Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

But it IS fanmade to simply assume all powerups are uniform in how hey function. For example, SS Grade 3 is specifically noted for increasing power but also decreasing speed. Based on your interpretation, as a powerup, everything increases across the board. However, the show and manga state otherwise.

Same with Dyspo. Based on YOUR interpretation (non-factual and subjective, BTW), Dyspo increased everything across the board. However, the show states otherwise by only drawing attention to how much Dyspo has increased in speed; no character ever notes an increase in power, ONLY speed. Even his powerup refers ONLY to his speed, Super Maximum Light "SPEED" Mode.

Based on YOUR subjective and non-factual interpretation, Dyspo shouldn't even be noted for his speed and have exactly as much power as his speed would imply i.e. strength beyond even gods. His speed and power absolutely MUST correlate exactly based on your subjective and non-factual interpretation, which means no person ever in the series could have different trait allocation if they power up one stat, since they automatically have to power everything else up as well. It's an extremely slippery slope, argumentatively speaking.

You keep saying it's my interpretation but the battle mechanic rules for Dragonball have always been SET like this. Show me where it changed EVER?
After powering up We see Dyspo PHYSICALLY block a Golden Freeza who can ONE SHOT Blue Goku to sleep.
We SEE Dyspo Physically go toe-to-toe with Gohan who can rival Blue Goku in power WITHOUT his speed advantage.
Super Saiyan grade modes ACTUALLY proves my point about Dragonball battle mechanics. When one is not balanced the power/skill is inadequate in a series that always preached balance with Ki level.
The fanon is trying to make this series about skill or class people in a "special" category like this is pokemon or naruto or something. Dragonball will always be about higher Battle power being the strongest.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

When was that shown? She was overpowered by a fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK to it's max if not x10 as I discussed prior. Either way being below a fatigue SSBKK x10 or below won't make her above SSBKK x20 Goku in SSJ2. We can also factor in the fact Vados implies that a fullpower SSB Goku would be troublesome if not too much for her to handle so logically she would be around regular SSBKK (x2 or x3) compared to a fullpower Goku.



Again as I discussed Goku starts up with normal Kaioken( doubling his power), we see in the battle with Hit when he says just kaioken it doubles his power. If you pay attention when he charges up from normal kaioken(x2-x4) his aura begins to expand when he finally reaches x10 but you could also argue he uses his max normal kaioken(jumping from x2 to x3 or x4). Logically it shouldn't be x20 as that's a massive gap from normal kaioken which is close to doubling his power. Not to mention Beerus implies using kaioken was bad on his fatigue state so it'll be absurd to think he capable of using close to his fullpower now. Goku going UI was in episode 110 which was 10 minutes ago assuming each episode was 2 minutes at the time so it makes sense for a "little time ago" to be more recent. It wouldn't make sense to say she surpassed Goku UI from episode 110 as his had more stamina and ki back then than currently which only had improved in polish moves. Assuming it was 110 UI Goku, Kefla should've surpassed his current stage. Goku only needed to power up a little which according to Gohan ignited her to power up more which was improved by Picoolo. He was fatigue to the point where after he did a direct shockwave punch to her which she mocked, he started panting hard and needed to finish the fight with a Kamekameka. But that's not to say his attacks didn't work as Kefla is just letting her ego get in the way and we clearly see her taking damage(damage marks, spitting, grunting in pain). It makes sense for her to only surpass SSBKK which already overpowered her more recently.

No, Goku used x20 during the whole first round with Jiren without mentioning the level and the aura wasn't super big, neither have anything to do with the level of Kaioken he's using. I wasn't referring to 110 UI as the level Kafla had surpassed, I was referring to 115 UI, something that had just happened. Also, again, whole theme of the fight.

Base Goku > SS2 Caulifla (because of skill)
SS2 Caulifla (improved) > Base Goku
SS2 Goku > SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale > SS2 Goku
SS3 Goku > SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale
SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale > SS2 Goku (though I think Goku using SS3 here would've worked better)
SSG Goku > SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale
Kafla > SSG Goku
SSB Goku > Kafla
SS1 Kafla > SSB Goku
SSB KKx20 Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS1 Kafla (full power) > SSB KKx20 Goku
UIO Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS2 Kafla > UIO Goku
UIO Goku (improved) > SS2 Kafla

Whenever Goku speaks only "Kaioken" without specifying the level, he is using the normal Kaioken. But if he's using Kaioken on a higher level, he's always going to get the quote from some character specifying that level or Goku himself will say that. In the fight against Jiren, Goku did not specify the level of the technique, but it was said by Beerus and Whis that Goku was using the Kaioken x20.

