Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

If we assume SSJ Gohan (RoF) was about 50% of his Ultimate self (downplayed a bit) from the Buu saga, the SSJ2 Gohan that Piccolo wrecked would more or less be on par with the Ultimate Gohan that fought Super Buu, while the new Ultimate Gohan would be even stronger than that by some unspecified amount.

The thing is, Piccolo (RoF) was never stated to have lost power and it was stated that Base Gohan was stronger than him; this at the very least means that Base Gohan (RoF) was likely comparable to some of the mid-top contenders of the Cell saga. Toss in a 50x boost on top of that and yeah, I could definitely see his SSJ (or SSJ2) rivaling Super Buu at the very least. Base Gohan also likely had a pretty good lead in terms of power, as Tagoma basically singled him out yet didn't once bother taking on Piccolo until Piccolo himself foolishly rushed in.

[Marlowe89]

You don't even consider the alternative, or bother to see how other ideas can potentially be correct.

In this case? Absolutely. I don't, and I won't.

When the alternative interpretation argues that a phrase doesn't mean what it literally means, I'm simply not going to entertain that possibility. Ever. Period. The alternative simply isn't correct by that measure, and has little to no chance of ever being correct unless another scene explicitly demonstrates otherwise.

If that conflicts with your standards for debating etiquette, then so be it. I'm not going to change my approach in that regard at any point. I will always take linguistic rules and sentence structure far more seriously than any other fan extrapolation, especially if it's relevant to the current narrative. If the sentence wasn't translated correctly, that's one thing, but we have no way of verifying that until it's disputed. The line that I'm referring to was corroborated by both Herms and the official subtitles, so I have no reason to question it.

[Bullza]

Ultimate Gohan in E88 can't be the same as his Boo arc self power level wise for the simple fact that base Gohan was able to match up to Lavender.

Well why can't Lavender be weaker than Frieza on Namek as well? Krillin was shown to put up a good fight against Basil in the imagination battle.

Because Cell Games Gohan is absolutely nothing to anybody in DBS and that would render him about as relevant as Yamcha if this were the case. He is weaker than his Ultimate Gohan self but the difference from SSJ2 Cell Games -> Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc is a pretty massive gap. By "weaker" I mean his Base is probably weaker than SSJ2 Cell Games Self but his SSJ form is probably far beyond it based on my interpretation of the events

Well Gohan was pretty irrelevant to pretty much everyone in DBS anyway before he trained.

I don't see why Base and Super Saiyan Gohan up through the Universe 6 Saga can't be weaker than Base and Super Saiyan Gohan in the Cell Games.

1. He'd stopped training in the years following Kid Buu so about 5 years.
2. His body was that weak he couldn't use Super Saiyan for long.
3. He couldn't use Super Saiyan 2 at all.
4. He had to be retrained from scratch.
5. Even Krillin beat him.

[Zamasu55]

Basil did fairly well against Good Buu. He's at least Super Perfect Cell tier, if not higher.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You don't even consider the alternative, or bother to see how other ideas can potentially be correct.

In this case? Absolutely.

When the alternative interpretation argues that a phrase doesn't mean what it literally means, I'm simply not going to entertain that possibility. Ever. Period. The alternative simply isn't correct by that measure, and it has no little to no chance of ever being correct unless another scene explicitly demonstrates otherwise.

If that conflicts with your standards for debating etiquette, then so be it. I'm not going to change my approach in that regard at any point. I will always take linguistic rules and sentence structure far more seriously than any other fan extrapolation, especially if it's relevant to the current narrative. If the sentence wasn't translated correctly, that's one thing, but we have no way of verifying that until it's disputed. The line that I'm referring to was corroborated by both Herms and the official subtitles, so I have no reason to question it.

Then we're at an impasse.

You can't admit that your take is simply another interpretation and somehow the one and only truth, and it seems I can't convince you otherwise.

Guess we'll have to stick with "agree to disagree", since neither of us is gonna convince the other that we're wrong on this subjective matter. Such is the nature of the beast that is Human perception, I suppose.

But you know, this discussion does have me wondering....... there are some fascinating ideas swimming in people's minds about why they believe what they believe when it comes to this particular corner of the franchise. You obviously have your own ideas as our little back-and-forth has revealed, but I'd love to see what other people have to say, and the ways in which they conduct themselves.

