outside of nobodies being kinda up there with the U7 titans.

Because RoF isn't present in the manga, I choose to use the only versions of it we have to determine the events of the arc. Turns out all of them including the one Toyotaro worked on share the detail of base Frieza being stronger than SSJ Gohan. It's fair to ignore it, but I can't since it's the only reference to those events we have which is convenient because the movie continuity doesn't have the U6 tournament to undermine RoF.
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:43 pmThen you have default 7-3 grabbing Piccolo’s neck without him noticing, suggesting Piccolo wasn’t that far off from him.
He most likely wasn't close to Piccolo initially. He teleported behind him the first time using Chaos Cont--er--I mean the Hedgehog alien's teleporting skill. So he used stealth both times.
So, when you have Trunks above Saganbo and default 7-3, and with Piccolo not that far ahead of either one of them, you can conclude Piccolo and Trunks are probably comparable (at the start of Moro arc’s transition).
He's most assuredly well above Kid Trunks by the time of Moro. Along with what I said just above, I think the fact that 7-3 relied on using Piccolo's strength combined with his infinite stamina to defeat Piccolo shows that Piccolo was a decent ways above 7-3. On top of that, that same 7-3 was unable to be one-shot by post-ToP Ultimate Gohan.

Beyond that, we have no frame of reference to 7-3's strength compared to Saganbo. Being genre-savvy, we could assume that Saganbo is ahead due to being Moro's main enforcer, but 7-3 is also holding Moro's backup power so it could also be assumed that Moro powered him up more than Saganbo. Whatever the case, Saganbo got an additional powerup before coming to earth the second time to put him at SSB level.
I think your argument falls apart here because Goku and Freeza were fighting with power similar to that of Super Saiyan God in RoF (Toyotaro ironically is the one that illustrates this better), while against U6 competitors the Saiyans got dialed back down to be slightly stronger than their Boo arc selves. It means Base Goku from RoF is far stronger than SS Goku from Champa arc, and SS Gohan from RoF is probably around rookie SS Cabba and stronger than Frost. Different power structures, different rules. This is a discussion that has been occurring practically every month, everyone commenting on this page has already stated their position, and it’s not necessary to bring them up again.
You're using an out of universe concept, an idea born from a production error but one not told to us by any character or demonstrated in-universe. The story does not signify this in any way and simply continues along without even a wink and a nod. If there is anything, it is extremely subtle, which you say isn't substantial when it comes to Piccolo. However, I don't believe this exists at all in the manga or anime until the story provides that context.

Your idea is essentially fan theory/fan-fiction while the story is telling us what it's telling us. The story, as is outside of movie continuity does not recognize SBG and if it does then it was never lost. Whatever base form Goku used against Frieza continues to exist and he still uses it or it never existed at all.
I just checked the manga and 7-3 doesn’t “tank” Gohan’s attacks. He was completely overwhelmed by them.
I meant he took the attacks without much pause. It didn't deter his offense. I was mostly referring to their first fight, but in both Gohan is unable to one-shot 7-3 which puts him firmly above Frost when using Piccolo or Gohan's power. Default 7-3 is likely weaker than Frost, we agree but he's also weaker than Piccolo. His durability is above theirs for whatever reason maybe due to what he's composed of.
I don’t see the point in using Piccolo feats against 7-3 using copied abilities, since 1. He can’t beat 7-3 with Piccolo’s data, 2. He can’t beat 7-3 with Gohan’s data, and 3. He can’t beat 7-3 using Moro’s data.
I don't believe I did, but if I were to do that, I would mention that 7-3 using Piccolo's offensive strength + techniques and his own infinite stamina and durability could not be instantly defeated by Ultimate Gohan who last we saw him was at Kefla's level. What's more, that same Gohan had to dodge all of 7-3's Piccolo related techniques which were no stronger or weaker than if Piccolo had done them himself at full power. As demonstrated earlier when Piccolo had fought 7-3 with clashing beams, the difference came down to Piccolo's waning stamina. Gohan defeated him easily but not as easily as a Kefla level fighter would defeat a Semi-Cell level fighter.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:04 pm Now, I don't recall anything implying the OG73 we've seen is any different from the rest of the army, aside of his data, so they should all be equally strong in their "base" state.
OG 7-3 did get the Moro amp which I think puts him over them. It's implied that the clones got OG73's data. I can't recall if that included the skills he'd attained or if he permanently acquired Piccolo and Gohan's power like Moro did and passed that on to them. It's all murky, but I've always assumed that OG73 wasn't anything special by default even when he got the Moro amp.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:41 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:01 pmGogeta says Freeza doesn't know about fusion (true, but only for the movie continuity) after the anime had shown his brief interaction with Gotenks (and possibly Kafla, though we don't know how the events of Universe Survival saga unfolded in the movie continuity).