In EP 123, Goku did not specify the level of the Kaioken, but Beerus again stated that he was using all the forces he possessed, indicating that he was also using the Kaioken x20. If Goku only speaks "Kaioken" and does not have any external quotation specified the level used, then it is only the normal Kaioken

And if Piccolo was saying that Kefla has surpassed the level that Goku had "not long ago", this refers to the most recent level used in EP 115 and not the UI of EP 110. In that case, it would make sense that Whis explanation about Genkidama was not referring to power, but to the fact that Kefla and Genkidama forced Goku to activate the UI

How convenient that your interpretation means that there's no way to possibly prove otherwise, even when Goku using a higher level of Kaioken makes logical sense and him using lower levels creates plotholes and inconsistencies when characters such as Kafla and Fused Zamasu look weak, when we later see those characters performing feats WAY outside of the abilities of KKx2.

The most recent level used by Goku that Piccolo could've been referring to is Ultra Instinct when he transformed against SS1 Kafla. That is the level that SS2 Kafla surpassed. SS2 Kafla is the level that Piccolo hoped UI Goku would be able to grow beyond, which he did by the end of the fight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But it IS fanmade to simply assume all powerups are uniform in how hey function. For example, SS Grade 3 is specifically noted for increasing power but also decreasing speed. Based on your interpretation, as a powerup, everything increases across the board. However, the show and manga state otherwise.

Same with Dyspo. Based on YOUR interpretation (non-factual and subjective, BTW), Dyspo increased everything across the board. However, the show states otherwise by only drawing attention to how much Dyspo has increased in speed; no character ever notes an increase in power, ONLY speed. Even his powerup refers ONLY to his speed, Super Maximum Light "SPEED" Mode.

Based on YOUR subjective and non-factual interpretation, Dyspo shouldn't even be noted for his speed and have exactly as much power as his speed would imply i.e. strength beyond even gods. His speed and power absolutely MUST correlate exactly based on your subjective and non-factual interpretation, which means no person ever in the series could have different trait allocation if they power up one stat, since they automatically have to power everything else up as well. It's an extremely slippery slope, argumentatively speaking.

You keep saying it's my interpretation but the battle mechanic rules for Dragonball have always been SET like this. Show me where it changed EVER?
After powering up We see Dyspo PHYSICALLY block a Golden Freeza who can ONE SHOT Blue Goku to sleep.
We SEE Dyspo Physically go toe-to-toe with Gohan who can rival Blue Goku in power WITHOUT his speed advantage.
Super Saiyan grade modes ACTUALLY proves my point about Dragonball battle mechanics. When one is not balanced the power/skill is inadequate in a series that always preached balance with Ki level.

Why don't YOU show where it was ever explicitly stated in-universe or in a guidebook/interview that such rules were always and forever will be set in stone, and thus every writing direction ever has this mentality explicitly in mind? Hmm? Where's YOUR objective evidence? There isn't any such concrete and immutable facts of the franchise that have been immortalized for all future installments; every scenario must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis with only tangential reference to prior events where appropriate. I'm in just as much of a position to demand evidence as you are, so don't think pointing fingers will get you anywhere.

Based on narrative direction, in-universe statements, and your own shaky examinations based on flawed past references, I conclude that you don't have any stable ground to stand on for your argument. The evidence is entirely against you.

Dyspo's speed is the only thing ever noted in-universe as explicitly increasing, the characters constantly point to how his speed allows him to overwhelm Freeza and Gohan, and nobody ever says anything along the likes of his strength increasing. Unless you have something better than "well, this was clearly the case in the past" or "this subjective interpretation of a snippet of animation is undeniable proof", I can say with certainty that you have no further rebuttal and concede the debate.

[Miracles]

Why don't YOU show where it was ever explicitly stated in-universe or in a guidebook/interview that such rules were always and forever will be set in stone, and thus every writing direction ever has this mentality explicitly in mind? Hmm? Where's YOUR objective evidence? There isn't any such concrete and immutable facts of the franchise that have been immortalized for all future installments; every scenario must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis with only tangential reference to prior events where appropriate. I'm in just as much of a position to demand evidence as you are, so don't think pointing fingers will get you anywhere.