BTW, at the end of the day, I do actually agree that Gohan awakened his Ultimate power and that it was at the same level as that which he displayed against Super Buu; that one's been my interpretation for months, actually. It was more the method to your madness that got me all riled up, and me trying to convince you that perhaps being less absolutist and brash would strengthen your argument as a whole.

[PFM18]

You don't even consider the alternative, or bother to see how other ideas can potentially be correct.

In this case? Absolutely. I don't, and I won't.

When the alternative interpretation argues that a phrase doesn't mean what it literally means, I'm simply not going to entertain that possibility. Ever. Period.

Yes, because "Let's do this" could literally ONLY mean what you interpreted it as.

This is honestly getting ridiculous. Like seriously?

[Marlowe89]

Guess we'll have to stick with "agree to disagree", since neither of us is gonna convince the other that we're wrong on this subjective matter. Such is the nature of the beast that is Human perception, I suppose.

That's fine. For what it's worth, I generally consider myself fairly open to other ideas and interpretations if I feel that there's sufficient room for their validity. It's just that when I'm 100% confident that something is the case - whether it comes from a guidebook, a direct piece of dialogue, word-of-god, etc. - I'm almost always going to express that viewpoint very thoroughly and absolutely, because that's just how I see it. I'm aware that this can lead to me ruffling somebody's feathers, but I'm not the kind of poster willing to entertain a scenario I personally consider far too unlikely to remain a valid possibility.

It is what it is, I suppose. Hopefully this won't mark a shift in our normal interactions too much; I have nothing against anyone here and I appreciate that this forum isn't usually as hostile as other environments on the web.

Yes, because "Let's do this" could literally ONLY mean what you interpreted it as.

I already went over that in my previous post addressed to you. My conversation with Perhaps was focused more on Piccolo's line than anything else, at least from the way I approached it.

[supercat]

Ultimate Gohan 50% (Buu saga) = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Ginyu-Tagoma > Super Buu = Tagoma > / = Base Gohan > Piccolo > Perfect Cell

I think having SSJ Gohan being comparable to at least 50% of his Ultimate self is a very likely scenario when we consider the fact that Base Gohan was noticeably stronger than a Piccolo who was likely stronger than he was during the Cell saga. 50x someone who is noticeably stronger than Perfect Cell-tier should at least make said character a bit stronger than Super Buu.

[Miracles]

To be fair, one's personality and emotional state play a heavy role in affecting how one fights in this series.

In the very same fight, Goku and Freeza were able to land blows and actually hurt Jiren, whom couldn't even muster up the energy to tank or block, yet not more than a few seconds later, he flies at 17 who blasts him and does nothing.

Seems like landing solid blows when your opponent isn't able to guard or take your hits is VERY potent in a fight.

Jiren did guard and take hits. Freeza and Goku only landed blows on Jiren due to teamwork.
They landed hits on Jiren in their tag team with Goku grabbing Jiren and Freeza kneeing him, they move and 17 blasts him into the debris.
Then they Hit him in the rubble due to 17's blasts and Jiren pummels them and goes after 17. This is why Jiren said the power of U7 is their trust/friendship.
Emotion does play a role but to the degree of one losing focus and opening them up, like Freeza told Jiren about getting too excited and catching him off guard with Telekinesis rock smash.

[HeroR]

What?? How could all those characters be weaker rhan Buu arc Ultimate Gohan? Pretty much every relevant character in DBS surpasses everything in DBZ.

I agree, there's little to no chance that anyone relevant would lose to the likes of SSJ Vegetto or anyone else from the Buu saga. Final Form Frieza in particular was on par with a Base Goku that should have at least been SSJ Vegetto-tier (if not a good amount stronger) by the time of RoF. Bergamo also fighting on par with Base Goku (who by that point should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto) strongly implies he too is at a level that far eclipses anything from the Buu saga. I don't even like the Trio De Danger, but I honestly can't see someone like Buu standing up to a character who could tangle with ToP Base Goku. In any case, Basil losing to Buu doesn't mean Bergamo has to be around that caliber.

