Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

I’m unsure quite how much this comes across in Viz’s version.

Viz's translation is "He's countering faster now, through sheer determination. But when Goku's body just reacts, it takes quite a toll on him. He may have achieved Ultra Instinct... but Goku hasn't trained enough to wield it properly."

I have no idea how accurate this is, but my reading is that most of the emphasis here is placed on Goku's shortcomings with the form, with those shortcomings exacerbated by the fact that Jiren is raising his speed.

[GodVegetto91]

People do know that these aren't real characters and that their words are actually coming from the author, right?

What a character says isn't there just because they are ad libbing whatever they feel like. There's an out of universe reason why something is said.



Also, SSBE stomping Jiren? What?

Here it is. You can clearly see Vegeta STOMPING Jiren.

Spoiler:

Wait, you call landing a couple of hits and not even putting the guy to the ground a STOMP?

The point is... A vastly weaker Vegeta did “BETTER” against Jiren, than a vastly STRONGER Vegeta did against Moro, (while fighting at absolute full power against Moro!)

Spoiler:

Keep in mind that the difference between these two Vegeta’s is almost astronomical. Not only has he trained after the ToP, but he has fought Broly, then trained again, then fought against Moro (twice) and lost (twice), then went to Yardrat and trained there for 3 whole months in the art of Spirit Control! You can’t even compare the two SSJ Blue Evolutions of Vegeta!

What’s so hard to understand about that?

[Cipher]

The point is... A vastly weaker Vegeta did “BETTER” against Jiren, than a vastly STRONGER Vegeta did against Moro, (while fighting at absolute full power against Moro!)

I’m ... not sure how much “better” he does against Jiren that it cements any direct comparison. If you look at what he actually manages in that fight, it’s catching Jiren off-guard with a knee, and scuffing his cheek with a kick, earning Jiren’s praise before being dropped to his knees with one blow. Jiren isn’t fighting at anywhere near his full power at that point either, and hasn’t yet even powered up to a point so as to display an aura.

Against Moro, he’s able to make openings for strikes in order to pull off Spirit Fission, but he isn’t exactly hurting Moro, aside from being able to land blows for the technique.

Both moments are impressive in their context, for how far the opponent is above everyone in raw power, but neither actually defeats them, or achieves much other than making openings, so there’s not much to go off of?

[GodVegetto91]

The point is... A vastly weaker Vegeta did “BETTER” against Jiren, than a vastly STRONGER Vegeta did against Moro, (while fighting at absolute full power against Moro!)

I’m ... not sure how much “better” he does against Jiren that it cements any direct comparison. If you look at what he actually manages in that fight, it’s catching Jiren off-guard with a knee, and scuffing his cheek with a kick, earning Jiren’s praise before being dropped to his knees with one blow. Jiren isn’t fighting at anywhere near his full power at that point either, and hasn’t yet even powered up to a point so as to display an aura.

Against Moro, he’s able to make openings for strikes in order to pull off Spirit Fission, but he isn’t exactly hurting Moro, aside from being able to land blows for the technique.

Both moments are impressive in their context, for how far the opponent is above everyone in raw power, but neither actually defeats them, or achieves much other than making openings, so there’s not much to go off of?

The one and defining thing that you seem to completely miss is that this Vegeta is vastly stronger than the one against Jiren. Why are you continuing to ignore that?

The simple point is that Prime Moro did better against a vastly more powerful Vegeta than Jiren did against a much weaker one.

[Cipher]

The one and defining thing that you seem to completely miss is that this Vegeta is vastly stronger than the one against Jiren. Why are you continuing to ignore that?

The simple point is that Prime Moro did better against a vastly more powerful Vegeta than Jiren did against a much weaker one.

Why does that matter? The same Vegeta who lands blows on Moro might have gotten his ass kicked by a full-power Jiren at the ToP. We have no idea.

Visually it’s also not clear to me that Moro does any better against that stronger Vegeta than a reserved Jiren does against his weaker one. Both are opened up but largely unfazed in the same way. If anything, Jiren drops the Vegeta he faces more readily?

