Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Uhm No.. That’s not how power progression works in Dragon Ball. Until there is evidence revealing otherwise, (and there isn’t any) the next enemy is always stronger than the last. Beerus is the only exception to that rule, since he is a moving goal post for Goku to chase after. So the order goes simply: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Completely untrue. Android 19 and 20 were arguably weaker than Frieza. Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura and Babidi were weaker than Cell. Botamo, Frost, Magetta and Cabba were weaker than Golden Frieza, Hit was physically weaker than Golden Frieza. Goku Black was overall inferior to Hit and Zamasu weaker than Hit and Golden Frieza by a long shot.

The Trio De Danger was weaker than Fused Zamasu, as was Toppo. Koichiarator and Agnilasa were weaker than Kefla. Seven Three and Saganbo were weaker than Broly.

And many other examples. There is no rule about this, there is no "order".

Whoever is stronger out of Jiren and Broly is still entirely up in the air due to not knowing how Gogeta and Ultra Instinct compare.

Moro is clearly far behind the two with no statements or feats to back him up. He's stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign which means he's stronger than Base Jiren and that's about it.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Beerus is still the measuring stick. I knew this already but the latest chapter is hammering this home. He's nonplussed by Goku's fight with Moro, nonplussed by UI Goku really.

Broly was said to be maybe stronger than Beerus while Jiren definitely was stronger than Belmod without his Limit Breaker.

There was also that old promotional materials that claimed Ultra Instinct Goku was also maybe stronger than Beerus which makes Jiren around that same ballpark.

Moro meanwhile has nothing of the sort. They've never said he was stronger than Jiren or Broly or Beerus and ever said he was the strongest so far.

They also never made out Ultra Instinct Goku is any real stronger than he was last time either, just in control of it this time. Unlike Moro, Jiren wasn't entirely useless against Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

The statements were nothing more than guesses that are open to contradiction by Toriyama's eternal plot point. It doesn't matter if Toriyama stated them years ago he consistently KEEPS the plot point about the next enemy "ALWAYS" being stronger than the last. There is no getting around this fact. Truth's are eternal, they don't change and trying to use non truth's like "Probable's/maybe's" are overthrown by Toriyama's narrative. Moro is stronger than Broly, Beerus has yet to show up to the game, he will be stronger than all who was shown before him. Thus says Toriyama.

Like I said, you could still interpret these statements to fit with what you believe are "truths". Claiming that Toriyama went out of his way to have the characters make misleading and intentionally false statements in three separate arcs doesn't make sense. The general audience especially the young fans will take what is said in the story at face value. What Toriyama says in interviews is supplementary information that most people wouldn't read.

"Probably" does not fit in with "ALWAYS." One is truth [Always] the other is uncertainty [maybe/probably]. They can not coincide.

It's either "Beerus is stronger than because he's a future goal' or "Freeza is stronger because antagonists are always stronger than the last ones." Toriyama is prone to contradicting himself (which is fine) but you literally can't have both lines be true.

You missed it where Toriyama stated Beerus is the strongest in universe 7. That includes over Freeza. So he is saving the STRONGEST for later which coincides with his next enemy "always" strongest narrative.

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

"Probably stronger" is nothing more than guess work. So now you assume that Broly is at least as strong as Beerus based off that assumption. That's circular headcanon reasoning.

So Goku is assuming ? How is he assuming lmfao go ahead and prove that. I bet you won't and your going to rely on that rubbish oracle fish statement and play dumb again

Downplay the statement as much as you want, it's not changing cause you want it too

Which is false, since Moro is stronger than Broly who is weaker than Beerus due to Oracle fish prophecy of reserving Beerus later as the "strongest" opponent. You can keep contradicting the facts but it won't change reality.

Sorry, Oracle fish statement doesn't include characters that the writers haven't thought off yet. Oracle fish is moot for Broly thanks to Akira having Broly probably stronger then Beerus.

Did they contradict themselves with Vegito statement ? Nope, he justified it DESPITE BROLY being 2 arcs after (which throws the idea of those who scale to Beerus not being up scaled with him), and going further they are still saying Vegito, even after the Broly movie, is = Beerus.

You got nothing saying otherwise, so give up and wait for the series to prove the statement is wrong rather then your delusional head canon.

Goku didn't say Broly is stronger than Beerus.
Goku assumed because he used the hypothetical word "PROBABLY."

All of you are mixing up factual words with guess words. Trying to claim they are the same. This is where the disconnect is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As far as enemies fought go, I always felt it was better to just lump the 3 latest ones in the same general level much like all the Gods of Destruction.