The whole SSJ Gohan vs Goku fight was more than likely a quick sparring match that wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Between Gohan's demeanor and the overall setting, Goku was more than likely playing around. I find it a tad odd that a number of good feats are labeled as outliers or filler yet a gag scene between Goku and Gohan is taken so seriously. Also, it's very unlikely Piccolo is at all close to current SSJ Goku / Vegeta when he couldn't even do a thing against Base Goku. Going off of feats alone, Android 18 should be closer to Base Goku and Vegeta; she did defeat Giant Ribrianne and Tupper after all. I'm honestly not even sure if Piccolo would be capable of something like that at this point. Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Bergamo >>> SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Vegetto / Base Gohan > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > Lavender > / = Basil

To add to this, we saw in 90 that a far more serious Goku fighting at base form against base form Gohan, who was specifically stated to have gotten stronger to the point that he tells Goku, 'I'm nowhere near my full power' that impressed Goku. So if Goku and Gohan were even in base form back in 75, then base form Gohan should have smashed Goku into the ground and there was no way a semi-serious Ultimate Goku would struggled that hard against Super Saiyan 2 Goku if a weakened Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

[supercat]

What?? How could all those characters be weaker rhan Buu arc Ultimate Gohan? Pretty much every relevant character in DBS surpasses everything in DBZ.

I agree, there's little to no chance that anyone relevant would lose to the likes of SSJ Vegetto or anyone else from the Buu saga. Final Form Frieza in particular was on par with a Base Goku that should have at least been SSJ Vegetto-tier (if not a good amount stronger) by the time of RoF. Bergamo also fighting on par with Base Goku (who by that point should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto) strongly implies he too is at a level that far eclipses anything from the Buu saga. I don't even like the Trio De Danger, but I honestly can't see someone like Buu standing up to a character who could tangle with ToP Base Goku. In any case, Basil losing to Buu doesn't mean Bergamo has to be around that caliber.

The whole SSJ Gohan vs Goku fight was more than likely a quick sparring match that wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Between Gohan's demeanor and the overall setting, Goku was more than likely playing around. I find it a tad odd that a number of good feats are labeled as outliers or filler yet a gag scene between Goku and Gohan is taken so seriously. Also, it's very unlikely Piccolo is at all close to current SSJ Goku / Vegeta when he couldn't even do a thing against Base Goku. Going off of feats alone, Android 18 should be closer to Base Goku and Vegeta; she did defeat Giant Ribrianne and Tupper after all. I'm honestly not even sure if Piccolo would be capable of something like that at this point. Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Bergamo >>> SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Vegetto / Base Gohan > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > Lavender > / = Basil

To add to this, we saw in 90 that a far more serious Goku fighting at base form against base form Gohan, who was specifically stated to have gotten stronger to the point that he tells Goku, 'I'm nowhere near my full power' that impressed Goku. So if Goku and Gohan were even in base form back in 75, then base form Gohan should have smashed Goku into the ground and there was no way a semi-serious Ultimate Goku would struggled that hard against Super Saiyan 2 Goku if a weakened Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Exactly! This post summed it up perfectly. There's likely no way for Gohan to have been on par with Goku during their first sparring match when the two were basically on par with one another after Gohan had powered up dramatically. A logical conclusion is that Goku was merely having fun with his son the first time around; the non-serious setting and Gohan's demeanor basically implies the fight was everything but serious.

By the ToP, Base Gohan is likely strong enough to effortlessly wreck anyone from the Buu saga.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate Gohan in E88 can't be the same as his Boo arc self power level wise for the simple fact that base Gohan was able to match up to Lavender.

Well why can't Lavender be weaker than Frieza on Namek as well? Krillin was shown to put up a good fight against Basil in the imagination battle.

Because Cell Games Gohan is absolutely nothing to anybody in DBS and that would render him about as relevant as Yamcha if this were the case. He is weaker than his Ultimate Gohan self but the difference from SSJ2 Cell Games -> Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc is a pretty massive gap. By "weaker" I mean his Base is probably weaker than SSJ2 Cell Games Self but his SSJ form is probably far beyond it based on my interpretation of the events

Well Gohan was pretty irrelevant to pretty much everyone in DBS anyway before he trained.

I don't see why Base and Super Saiyan Gohan up through the Universe 6 Saga can't be weaker than Base and Super Saiyan Gohan in the Cell Games.

1. He'd stopped training in the years following Kid Buu so about 5 years.
2. His body was that weak he couldn't use Super Saiyan for long.
3. He couldn't use Super Saiyan 2 at all.
4. He had to be retrained from scratch.
5. Even Krillin beat him.

Because that will make the other 7 members of U9 weaker than Freeza on Namek. Remember that the Trio of Danger are the strongest of U9.