Bulma and Nappa mentioned Vegeta's brother (true, Vegeta has a brother), a character not many Westerners are familiar with.

So I would say we also have examples of confusing dialogues already.

Remembered one more: Bulma's and Mai's ages in Movie 14. Are they true or are they lying about it?
I agree there's some confusing dialogue but I think the author forgetting details or ignore something from a different continuity isn't than intentionally writing a character to be wrong. It rarely happens in fiction so it shouldn't be the first assumption we make when disagreeing with a line of dialogue.
"As you are now" isn't as direct as you think it is. You can take it at face value and assume Beerus means the current Goku, or you can associate such line with a prior scene and assume Beerus means Freeza saga Goku. Beerus uses the verb in present form because that's how Goku presents himself at that moment to Beerus, but he could have said "as you were", and no ambiguity would exist.
That's possible. I'm not arguing base Goku being weaker than Freeza is the only valid interpretation. It's the one I'm fine accepting because it's what Herms thought it from what he translated. Beerus being wrong or us missing the context and he's actually referring to Namek saga Goku are two seperate interpretations. When the same person offers both, it just seems like brainstorming any interpretation to refute that it could be true.
BWri wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pmThe fact that the Buu saga exists and Gohan got much stronger there even prior to the Elder Kai ritual. No reason to scale him back to the Cell arc, otherwise what's to stop us from scaling him to the early android or Frieza arc?
Well he obtained SSJ and mastered it in the Cell saga so that's as far back as we can go :P. I just think Toriyama has a different idea how strong the characters can get compared to what the anime and manga implied. Piccolo seemed to have plateaued after training in the RoSaT and having his potential unlocked might be the first time Toriyama gave him any noticeable power-up since then. Same with Gohan. We just know Gohan was stronger after the Z Sword training but not really any indication that SSJ Gohan was stronger than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. In Super Hero, Toriyama might've had Ultimate Gohan around the same strength as the Buu saga and thought he needed another transformation to get vastly stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:08 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:03 pm That doesn't take away from the fact that Goku needs transformations to match Gohan. SSJ2/3 Goku vs Future Trunks was also called practice. And fighting seriously in context just means fighting using large amounts of power until someone can't fight anymore. Gohan and Goku's serious fight was above Base/SSJ level unlike their previous encounter and it didn't stop until one of them was knocked out. A spar doesn't go that far, doesn't mean that the powers somehow aren't what they're shown to be.
Goku vs Trunks was not sparring. They were fighting seriously since Goku wanted to know how strong Trunks have gotten.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:08 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:03 pm That doesn't take away from the fact that Goku needs transformations to match Gohan. SSJ2/3 Goku vs Future Trunks was also called practice. And fighting seriously in context just means fighting using large amounts of power until someone can't fight anymore. Gohan and Goku's serious fight was above Base/SSJ level unlike their previous encounter and it didn't stop until one of them was knocked out. A spar doesn't go that far, doesn't mean that the powers somehow aren't what they're shown to be.
Goku vs Trunks was not sparring. They were fighting seriously since Goku wanted to know how strong Trunks have gotten.
It was a spar since Goku called it practice. Sparring and assessing someone's strength isn't mutually exclusive. A serious fight is one man left standing. Neither Goku's spar with Gohan or Trunks fits that criteria. Doesn't mean that the powers being shown weren't genuine. Goku transformed against both Gohan and Trunks because he can't handle them without transformations.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:49 pm

Important thing to remember: performance =/= power, especially come DBS.

For example, Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan against Krillin because he needed the quick and instant power boost to overpower some of Krillin's attacks. It was a proper tournament rules-style match, so there were more factors at play than just strength and Goku was thinking tactically as well. In the episode beforehand, Krillin had trouble with base Gohan in a direct confrontation even though Gohan had yet to train with Piccolo and improve himself to the point of matching Piccolo in base form like against Saonel and Pirina, marking him as significantly weaker then he'd become.

While power differences matter, they're lessened because fights aren't as completely straightforward "bigger number makes smaller one irrelevant" slugfests like before. Things like positioning, defensive moves, etc., matter.