Basically, base Jiren, Super Saiyan Full-Power Broly, and 7-3 Moro are all equal.

And then rank the powers beyond this as on the same general level as well. SSB Fusion, Hidden Power Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku are all equal.

[BWri]

Beerus is still the measuring stick. I knew this already but the latest chapter is hammering this home. He's nonplussed by Goku's fight with Moro, nonplussed by UI Goku really.

Broly was said to be maybe stronger than Beerus while Jiren definitely was stronger than Belmod without his Limit Breaker.

Right, it's the maybe part that I want to emphasize ... in an offhand comment no less, from an excited Goku who hadn't fought Beerus in what, years now? It's very flimsy.

Belmod isn't stronger than Beerus. That much is clear in the manga.

There was also that old promotional materials that claimed Ultra Instinct Goku was also maybe stronger than Beerus which makes Jiren around that same ballpark.

Promotional material also told us that the non-god SSJ forms were obsolete and mutated into SSB variants thanks to Saiyan Beyond God.

My point is, all these statements are wishy washy and seem to be discarded right after they are made. Mostly, they are there to hype up the current STRONGEST OF ALL TIME EVER, which as we know, is usually an extremely temporary position. I believe the Elder Kai or Gowasu compared Goku to Beerus when he fought Zamasu and Vegetto was also compared to Beerus. I think we all agree that Beerus is stronger than those characters so it stands to reason that unless a definitive statement is made or unless Beerus or Whis address this directly it's fair to put any wishy-washy hype statements in the same category as those made during the Trunks arc.

That said, I don't think it's illogical to conclude that Jiren and Broly are stronger, I just need something more concrete. There are too many loopholes for Beerus at the moment.

[GodVegetto91]

Uhm No.. That’s not how power progression works in Dragon Ball. Until there is evidence revealing otherwise, (and there isn’t any) the next enemy is always stronger than the last. Beerus is the only exception to that rule, since he is a moving goal post for Goku to chase after. So the order goes simply: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Completely untrue. Android 19 and 20 were arguably weaker than Frieza. Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura and Babidi were weaker than Cell. Botamo, Frost, Magetta and Cabba were weaker than Golden Frieza, Hit was physically weaker than Golden Frieza. Goku Black was overall inferior to Hit and Zamasu weaker than Hit and Golden Frieza by a long shot.

The Trio De Danger was weaker than Fused Zamasu, as was Toppo. Koichiarator and Agnilasa were weaker than Kefla. Seven Three and Saganbo were weaker than Broly.

And many other examples. There is no rule about this, there is no "order".

Whoever is stronger out of Jiren and Broly is still entirely up in the air due to not knowing how Gogeta and Ultra Instinct compare.

Moro is clearly far behind the two with no statements or feats to back him up. He's stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign which means he's stronger than Base Jiren and that's about it.

You have zero evidence for your claim that Jiren is stronger than Broly and the 2 versions of Moro. Broly has been stated (several times by promotional material) to be the absolute strongest enemy Goku and Co ever fought. (And he had already faced Jiren upon that point), Broly SSJ1 transformation was already enough to make Goku and Vegeta high tail it out of there, the SECOND he transformed, and immediately opted to FUSE. They were more than hesitant to fuse against Jiren earlier on. Then Broly got another Transformstion on top of that, forcing Gogeta to go BLUE. Then we have Prime Moro who had eaten entire planets with trillions of lifeforms on each, for well over 2 months straight. In the Manga at least, a post Yardrat Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a Full Power punch to Moro’s gut, and it didn’t even phase him! while earlier (2 arcs! earlier) against Jiren, a regular SSBE Vegeta (a much, MUCH weaker version of SSBE Vegeta) completely overwhelmed and stomped Jiren before he powered up and took Vegeta more serious.

Compare the feats:

A MUCH weaker Vegeta totally overwhelming Jiren.

A MUCH stronger Vegeta not even hurting Moro with a Full Power punch to the gut.

Now tell me who is stronger or weaker..

And this is only PRIME Moro.

We haven’t even begun to talk about Moro 73 yet!

[Koitsukai]

People do know that these aren't real characters and that their words are actually coming from the author, right?

What a character says isn't there just because they are ad libbing whatever they feel like. There's an out of universe reason why something is said.



Also, SSBE stomping Jiren? What?

[GodVegetto91]

People do know that these aren't real characters and that their words are actually coming from the author, right?

What a character says isn't there just because they are ad libbing whatever they feel like. There's an out of universe reason why something is said.



Also, SSBE stomping Jiren? What?

Here it is. You can clearly see Vegeta STOMPING Jiren.

