Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

Uhm... Which version of UI?

Episode 129. The incomplete one. The question just specified it

[GodVegetto91]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

Uhm... Which version of UI?

Episode 129. The incomplete one. The question just specified it

Well he did master it aswell in episode 129 and you weren’t clear.

As for the match up, UI Omen Goku completely godstomps the two of them. They would lose before they know it. This is an Omen Goku that was able to severely hurt Jiren with one simple punch to the gut. And mind you that this was a very high powered up Jiren.

[HeroR]

Exactly. There's a good chance that Ribrianne wasn't even at full power during her battle with Base Goku. Also, with Giant Ribrianne likely being a lot stronger than she was when she faced Goku yet still losing to Android 18 seems to further support the notion that Android 18 is at least stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan.

Well I just mean since her strength fluctuates so much it is extremely difficult to get a gauge on where exactly she stands compared to anybody else.

Ribrianne could be anywhere between 20-75% of Base Goku's full power in my opinion; possibly somewhere in the middle of that range seems plausible. Regardless of the specifics, I just can't imagine her losing to Buuhan when she was considered such a big deal in Universe 2.

The thing is, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta for a few seconds. Unless Vegeta was massively holding back, she should in theory be beyond base form. But as is noted, Rib's power level is all over the place.

[supercat]

Well I just mean since her strength fluctuates so much it is extremely difficult to get a gauge on where exactly she stands compared to anybody else.

Ribrianne could be anywhere between 20-75% of Base Goku's full power in my opinion; possibly somewhere in the middle of that range seems plausible. Regardless of the specifics, I just can't imagine her losing to Buuhan when she was considered such a big deal in Universe 2.

The thing is, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta for a few seconds. Unless Vegeta was massively holding back, she should in theory be beyond base form. But as is noted, Rib's power level is all over the place.

I honestly don't have a problem placing her at SSJ Vegeta level. She was apparently a huge deal in Universe 2, so I can't really think of a reason why she wouldn't be able to solo everyone from the Buu saga at the very least. It'd be really surprising if she was somehow weaker than Buuhan as that would mean Universe 2 really isn't much on the power scale.

[Green]

I have:

3rd (Ep 129) UIO >> Hakaishin Toppo >= 2nd UIO > SS2 Kefla > 1st UIO

But we have to consider Goku powers up during 129, rivaling Jiren's full power even before mastering Ultra Istinct. Goku would win anyway in my opinion.

[PFM18]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

3rd UI Omen wins because teamwork is usually useless in the Dragon Ball franchise. If you face two people slightly/significantly weaker than you then you can usually win a 2v1. It is strange but that is usually how that works.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

3rd UI Omen wins because teamwork is usually useless in the Dragon Ball franchise. If you face two people slightly/significantly weaker than you then you can usually win a 2v1. It is strange but that is usually how that works.

Agreed on this part. And that's aside from Goku getting stronger than before (idk if you agree to that but I'm just saying. If you wish to know why, I already covered that partially on my other discussion with you on the Versus thread)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I have:

3rd (Ep 129) UIO >> Hakaishin Toppo >= 2nd UIO > SS2 Kefla > 1st UIO

But we have to consider Goku powers up during 129, rivaling Jiren's full power even before mastering Ultra Istinct. Goku would win anyway in my opinion.

Rather than the ">=" I'd actually put it as ">>" but overall fully agreed.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Base Jiren (Pre Awakening) vs Beerus

[PFM18]

Base Jiren (Pre Awakening) vs Beerus

Obviously Jiren. Shouldn't this go in the Versus thread? I believe this thread is more for tiering and talking generally about strength and things of that nature.

Things look like this to me:

UI Goku(post-rage boost)>Limit Breaker Jiren>Full-Power Jiren>Belmod>Beerus>=3rd UI Omen>2nd UI Omen>=SSJ2 Kefla>SSBE Vegeta(post-pride/rage boost)>Hakaishin Toppo>SSBKKx20 Goku=SSBE Vegeta(pre-pride/rage boost)

[Rally 07]

In the 2nd use of UI, it was only stated that Goku had better movements not that raw strength has improved or anything alike. That's why he had trouble with his attacks in the second form unlike when he first used it.

While he's stated to have better movement, that doesn't mean he hasn't grown at least somewhat in power. And the evidence for that is Gokou being able to take Kefura's kick and get back up whereas with the Genkidama, he was forced to break his limits and transform into Ultra Instinct Omen. Unlike the Genkidama, he didn't have the chance to counter her because he was caught by surprise. And he was able to get back up from an attack from a character whom was stated to rival the Genkidama from Super episode 109, and against the same Genkidama, Gokou was not going to survive unless he transformed. Not to mention later on, the characters in the benches kept mentioning how both Kefura and Gokou continued on increasing their Ki and powered up further during their fight.