[FishermanJohnWest]

Honestly SSJBE Vegeta or Omen right now should whoop Jiren

Omen right now can crush Omen from the TOP, and Jiren needed his FP just for that Omen Goku back then

SSJBE Vegeta would beat Jiren no problem, specifically considering that Jiren burnt himself out just to keep up with UI Goku

Vegeta also proved he is > Omen, he didn't get one-shot by Moro73

Vegeta vs Moro 73





Goku vs Moro 73





Vegeta got hit 3 times and can land back on his own feet, while Goku needed Merus help to stop.

[GodVegetto91]

The one and defining thing that you seem to completely miss is that this Vegeta is vastly stronger than the one against Jiren. Why are you continuing to ignore that?

The simple point is that Prime Moro did better against a vastly more powerful Vegeta than Jiren did against a much weaker one.

Why does that matter? The same Vegeta who lands blows on Moro might have gotten his ass kicked by a full-power Jiren at the ToP. We have no idea.

Visually it’s also not clear to me that Moro does any better against that stronger Vegeta than a reserved Jiren does against his weaker one. Both are opened up but largely unfazed in the same way. If anything, Jiren drops the Vegeta he faces more readily?

You are the one ignoring facts and feats, and you’re jumping to assumptions to support your belief that Jiren must somehow be the strongest.

The fact is, the feats speak for themselves.

Prime Moro did better against a vastly stronger Vegeta than Jiren did against a much weaker one.

These are the feats. They speak for themselves. Either you take them or you don’t.

[GodVegetto91]

Honestly SSJBE Vegeta or Omen right now should whoop Jiren

Omen right now can crush Omen from the TOP, and Jiren needed his FP just for that Omen Goku back then

SSJBE Vegeta would beat Jiren no problem, specifically considering that Jiren burnt himself out just to keep up with UI Goku

Vegeta also proved he is > Omen, he didn't get one-shot by Moro73

Vegeta vs Moro 73





Goku vs Moro 73





Vegeta got hit 3 times and can land back on his own feet, while Goku needed Merus help to stop.

Wow! That’s a nice example there! Thank you! I had completely overlooked this one!

That’s a nice one to add to my list of examples for why Spirit Control SSJ Blue Evolution Vegeta is superior to UI Omen Goku!

Nice catch!

Goku also lost his UI Omen form from that one shot by Moro 73. And was reverted to Base Form. While Vegeta stayed in his SSBE form after getting hit 3 times and falling to the ground.

It took a fully powered Big Bang attack by Moro 73 to put Vegeta out of commission!

[Cipher]

You are the one ignoring facts and feats, and you’re jumping to assumptions to support your belief that Jiren must somehow be the strongest.

The fact is, the feats speak for themselves.

Prime Moro did better against a vastly stronger Vegeta than Jiren did against a much weaker one.

These are the feats. They speak for themselves. Either you take them or you don’t.

What feats? We don’t get any that are directly comparable from the Moro-Jiren Vegeta fights. I don’t even think Jiren is necessarily stronger—there’s just nothing to read from those scenes. Ignoring the fact that Moro actually isn’t in any more control of his fight with Vegeta (he can’t seem to keep him down, whereas Jiren gets a bit more serious and does it with one blow, but that’s seriously beside the point), Jiren is not serious when he first fights Vegeta.

You wind up with “weaker Vegeta loses to Jiren who’s holding back” versus “stronger Vegeta loses to Moro, who might be close to full power or holding back.” What does that tell us? How can you get a direct comparison out of Jiren and Moro’s full strengths from that?

We see a Jiren who isn’t close to full power initially struggle with and then get serious and easily put down Vegeta. We later see a Moro (who is at full power? maybe not?) struggle with a stronger Vegeta but still have the upper hand. What comparison can you possibly draw from that? What does that tell us about Jiren’s full strength?