Spoiler:

[Koitsukai]

People do know that these aren't real characters and that their words are actually coming from the author, right?

What a character says isn't there just because they are ad libbing whatever they feel like. There's an out of universe reason why something is said.



Also, SSBE stomping Jiren? What?

Here it is. You can clearly see Vegeta STOMPING Jiren.

Spoiler:

Wait, you call landing a couple of hits and not even putting the guy to the ground a STOMP?

[FishermanJohnWest]

The statements were nothing more than guesses that are open to contradiction by Toriyama's eternal plot point. It doesn't matter if Toriyama stated them years ago he consistently KEEPS the plot point about the next enemy "ALWAYS" being stronger than the last. There is no getting around this fact. Truth's are eternal, they don't change and trying to use non truth's like "Probable's/maybe's" are overthrown by Toriyama's narrative. Moro is stronger than Broly, Beerus has yet to show up to the game, he will be stronger than all who was shown before him. Thus says Toriyama.

Like I said, you could still interpret these statements to fit with what you believe are "truths". Claiming that Toriyama went out of his way to have the characters make misleading and intentionally false statements in three separate arcs doesn't make sense. The general audience especially the young fans will take what is said in the story at face value. What Toriyama says in interviews is supplementary information that most people wouldn't read.

"Probably" does not fit in with "ALWAYS." One is truth [Always] the other is uncertainty [maybe/probably]. They can not coincide.

You missed it where Toriyama stated Beerus is the strongest in universe 7. That includes over Freeza. So he is saving the STRONGEST for later which coincides with his next enemy "always" strongest narrative.

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

"Probably stronger" is nothing more than guess work. So now you assume that Broly is at least as strong as Beerus based off that assumption. That's circular headcanon reasoning.

So Goku is assuming ? How is he assuming lmfao go ahead and prove that. I bet you won't and your going to rely on that rubbish oracle fish statement and play dumb again

Downplay the statement as much as you want, it's not changing cause you want it too

Which is false, since Moro is stronger than Broly who is weaker than Beerus due to Oracle fish prophecy of reserving Beerus later as the "strongest" opponent. You can keep contradicting the facts but it won't change reality.

Sorry, Oracle fish statement doesn't include characters that the writers haven't thought off yet. Oracle fish is moot for Broly thanks to Akira having Broly probably stronger then Beerus.

Did they contradict themselves with Vegito statement ? Nope, he justified it DESPITE BROLY being 2 arcs after (which throws the idea of those who scale to Beerus not being up scaled with him), and going further they are still saying Vegito, even after the Broly movie, is = Beerus.

You got nothing saying otherwise, so give up and wait for the series to prove the statement is wrong rather then your delusional head canon.

Goku didn't say Broly is stronger than Beerus.
Goku assumed because he used the hypothetical word "PROBABLY."

All of you are mixing up factual words with guess words. Trying to claim they are the same. This is where the disconnect is.

Grasping on straws as usual

So is Goku assuming on who is stronger ? Despite Goku saw beerus go all out in the manga and anime ?

Goku saw what beerus done, he saw what broly done, he says broly isn't as strong, but probably stronger. While you keep focusing on the word probably and try to shit on It as much as you want, keep remember the next word after

Probably stronger, and go learn the. By Goku saying that proves broly is at least as strong as beerus, while probably stronger

You got nothing superstar, go give a better reason, vegito blue shits on your points completely

[Miracles]

Like I said, you could still interpret these statements to fit with what you believe are "truths". Claiming that Toriyama went out of his way to have the characters make misleading and intentionally false statements in three separate arcs doesn't make sense. The general audience especially the young fans will take what is said in the story at face value. What Toriyama says in interviews is supplementary information that most people wouldn't read.

"Probably" does not fit in with "ALWAYS." One is truth [Always] the other is uncertainty [maybe/probably]. They can not coincide.

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

So Goku is assuming ? How is he assuming lmfao go ahead and prove that. I bet you won't and your going to rely on that rubbish oracle fish statement and play dumb again

Downplay the statement as much as you want, it's not changing cause you want it too



Sorry, Oracle fish statement doesn't include characters that the writers haven't thought off yet. Oracle fish is moot for Broly thanks to Akira having Broly probably stronger then Beerus.

Did they contradict themselves with Vegito statement ? Nope, he justified it DESPITE BROLY being 2 arcs after (which throws the idea of those who scale to Beerus not being up scaled with him), and going further they are still saying Vegito, even after the Broly movie, is = Beerus.

You got nothing saying otherwise, so give up and wait for the series to prove the statement is wrong rather then your delusional head canon.

