Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?

Wonderful joke, let's see how well this ages after

[GodVegetto91]

So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?

Wonderful joke, let's see how well this ages after

Just ignore him. This guy is baiting.

[FishermanJohnWest]

So, how strong was Prime Goat Moro? we know Moro7-3 is above Broly, comfortably IMO because Goku was pretty sure about it, but where does the goat stands before that? Was he equal to Broly? below him?

And what do you guys think about his power up? could crappy 7-3, who is not remarkably strong on his own, be the reason Moro why reached that NAMBA 1 spot? because he seems like an ant compared to the power levels the arc was having at that time, and Moro did get a considerable boost.

Or was the boost caused by old Moro + Prime Moro + whatever 7-3 contributed?

You DON’T.. KNOW these things. These are 100% headcanon. And you know it.

There is actually far more evidence for Broly still being above the likes of Jiren, Prime Moro, Moro 73, and even Moro Merus, Merus, and UI Goku!

So why make these comments so certainly? Could it be that you are trolling by any chance?!

Actually you seem to be the troll and not just based on this malicious and disrespectful post of yours

Anyway:

Spoiler:

Have a good read on this thread. Search for tough, there are 47 entries.

Already address this with the post before hand

tʌf/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: tough; comparative adjective: tougher; superlative adjective: toughest

1.
(of a substance or object) strong enough to withstand adverse conditions or rough handling.

strong
/strɒŋ/

adjective: strong; comparative adjective: stronger; superlative adjective: strongest

1.
having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks.

Tough and Strong are not the same

Let's go further, Goku address Moro toughness beforehand



And even 18 made comments on it



In DBS chapter 65, they separate tough from power

UI get sturdier



Moro body getting Tougher


Goku body can only withstand this power when it's honed



It's clear as day, tough isn't the same as power here[/spoiler]

Evidence is clear as day, DBS isn't referring tough as strong, if they wanted to say strong, they would say it

[FishermanJohnWest]

Goku only assumes Broly is stronger, you therefore conclude that means Broly is equal to Beerus. All based off non factual guesswork. That's only your headcanon.

No, Goku concludes he is equaled when he is believing he is probably stronger. Just how V jump places Vegito = to Beerus but the main series says he is perhaps stronger then Beerus. You can't be questionable above someone if you aren't even = to them.

Incorrect. Goku stated he "couldn't sense the gods." Therefore he can't tell how strong in comparison.

More nonsense

Beerus fighting by himself or when all the gods are fighting each other does not take away from the fact that Goku concluded that the god battle itself was incomprehensible. He said this to Zeno's when the whole fight was complete. Actually read the entire story, instead of running off with parts of it, that fit your narrative.

More nonsense again, the timing of the statement suggest Goku couldn't keep up when ALL OF THEM are fighting together, he even said so himself that he can't keep up ANYMORE. So no, he kept up when Beerus is fighting by himself, but couldn't when everyone was fighting all at once against each other.

Going further, Zeno had the same problems

Couldn't see when all of them are fighting at once


yet was able to see Beerus by himself fight dodged multiple GoDs at the same time


Don't lecture anyone changing or shifting the narrative superstar, you flat out just ignored the entirety of chapter 58 to suit your bullshit

You didn't refute Goku, Roshi, Saganbo and Caulifla using the word "tough"to define fighting power. You ignored it cause it down right shows Moro is stronger than Broly.

Let's address Caulifa, she called Frieza tough after surviving her attack lol proving that she is talking about Frieza endurance and resilience. Well done for cutting out parts of the fight my desperate friend




Tough can be exchange for the difficulty of a battle. Roshi can be exchange for power, Goku statement makes no sense if referring to power cause Merus > Moro etc

I went over this many times

[FishermanJohnWest]

Anyways this is my last post for the subject, Broly will be => Beerus, that won't change at all.

If you think otherwise then I bet my name on this server on it, taking all bets against anyone who thinks differently. If you win the bet, you can change my name and avatar, if I win, I can change your name

[FishermanJohnWest]

Anyways this is my last post for the subject, Broly will be => Beerus, that won't change at all.

If you think otherwise then I bet my name on this server on it, taking all bets against anyone who thinks differently. If you win the bet, you can change my name and avatar, if I win, I can change your name

Going further, I changed my opinion on DBS rubbish

From now on

Anytime a statement is made about someone being the strongest or toughest or mightiest or greatest or fearsome adversary etc they don't mean shit in Dragon ball super

Also statements like Vegito having power that surpasses the Gods, or Moro power surpassing the gods etc are all rubbish and hyped up nonsense

Furthermore, statements like Belmod saying no one can beat Jiren regardless who he is fighting Or Gowasu saying he never encountered a light like Zamasu or Frieza saying no being alive can beat SSJ Broly or Merus saying UI Goku won't lose to anyone. They are all shitty creditless statements.