It’d be one one thing if Jiren were using his full power when he fought Vegeta, but he’s not. We have no idea how large the gap between them was, or whether the Vegeta who fights Moro—only taking those scenes on their own—has made up that gap. The only thing we know is that when Jiren got partially serious in the previous arc, he put down a weaker Vegeta with one elbow.

That’s not a vote for either Moro or Jiren being stronger. It’s just that those two points offer nothing to directly compare.

The comparison based on UI Omen performances a post up, by comparison, offers something much easier to compare and more compelling, because we know Jiren did use something close to his full power for that. If you want to analyze respective performances against Jiren and Moro to scale everyone off of, that’s the one to do it with—not the one where Jiren beats an opponent while still holding back most of his strength.

[Xeno Goku Black]

You have zero evidence for your claim that Jiren is stronger than Broly and the 2 versions of Moro.

Nobody has any evidence of any of the three characters being stronger than any of the others because it doesn't even exist.

The only thing there has been is the usual promotional hype in some magazine written by some random guy that works in the office.

Broly SSJ1 transformation was already enough to make Goku and Vegeta high tail it out of there, the SECOND he transformed, and immediately opted to FUSE.

Which was an option they never had with Jiren because where could they hightail it too? They're limited to being stuck in the ring. They already ruled out fusion because it risks two of them being eliminated at once like with Kefla so of course that wasn't a thing either.

Then we have Prime Moro who had eaten entire planets with trillions of lifeforms on each, for well over 2 months straight.

First of all that's largely an assumption as there was only 28 planets with intelligent life to begin with. Secondly, him eating these planets with these trillions of lifeforms accounts for what exactly?

Goku never ate a single planet and he was almost on his level to begin with. Broly didn't eat any lifeforms, he just got as strong as he did in about an hour and half. So this whole thing about eating worlds and absorbing lifeforms may sound really fancy but it means nothing when other characters are just that strong anyway.

a regular SSBE Vegeta (a much, MUCH weaker version of SSBE Vegeta) completely overwhelmed and stomped Jiren before he powered up and took Vegeta more serious.

And again, firstly Vegeta never stomped Jiren, he hit him a few times and he hardly gave much of a shit. Jiren never powered up, he simply had enough and took him out. This was no different from when he kicked around Beerus for a little while, literally no different.

And even if Jiren powered up afterwards...then Jiren wasn't using his full ability to begin with so what does that even matter? You may as well be comparing him to Moro when he was getting beaten around by Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

Now tell me who is stronger or weaker..

Jiren. The fight with Vegeta doesn't matter, Jiren powered up after he fought Vegeta, then he powered up again soon after, and then again soon after that.

Jiren held his own against Ultra Instinct Goku, he was able to withstand attacks from him, get a hold of him and outlast him. Moro at his best couldn't even land one attack on him. Not one.

[Cipher]

Nobody has any evidence of any of the three characters being stronger than any of the others because it doesn't even exist.

For the record, this is my actual “stance.”

Especially for Jiren and Moro, there is compelling (and ... less compelling) evidence in both directions.

But DB, Super included, is quite clear when it wants to be, and so far it has deigned to be no clearer than as to put the three of Jiren, Broly and Moro in a vague “stronger than Beerus” tier (and some people will even argue that—I won’t though).

[Skar]

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Drag ... r_Wafers_Z

I know these aren't meant to be taken too seriously but thought they were interesting. They have LSSJ Broly weaker than UI and Jiren and the Blue fusions above UI and Jiren. I assume these are only guesses from someone at Bandai but is there anything in the story that implies these might be true?

[GodVegetto91]

Jiren is ancient history. He appeared 2 arcs ago and his strength means absolutely nothing anymore now. He was strong when he first appeared sure, but ever since that Arc ended, the power creep has become insane. Next enemy (or should I say “MAIN” Enemy because one user above used several non main villains to prove his point) is always stronger than the last, with the exception of Beerus.

Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Occam’s Razor guys.

Jiren fought against an inexperienced UI. Broly fought against a Fusion that has gone SSJ BLUE! While Moro 73 fought against a fully mastered UI. It’s clear what the order of the villains’ power is here.