[Bullza]

I think having SSJ Gohan being comparable to at least 50% of his Ultimate self is a very likely scenario when we consider the fact that Base Gohan was noticeably stronger than a Piccolo who was likely stronger than he was during the Cell saga.

But do we know for certain that Base Gohan is noticeably stronger than Piccolo?

Piccolo was stomped by Tagoma but he was wearing weights at the time. Base Gohan didn't fare any better against Tagoma and was called puny.

Then when they fought shortly after and Piccolo wasn't wearing weights then he wasn't out of breathe unlike Base Gohan.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No evidence of that. Just a random statement. Basil isn't stronger than everything in dbz. And since Gohan was relative to Goku in the same form while he was still weaker than his Boo arc strength, that's how it scales. And Piccolo lost to the same Boo arc Ultimate Power. The same Piccolo that easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to Base Goku.

You are basing this on your own interpretation of a singular scene. Goku and Gohan were not relative to each other in the same form. Goku had a sparring match with his son who he knows wasn't training very seriously or very frequently, obviously he isn't going to go all out. It was just a friendly sparring match. Piccolo losing to the same Ultimate Gohan could possibly hold water but it doesn't give credence to the notion that Goku in base isn't dramatically stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. The fact that:

1. Gohan, who had probably not had a dramatic dropoff in power from ROF, was dominated by First Form Freeza, then Base form Goku goes and beats Freeza even after he goes into his Final Form and becomes atleast a hundred times stronger.
2. Goku competes with Beerus in his base form. (As opposed to being flicked by Beerus previously in his SSJ3 form.)
3. Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form and Goku fights evenly with him.
4. Buu, after powering up significantly, is still only relative to Goku in his base form when Goku appears to not even be taking it seriously.
5. Goku, after SSG was impled to be being superior to SSJ3 Vegetto several times, infused this power in his SSJ form.

And the list goes on. Based on the evidence we have in the series, it is obviously clear that Goku was holding back against Gohan in their sparring match and it is clear that even in Base form he is currently leaps and bounds above everything in DBZ and the same goes for Vegeta.

Infact going by FighterZ, Gohan isn't even as strong as he was in the Cell Games by Post Universe 6 Saga.

We shouldn't be going by Figherz. It is just a video game.

Also, the notion that Gohan and Goku were relative to each other before the ToP arc needs to die. That was just a casual sparring match and everything else in the entire series points to Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan in an equivalent form. It is very reasonable to assume Goku was heavily suppressed during that altercation.

You didn't address my point. Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo and Piccolo easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to base Goku.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

Those 5 points you brought up are either conjecture or irrelevant to what you're trying to assert. The fact that your stance requires you to ignore events from the story and make a pile of assumptions to justify it makes it dubious at best. Can't take it seriously.

[Bullza]

Because that will make the other 7 members of U9 weaker than Freeza on Namek. Remember that the Trio of Danger are the strongest of U9.

Well maybe they are, Frieza was also supposed to be the strongest in U7 at one point himself.

Krillin, Tien and Roshi wouldn't be as strong as Frieza on Namek and they beat several people so it's not like there weren't plenty of characters that were weaker than him.

And again Krillin did put up a pretty good fight against Basil and he beat Base Gohan. Would Krillin have done nearly as well against Frieza? It would seem unlikely if Base Goku wouldn't have been able to.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think having SSJ Gohan being comparable to at least 50% of his Ultimate self is a very likely scenario when we consider the fact that Base Gohan was noticeably stronger than a Piccolo who was likely stronger than he was during the Cell saga.

But do we know for certain that Base Gohan is noticeably stronger than Piccolo?

Piccolo was stomped by Tagoma but he was wearing weights at the time. Base Gohan didn't fare any better against Tagoma and was called puny.

Then when they fought shortly after and Piccolo wasn't wearing weights then he wasn't out of breathe unlike Base Gohan.

My personal take with later info accounted for is that Piccolo without any weights and base Gohan were roughly equal at the time, and while Gohan did improve himself afterwards from training with Piccolo, Piccolo made overall greater gains than Gohan did in his base form, allowing him to eventually catch up to and surpass even SS Gohan.

[PFM18]

I don't see why Base and Super Saiyan Gohan up through the Universe 6 Saga can't be weaker than Base and Super Saiyan Gohan in the Cell Games.

1. He'd stopped training in the years following Kid Buu so about 5 years.
2. His body was that weak he couldn't use Super Saiyan for long.
3. He couldn't use Super Saiyan 2 at all.
4. He had to be retrained from scratch.
5. Even Krillin beat him.