Hell, just look at the first time Vegeta fights Jiren in the anime. At first, Jiren just tanks his attacks like he did to Super Saiyan (2) Goku earlier on, with Vegeta commenting on the density of his energy basically protecting him like armour. The moment Vegeta gets past his attacks and lands a blow Jiren wasn't ready for? Suddenly manages to "pierce" his Ki, after which Vegeta briefly gains the upperhand since now he has something of a handle on Jiren's movements and can better attack him without his attacks simply being tanked.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:43 am

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:08 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:03 pm That doesn't take away from the fact that Goku needs transformations to match Gohan. SSJ2/3 Goku vs Future Trunks was also called practice. And fighting seriously in context just means fighting using large amounts of power until someone can't fight anymore. Gohan and Goku's serious fight was above Base/SSJ level unlike their previous encounter and it didn't stop until one of them was knocked out. A spar doesn't go that far, doesn't mean that the powers somehow aren't what they're shown to be.
Goku vs Trunks was not sparring. They were fighting seriously since Goku wanted to know how strong Trunks have gotten.
Don't bother. He's been spewing this nonsense on neoseeker as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:27 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:43 amDon't bother. He's been spewing this nonsense on neoseeker as well.
We're discussing a series with multiple writers and some having conflicting opinions. What about his opinion is nonsense? Usually a character only transforms if necessary aside from the few times Goku transformed into Blue only to hold back. Whoever wrote that episode might've thought Goku needed SSJ to spar with SSJ Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:43 pm

Skar wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:27 pm
Goku9001 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:43 amDon't bother. He's been spewing this nonsense on neoseeker as well.
We're discussing a series with multiple writers and some having conflicting opinions. What about his opinion is nonsense? Usually a character only transforms if necessary aside from the few times Goku transformed into Blue only to hold back. Whoever wrote that episode might've thought Goku needed SSJ to spar with SSJ Gohan.
I wouldn't use an inconsistency as an argument for anything. It's nonsense because he's insistent on using that as a piece of evidence that overrides the consistent narrative that Base Goku is much stronger than Base Gohan let alone SSJ Gohan. If we want to use this nonsensical argument, then we can just assume that the writers falsely assumed Base Gohan had surpassed Ultimate Gohan and had used Super Saiyan on top of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:53 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:43 pmI wouldn't use an inconsistency as an argument for anything. It's nonsense because he's insistent on using that as a piece of evidence that overrides the consistent narrative that Base Goku is much stronger than Base Gohan let alone SSJ Gohan. If we want to use this nonsensical argument, then we can just assume that the writers falsely assumed Base Gohan had surpassed Ultimate Gohan and had used Super Saiyan on top of it.
Was that ever implied? In Super Hero, Gohan goes SSJ then Ultimate but I don't think any continuity had a SSJ Ultimate Gohan. There's disagreement on how most other scenes were interpreted so I can't say his straightforward reading of that scene is nonsensical. This writer could've thought Vegeta using SSJ against SSJ Cabba and Goku using SSJ2 against SSJ2 Trunks meant Goku needed SSJ against a SSJ Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:13 pm

I get what supersaiyangodgogeta said. When Goku is seen using Super Saiyan against Trunks or Gohan, the context implies this constitutes an equal response to their power, while when Goku does the same thing against Krillin, it's a totally different scenario, in which Krillin is taking advantage of a technical rule to force Goku to compensate. This is a neat detail, because, in his fight against Jiren, Goku borrowed Krillin's strategy to force Jiren to power-up as well.

BWri wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pm He most likely wasn't close to Piccolo initially. He teleported behind him the first time using Chaos Cont--er--I mean the Hedgehog alien's teleporting skill. So he used stealth both times.
Are you fact-checking the manga before making these responses? After using the hedgegog's skill of opening portals, 7-3 and the others were walking towards the cage in which the Macareni Siblings were locked. Shimorekka was about to kill them and Piccolo intercepted. 7-3 was right on Piccolo's right side and quickly moved to his back. Only that, he didn't use any special skill. And the Hedgegogs' race is not the same as the invisible race. The stealth movement was only used when 7-3 fought Piccolo and Gohan the second time.

On top of that, that same 7-3 was unable to be one-shot by post-ToP Ultimate Gohan.
You say 7-3 with Piccolo's data was unable to be one-shot by Gohan. I don't understand what exactly we should expect to draw that line. Do you think the manga artist is bound by some kind of rule that he can't design a fight in the coolest way possible? Instead of what.. Gohan arrives, karate chops 7-3 and end of chapter? I wonder what you make of Goku and company when they fought Freeza in Namek, Freeza striked them multiple times and they kept trying to fight back despite the huge power difference. Goku in particular was hit by strikes dozens of times his power and kept fighting nonetheless.

