Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

When it comes to Cabba, something to bear in mind is that this is Cabba's first time as a Super Saiyan, meaning he hasn't mastered the form.

Of course, but this doesn’t mean the boost that Super Saiyan provides to Cabba is not as great as to Vegeta. After all, the lack of experience didn’t really get in his way when he was using the form. Mastering it in this case would only make him stronger overall and helping him to sustain it for longer runs. Anyway, it doesn’t seem like the Universe 6 had this kind of trouble with Super Saiyan, they pretty much use it like Goten and Trunks.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta said Cabba was on par with him and that was never contradicted. I already explained why SS Cabba was no match for SS Vegeta.

Good Boo got stronger by training for an hour and even then only beat Goku by strategy not power.

Vegeta’s assessment was contradicted by what happened when they were Super Saiyans. If SS Cabba is no match for SS Vegeta, then the same happens in Base. All of this makes sense, since Beerus noted Vegeta was trying to train Cabba, like he did himself with Goku in the Battle of Gods Arc, so it’s likely that Vegeta was lying about them being evenly matched.

As I said before, Goku doesn’t note “Fit” Boo got more powerful, he only claims the speed has increased and commends his power. If you have a good grasp of Japanese you can see the difference. Besides, it’s pretty safe to assume that Boo was holding back in that fight, since he wasn’t angry.

So we are going to ignore the ass beating SS Vegeta gave Cabba that weakened him enough to not stand a chance with Super Saiyan? Even with the manga having them close as Super Saiyan?

OK.

Goku's line about Boo is vague enough to fit both interpretations and mine doesn't contradict past arcs.

[p-hyvo]

To demonstrate my point ( base Goku, gohan and u9 wolves being good buu tier) :
Lavender said that gohan was so badly poisoned that his ssj was just a little stronger than his base, and bergamo, seeing ssj gohan said that he was a strong opponent, and he never told such thing seeing buu.
That the definitive proof that base gohan and Goku are > good buu in the tdp saga, making fit but stronger than good buu as a consequence

[ZombieVito]

To demonstrate my point ( base Goku, gohan and u9 wolves being good buu tier) :
Lavender said that gohan was so badly poisoned that his ssj was just a little stronger than his base, and bergamo, seeing ssj gohan said that he was a strong opponent, and he never told such thing seeing buu.
That the definitive proof that base gohan and Goku are > good buu in the tdp saga, making fit but stronger than good buu as a consequence

Mind giving the timestamp when Lavender says it?

Gohan was said in E88 to just be getting back is original power from the Boo arc. His Super Saiyan can't be stronger than Boo.

[Hugo Boss]

So we are going to ignore the ass beating SS Vegeta gave Cabba that weakened him enough to not stand a chance with Super Saiyan? Even with the manga having them close as Super Saiyan?

OK.

Goku's line about Boo is vague enough to fit both interpretations and mine doesn't contradict past arcs.

Transforming into Super Saiyan in that circumstance apparently ignores the damage he received, just like when Goku fought Freeza the first time.

I don’t see how you can have two interpretations of what Goku said about Boo (You’re are faster and you are strong). This was a good opportunity to tell that Boo got stronger, but it’s not what he said there.

[ZombieVito]

Transforming into Super Saiyan in that circumstance apparently ignores the damage he received, just like when Goku fought Freeza the first time.

I don’t see how you can have two interpretations of what Goku said about Boo (You’re are faster and you are strong). This was a good opportunity to tell that Boo got stronger, but it’s not what he said there.

1) Just because Goku did it doesn't mean Cabba did. You are also ignoring a clear cut statement that compared them in base.

09:11 | Vegeta: "Impressive. In our normal states, you're evenly matched with me."

Vegeta had no reason to lie here. He didn't know Cabba couldn't transform yet.

So, the explanation for their fight is that Cabba didn't get revitalized by transforming into a Super Saiyan or Vegeta just did what PerhapsTheOtherOne said earlier to tank the punch.

2) Commeson Vegeta made a mockery of Gotenks so Boo had to get stronger to tangle with a much stronger Goku. It is what it is.

Or are you saying Good Boo > SS3 Gotenks too?