Based on narrative direction, in-universe statements, and your own shaky examinations based on flawed past references, I conclude that you don't have any stable ground to stand on for your argument. The evidence is entirely against you.

Dyspo's speed is the only thing ever noted in-universe as explicitly increasing, the characters constantly point to how his speed allows him to overwhelm Freeza and Gohan, and nobody ever says anything along the likes of his strength increasing. Unless you have something better than "well, this was clearly the case in the past" or "this subjective interpretation of a snippet of animation is undeniable proof", I can say with certainty that you have no further rebuttal and concede the debate.

Dyspo is SHOWN to block and hurt Golden Freeza who is Blue level and Go toe-to-toe, trading physical blows with Gohan when his SPEED is taken away.
Gohan then stated it was a "STRAIGHT OUT BRAWL!" NO SPEED. Why are you not understating this canon fact?

What is the key to winning in battle?
Toriyama: "In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

This theme continues...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Why don't YOU show where it was ever explicitly stated in-universe or in a guidebook/interview that such rules were always and forever will be set in stone, and thus every writing direction ever has this mentality explicitly in mind? Hmm? Where's YOUR objective evidence? There isn't any such concrete and immutable facts of the franchise that have been immortalized for all future installments; every scenario must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis with only tangential reference to prior events where appropriate. I'm in just as much of a position to demand evidence as you are, so don't think pointing fingers will get you anywhere.

Based on narrative direction, in-universe statements, and your own shaky examinations based on flawed past references, I conclude that you don't have any stable ground to stand on for your argument. The evidence is entirely against you.

Dyspo's speed is the only thing ever noted in-universe as explicitly increasing, the characters constantly point to how his speed allows him to overwhelm Freeza and Gohan, and nobody ever says anything along the likes of his strength increasing. Unless you have something better than "well, this was clearly the case in the past" or "this subjective interpretation of a snippet of animation is undeniable proof", I can say with certainty that you have no further rebuttal and concede the debate.

Dyspo is SHOWN to block and hurt Golden Freeza who is Blue level and Go toe-to-toe, trading physical blows with Gohan when his SPEED is taken away.
Gohan then stated it was a "STRAIGHT OUT BRAWL!" NO SPEED. Why are you not understating this canon fact?

What is the key to winning in battle?
Toriyama: "In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

This theme continues...

Guess what..... Ki isn't just about strength. As you yourself stated, Ki boosts ALL attributes, and Toriyama makes note of its size AND control.

Ki can be trained and focused into a multitude of different ways, like beams, blasts, raw strength at the cost of decreased speed....... or raw and unbridled speed far beyond light. Also, JUST CHECKED AGAIN. They only ever restricted Dyspo's movements with the cage, not his actual speed. He can't move as fast only because he has no room to move at his normal super high speed strides. We see that Gohan has the edge in that fight, and only ever got caught once.

Trading blows also doesn't work for your argument's favour, as plenty of fighters of different power levels have done this before. Frost can trade blows with SS Vegeta despite Vegeta confidently being ready to take him on in base form, as can Ribrianne even though base Goku was evenly trading blows with her AND her Super form; 18 also did this with Ribrianne, whilst base Goku did this with SS2 Caulifla. Jiren has also done this multiple times against SSB Goku/Vegeta despite showing in the exact same fights that he was easily capable of taking them on whilst they were powered up with Kaio-ken and upgraded Blue, respectively.

Not to mention that, whilst fact checking with the episode, I once again noticed that no statements have been made about Dyspo's strength increasing, only ever his speed. Why is it so hard to believe that Dyspo's speed is what allows him to pressure Freeza, anyways? Why does he need to have increased his strength? Based on the quote you brought up, we can simply say that Dyspo increased his amount of Ki and focused it into even more of his speed, since that's his specialty.

[Raphael_Z]

Speed is correlated to power. DC's Flash does NOT have above human strength BUT he can punch way harder than a normal human because of the speed of his punches. The same applies to Dyspo, his raw power remains the same BUT he can punch way harder because of his speed.

I mean, if you throw a bullet by hand to someone's head they will not be harmed at all...but if you use a gun to fire it super fast they're done for. That's what Dyspo's gimmick is all about. His fists are the bullet: relatively harmless at low-speed and extremely deadly at high speed.

This (more speed more power) has been a staple of Dragon Ball ever since the beginning. Tao Pai Pai's tongue is not made of steel but he was able to outright murder General Blue with it because he moved at an extreme speed.