Goku didn't say Broly is stronger than Beerus.
Goku assumed because he used the hypothetical word "PROBABLY."

All of you are mixing up factual words with guess words. Trying to claim they are the same. This is where the disconnect is.

Grasping on straws as usual

So is Goku assuming on who is stronger ? Despite Goku saw beerus go all out in the manga and anime ?

Goku saw what beerus done, he saw what broly done, he says broly isn't as strong, but probably stronger. While you keep focusing on the word probably and try to shit on It as much as you want, keep remember the next word after

Probably stronger, and go learn the. By Goku saying that proves broly is at least as strong as beerus, while probably stronger

You got nothing superstar, go give a better reason, vegito blue shits on your points completely

If Goku wasn't speculating, he would of straight out said Broly is stronger than Beerus. Not be unsure with "probably."

[Thani]

As far as enemies fought go, I always felt it was better to just lump the 3 latest ones in the same general level much like all the Gods of Destruction.

Basically, base Jiren, Super Saiyan Full-Power Broly, and 7-3 Moro are all equal.

And then rank the powers beyond this as on the same general level as well. SSB Fusion, Hidden Power Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku are all equal.

Honestly? I like this.

[FishermanJohnWest]

There is no way jiren is stronger or as strong as Moro

Omen right now >>>> omen top, and Moro prime was > omen now and in the ToP, jiren needed his do just for omen Goku

Prime Moro > for jiren, and add 73 plus full power, Moro crushes jiren with ease

If beerus is = or > Moro, then that means no one in the top is beerus level, and broly is still the strongest for they fought

[BWri]

People do know that these aren't real characters and that their words are actually coming from the author, right?

That isn't always the case. Even DB has enough sophistication with its characters that they make statements and act on their own limited information.

What a character says isn't there just because they are ad libbing whatever they feel like. There's an out of universe reason why something is said.

Of course. Everyone here knows that. Everyone is deciphering the texts, aka author intention, to find out where each character is in terms of strength. The thing is, it's not as easy as "this character made this statement so its fact as the author intended" because there are feats then there are certain statements that leave wiggle room or are simply non-committal or offhand. So even a story as simple as DB can have enough complexity to allow something like character motivation and experience to play into the statements they make. Putting all that together gives you a more complete picture of what's going on. Of course, knowing about the production helps too.

I have a lot of respect for people here. I gave up on power scaling some time ago, but even at the height of the ridiculously inconsistent DBS writing which produced stuff like the two base theory, people here still used every bit of information they could get their hands on to make sense of it and produce theories in and out of universe to help explain things to themselves and others.

[The Undying]

I don't have much to contribute that other posters haven't already, but one detail I feel is being overlooked is the entire reason Jiren overcame UI Goku. When Whis said that Jiren started to counter Goku's attacks faster, he didn't imply that Goku couldn't react/evade; he specifically said that Goku's body took a severe toll on him reacting because he wasn't accustomed to the form yet, which eventually resulted in Jiren getting some hits in and Goku dropping out of it.

Ergo, Jiren was never better than Ultra Instinct. If anything, every bit of headway he made was attributed to Goku's failure to maintain the form.

Goku is using an even better, more sustainable version of that form against Moro. I'm apathetic to whichever antagonist is stronger, but there's nothing particularly suggesting that Jiren is the superior fighter.

[Jack Bz]

I don't have much to contribute that other posters haven't already, but one detail I feel is being overlooked is the entire reason Jiren overcame UI Goku. When Whis said that Jiren started to counter Goku's attacks faster, he didn't imply that Goku couldn't react/evade; he specifically said that Goku's body took a severe toll on him reacting because he wasn't accustomed to the form yet, which eventually resulted in Jiren getting some hits in and Goku dropping out of it.

Ergo, Jiren was never better than Ultra Instinct. If anything, it was suggested to have been too good for Jiren even at his strongest.

Goku is using an even better version of that form against Moro. I'm apathetic to whichever antagonist is stronger, but there's nothing particularly suggesting that Jiren is the superior fighter.

I don't know. To me, UI Goku vs Jiren really implied that Jiren was truly something of a freak of nature, countering faster and faster as the fight progressed to the point where Whis says Jiren's potential is immeasurable.

I interpreted Goku's troubles more as him having a difficulty maintaining the form indefinitely because he was having to continuously do multiple reactions to an opponent as fast as Jiren, who was only getting faster. I didn't interpret that the form itself was any less effective in its movement, just less stable, meaning that if Goku has to keep up the reactions so much he will drop out of the form. This is the issue he has just overcome with Merus' training.