[p-hyvo]

To demonstrate my point ( base Goku, gohan and u9 wolves being good buu tier) :
Lavender said that gohan was so badly poisoned that his ssj was just a little stronger than his base, and bergamo, seeing ssj gohan said that he was a strong opponent, and he never told such thing seeing buu.
That the definitive proof that base gohan and Goku are > good buu in the tdp saga, making fit but stronger than good buu as a consequence

Mind giving the timestamp when Lavender says it?

Gohan was said in E88 to just be getting back is original power from the Boo arc. His Super Saiyan can't be stronger than Boo.

Gohan was already training with piccolo before that point. The "gaining back his original strength" thing is referred to him getting back the mystic form, it is not that literal like you make it

[Koitsukai]

We've seen SS revitalize Goku vs Freeza, Gohan vs Cell, SS Gotenks even got his teeth shattered by Buu but could still unleash his full power later. You could even say SS can grow teeth back lol. SS might not refill your health bar to the max but definitely makes your attacks much heavier, no matter how battered you are.
It's normal for transformations, not just SS, to revitalize the user, happened for Zarbon, for 2nd form Freeza in Namek, for 2nd form Cell after getting stomped by Vegeta, for Jiren vs MUI Goku, for Goku every time he went Omen, for Hakaishin Toppo, for SSBE Vegeta, for Manga Caulifla against Freeza and viceversa, Broly of course. Even the movies pick up on it and follow that trend. I don't see why Cabba would be the exception.

Aside of Vegeta's forehead defense, there's the matter of how come Cabba dealt zero damage to Vegeta after going SS? he hit him a couple of times, yes but nothing breathtaking like Base Vegeta's kick that got Cabba gasping for air, or like in the Buu arc when Goku and Vegeta were evenly matched. Vegeta was always in control here.

[p-hyvo]

To demonstrate my point ( base Goku, gohan and u9 wolves being good buu tier) :
Lavender said that gohan was so badly poisoned that his ssj was just a little stronger than his base, and bergamo, seeing ssj gohan said that he was a strong opponent, and he never told such thing seeing buu.
That the definitive proof that base gohan and Goku are > good buu in the tdp saga, making fit but stronger than good buu as a consequence

Mind giving the timestamp when Lavender says it?

Gohan was said in E88 to just be getting back is original power from the Boo arc. His Super Saiyan can't be stronger than Boo.

Ep 80, min 8:40
Bergamo says that gohan is a strong fighter. No such thing about buu is ever stated

So 80, min 11:40
Lavender says that gohan's strength has increased a bit by going ssj, and we can see that ssj poisoned gohan's performance isn't to different form healthy base gohan's one

[Hugo Boss]

Transforming into Super Saiyan in that circumstance apparently ignores the damage he received, just like when Goku fought Freeza the first time.

I don’t see how you can have two interpretations of what Goku said about Boo (You’re are faster and you are strong). This was a good opportunity to tell that Boo got stronger, but it’s not what he said there.

1) Just because Goku did it doesn't mean Cabba did. You are also ignoring a clear cut statement that compared them in base.

09:11 | Vegeta: "Impressive. In our normal states, you're evenly matched with me."

Vegeta had no reason to lie here. He didn't know Cabba couldn't transform yet.

So, the explanation for their fight is that Cabba didn't get revitalized by transforming into a Super Saiyan or Vegeta just did what PerhapsTheOtherOne said earlier to tank the punch.

2) Commeson Vegeta made a mockery of Gotenks so Boo had to get stronger to tangle with a much stronger Goku. It is what it is.

Or are you saying Good Boo > SS3 Gotenks too?

Goku vs. Freeza is just an example, but there are several others. So, it shouldn’t be that the reason. If SS Cabba is weaker than SS Vegeta, the same applies to their base, so it’s very safe to assume Vegeta was being a little generous there..

It’s perfectly lined up with the end of the original manga that Goten and Trunks got weaker by the years due to peace time, so if they get a little bit weaker, Gotenks gets a lot weaker. So, it’s possible that he became weaker than Good Boo. At least, that’s what the Tournament of Power Arc implies.

I just remembered that Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan while he was being retrained and Goku barely withstood an explosive wave from Piccolo later. Base Gohan also became as strong as Piccolo and almost as strong as Base Goku. So, the Base Saiyans are probably at SS2 level from Boo Arc or above and weaker than Good Boo at full power.