The only reason why he didn't have such a issue is because he absorbed the genkidama in the first use with gave him enough raw power. Without the genkidama he would've lacked the ki from earlier.

Um I doubt Gokou absorbed the Genkidama at all. There isn't any solid evidence for such. I mean, that was the interpretation for a while until more statements came out with later episodes regarding the whole concept of Ultra Instinct. Also he probably wouldn't have lacked Ki because Freeza gave him some Ki immediately after his first fight with Jiren.

I hope you not interperting that SSJ Kefla kick rivals the genkidama since that point gets killed in epsiode 122, when Vegeta claims Jiren has the strongest ki he felt yet wasn't as powerful when rivialling Goku from 110.

Interesting but what connection would this have with Kefura and the Genkidama at all?

In other words it pretty much implies that even Goku from episode 110 is stronger than Kefla nor Kefla is surpassing the power a the genkidama.

I'd actually like to believe the inital Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 110 is probably more powerful than Kefura considering she was only stated to have rivalled the Genkidama rather than surpassing that. And in 110, Gokou possibly surpassed the Genkidama and was able to fight evenly with a heavily suppressed Jiren.

Regardless that kicked did force him to break his limit and ignite UI, so I don't what you mean he didn't need to transform.

I may have botched that up in my original post. I didn't mean to imply that Gokou didn't need to transform, what I meant was that Gokou was able to take an attack that rivalled the Genkidama whereas Gokou earlier needed to break his limits and transform otherwise he was going to die.

[Green]

Yeah I think it would fit better in the versus thread, here's my full scale:

>> big difference
> considerable difference (in PL terms around 15-20%)
>= very small difference, may not be there at all

UI Goku (Full Power) > Limits Broken Jiren > UI Goku >> Jiren >= 3rd UIO >= Beerus > Belmod >= 3rd UIO (Initial) > SSBE Vegeta (Powered up) >= Hakaishin Toppo >= 2nd UIO > SS2 Kefla > 1st UIO Goku

So I guess Jiren would win more times than not, I don't see Beerus stronger than the final Ultra Istinct Omen. He may fare better thanks to Hakai Energy but we've already seen that it's not that useful againts stronger opponents (Toppo vs Vegeta), so yeah he gets overwhelmed.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Ribrianne could be anywhere between 20-75% of Base Goku's full power in my opinion; possibly somewhere in the middle of that range seems plausible. Regardless of the specifics, I just can't imagine her losing to Buuhan when she was considered such a big deal in Universe 2.

The thing is, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta for a few seconds. Unless Vegeta was massively holding back, she should in theory be beyond base form. But as is noted, Rib's power level is all over the place.

I honestly don't have a problem placing her at SSJ Vegeta level. She was apparently a huge deal in Universe 2, so I can't really think of a reason why she wouldn't be able to solo everyone from the Buu saga at the very least. It'd be really surprising if she was somehow weaker than Buuhan as that would mean Universe 2 really isn't much on the power scale.

I think she can be well above those levels as well as long as she remains confident in herself and her beliefs in Love.

In her Base to Angry/Rage form when she was fighting Android 17 Ribrianne was likely SSJ2 levels likely and In her Super Ribrianne Form either SSJ2-SSJ3 Levels while at full confidence levels. Again It took Goku calculating to Go SSJ-Blue in the Special just to Knock her out of Super Ribrianne form and it did not do any Damage to her, so that has to be taken into account as well.

At her Titan-Form Levels she could likely knock on SSJ-3 or Red Levels of power, but the Goku Going Blue should still remain a factor to consider. The Writers need to clean up how they define her in the future, but her level being connected to confidences levels is a good start.

[supercat]

The thing is, she fought Super Saiyan Vegeta for a few seconds. Unless Vegeta was massively holding back, she should in theory be beyond base form. But as is noted, Rib's power level is all over the place.

I honestly don't have a problem placing her at SSJ Vegeta level. She was apparently a huge deal in Universe 2, so I can't really think of a reason why she wouldn't be able to solo everyone from the Buu saga at the very least. It'd be really surprising if she was somehow weaker than Buuhan as that would mean Universe 2 really isn't much on the power scale.

I think she can be well above those levels as well as long as she remains confident in herself and her beliefs in Love.

In her Base to Angry/Rage form when she was fighting Android 17 Ribrianne was likely SSJ2 levels likely and In her Super Ribrianne Form either SSJ2-SSJ3 Levels while at full confidence levels. Again It took Goku calculating to Go SSJ-Blue in the Special just to Knock her out of Super Ribrianne form and it did not do any Damage to her, so that has to be taken into account as well.