I think what was shocking for everyone during the ToP was that Jiren, when facing someone stronger and faster than him, managed to just push and improve himself on the spot to where they are going toe to toe (where I again mention that this made Whis comment that his potential is immeasurable).

If Vegeta wasn't there to catch Goku then Jiren would have 100% faced and bested an opponent with a completed but unstable UI, which I think is a better feat than Moro beating an improved Omen Goku.

[The Undying]

In Jiren's defense, Whis did state that his potential is immeasurable. But multiple characters (including Whis) have also stated that Ultra Instinct can overcome any threat when properly utilized, with the obvious exception of characters also capable of using UI.

I'll reiterate that I have no horse in this race; as Cipher said, any number of interpretations can be argued for here. Just felt that bit was worth adding.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Jiren burnt himself out just trying to keep up with mui Goku. He never got stronger, he just countered faster cause ui exploit s openings

Regardless moro73 one shot omen Goku and jiren needed his full power for omen Goku alone. That alone should prove Moro >> jiren

[Cipher]

Gogeta Blue > Broly => Vegito Black Arc => Beerus <=> MUI Goku Moro Arc > Moro73 > SSJBE Vegeta > Jiren

If one wants to use the performances against UI to claim Jiren is stronger than Moro, and thus that Moro might still be below Beerus, I could see it. (Though it’s not particularly the vibe I get.)

I don’t particularly see having Jiren below Beerus, though, as the series is about as explicit as it can be by stating he’s stronger than Vermoud, and not taking any great pains to separate out the Gods of Destruction from one another. The anime goes even further in implying Jiren is above Gods of Destruction writ large.

My reading is that all three of Moro, Broly and Jiren are at least a little stronger than Beerus, with the less clear part bring how they relate to each other, but admittedly there’s some wiggle room, in that only Broly gets a truly explicit comparison. Which ... people try to argue against anyway.

I don't have much to contribute that other posters haven't already, but one detail I feel is being overlooked is the entire reason Jiren overcame UI Goku. When Whis said that Jiren started to counter Goku's attacks faster, he didn't imply that Goku couldn't react/evade; he specifically said that Goku's body took a severe toll on him reacting because he wasn't accustomed to the form yet, which eventually resulted in Jiren getting some hits in and Goku dropping out of it.

Ergo, Jiren was never better than Ultra Instinct. If anything, every bit of headway he made was attributed to Goku's failure to maintain the form.

Goku is using an even better, more sustainable version of that form against Moro. I'm apathetic to whichever antagonist is stronger, but there's nothing particularly suggesting that Jiren is the superior fighter.

Whis’ dialogue in Japanese states that as Jiren raises his speed, reacting to each attack automatically is conversely becoming a burden for Goku. (I’m unsure quite how much this comes across in Viz’s version.)

Though he also says shortly afterward that Goku’s experience with UI is insufficient.

So there’s a bit of Column A, bit of Column B: Jiren is truly incredible—enough to turn UI’s advantages into a potential burden, while managing to stall it out—but Goku could also utilize the form better, which he might have learned to do during his training with Merus?

There’s room for arguments on both sides.

[FishermanJohnWest]

If one wants to use the performances against UI to claim Jiren is stronger than Moro, and thus that Moro might still be below Beerus, I could see it. (Though it’s not particularly the vibe I get.)

I'd say otherway around, if Jiren needed his FP just for Omen Goku in the TOP, while Moro in his prime stomped Goku Omen, and Omen right now >> Omen TOP, it's hard to argue that Jiren is > Moro or even = to him in his prime let alone 73Moro.

I don’t particularly see having Jiren below Beerus, though, as the series is about as explicit as it can be by stating he’s stronger than Vermoud, and not taking any great pains to separate out the Gods of Destruction from one another. The anime goes even further in implying Jiren is above Gods of Destruction writ large.

Anime says Jiren is LIKE a GoD, perhaps higher, anime however never says anyone is > GoDs, but rather a singular GoD. But you are right on Jiren being consistently stated to be > Belmod, but at the same time we don't know the gap power between the 2

My reading is that all three of Moro, Broly and Jiren are at least a little stronger than Beerus, with the less clear part bring how they relate to each other, but admittedly there’s some wiggle room, in that only Broly gets a truly explicit comparison. Which ... people try to argue against anyway.

Which is really the main issue with Jiren and Moro when trying to compare them to Beerus. Vegito and Broly are easy cause they are directly compared and justify each other since Vegito is = Beerus while Broly fought a fusion 2 arcs later. But Jiren + Moro just have no statements that directly put them = or > Beerus specifically. And that's were the wiggle rooms comes in.