When Dyspo's speed was taken out of the equation, he could NOT keep up with Ultimate Gohan who is definitely below the remaining contestants in terms of raw power.

[Miracles]

Guess what..... Ki isn't just about strength. As you yourself stated, Ki boosts ALL attributes, and Toriyama makes note of its size AND control.

Ki can be trained and focused into a multitude of different ways, like beams, blasts, raw strength at the cost of decreased speed....... or raw and unbridled speed far beyond light. Also, JUST CHECKED AGAIN. They only ever restricted Dyspo's movements with the cage, not his actual speed. He can't move as fast only because he has no room to move at his normal super high speed strides. We see that Gohan has the edge in that fight, and only ever got caught once.

Trading blows also doesn't work for your argument's favour, as plenty of fighters of different power levels have done this before. Frost can trade blows with SS Vegeta despite Vegeta confidently being ready to take him on in base form, as can Ribrianne even though base Goku was evenly trading blows with her AND her Super form; 18 also did this with Ribrianne, whilst base Goku did this with SS2 Caulifla. Jiren has also done this multiple times against SSB Goku/Vegeta despite showing in the exact same fights that he was easily capable of taking them on whilst they were powered up with Kaio-ken and upgraded Blue, respectively.

Not to mention that, whilst fact checking with the episode, I once again noticed that no statements have been made about Dyspo's strength increasing, only ever his speed. Why is it so hard to believe that Dyspo's speed is what allows him to pressure Freeza, anyways? Why does he need to have increased his strength? Based on the quote you brought up, we can simply say that Dyspo increased his amount of Ki and focused it into even more of his speed, since that's his specialty.

Cause When a person doesn't have strength to back up it's speed it gets noted. Just like Vegeta noted Hit's punches had no weight, Same with Kefla mentioning about UI Goku.
It is simply headcannon to think Dyspo who was matching Blue tier Gohan in a BRAWL with no speed, which correlates to his movements and blocked Golden Freeza's punch in one spot with no movement is a speed feat. When Toriyama says PHYSICAL STRENGTH he means OVERALL power cause Ki in Dragonball is used for everything from flight to power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Guess what..... Ki isn't just about strength. As you yourself stated, Ki boosts ALL attributes, and Toriyama makes note of its size AND control.

Ki can be trained and focused into a multitude of different ways, like beams, blasts, raw strength at the cost of decreased speed....... or raw and unbridled speed far beyond light. Also, JUST CHECKED AGAIN. They only ever restricted Dyspo's movements with the cage, not his actual speed. He can't move as fast only because he has no room to move at his normal super high speed strides. We see that Gohan has the edge in that fight, and only ever got caught once.

Trading blows also doesn't work for your argument's favour, as plenty of fighters of different power levels have done this before. Frost can trade blows with SS Vegeta despite Vegeta confidently being ready to take him on in base form, as can Ribrianne even though base Goku was evenly trading blows with her AND her Super form; 18 also did this with Ribrianne, whilst base Goku did this with SS2 Caulifla. Jiren has also done this multiple times against SSB Goku/Vegeta despite showing in the exact same fights that he was easily capable of taking them on whilst they were powered up with Kaio-ken and upgraded Blue, respectively.

Not to mention that, whilst fact checking with the episode, I once again noticed that no statements have been made about Dyspo's strength increasing, only ever his speed. Why is it so hard to believe that Dyspo's speed is what allows him to pressure Freeza, anyways? Why does he need to have increased his strength? Based on the quote you brought up, we can simply say that Dyspo increased his amount of Ki and focused it into even more of his speed, since that's his specialty.

Cause When a person doesn't have strength to back up it's speed it gets noted. Just like Vegeta noted Hit's punches had no weight, Same with Kefla mentioning about UI Goku.
It is simply headcannon to think Dyspo who was matching Blue tier Gohan in a BRAWL with no speed, which correlates to his movements and blocked Golden Freeza's punch in one spot with no movement is a speed feat. When Toriyama says PHYSICAL STRENGTH he means OVERALL power cause Ki in Dragonball is used for everything from flight to power.

No, it's simply headcanon to think that Dyspo had increased his strength when he only ever was directly stated to have increased his speed. The entire point of the cage was to hamper Dyspo's speed.