Also, (if my predictions are correct!), then Moro 73 will gain Merus’ Angel Powers + Ultra Instinct next chapter, and thus definitely become the strongest enemy Goku ever fought. He will power up to such an obvious extent, that even the two of you will be forced to admit that he’s stronger than Jiren!

Because Merus, Because “ANGEL”, because UI.

[Triggered Vegeta]

As much as I don't want it to be true..I agree with Miracles... Beerus has yet to be surpassed by any of Goku's past oponents... Yes I know Broly & Vegito were compared to Beerus... But something tells me Beerus & Goku will have a rematch. Only then will we see Beerus unleash his full power + possibly UI(Complete)

I know it's wrong to take all those statements and just ignore them... But it's just something bugging me.. Like Beerus is still being saved for something.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I assume these are only guesses from someone at Bandai but is there anything in the story that implies these might be true?

Well at the very least, Jiren put up a far better fight against Ultra Instinct than Broly did against Blue Gogeta.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Jiren is ancient history. He appeared 2 arcs ago and his strength means absolutely nothing anymore now.

Complete nonsense.

Next enemy (or should I say “MAIN” Enemy because one user above used several non main villains to prove his point) is always stronger than the last, with the exception of Beerus.

Which again is incorrect as Hit was physically inferior to Golden Frieza and Zamasu was weaker than Hit and Golden Frieza. You're trying to apply a DBZ rule to DBS even though it obviously doesn't apply.

Jiren fought against an inexperienced UI. Broly fought against a Fusion that has gone SSJ BLUE! While Moro 73 fought against a fully mastered UI. It’s clear what the order of the villains’ power is here.

There's absolutely nothing clear about anything you just said. The "experience" again doesn't mean anything. Goku has only used it twice in the first place and the second time he had it down fine, there was no extra experience from losing it and having it perfected.

Jiren fought an version of Ultra Instinct that Goku couldn't keep stable and held his own evenly. Moro fought a stable version and was pathetic in comparison.

Broly fought against a Fusion gone Blue!!!! Yeah so did Zamasu and did a better job if anything. How does this fusion compare to Ultra Instinct in the first place? Not even clear aside from Ultra Instinct clearly being superior to Super Saiyan Blue Vegito which again would suggest Jiren is the strongest of all.

Moro has the least going for him by a huge amount.

[GodVegetto91]

As much as I don't want it to be true..I agree with Miracles... Beerus has yet to be surpassed by any of Goku's past oponents... Yes I know Broly & Vegito were compared to Beerus... But something tells me Beerus & Goku will have a rematch. Only then will we see Beerus unleash his full power + possibly UI(Complete)

I know it's wrong to take all those statements and just ignore them... But it's just something bugging me.. Like Beerus is still being saved for something.

I don’t like the idea of Beerus having any kind of real UI. He’s known to be stupendously powerful already, and if he does turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73, then he has just proven that he’s a true “powerhouse”, as any destructive “God of Destruction” should be. UI makes things far more complicated and insane. It’s in the way. If Beerus is that strong without UI, then what would that make of UI Beerus? He would literally become invincible to anyone except for Whis and above Whis. And I think, being a God of Destruction, that UI doesn’t suit them, since they are defined by absolute destructive power.

[Triggered Vegeta]

As much as I don't want it to be true..I agree with Miracles... Beerus has yet to be surpassed by any of Goku's past oponents... Yes I know Broly & Vegito were compared to Beerus... But something tells me Beerus & Goku will have a rematch. Only then will we see Beerus unleash his full power + possibly UI(Complete)

I know it's wrong to take all those statements and just ignore them... But it's just something bugging me.. Like Beerus is still being saved for something.

I don’t like the idea of Beerus having any kind of real UI. He’s known to be stupendously powerful already, and if he does turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73, then he has just proven that he’s a true “powerhouse”, as any destructive “God of Destruction” should be. UI makes things far more complicated and insane. It’s in the way. If Beerus is that strong without UI, then what would that make of UI Beerus? He would literally become invincible to anyone except for Whis and above Whis. And I think, being a God of Destruction, that UI doesn’t suit them, since they are defined by absolute destructive power.