For Gohan to drop from Ultimate Gohan to below his Cell Saga self it would have to be a downright massive drop. Like I am talking like a difference of around 60x. Such a colossal difference is not reasonable.

He stopped training for 7 years before Buu saga and this 5 year drop in power would dwarf that drop in power. There just isn't reason to believe that the drop would be so intense. He hadn't trained in a while and so his body's control was less and he had become weaker. But he still retained enough strength to be far beyond his Cell games self, to the point where his Base might be stronger than Piccolo and obviously he would still be a formidable force when he goes SSJ. When you mention Krillin beating him, that is not really a very good example. This Gohan that lost to Krillin had been training since ROF(not much but he had been) and he was much stronger than this ROF self. And yet, he STILL lost. Why? Because Krillin used the Solar Flare x100 and so it gave him the edge. It had very little to do with power.

In actuality, you're describing the order of events incorrectly right here. They don't fight evenly in base after Goku admits to holding back; they immediately go Super Saiyan after Goku's statement and then continue fighting.

The writer's intention doesn't contradict the rest of the series at all. It's specifically shown that Gohan trains periodically throughout the show to the point that he was finally able to reobtain his Super Saiyan 2 transformation by the beginning of the Universe Survival arc, which wasn't too long after his sparring match with Goku. He didn't suddenly close the gap between himself and his father in equivalent forms only after regaining his Ultimate form -- that was just the result of his gradual progress throughout Super.

I was not implying that was the order of the events. They fight evenly in base and then Goku admits that he was holding back. Then, they fight in Super Saiyan and still fight evenly. Obviously Goku was still holding back if they are still fighting evenly after they fought evenly before when Goku admitted to it.

Ok yes Gohan got stronger but by this point in the story he was still nowhere near his father. Goku had all the training with Whis and all of the stuff he had been through. Gohan may have not even surpassed his Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan self, Goku left that level of power in the dust long ago. At that point, nothing that appeared in Z could remotely compete with him based on everything we had seen. There's absolutely no reason to believe that the same could be said about Gohan.

[Marlowe89]

Because that will make the other 7 members of U9 weaker than Freeza on Namek. Remember that the Trio of Danger are the strongest of U9.

There's nothing particularly wrong with that idea. If they're weaker than Basil in his base form as they were implied to be, who himself was dramatically weaker than Buu, I can't imagine them being that much stronger than early Cell arc levels at the absolute most.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

That's another good point that I've brought up in the past -- Goku obviously isn't going to resort to Super Saiyan against an opponent that I presume people are trying to argue is weaker than his base strength, especially during a fight that was implied to have escalated to a somewhat serious level. That whole assumption is totally absurd just on the surface and not only goes against the dialogue in the scene, but common sense in general.

[supercat]

I think having SSJ Gohan being comparable to at least 50% of his Ultimate self is a very likely scenario when we consider the fact that Base Gohan was noticeably stronger than a Piccolo who was likely stronger than he was during the Cell saga.

But do we know for certain that Base Gohan is noticeably stronger than Piccolo?

Piccolo was stomped by Tagoma but he was wearing weights at the time. Base Gohan didn't fare any better against Tagoma and was called puny.

Then when they fought shortly after and Piccolo wasn't wearing weights then he wasn't out of breathe unlike Base Gohan.

Yes, Tagoma singled Gohan out and went as far as stating the reason behind his choice yet he said no such thing about Piccolo. Tagoma didn't even bother with Piccolo until he was directly challenged; even then, all he did was scoff and ridicule him. This is totally different from how Tagoma actually felt the need to catch Gohan off guard.

I don't think Piccolo taking his weights off would have made much of a difference. Honestly, I think the point of that brief and to the point scuffle was to show just how outclassed everyone (excluding Gohan) was. Piccolo wasn't able to do a thing against Tagoma despite landing a direct hit on his face; it doesn't get more one-sided than that. Gohan was able to tangle with Ginyu-Tagoma, who was implied to be even stronger than Tagoma himself.

So to sum it all up:

Tagoma indicated that Gohan was indeed the strongest of his team. This gap is likely noticeable, otherwise Tagoma would have at least mentioned something about Piccolo being next in line or whatever.

Tagoma took a strategic approach against Gohan, whereas he thought of Piccolo as a complete joke whose punch he chose to tank directly.