In the end, If you ain't compared to directly to Beerus or Whis or GP, either through fighting or statements, then your garbage in DBS. Anything said about you is creditless

[Miracles]

Fans can not make up their own rules. Dragonball is already under rooted commands. The authority himself: Toriyama; that presides over all, confirms the current enemy is the "strongest every time."" He went even further, saying: there is "no way" to take a step back. And he will not let people tell him the present enemy is weaker than the last. Broly is weaker than Moro by this eternal fact alone. Thus says Toriyama.

To add more dirt on the burial, Broly never had a chance since Goku/Vegeta are the only ones who "will become Beerus's "strongest rivals." Not Broly. Since both decrees are cemented facts with no guess words attached. Like probably, maybe or questions that are subject to change. No sir, just outright, carved in stone, unequivocal statements that exclusively set the standards.

So anyone who goes against these absolute truths is automatically wrong.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Fans can not make up their own rules. Dragonball is already under rooted commands. The authority himself: Toriyama; that presides over all, confirms the current enemy is the "strongest every time."" He went even further, saying: there is "no way" to take a step back. And he will not let people tell him the present enemy is weaker than the last. Broly is weaker than Moro by this eternal fact alone. Thus says Toriyama.

To add more dirt on the burial, Broly never had a chance since Goku/Vegeta are the only ones who "will become Beerus's "strongest rivals." Not Broly. Since both decrees are cemented facts with no guess words attached. Like probably, maybe or questions that are subject to change. No sir, just outright, carved in stone, unequivocal statements that exclusively set the standards.

So anyone who goes against these absolute truths is automatically wrong.

Wanna bet on that? I'll bet my name your going to be wrong, if I win, you change your name too whatever I want, if you win, you can change my name too whatever you want, deal?

[GodVegetto91]

I like where this is going guys, keep it up!

Overhyped statements such as “no being alive can take SSJ1 Broly”, or “UI Goku won’t fall to anyone.” Or Goku saying that Moro 73 is the toughest being he has ever come across. are always unreliable and will always be falsified later down the road! (Unless such statements were to be made about the Grand Priest and the Omni-King’s) and even that is possibly only temporary!

So what do we need?

We need actual comparisons of new villains/stronger heroes being compared directly to Lord Beerus at the very least! And preferably an actual death math to prove it out!

All of this could have been avoided if the damn writers actually BOTHERED to make sure there’s no room for confusion by not having contradictory information.

You could say that they left in evidence for both arguments.. (I don’t know wether they are really THAT bad of writers... Being so stupendously careless that they’re product would result in a negation with so much contradictory information because they just don’t think things through).... Or.. They are actually doing this on purpose to troll us and to CAUSE mass confusion and endless debates.

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our collective mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

I mean, you can’t tell me that the writers are THIS bad at writing.. That you have a product FULL of contradictory information!

[Thani]

Welcome do Dragon Ball, I guess.

[SupremeKai25]

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

Or, and this is more likely, the vast majority of people don't actually care about power levels, so Toei does not care about being consistent with them. From what I've seen and heard, the power levels community is a niche group, and it's more of a Western thing.

I never understood why it's such a big thing to compare power levels, I mean, they don't make a good and interesting character, and they often fluctuate as the story progresses... just my two cents.

[GodVegetto91]

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

Or, and this is more likely, the vast majority of people don't actually care about power levels, so Toei does not care about being consistent with them. From what I've seen and heard, the power levels community is a niche group, and it's more of a Western thing.

I never understood why it's such a big thing to compare power levels, I mean, they don't make a good and interesting character, and they often fluctuate as the story progresses... just my two cents.

Maybe you’re right. I’m just theorizing here ofcourse. It’s most likely just that a very small group of people like ourselves are actually more interested in consistency. And the writers aren’t preoccupied with perfection but just in making a fun kids show.

[SupremeKai25]

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

Or, and this is more likely, the vast majority of people don't actually care about power levels, so Toei does not care about being consistent with them. From what I've seen and heard, the power levels community is a niche group, and it's more of a Western thing.

I never understood why it's such a big thing to compare power levels, I mean, they don't make a good and interesting character, and they often fluctuate as the story progresses... just my two cents.

Maybe you’re right. I’m just theorizing here.m ofcourse. It’s most likely that a very small group of people like ourselves are actually more interested in consistency. And the writers aren’t preoccupied with perfection but just make a fun kids show.

Not saying it's wrong to talk about power levels, just giving a possible explanation as for why power levels are often contradictory. I don't think I've ever had an IRL power level discussion with my friends who watch Dragon Ball, it seems more of an internet thing to do. But, of course, this is all subjective.