At her Titan-Form Levels she could likely knock on SSJ-3 or Red Levels of power, but the Goku Going Blue should still remain a factor to consider. The Writers need to clean up how they define her in the future, but her level being connected to confidences levels is a good start.

I think Android 17 was largely suppressed when he faced off against Ribrianne. I don't think Ribrianne is a pushover by any means, but her fighting on par with a full power Android 17, someone who is very likely current Super Saiyan Blue level seems a bit farfetched. Future 17 using less than half his power against Future Gohan seems to imply that Android 17 doesn't always go all out.

I think a lot of people dislike placing Ribrianne that high as doing so would mean that Android 18 is even stronger. Personally, I feel they could easily solo anyone from the Buu saga, but how well they would do against current SSJ Goku seems a bit ambiguous. Considering how important she was in her own universe, I'd imagine she'd at least be comparable to current SSJ1 / SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, but it's difficult to tell. But again, I just can't imagine how she could lose to any form of Buu when it was never even implied that Universe 2 was weak in any shape or form; taking feats and such into consideration, wrecking Buuhan is the bare minimum of her abilities in my opinion.

[PFM18]

Yeah I think it would fit better in the versus thread, here's my full scale:

>> big difference
> considerable difference (in PL terms around 15-20%)
>= very small difference, may not be there at all

UI Goku (Full Power) > Limits Broken Jiren > UI Goku >> Jiren >= 3rd UIO >= Beerus > Belmod >= 3rd UIO (Initial) > SSBE Vegeta (Powered up) >= Hakaishin Toppo >= 2nd UIO > SS2 Kefla > 1st UIO Goku

So I guess Jiren would win more times than not, I don't see Beerus stronger than the final Ultra Istinct Omen. He may fare better thanks to Hakai Energy but we've already seen that it's not that useful againts stronger opponents (Toppo vs Vegeta), so yeah he gets overwhelmed.

Why Beerus over Belmod? And Hakaishin Toppo over SSJ2 Kefla?

[Issei189]

I think she can be well above those levels as well as long as she remains confident in herself and her beliefs in Love.

In her Base to Angry/Rage form when she was fighting Android 17 Ribrianne was likely SSJ2 levels likely and In her Super Ribrianne Form either SSJ2-SSJ3 Levels while at full confidence levels. Again It took Goku calculating to Go SSJ-Blue in the Special just to Knock her out of Super Ribrianne form and it did not do any Damage to her, so that has to be taken into account as well.

At her Titan-Form Levels she could likely knock on SSJ-3 or Red Levels of power, but the Goku Going Blue should still remain a factor to consider. The Writers need to clean up how they define her in the future, but her level being connected to confidences levels is a good start.

That's really the issue. Goku and Vegeta also went blue
against Trio de danger who were weaker than their SSJ's and Goku going blue against Kale as well, so I don't wanna take this in consideration. Ribriance really is out of place, so i'm hoping they fix this if the anime ever returns. It makes even less for the Magical guys to give Android 18 and 17 a fight since 18 didn't seem that strong there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know what would've been a perfect opportunity to reintroduce SSG? During the recruitment episodes!

Where Goku goes SSB, have him turn SSG instead against, say, 17 and Ultimate Gohan; that probably would've firmly established where they stood. It'd also mean that SSG's return would make more sense overall.

I know that it's too late, but I would've liked to see this happen.

[supercat]

I think Android 17 facing off against SSB Goku was for the best. The guy started off far stronger than some galactic tyrant who was feared throughout the universe; it's quite natural he'd reach SSB-tier with actual training. Plus, I feel Android 17 rivaling Super Saiyan Blue mirrors how he was much stronger than a regular Super Saiyan in a way. Given how powerful he started off, I'd say it's only fitting that he stays relevant among the top contenders. If Android 17 was only on par with one of Goku's weaker forms, that whole thing where Goku was relieved Android 17 wasn't an enemy wouldn't really have much meaning behind it.

Goku going red for Gohan may have made sense, since feats-wise Android 17 was seemingly a step or two ahead of Gohan for the most part.

[Bullza]

The Black Hole feat shows that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is ahead of Android 17.

Android 17 did perform better than Gohan but I'd probably say Gohan was the stronger out of two characters.

Also the cards suggest both are weaker than Super Saiyan God which I'd also probably believe.

[CJStriker_CBR]

I honestly don't have a problem placing her at SSJ Vegeta level. She was apparently a huge deal in Universe 2, so I can't really think of a reason why she wouldn't be able to solo everyone from the Buu saga at the very least. It'd be really surprising if she was somehow weaker than Buuhan as that would mean Universe 2 really isn't much on the power scale.