Yeah, I mean he already has UI sign/Omen if we go by the insane boost it gave Goku... Beerus would be just too much, but maybe by then Goku can match him... If not It'll be a 2 vs 1 With UI Goku & a very powerful Evolved Blue Vegeta vs Beerus.

[GodVegetto91]

Jiren is ancient history. He appeared 2 arcs ago and his strength means absolutely nothing anymore now.

Complete nonsense.

Next enemy (or should I say “MAIN” Enemy because one user above used several non main villains to prove his point) is always stronger than the last, with the exception of Beerus.

Which again is incorrect as Hit was physically inferior to Golden Frieza and Zamasu was weaker than Hit and Golden Frieza. You're trying to apply a DBZ rule to DBS even though it obviously doesn't apply.

Jiren fought against an inexperienced UI. Broly fought against a Fusion that has gone SSJ BLUE! While Moro 73 fought against a fully mastered UI. It’s clear what the order of the villains’ power is here.

There's absolutely nothing clear about anything you just said. The "experience" again doesn't mean anything. Goku has only used it twice in the first place and the second time he had it down fine, there was no extra experience from losing it and having it perfected.

Jiren fought an version of Ultra Instinct that Goku couldn't keep stable and held his own evenly. Moro fought a stable version and was pathetic in comparison.

Broly fought against a Fusion gone Blue!!!! Yeah so did Zamasu and did a better job if anything. How does this fusion compare to Ultra Instinct in the first place? Not even clear aside from Ultra Instinct clearly being superior to Super Saiyan Blue Vegito which again would suggest Jiren is the strongest of all.

Moro has the least going for him by a huge amount.

You can try to rationalize Jiren being stronger than Moro all you want, but it doesn’t make it any more true. It makes ZERO sense for an enemy from 2 Arcs ago to be anywhere CLOSE to the current one. Was Frieza close to Majin Buu in terms of power? No.
Was Vegeta close to Perfect Cell in terms of power? Hell No! So why should Jiren be anywhere close to a Fused Being from 2 Arcs later???!

You’re wrong. Hit WAS stronger than Golden Frieza near the very end of their fight! He forced (a post 3 year of training) SSJ Blue Goku to go Kaioken x10! And still provided extreme resistance to this all powerful Goku. When has Golden Freeza ever forced Goku to do that? Never mind a post 3 year of training Goku. Never!

The feats speak for themselves. You can continue to ignore them all you want, but doing that does not exactly make you look very good in front of anyone reading this conversation.

[GodVegetto91]

As much as I don't want it to be true..I agree with Miracles... Beerus has yet to be surpassed by any of Goku's past oponents... Yes I know Broly & Vegito were compared to Beerus... But something tells me Beerus & Goku will have a rematch. Only then will we see Beerus unleash his full power + possibly UI(Complete)

I know it's wrong to take all those statements and just ignore them... But it's just something bugging me.. Like Beerus is still being saved for something.

I don’t like the idea of Beerus having any kind of real UI. He’s known to be stupendously powerful already, and if he does turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73, then he has just proven that he’s a true “powerhouse”, as any destructive “God of Destruction” should be. UI makes things far more complicated and insane. It’s in the way. If Beerus is that strong without UI, then what would that make of UI Beerus? He would literally become invincible to anyone except for Whis and above Whis. And I think, being a God of Destruction, that UI doesn’t suit them, since they are defined by absolute destructive power.

Yeah, I mean he already has UI sign/Omen if we go by the insane boost it gave Goku... Beerus would be just too much, but maybe by then Goku can match him... If not It'll be a 2 vs 1 With UI Goku & a very powerful Evolved Blue Vegeta vs Beerus.

Yeah, and above all, I think it just takes away from what a God of Destruction is supposed to be ofcourse. Defined by divine absolute destructive power. UI is more suited for Angels as they’re relaxed and calm beings that don’t destroy.