The Flash is allowed to hit above his strength class through speed, why not Dyspo? Let me guess....... "because that's not how it works in DB" would be your rebuttal. That's not a valid argument because we've never had a situation where a character so vastly eclipses other characters through speed, so there's no precedent. And funny you bring up Hit and Ultra Instinct Goku....... because those are also instances where the actual manner in which blows are delivered were what were highlighted, and not simply the strength of the characters dishing them out. Hit was using light strikes and then instantly disabled Vegeta with a heavy strike, and Ultra Instinct Goku had to rely on charging up a Kamehameha because his attacks were too soft.

[Miracles]

No, it's simply headcanon to think that Dyspo had increased his strength when he only ever was directly stated to have increased his speed. The entire point of the cage was to hamper Dyspo's speed.

The Flash is allowed to hit above his strength class through speed, why not Dyspo? Let me guess....... "because that's not how it works in DB" would be your rebuttal. That's not a valid argument because we've never had a situation where a character so vastly eclipses other characters through speed, so there's no precedent. And funny you bring up Hit and Ultra Instinct Goku....... because those are also instances where the actual manner in which blows are delivered were what were highlighted, and not simply the strength of the characters dishing them out. Hit was using light strikes and then instantly disabled Vegeta with a heavy strike, and Ultra Instinct Goku had to rely on charging up a Kamehameha because his attacks were too soft.

And no one noted Dyspo's blows were soft. Even without his speed he was able to "brawl" with Gohan who "rivaled" Blue Goku in power. That is strength feat alone cause If Dyspo's power up only increases his speed then he would have no power behind his blows. Look at Burta from Ginyu force who was said to be the fastest UNTIL Goku who had higher battle power came. How do you think Freeza became faster than Dyspo? Cause his overall power increased after the power up. None of this is headcannon but ACTUAL facts. Dyspo's strength was displayed when his speed was taken away. He even hurt Gohan with a blow.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

No, it's simply headcanon to think that Dyspo had increased his strength when he only ever was directly stated to have increased his speed. The entire point of the cage was to hamper Dyspo's speed.

The Flash is allowed to hit above his strength class through speed, why not Dyspo? Let me guess....... "because that's not how it works in DB" would be your rebuttal. That's not a valid argument because we've never had a situation where a character so vastly eclipses other characters through speed, so there's no precedent. And funny you bring up Hit and Ultra Instinct Goku....... because those are also instances where the actual manner in which blows are delivered were what were highlighted, and not simply the strength of the characters dishing them out. Hit was using light strikes and then instantly disabled Vegeta with a heavy strike, and Ultra Instinct Goku had to rely on charging up a Kamehameha because his attacks were too soft.

And no one noted Dyspo's blows were soft. Even without his speed he was able to "brawl" with Gohan who "rivaled" Blue Goku in power. That is strength feat alone cause If Dyspo's power up only increases his speed then he would have no power behind his blows. Look at Burta from Ginyu force who was said to be the fastest UNTIL Goku who had higher battle power came. How do you think Freeza became faster than Dyspo? Cause his overall power increased after the power up. None of this is headcannon but ACTUAL facts. Dyspo's strength was displayed when his speed was taken away. He even hurt Gohan with a blow.

Dyspo did not have his speed removed. He was still using his speed for throwing punches and blocking attacks with a lot of momentum, he just couldn't use it to its fullest extant for hit-and-run tactics because his area was limited.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What's the point of using UI Goku in this comparison?

He is able to deflect enemy blows without having to think, it is as if his body acted alone and this is something that gives an immense advantage in combat. To cause damage or exchange blows with the enemy, obviously he must have the power to do so.

But in the case of Dyspo he was basically cornering Freeza because of his speed and so almost eliminated him. Not because he was strong, but because he was fast and Freeza was unable to keep up with the enemy.
It was clearly said that Dyspo got even faster, nothing was quoted about his power having increased.

It does not make sense to use the small change of punches between Goku and Jiren at the beginning of EP 122 as a parameter. That was clearly a warm-up and both Goku and Jiren were just talking.
After that, Jiren dominated SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta together easily. At this point, there is also no quote that reinforces the fact that Jiren was using less power than before. This only happened in the fight against Vegeta alone.

Vegeta fought Jiren worse than Goku? He managed to do something that Hitto needed a whole fight to do (and that Goku could not even watch Jiren face Vegeta).
Jiren clearly was annoyed with Vegeta's teasing on EP 122 and so he tried to finish it quickly.
But, Vegeta was able to STOP the attack of Jiren before reaching the edge of the arena, while Goku needed to use the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena and was almost eliminated. There's no sense in using this to say that Vegeta is weaker.