[DestructoDisc]

I like where this is going guys, keep it up!

Overhyped statements such as “no being alive can take SSJ1 Broly”, or “UI Goku won’t fall to anyone.” Or Goku saying that Moro 73 is the toughest being he has ever come across. are always unreliable and will always be falsified later down the road! (Unless such statements were to be made about the Grand Priest and the Omni-King’s) and even that is possibly only temporary!

So what do we need?

We need actual comparisons of new villains/stronger heroes being compared directly to Lord Beerus at the very least! And preferably an actual death math to prove it out!

All of this could have been avoided if the damn writers actually BOTHERED to make sure there’s no room for confusion by not having contradictory information.

You could say that they left in evidence for both arguments.. (I don’t know wether they are really THAT bad of writers... Being so stupendously careless that they’re product would result in a negation with so much contradictory information because they just don’t think things through).... Or.. They are actually doing this on purpose to troll us and to CAUSE mass confusion and endless debates.

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our collective mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

I mean, you can’t tell me that the writers are THIS bad at writing.. That you have a product FULL of contradictory information!

Toei just wants to make the characters look cool so they can sell more toys of them. They don't care about consistency. Selling merch is their number priority, making a good story is second when it comes to Super.

[GodVegetto91]

Or, and this is more likely, the vast majority of people don't actually care about power levels, so Toei does not care about being consistent with them. From what I've seen and heard, the power levels community is a niche group, and it's more of a Western thing.

I never understood why it's such a big thing to compare power levels, I mean, they don't make a good and interesting character, and they often fluctuate as the story progresses... just my two cents.

Maybe you’re right. I’m just theorizing here.m ofcourse. It’s most likely that a very small group of people like ourselves are actually more interested in consistency. And the writers aren’t preoccupied with perfection but just make a fun kids show.

Not saying it's wrong to talk about power levels, just giving a possible explanation as for why power levels are often contradictory. I don't think I've ever had an IRL power level discussion with my friends who watch Dragon Ball, it seems more of an internet thing to do. But, of course, this is all subjective.

I mean we’re not talking specifically about powerlevels more so than powerscaling..

Where if character C is stronger than character B, and character B is stronger than character A, then it is 100% certainly the case that character C is stronger than character A! It must be so!

(This is a very simple and easy DEDUCTIVE process.)

And fans expect the writers to be consistent with that.

[GodVegetto91]

I like where this is going guys, keep it up!

Overhyped statements such as “no being alive can take SSJ1 Broly”, or “UI Goku won’t fall to anyone.” Or Goku saying that Moro 73 is the toughest being he has ever come across. are always unreliable and will always be falsified later down the road! (Unless such statements were to be made about the Grand Priest and the Omni-King’s) and even that is possibly only temporary!

So what do we need?

We need actual comparisons of new villains/stronger heroes being compared directly to Lord Beerus at the very least! And preferably an actual death math to prove it out!

All of this could have been avoided if the damn writers actually BOTHERED to make sure there’s no room for confusion by not having contradictory information.

You could say that they left in evidence for both arguments.. (I don’t know wether they are really THAT bad of writers... Being so stupendously careless that they’re product would result in a negation with so much contradictory information because they just don’t think things through).... Or.. They are actually doing this on purpose to troll us and to CAUSE mass confusion and endless debates.

Sometimes I’m wondering wether or not Toei is being influenced by third parties with the motive of actually CREATING/CAUSING mass debates on forums and what not, directly resulting into a rise in our collective mental evolution along with creating more opportunity for merchandise sales and what not (i.e. making more money, because the product is being heavily discussed on the internet.)

I mean, you can’t tell me that the writers are THIS bad at writing.. That you have a product FULL of contradictory information!

Toei just wants to make the characters look cool so they can sell more toys of them. They don't care about consistency. Selling merch is their number priority, making a good story is second when it comes to Super.

If I were in charge, I wouldn’t care about money! A job is something you do with passion, or otherwise don’t do it at all! There are enough people waiting in line to take over as writers of the franchise they actually LOVE. Money is just a fortunate byproduct for me. Not the main goal.

[Hugo Boss]

To be honest, I don’t think powerscalling is the problem. This is a typical story aimed to young men, it’s about a character that is always looking for a greater challenge and never moves on from this objective. There are stories that are supposed to target a more demanding audience. Dragon Ball is nothing like that. If you are a (very) demanding fan, perhaps Dragon Ball is just not for you.

[BWri]

Spoiler:

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

These are all after the 2 months of intense training for Moro's invasion and manga only.