Tagoma flat-out wrecked Piccolo without putting in any effort, yet Base Gohan was able to go at it with Ginyu-Tagoma (someone who was implied to be stronger than Tagoma).

Considering how things played out, I honestly think SSJ Gohan (RoF) being around 50-75% of his Ultimate self from the Buu saga and Ginyu being a bit stronger than Super Buu makes a lot of sense.

[PFM18]

No evidence of that. Just a random statement. Basil isn't stronger than everything in dbz. And since Gohan was relative to Goku in the same form while he was still weaker than his Boo arc strength, that's how it scales. And Piccolo lost to the same Boo arc Ultimate Power. The same Piccolo that easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to Base Goku.

You are basing this on your own interpretation of a singular scene. Goku and Gohan were not relative to each other in the same form. Goku had a sparring match with his son who he knows wasn't training very seriously or very frequently, obviously he isn't going to go all out. It was just a friendly sparring match. Piccolo losing to the same Ultimate Gohan could possibly hold water but it doesn't give credence to the notion that Goku in base isn't dramatically stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. The fact that:

1. Gohan, who had probably not had a dramatic dropoff in power from ROF, was dominated by First Form Freeza, then Base form Goku goes and beats Freeza even after he goes into his Final Form and becomes atleast a hundred times stronger.
2. Goku competes with Beerus in his base form. (As opposed to being flicked by Beerus previously in his SSJ3 form.)
3. Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form and Goku fights evenly with him.
4. Buu, after powering up significantly, is still only relative to Goku in his base form when Goku appears to not even be taking it seriously.
5. Goku, after SSG was impled to be being superior to SSJ3 Vegetto several times, infused this power in his SSJ form.

And the list goes on. Based on the evidence we have in the series, it is obviously clear that Goku was holding back against Gohan in their sparring match and it is clear that even in Base form he is currently leaps and bounds above everything in DBZ and the same goes for Vegeta.

Infact going by FighterZ, Gohan isn't even as strong as he was in the Cell Games by Post Universe 6 Saga.

We shouldn't be going by Figherz. It is just a video game.

Also, the notion that Gohan and Goku were relative to each other before the ToP arc needs to die. That was just a casual sparring match and everything else in the entire series points to Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan in an equivalent form. It is very reasonable to assume Goku was heavily suppressed during that altercation.

You didn't address my point. Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo and Piccolo easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to base Goku.

If what you're saying is true then Goku wouldn't have used a power above his base strength. That's all that's needed to dismantle your stance. The dialogue points towards a spar that got serious and Goku used a power greater than his base strength. There's nothing to interpret. A Gohan that's weaker than his Boo arc strength was an opponent that Goku deemed strong enough for Super Saiyan.

Those 5 points you brought up are either conjecture or irrelevant to what you're trying to assert. The fact that your stance requires you to ignore events from the story and make a pile of assumptions to justify it makes it dubious at best. Can't take it seriously.

See your first problem is that you are mixing and matching the manga and anime talking about how Piccolo beat Bergamo and what not. This cannot be done they are completely different continuities.

Goku was established to be suppressed. This arc well established that you can be in a transformed state and still be weaker than a non-transformed state if you are suppressed enough. There is no reason to believe that Goku was going all out nor is there reason to believe that Goku needed SSJ.

I don't know if you are just being purposely stubborn or what but obviously the 5 points I mentioned are very relevant to what I was trying to assert. You are implying that Goku in base is weaker than Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan, that is just not the case based on the 5 things that I mentioned. The story makes it very clear the massive difference in power between current Goku and the Buu arc iteration of him. SSJ Goku by BoG was made abundantly clear to be far above any iteration of Vegetto from the Buu Arc. If you did not pay attentiont to the things that implied this then I do not know what to tell you. From Buu Arc -> ToP Arc the difference in power is similar to the difference between Piccolo Jr Arc -> Buu Arc Goku. The difference from the end of the previous series to the end of the current series is massive, that is just how this works.

There's nothing particularly wrong with that idea. If they're weaker than Basil in his base form as they were implied to be, who himself was dramatically weaker than Buu, I can't imagine them being that much stronger than early Cell arc levels at the absolute most.

There's something horribly wrong with that idea. And the fact that this must be the case in order for your interpretation to work pretty much invalidates your entire theory on these tremendously nerfed characters. Namek Arc Freeza is irrelevant at this point and anybody other than say Ganos being that weak is ridiculous.