Yes it is cause Goku wasn't damaged from the "it's over" finishing move attack unlike Vegeta who struggled with it and was grasping for air. Big difference in power.
UI Goku was brought up cause despite his specific skill set, STILL needs power to compete. It's the same with Dyspo, as it was shown when he punched Golden Freeza in the face.
This is a rule in Dragonball, overall ki increases overall power and you need ALL to compete on the level of your opponent.

The difference is that Jiren's Ki sphere did not explode in Goku, just dragged him around the arena. He needed to use the Kaioken to hold on.

The Jiren's Ki sphere used in Vegeta was much larger (covering almost his entire body), and Vegeta had to intercept only with his strength (and so it exploded and he took damage).

Anyway, Goku is not superior to Vegeta because of this, they are different situations

Dyspo never needed power to face Hitto and Goku SSG. He did this only with his speed (even caused damage to opponents because of this).
Against Golden Freeza is the same thing, by increasing his speed, Dyspo simply was able to press and almost eliminate it.

No, Goku used x20 during the whole first round with Jiren without mentioning the level and the aura wasn't super big, neither have anything to do with the level of Kaioken he's using. I wasn't referring to 110 UI as the level Kafla had surpassed, I was referring to 115 UI, something that had just happened. Also, again, whole theme of the fight.

Base Goku > SS2 Caulifla (because of skill)
SS2 Caulifla (improved) > Base Goku
SS2 Goku > SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale > SS2 Goku
SS3 Goku > SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale
SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale > SS2 Goku (though I think Goku using SS3 here would've worked better)
SSG Goku > SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale
Kafla > SSG Goku
SSB Goku > Kafla
SS1 Kafla > SSB Goku
SSB KKx20 Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS1 Kafla (full power) > SSB KKx20 Goku
UIO Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS2 Kafla > UIO Goku
UIO Goku (improved) > SS2 Kafla

Whenever Goku speaks only "Kaioken" without specifying the level, he is using the normal Kaioken. But if he's using Kaioken on a higher level, he's always going to get the quote from some character specifying that level or Goku himself will say that. In the fight against Jiren, Goku did not specify the level of the technique, but it was said by Beerus and Whis that Goku was using the Kaioken x20.

In EP 123, Goku did not specify the level of the Kaioken, but Beerus again stated that he was using all the forces he possessed, indicating that he was also using the Kaioken x20. If Goku only speaks "Kaioken" and does not have any external quotation specified the level used, then it is only the normal Kaioken

And if Piccolo was saying that Kefla has surpassed the level that Goku had "not long ago", this refers to the most recent level used in EP 115 and not the UI of EP 110. In that case, it would make sense that Whis explanation about Genkidama was not referring to power, but to the fact that Kefla and Genkidama forced Goku to activate the UI

How convenient that your interpretation means that there's no way to possibly prove otherwise, even when Goku using a higher level of Kaioken makes logical sense and him using lower levels creates plotholes and inconsistencies when characters such as Kafla and Fused Zamasu look weak, when we later see those characters performing feats WAY outside of the abilities of KKx2.

The most recent level used by Goku that Piccolo could've been referring to is Ultra Instinct when he transformed against SS1 Kafla. That is the level that SS2 Kafla surpassed. SS2 Kafla is the level that Piccolo hoped UI Goku would be able to grow beyond, which he did by the end of the fight.

Goku was tired, this was said several times during the fight. Kuririn and the others were concerned only with Goku activating SSB (a transformation that consumes a good amount of energy). So if using SSB was already risky, could Goku use Kaioken at its maximum level?
Even after using the Kaioken against Kefla, Beerus said he could only use a few more attacks. That's why Kefla was able to defeat him

In Merged Zamasu's case, Goku's Kamehameha had caused him harm, and he could not even use his arm anymore. So Goku was able to hit him

The most recent level of power used by Goku against Kefla was the SSB KK and not the UI against Jiren

[Miracles]

Dyspo did not have his speed removed. He was still using his speed for throwing punches and blocking attacks with a lot of momentum, he just couldn't use it to its fullest extant for hit-and-run tactics because his area was limited.

Belmound: "If he uses Maximum light-speed mode in that cage of light, he'll hit the bars and hurt himself."