[ankokudaishogun]

When it comes to Cabba, something to bear in mind is that this is Cabba's first time as a Super Saiyan, meaning he hasn't mastered the form.

Of course, but this doesn’t mean the boost that Super Saiyan provides to Cabba is not as great as to Vegeta.

it kinda does?

For all purposes and intents, Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is actually Super Saiyan Grade-4(no reason to think Vegeta didn't master the transformation to that degree), which we all know is quite more effective than normal SS, which is what Cabba was using.

They are roughly on the same level while in base(no reason whatsoever for Vegeta to lie about it), but Vegeta's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation is much greater.

Of course this brings us back to the question whether Base Vegeta with Mortal Ki is stronger than a SS3 fusion or not...

[Hugo Boss]

When it comes to Cabba, something to bear in mind is that this is Cabba's first time as a Super Saiyan, meaning he hasn't mastered the form.

Of course, but this doesn’t mean the boost that Super Saiyan provides to Cabba is not as great as to Vegeta.

it kinda does?

For all purposes and intents, Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is actually Super Saiyan Grade-4(no reason to think Vegeta didn't master the transformation to that degree), which we all know is quite more effective than normal SS, which is what Cabba was using.

They are roughly on the same level while in base(no reason whatsoever for Vegeta to lie about it), but Vegeta's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation is much greater.

Of course this brings us back to the question whether Base Vegeta with Mortal Ki is stronger than a SS3 fusion or not...

The only difference between Grade 1 and Grade 4 is the stress of Grade 1, which makes Grade 4 having less energy consumption. Therefore, they can fight as Super Saiyan for longer in Grade 4. There is no difference between the boost they provide. This is how these concepts were presented. In Dragon Ball Super, it doesn’t seem like Cabba and Caulifla even had to make that special training to master Super Saiyan. They did it quickly and even became able to use Super Saiyan 2 on their own.

[ankokudaishogun]

For all purposes and intents, Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is actually Super Saiyan Grade-4(no reason to think Vegeta didn't master the transformation to that degree), which we all know is quite more effective than normal SS, which is what Cabba was using.

The only difference between Grade 1 and Grade 4 is the stress of Grade 1, which makes Grade 4 having less energy consumption. Therefore, they can fight as Super Saiyan for longer in Grade 4. There is no difference between the boost they provide.[/quote]
Yeah. No.

You might want to watch\read again Super Vegeta vs Perfect Cell, then Grade-4 Goku vs Perfect Cell.

There is too much of performance difference to affirm there is no change in the boost.

The improved boost is likely to be intended as a side-effect of mastering the transformation instead of being the point of tweaking it like with Grade-2 and Grade-3. Like, now they have full control of their Ki manipulation so while their base gets the usual x50 boost, they manipulate it more effectively, which results into a greater power.

It doesn't change the fact that a Grade-4 Super Saiyan is much more powerful in the end than a "basic" one

[Hugo Boss]

The only difference between Grade 1 and Grade 4 is the stress of Grade 1, which makes Grade 4 having less energy consumption. Therefore, they can fight as Super Saiyan for longer in Grade 4. There is no difference between the boost they provide.

Yeah. No.

You might want to watch\read again Super Vegeta vs Perfect Cell, then Grade-4 Goku vs Perfect Cell.

There is too much of performance difference to affirm there is no change in the boost.

The improved boost is likely to be intended as a side-effect of mastering the transformation instead of being the point of tweaking it like with Grade-2 and Grade-3. Like, now they have full control of their Ki manipulation so while their base gets the usual x50 boost, they manipulate it more effectively, which results into a greater power.

It doesn't change the fact that a Grade-4 Super Saiyan is much more powerful in the end than a "basic" one

It should be said this discussion is old, irrelevant and off-topic, since Toei doesn’t even acknowledges the difference between a mastered Super Saiyan and a first-time Super Saiyan in Dragon Ball Super.