You're using an out of universe concept, an idea born from a production error but one not told to us by any character or demonstrated in-universe. The story does not signify this in any way and simply continues along without even a wink and a nod. If there is anything, it is extremely subtle, which you say isn't substantial when it comes to Piccolo. However, I don't believe this exists at all in the manga or anime until the story provides that context.

Your idea is essentially fan theory/fan-fiction while the story is telling us what it's telling us. The story, as is outside of movie continuity does not recognize SBG and if it does then it was never lost. Whatever base form Goku used against Frieza continues to exist and he still uses it or it never existed at all.
What you calls "production error" or "fan fiction" (lol) is essentially just a plothole. Base Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God in all three versions of RoF. Really, this has been explained multiple times, but here we go again.

Goku says to Freeza he has the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form and Super Saiyan Blue is the Super Saiyan version of that (this is said in both the movie and the anime). The RoF two-chapter manga does it even better, it shows an image of SSG behind Goku when he is training with Whis.

However, when the DB Super manga went ahead of the DB Super anime and told the story of Champa tournament, Goku used the vanilla Super Saiyan and even SSG again, despite Toriyama himself saying he wouldn't need to anymore. And the anime seemingly got along with it, despite doing backs and forths (cof cof Pot-au-feu, Monaka costume episodes etc). This doesn't mean the godly base never existed, it just means that DB Super main story arcs forgot this was even a thing.

I don't know how exactly this was spreaded as a fan theory, maybe you are confusing it with the old two-base theory, something like Goku switching between them as he pleases, which is the only thing I remember happening on forums back in the day. If people still have any doubt about it, just lurk around Twitter for Herms' explanation, he cites the sources in detail. I honestly don't know if Kanzenshuu has a podcast or an article about it, but if there is one let me know.

OG 7-3 did get the Moro amp which I think puts him over them. It's implied that the clones got OG73's data. I can't recall if that included the skills he'd attained or if he permanently acquired Piccolo and Gohan's power like Moro did and passed that on to them. It's all murky, but I've always assumed that OG73 wasn't anything special by default even when he got the Moro amp.
Although humanoid-like, 7-3 is a machine, he probably wasn't powered-up by Moro in the same way as the others. He only was said to "power-up" when he collects data. Moro's back-up power for instance is something he strangely can't access on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have been defeated by 17, who was far weaker than Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:17 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:13 pm
BWri wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:23 pm He most likely wasn't close to Piccolo initially. He teleported behind him the first time using Chaos Cont--er--I mean the Hedgehog alien's teleporting skill. So he used stealth both times.
Are you fact-checking the manga before making these responses? After using the hedgegog's skill of opening portals, 7-3 and the others were walking towards the cage in which the Macareni Siblings were locked. Shimorekka was about to kill them and Piccolo intercepted. 7-3 was right on Piccolo's right side and quickly moved to his back. Only that, he didn't use any special skill. And the Hedgegogs' race is not the same as the invisible race. The stealth movement was only used when 7-3 fought Piccolo and Gohan the second time.

You might want to chill on the snark especially when you're the one not paying attention to the panels. Just before grabbing Piccolo's neck, we get the panel of the Hedgehog alien in 7-3's jewel 🤦‍♂️. Page 19. Next panel, page 20, he's at Piccolo's back. It's not a speed feat, he used teleportation.
Image
Image


Although humanoid-like, 7-3 is a machine, he probably wasn't powered-up by Moro in the same way as the others. He only was said to "power-up" when he collects data. Moro's back-up power for instance is something he strangely can't access on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have been defeated by 17, who was far weaker than Moro.
I hadn't considered that, but then again, I don't think anything in the story really backs this up. All of Moro's henchmen are powered up. Nothing really singles any of them out of the power up, narrative-wise. **Moro's backup power was more like a save-state for Moro himself. It seemed to be separate from 7-3's other copy ability. I think they explained it as such, but I'd have to go back and reread it.