Gohan - I'm thinking he reached the strength of the Super Saiyan Blues from the previous arc. Not Blue Evolution, but SSB. Rage boosted might surpass SSBE Vegeta from ToP though. This is a low ball. I'm low-balling Kefla to being only marginally stronger than Kale at her peak and not Kale x Caulifla.

Piccolo - Easily above Goku's current SSJ3. He would likely defeat SSG Goku from BoG and put up a decent fight with SSB Goku from RoF though he would lose. This is a lowball. Based on some of his feats later, it could be argued that he's above #17 who I am putting at ToP bottom shelf SSB, but I think Gohan provided Piccolo enough coverage for him to reasonably survive at a lower power level vs. Moro, 7-3 and Saganbo. I just think Piccolo would have to at least be as strong as a current SSJ3 to survive, do as well as he did, and make the claims he's made against Moro.

Roshi - Proto-UI grants him a little bit of a hack, but other than that it's difficult to scale Roshi. I think he's now on the same level as the other Earthlings instead of far behind them. Yamcha still claims to be the 3rd strongest Earthling, but he never saw Roshi's performances in the ToP or against Frieza's army. All things considered, as far as pure strength goes in the manga, I think Roshi is still behind his students and Tien. His techniques just make up the difference.

Krillin - I honestly think he is the strongest human now, as much as I still believe that makes no sense. I'll just go with the premise that he trains with #18. Anime puts him on par with her, but he never gets to do much in the manga. He beats Yunba, but Yunba is difficult to scale since he only fights Krillin. Yunba was considerably boosted by Moro's magic. I think all the Earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek.

Tien - Did relatively well against a Metalman boosted by Moro's magic. The fact that he wasn't immediately overpowered says something. Ultimately, his opponent had an easy weakness to exploit so its difficult to place Tien.

Chiaotzu - No clue where to place him. I think all the earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek including Chiaotzu.

Yamcha - In terms of pure strength, I think he is 3rd strongest Earthling, but when skill and technique are included, I think Roshi is better. Above Freeza 3 and below Final Form Freeza from Namek is where I put all the Earthlings (manga) at this point. The anime has each of them significantly stronger such as Krillin being on par with #18.

#17 - He seems to have gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. He effortlessly dealt with a guy that gave Gohan some trouble even after 2 months of training and Piccolo's assistance. I'd put him at ToP SSB level. Not as strong as Goku and Vegeta from that arc, more like the lowest tier SSB you could be during the ToP. #17 does bow out of the fight with Saganbo to get some rest before Gohan and Piccolo which may imply that Piccolo is stronger, but I think #17 just had a grueling offscreen fight.

#18 - Other than Piccolo #18 seems to have made the biggest strength gains. Her and #17 are fighting at the same level it seems like. She could be equal to him or close. For her to be keeping up with his combination attacks and providing sufficient power for them both to hurt Moro even at the level that they did means she has to be reasonably close to #17;s level. Not to mention, she took the same attacks that he did. Since #17 has always had an edge in strength compared to her, I believe she is SSJ3 level, same as #17 has during the ToP.

Great assessment. I pretty much agree with everything. It's nice to see that all the characters got stronger, albeit of course still outclassed by a lot of stuff in the grand scheme of things. Still, enough to impress Moro, which says something.
My only objection would be that the earthlings should be a little higher, based on the fact that early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta needed at least SSJ to keep up with random prisoners. The earthlings fared well against Yunba, Shimorekka etc.. I'd place them at early SSJ levels (lowball).

Nice observation! That was a big oversight on my part. My instinct is usually to place the humans much higher (stronger than Final Form Frieza from Namek), so I lowball them drastically to compensate but you bring up a fantastic point.

[dragonball0900]

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

1. Gohan is the strongest. He is far superior to the strength he had at the ToP, and at that time he was already close to ToP Blue level.

2. Piccolo is the second strongest, since he lasted very well against Saganbo and Moro, plus Goku said his strength was barely recognizable.

3. Android 17 is next. He should be stronger than his ToP level, but not enough to reach Gohan and Piccolo. He was easily one shooted or pushed aside by Saganbo and Moro in their fights, while Piccolo and Gohan kept going.

4. Android 18 should be close to 17's level. They both performed the same feats, none of them surpassing each other. I will still have 18 somewhere below 17, but the gap should not be high.

5. Krillin is the strongest earthling, but would be one shot material for a Base Saiyan.

6. Tien is next, given his already known superiority to the rest.

7. Yamcha said he was the third strongest earthling, which means he should be in this place.

8. and 9. I'm not sure who is stronger between Chiaotzu and Roshi, but I'll give it to Chiaotzu since Roshi didn't have any strength feats in the manga other than the technique similar to UI he uses.

[Hugo Boss]

Isn’t Roshi stronger than Krillin when he uses that false ultra instinct?