But as a side note, I don’t know what your point exactly is. Official sources like Super Exciting Guide reaffirm that Super Saiyan provides a 50-fold boost, be it when Goku uses against Freeza, be it when he uses against Cell and Majin Boo. Obviously, the much higher powerlevel Goku can reach after mastering it is a side-effect. But for all the intents and purposes, his base form is 50-fold boosted in any circumstance.

[ZombieVito]

Transforming into Super Saiyan in that circumstance apparently ignores the damage he received, just like when Goku fought Freeza the first time.

I don’t see how you can have two interpretations of what Goku said about Boo (You’re are faster and you are strong). This was a good opportunity to tell that Boo got stronger, but it’s not what he said there.

1) Just because Goku did it doesn't mean Cabba did. You are also ignoring a clear cut statement that compared them in base.

09:11 | Vegeta: "Impressive. In our normal states, you're evenly matched with me."

Vegeta had no reason to lie here. He didn't know Cabba couldn't transform yet.

So, the explanation for their fight is that Cabba didn't get revitalized by transforming into a Super Saiyan or Vegeta just did what PerhapsTheOtherOne said earlier to tank the punch.

2) Commeson Vegeta made a mockery of Gotenks so Boo had to get stronger to tangle with a much stronger Goku. It is what it is.

Or are you saying Good Boo > SS3 Gotenks too?

Goku vs. Freeza is just an example, but there are several others. So, it shouldn’t be that the reason. If SS Cabba is weaker than SS Vegeta, the same applies to their base, so it’s very safe to assume Vegeta was being a little generous there..

It’s perfectly lined up with the end of the original manga that Goten and Trunks got weaker by the years due to peace time, so if they get a little bit weaker, Gotenks gets a lot weaker. So, it’s possible that he became weaker than Good Boo. At least, that’s what the Tournament of Power Arc implies.

I just remembered that Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan while he was being retrained and Goku barely withstood an explosive wave from Piccolo later. Base Gohan also became as strong as Piccolo and almost as strong as Base Goku. So, the Base Saiyans are probably at SS2 level from Boo Arc or above and weaker than Good Boo at full power.

So let me get this straight.

So are implying Final fucking Form Freeza is weaker than Good Boo. When First Form Freeza demolished SS Gohan back in the RoF arc?

Gotenks also getting several times weaker was never implied, like ever.

[Hugo Boss]

1) Just because Goku did it doesn't mean Cabba did. You are also ignoring a clear cut statement that compared them in base.


Vegeta had no reason to lie here. He didn't know Cabba couldn't transform yet.

So, the explanation for their fight is that Cabba didn't get revitalized by transforming into a Super Saiyan or Vegeta just did what PerhapsTheOtherOne said earlier to tank the punch.

2) Commeson Vegeta made a mockery of Gotenks so Boo had to get stronger to tangle with a much stronger Goku. It is what it is.

Or are you saying Good Boo > SS3 Gotenks too?

Goku vs. Freeza is just an example, but there are several others. So, it shouldn’t be that the reason. If SS Cabba is weaker than SS Vegeta, the same applies to their base, so it’s very safe to assume Vegeta was being a little generous there..

It’s perfectly lined up with the end of the original manga that Goten and Trunks got weaker by the years due to peace time, so if they get a little bit weaker, Gotenks gets a lot weaker. So, it’s possible that he became weaker than Good Boo. At least, that’s what the Tournament of Power Arc implies.

I just remembered that Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan while he was being retrained and Goku barely withstood an explosive wave from Piccolo later. Base Gohan also became as strong as Piccolo and almost as strong as Base Goku. So, the Base Saiyans are probably at SS2 level from Boo Arc or above and weaker than Good Boo at full power.

So let me get this straight.

So are implying Final fucking Form Freeza is weaker than Good Boo. When First Form Freeza demolished SS Gohan back in the RoF arc?

Gotenks also getting several times weaker was never implied, like ever.

If Base Goku is weaker than Good Boo and Final form Freeza is equal to Base Goku, then that’s pretty much it. What’s the problem? It’s not like Freeza’s transformations work like Super Saiyan.

SS3 Gotenks was stronger than Good Boo. If he can’t beat Base Vegeta, who is weaker than Good Boo, that’s either an inconsistency or Gotenks got weaker. Both are acceptable reasons. Obviously, if Goten and Trunks hadn’t been training they are getting weaker and that should greatly affect the result of their fusion.