I might circle back to that other stuff later.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:13 pmI don't know how exactly this was spreaded as a fan theory, maybe you are confusing it with the old two-base theory, something like Goku switching between them as he pleases, which is the only thing I remember happening on forums back in the day. If people still have any doubt about it, just lurk around Twitter for Herms' explanation, he cites the sources in detail. I honestly don't know if Kanzenshuu has a podcast or an article about it, but if there is one let me know.
I remember that theory. When SSJG returned, there was another theory it now had a different boost than in BoG but it wasn't really implied and seems overcomplicated. I still wonder how a DBS Kai would look like since I think all the scenes with SBG were anime only after RoF. I wouldn't mind if SBG was kept but it got confusion when the old SSJ forms and SSJG returned. We don't really know Toriyama's idea was since he had SBG in RoF but regular SSJ and God in Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:35 pm

BWri wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:17 pm You might want to chill on the snark especially when you're the one not paying attention to the panels. Just before grabbing Piccolo's neck, we get the panel of the Hedgehog alien in 7-3's jewel 🤦‍♂️. Page 19. Next panel, page 20, he's at Piccolo's back. It's not a speed feat, he used teleportation.
I saw the jewel, but there is nothing implying he used a hedgehog skill or teleportation there. The hedgehog race only showed two abilities, rapid-fire quills and blue warp portals, which 7-3 doesn’t use there (no portal behind him). If 7-3 had used any unusual ability it would be commented on. For instance, when Granolah used teleportation, Goku highlights it, which doesn’t happen in this case. So, it’s really irrelevant that the hedgehog jewel showed up there. Toyotaro probably just wanted the viewer to pay attention to the detail and see how it switched to Piccolo.

I hadn't considered that, but then again, I don't think anything in the story really backs this up. All of Moro's henchmen are powered up. Nothing really singles any of them out of the power up, narrative-wise. **Moro's backup power was more like a save-state for Moro himself. It seemed to be separate from 7-3's other copy ability. I think they explained it as such, but I'd have to go back and reread it.
Apart of 7-3 not being able to make use of Moro’s battle power? What else do you need? 7-3 probably doesn’t even have ki, just like 17 and 18 (he also has infinite stamina like them). Gohan and Piccolo weren’t able to sense him when he was right behind them (even if he was invisible his ki signature should tell them where he was). So, this probably made it a little harder for them to track him.

Skar wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:50 pm We don't really know Toriyama's idea was since he had SBG in RoF but regular SSJ and God in Broly.
He probably got along with it, like everyone else. He said a lot of things in interviews that probably wouldn’t happen anymore, like Goku using SS2, SS3 and SSG, and just like that he forgets lol.

I think Toriyama’s original intention was to simplify things, but that notion makes too difficult to design fights with sub-god-level characters and switching between all those forms helps the viewer to understand the fight is heating up. Not to mention more exposure to Super Saiyan forms boosts merchandise sales.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:53 am

Skar wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:53 pm Was that ever implied? In Super Hero, Gohan goes SSJ then Ultimate but I don't think any continuity had a SSJ Ultimate Gohan. There's disagreement on how most other scenes were interpreted so I can't say his straightforward reading of that scene is nonsensical. This writer could've thought Vegeta using SSJ against SSJ Cabba and Goku using SSJ2 against SSJ2 Trunks meant Goku needed SSJ against a SSJ Gohan.
That's bizarre because the straightforward logic is that if Person A has been proven countless times to be much stronger than Person B and yet is shown battling on equal grounds with Person B, either Person A is holding back significantly or is nerfed for whatever reason or Person B had grown much stronger. Their interpretation is one that completely ignores that context and looks at it at face value.

What if I told you that Kuririn is on par with Hit because he was pushing back Blue Goku's Kamehameha? Because different scenes can be interpreted in different ways, this should be a reasonable and fair interpretation that doesn't omit the facts. Correct?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:47 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:53 amThat's bizarre because the straightforward logic is that if Person A has been proven countless times to be much stronger than Person B and yet is shown battling on equal grounds with Person B, either Person A is holding back significantly or is nerfed for whatever reason or Person B had grown much stronger. Their interpretation is one that completely ignores that context and looks at it at face value.

What if I told you that Kuririn is on par with Hit because he was pushing back Blue Goku's Kamehameha? Because different scenes can be interpreted in different ways, this should be a reasonable and fair interpretation that doesn't omit the facts. Correct?
I wouldn't stop you from believing that but I'm pretty sure that would be omitting some facts since 18 and Gohan said he wouldn't stand a chance. I recall he mostly stayed in his lane and didn't fight anyone God tier in the actual tournament. We also have someone at Toei confirming the humans were still weaker than the SSJ kids.

I think the only scenes that implied Goku wouldn't need SSJ against a SSJ Gohan were the few still showing SBG used after RoF. It's not like he's the only one since whoever wrote those wafer cards thought SSJ Gohan in Super Hero was stronger than base Goku. I was fine with accepting that as evidence current base Goku was stronger than Piccolo so I'm fine with the other implication. We don't know how much stronger Toriyama has SSJ Gohan in Super Hero compared to RoF but Piccolo is still in the same position of between base and SSJ Gohan.

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