Dyspo was stopped from using his speed to dodge attacks in order to straight out "brawl." Meaning He would have to defeat Gohan in a FIST fight only with just blocking and punching/kicks.
This ALONE is a strength feat against Gohan who "rivaled" Blue Goku.

The difference is that Jiren's Ki sphere did not explode in Goku, just dragged him around the arena. He needed to use the Kaioken to hold on.

The Jiren's Ki sphere used in Vegeta was much larger (covering almost his entire body), and Vegeta had to intercept only with his strength (and so it exploded and he took damage).

Anyway, Goku is not superior to Vegeta because of this, they are different situations

Dyspo never needed power to face Hitto and Goku SSG. He did this only with his speed (even caused damage to opponents because of this).
Against Golden Freeza is the same thing, by increasing his speed, Dyspo simply was able to press and almost eliminate it.

Dyspo vs Gohan PROVES Dyspo's strength cause there was no speed for him to propel himself or dodge. He could only use raw strength in a fistfight.
Also, your Jiren " ki sphere" idea is headcannon. Vegeta already stated that Jiren wasn't as strong against him like he was against Goku. And this is true since Goku also took the glare attack which doubles what Vegeta took and still had more than enough power to fire up a Genki Dama. Goku has always been stronger than Vegeta in this tournament.

[Low Tone G]

Is this article legit and factual? I've missed something, because I think that it contains some real nonsense.
https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-gods ... strongest/

[TheSaiyanGod]

The difference is that Jiren's Ki sphere did not explode in Goku, just dragged him around the arena. He needed to use the Kaioken to hold on.

The Jiren's Ki sphere used in Vegeta was much larger (covering almost his entire body), and Vegeta had to intercept only with his strength (and so it exploded and he took damage).

Anyway, Goku is not superior to Vegeta because of this, they are different situations

Dyspo never needed power to face Hitto and Goku SSG. He did this only with his speed (even caused damage to opponents because of this).
Against Golden Freeza is the same thing, by increasing his speed, Dyspo simply was able to press and almost eliminate it.

Dyspo vs Gohan PROVES Dyspo's strength cause there was no speed for him to propel himself or dodge. He could only use raw strength in a fistfight.
Also, your Jiren " ki sphere" idea is headcannon. Vegeta already stated that Jiren wasn't as strong against him like he was against Goku. And this is true since Goku also took the glare attack which doubles what Vegeta took and still had more than enough power to fire up a Genki Dama. Goku has always been stronger than Vegeta this tournament.

In fact, the fight between Dyspo and Gohan shows that Dyspo's brute strength is not so great, and he only manages to defeat the enemies because of his speed.

If this "aura" that he emanates increased his strength, why during the fight against Gohan, Dyspo simply deactivated that aura?
For at that moment he could not use his speed

You're just picking up Vegeta's talk on EP 122 at one point, and using it for every other moment in the fight between Vegeta and Jiren as if Jiren was always using less power than in the fight against Goku.
But this only happened in a moment, when vegeta faced him alone.
And when Vegeta himself said that to Jiren, Jiren quickly counterattacks and dominates Vegeta, showing that he was using the same power as before.

And over Jiren's Ki sphere, it clearly did not explode when it was used against Goku, and clearly was not as large as the sphere used in Vegeta.
Using this as an argument does not prove that Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

In fact, he actually was stronger than Vegeta throughout the tournament, but only with the Kaioken and UI. Just with SSB, both are on the same level (maybe Vegeta is stronger with SSB, after all it was said that he awakened a power within him by his pride when he used the Final Flash)

[Miracles]

In fact, the fight between Dyspo and Gohan shows that Dyspo's brute strength is not so great, and he only manages to defeat the enemies because of his speed.

If this "aura" that he emanates increased his strength, why during the fight against Gohan, Dyspo simply deactivated that aura?
For at that moment he could not use his speed

You're just picking up Vegeta's talk on EP 122 at one point, and using it for every other moment in the fight between Vegeta and Jiren as if Jiren was always using less power than in the fight against Goku.
But this only happened in a moment, when vegeta faced him alone.
And when Vegeta himself said that to Jiren, Jiren quickly counterattacks and dominates Vegeta,showing that he was using the same power as before.