I think she can be well above those levels as well as long as she remains confident in herself and her beliefs in Love.

In her Base to Angry/Rage form when she was fighting Android 17 Ribrianne was likely SSJ2 levels likely and In her Super Ribrianne Form either SSJ2-SSJ3 Levels while at full confidence levels. Again It took Goku calculating to Go SSJ-Blue in the Special just to Knock her out of Super Ribrianne form and it did not do any Damage to her, so that has to be taken into account as well.

At her Titan-Form Levels she could likely knock on SSJ-3 or Red Levels of power, but the Goku Going Blue should still remain a factor to consider. The Writers need to clean up how they define her in the future, but her level being connected to confidences levels is a good start.

I think Android 17 was largely suppressed when he faced off against Ribrianne. I don't think Ribrianne is a pushover by any means, but her fighting on par with a full power Android 17, someone who is very likely current Super Saiyan Blue level seems a bit farfetched. Future 17 using less than half his power against Future Gohan seems to imply that Android 17 doesn't always go all out.

I think a lot of people dislike placing Ribrianne that high as doing so would mean that Android 18 is even stronger. Personally, I feel they could easily solo anyone from the Buu saga, but how well they would do against current SSJ Goku seems a bit ambiguous. Considering how important she was in her own universe, I'd imagine she'd at least be comparable to current SSJ1 / SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta, but it's difficult to tell. But again, I just can't imagine how she could lose to any form of Buu when it was never even implied that Universe 2 was weak in any shape or form; taking feats and such into consideration, wrecking Buuhan is the bare minimum of her abilities in my opinion.

I respect yours post their Supercat, it is well thought and and put together and I can see your viewpoints well, thanks for it.

Yea I think Ribrianne and a good deal of others are Way beyond the Various Majin Buus both Buuhan, Kid Buu and even SSJ-2 Veggeto power levels of those eras, with how things have evolved in Super those levels feel like a far off past with what we got now.

Also I don't think it is out of belief that the 18 and Ribrianne Fight 18 found her own power of love and unlike most other fighters like Goku or Vegeta that relying on Training or Surges from Anger, 18's True Love Relations could have had her tap into her own Emotional spectrum like Ribrianne and given even for a Short Time a Major surge of power the Rivialed anything she had before. I could have transformed her abite too to make her stronger, but for that moment in the fight she likely attained a Massive surge of power short of like when Young Gohan would get angry as a kid, surge, then fall back down in power again, that is my theory to that fight anyways.

It is also I Agree with you it is hard to figure Ribrianne's level of power like we could with Jiren, Kale or CauliflaI's fights since Toei seemed to take more care in showing Goku's level ups during different parts of the fights. I Think the writers sadly made it difficult to tell for Ribrianne cause they dropped the ball on the Goku/Ribrianne fight in sadly Not showing more Levels from Goku then just Base form and Blue form.

This is put into greater contrast as well, a 180 when we analyze the Dialogue during that fight instead. It was Very Praising of Ribrianne and her power level showings by both Goku and the crowd. However the art did not mirror what the dialogue was getting at. So it seems Toei was struggle to make sure to Give Ribrianne her time to show shine of her power and abilities but they just seem to drop the ball in that moment for whatever reasons and only went 1/2 way with just giving dialogue and not showing Goku leveling up proper.

What it gets at really is like how Issei189 Says below and I believe this is needed.

That's really the issue. Goku and Vegeta also went blue
against Trio de danger who were weaker than their SSJ's and Goku going blue against Kale as well, so I don't wanna take this in consideration. Ribriance really is out of place, so i'm hoping they fix this if the anime ever returns. It makes even less for the Magical guys to give Android 18 and 17 a fight since 18 didn't seem that strong there.

Indeed I think Toei needs to clean-up their act with how they represent Ribrianne and her Power Level, they did a Nice Job on her Character Evovlution but need to fix her power level showings. Whether it was cause of EDITORIAL MANDATE, Last min. Changes to the script, miss-communications in how to represent Ribrianne's power level well or whatever reasons, Toei needs to clean up their act is showing it better to help Fans of Ribrianne's gain a better understand of where she stands in DB Pantheon of Power.

They started well in the Manga by connecting it to the Emotional Spectrum and how that can flux very high and low VERY Fast based ones emotional state of mind, which I theories was the case before Toei revealed it, but Toei needs to do more in the Next Serious to take better care in showing Ribrianne's Level Definitions.

Indeed I agree with you most Supercat, Ribrianne is No Pushover, Just Toei needs to do a better job representing her for her Fans and Viewers alike.