[Soldierofficial]

Goku vs. Freeza is just an example, but there are several others. So, it shouldn’t be that the reason. If SS Cabba is weaker than SS Vegeta, the same applies to their base, so it’s very safe to assume Vegeta was being a little generous there..

It’s perfectly lined up with the end of the original manga that Goten and Trunks got weaker by the years due to peace time, so if they get a little bit weaker, Gotenks gets a lot weaker. So, it’s possible that he became weaker than Good Boo. At least, that’s what the Tournament of Power Arc implies.

I just remembered that Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan while he was being retrained and Goku barely withstood an explosive wave from Piccolo later. Base Gohan also became as strong as Piccolo and almost as strong as Base Goku. So, the Base Saiyans are probably at SS2 level from Boo Arc or above and weaker than Good Boo at full power.

So let me get this straight.

So are implying Final fucking Form Freeza is weaker than Good Boo. When First Form Freeza demolished SS Gohan back in the RoF arc?

Gotenks also getting several times weaker was never implied, like ever.

If Base Goku is weaker than Good Boo and Final form Freeza is equal to Base Goku, then that’s pretty much it. What’s the problem? It’s not like Freeza’s transformations work like Super Saiyan.

SS3 Gotenks was stronger than Good Boo. If he can’t beat Base Vegeta, who is weaker than Good Boo, that’s either an inconsistency or Gotenks got weaker. Both are acceptable reasons. Obviously, if Goten and Trunks hadn’t been training they are getting weaker and that should greatly affect the result of their fusion.

I believe that RoF Freeza is stronger than Good Boo but weaker than Kid Boo since we know that EoZ Base Goku is not stronger than Oob who is as strong as Kid Boo at best.

[Hugo Boss]

I believe that RoF Freeza is stronger than Good Boo but weaker than Kid Boo since we know that EoZ Base Goku is not stronger than Oob who is as strong as Kid Boo at best.

The 28th world martial arts tournament era is a little more complicated to fit in this, since Goku intended to conserve his energy to fight Oob, so he was probably expecting quite a challenge. I don’t know if necessarily as strong as Kid Boo, but assuming Goku had probably mastered SS3 (or Ultra Instinct) at that point, who knows how strong he thought his opponent would be.

I think we can ignore Dragon Ball Super stuff just for consistency sake, so if Goku considered Oob had a chance of winning perhaps he thought the kid could rival his SS3 level at that point.

[ZombieVito]

Goku vs. Freeza is just an example, but there are several others. So, it shouldn’t be that the reason. If SS Cabba is weaker than SS Vegeta, the same applies to their base, so it’s very safe to assume Vegeta was being a little generous there..

It’s perfectly lined up with the end of the original manga that Goten and Trunks got weaker by the years due to peace time, so if they get a little bit weaker, Gotenks gets a lot weaker. So, it’s possible that he became weaker than Good Boo. At least, that’s what the Tournament of Power Arc implies.

I just remembered that Piccolo beat SS2 Gohan while he was being retrained and Goku barely withstood an explosive wave from Piccolo later. Base Gohan also became as strong as Piccolo and almost as strong as Base Goku. So, the Base Saiyans are probably at SS2 level from Boo Arc or above and weaker than Good Boo at full power.

So let me get this straight.

So are implying Final fucking Form Freeza is weaker than Good Boo. When First Form Freeza demolished SS Gohan back in the RoF arc?

Gotenks also getting several times weaker was never implied, like ever.

If Base Goku is weaker than Good Boo and Final form Freeza is equal to Base Goku, then that’s pretty much it. What’s the problem? It’s not like Freeza’s transformations work like Super Saiyan.

That just can't work.

Take Goku's fight with Beerus in E42 as an example.

Base Goku there gave a much better fight than his BoG SS3 self ever did. I just can't see him being weaker.

[Hugo Boss]

That just can't work.

Take Goku's fight with Beerus in E42 as an example.

Base Goku there gave a much better fight than his BoG SS3 self ever did. I just can't see him being weaker.

Considering Beerus is much stronger than Super Saiyan Blue and he was fighting on par with Base Goku, his costume probably put quite a hindrance in his performance. So, there is really nothing to take from that.