And over Jiren's Ki sphere, it clearly did not explode when it was used against Goku, and clearly was not as large as the sphere used in Vegeta.
Using this as an argument does not prove that Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

In fact, he actually was stronger than Vegeta throughout the tournament, but only with the Kaioken and UI. Just with SSB, both are on the same level (maybe Vegeta is stronger with SSB, after all it was said that he awakened a power within him by his pride when he used the Final Flash)

Jiren wasn't fighting as strong against a fatigued Goku, who was weaker than the previous Goku he fought. This proves Vegeta meant back then against Blue/KK Goku, who took more attacks from Jiren before unlike Vegeta. Goku calling this fight against Jiren "ROUND 2!" confirms Vegeta's statement all the more that he meant Jiren and Goku's first bout.

Dyspo didn't deactivate the aura, Gohan knocked him outta of it. Yet before the aura left, Dyspo was still able to overpower Gohan and hit him onto the bars with his strength ALONE.
I'm sorry there is no getting around this. Dyspo PROVED that he is not just speed but strength as well when brawling with Gohan.

[Bullza]

Is this article legit and factual? I've missed something, because I think that it contains some real nonsense.
https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-gods ... strongest/

Not really no. It's right in a lot of places I suppose but there's certainly no way that Goku Black and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus.

Chronoa above Super Saiyan God Goku? I doubt that.

It says Champa is the second strongest God of Destruction but nothing has ever said that. Going by the manga it would seem pretty evident that Beerus and Quitela were the two strongest.

[Lord Frieza]

Is this article legit and factual? I've missed something, because I think that it contains some real nonsense.
https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-gods ... strongest/

Not really no. It's right in a lot of places I suppose but there's certainly no way that Goku Black and Zamasu are stronger than Beerus.

Chronoa above Super Saiyan God Goku? I doubt that.

It says Champa is the second strongest God of Destruction but nothing has ever said that. Going by the manga it would seem pretty evident that Beerus and Quitela were the two strongest.

And Belmod, he was able to affect all the god with his power, not some gimmick like Rumsshi, and when the dust settled he didn't have a scratch on him. All pretty good signs he's powerful, also smarter then most of the others by not just throwing himself into the fight like a idiot.

I see it as Beerus is the most Skilled Fighter, Quitela is the physically strongest and Belmod is the most cunning and maybe the greatest power in terms of ki.

[Pannaliciour]

Is this article legit and factual? I've missed something, because I think that it contains some real nonsense.
https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-gods ... strongest/

Lol Shenron couldn't even kill Nappa and Vegeta. Thats a GODdam limiet.

[Hugo Boss]

I have clear visual proof. Dyspo swatting away Golden Freeza's punch when he couldn't handle his physical strength before SHOWS Dyspo's overall power increased.
It had nothing to do with Dyspo's attitude being the reason why he was able to block it. What?

You guys are interpreting everything based on singular statements. We know Jiren is fast but no one in the crowd mentions it. It states how strong he always is. That doesn't mean he doesn't have speed.
It's the same with Dyspo. Unless you can show me the basic Dragonball rule being broken that power ups don't increase overall power?

Hit powers up and doesn’t increase his powerlevel. Also, I don’t see the need to abide to fanmade rules. We have a clear case of a character only increasing his speed and that alone seems enough to justify his performance. Once his movements are restricted he is no big deal to Gohan.

Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist and pretending skill can override raw power. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

You missed the part where Gohan says he will try to lure Dyspo in his trap. And I never said it was an one sided fight, only that Gohan could manage something if they were in equal conditions. It would be one sided if Dyspo was running free. That’s why Gohan’s elimination wasn’t as undermine as it looked on paper.

Power-ups, despite the name, don’t always increase “powerlevel”. That is kind of a generalization. In Hit’s case, his yelling and aura burst only increased the length of “time-skip”. Not once Goku said his attacks were more powerful in that episode, unless the official subs are incredibly off.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Dyspo didn't deactivate the aura, Gohan knocked him outta of it. Yet before the aura left, Dyspo was still able to overpower Gohan and hit him onto the bars with his strength ALONE.
I'm sorry there is no getting around this. Dyspo PROVED that he is not just speed but strength as well when brawling with Gohan.

I'm sorry, there's no getting around this. The (lack of) statements PROVED that only his speed was highlighted.

You not only have yet to provide factual in-show statements about Dyspo having increased his strength, but have also failed to convince anyone who has been opposing you why your interpretations are somehow more valid than ours. And all the people involved in this particular debate have been against you and brought up the same factual evidence that you yourself have failed to provide to factually support your side.

Based on majority ruling and the objective evidence presented, your argument doesn't have as solid a foundation as ours.