Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

The whole concept of the Androids/Cyborgs made everything about what happened in series up until their debut seem stupid and pointless. Especially now that they can train and get stronger.

Sorry but back in the Android arc they at least worked to gave an explanation of why these androids were so powerful unlike Super that most likely would just label these characters as way stronger than the main cast and period

Toriyama said that the androids could get stronger if they train because they're modified humans not machines, so their potential should be similar to Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha to compare. He didn't stated they had any great hidden potential because of their modified parts or such.

The explanation given for the Android being as strong as they were was nonsense because Gero had no idea about what happened on Namek. Yet he was able to program Androids far stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyans.

Plus, if the Androids can train and get stronger, then that technically means they do have potential to tap into. You can't get stronger if they there is no strength within you to bring forth in the first place.

Not to mention it's also possible Gero's modifications might have drastically increased their potential.

[Doctor.]

- SbG Goku can't be that weak. Kuririn said Goku was as strong as ever while fighting Freeza. He should be stronger than SSG.

Goku's base is stronger than ever and Kuririn couldn't sense SSG's power, it's not a reasonable assumption to make that he's stronger than SSG.

- Goku and Vegeta where confirmed to get stronger in the Copy-Vegeta arc.

Insignificant boost, I ignored it for the sake of simplicity.

- How did Goku get that strong from learning the Mafuba?

Blame the writers, Goku overpowered Zamasu's blast while it took Vegeta and Trunks together to do it. Later, Goku overpowers Hit's timeskip when he could only do it with Kaioken back at the tournament.

- You really think Goku already surpassed Beerus in this current arc?

With Kaioken x10? He should, but I can easily see them boosting Beerus' power up again, like they've been doing for the past arcs. I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's stronger, though, he's being portrayed as a threat.

That slim boo is way too strong. Goku would have surely been a lot more surprised if Buu got 30+ times stronger in just 2-3 hours. This means the supposedly Saiyan Beyond God Goku would also be a lot weaker than you put him. I personally put base Goku at 30 bilion right now (Buuhan level).

Goku was surprised, he said Boo was much stronger and faster. I put Saiyan beyond God at ultimate Gohan level for the sake of simplicity before this arc, but seeing as how Goku must have gotten at least x2 stronger in order to break through Hit's timeskip, he's almost at SS Vegetto level now.

[ZombieVito]

- SbG Goku can't be that weak. Kuririn said Goku was as strong as ever while fighting Freeza. He should be stronger than SSG.

Goku's base is stronger than ever and Kuririn couldn't sense SSG's power, it's not a reasonable assumption to make that he's stronger than SSG.

They all sensed SSJ Goku, who was as strong as SSG.

[ekrolo2]

It's being teased that Goku's got something that makes him considerably stronger than what's been shown so far, thus I don't think its unreasonable to assume he's gonna bypass Beerus soon.

[emperior]

That slim boo is way too strong. Goku would have surely been a lot more surprised if Buu got 30+ times stronger in just 2-3 hours. This means the supposedly Saiyan Beyond God Goku would also be a lot weaker than you put him. I personally put base Goku at 30 bilion right now (Buuhan level).

Goku was surprised, he said Boo was much stronger and faster. I put Saiyan beyond God at ultimate Gohan level for the sake of simplicity before this arc, but seeing as how Goku must have gotten at least x2 stronger in order to break through Hit's timeskip, he's almost at SS Vegetto level now.

Goku commented Buu's speed (likely increased not too much by his new shape) and his power is still the same or only marginally increased. I think the problem in your list is that you made Super Buu way to strong and his inflates all your power levels. I also really don't believe Mystic Gohan got 5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[Lord Beerus]

Never mind that traditionally if a character is holding back it's usually stated as such.. unless the character is so grossed underpowered it's a gag. But whatever, let's just keep inserting "held back" in order to rectify our head canon even though the display and narrative never implies that. Because that's exactly what we want to see a show we're every single character just keeps holding back..

I guess that mean Mr Satan and Krillin are Perfect Cell tier. They both survived attacks from him and in neither occasion did Cell state he was holding back.

[ZombieVito]

That slim boo is way too strong. Goku would have surely been a lot more surprised if Buu got 30+ times stronger in just 2-3 hours. This means the supposedly Saiyan Beyond God Goku would also be a lot weaker than you put him. I personally put base Goku at 30 bilion right now (Buuhan level).

Goku was surprised, he said Boo was much stronger and faster. I put Saiyan beyond God at ultimate Gohan level for the sake of simplicity before this arc, but seeing as how Goku must have gotten at least x2 stronger in order to break through Hit's timeskip, he's almost at SS Vegetto level now.

Goku commented Buu's speed (likely increased not too much by his new shape) and his power is still the same or only marginally increased. I think the problem in your list is that you made Super Buu way to strong and his inflates all your power levels. I also really don't believe Mystic Gohan got 5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

You haven't made lists for too long have you? 5 is minuscule compared to before BoG released. Back then people put Gohan thousands of times stronger than Goku.

[emperior]

It's being teased that Goku's got something that makes him considerably stronger than what's been shown so far, thus I don't think its unreasonable to assume he's gonna bypass Beerus soon.

Bypass Beerus? All Beerus will need to do is to do some pushup and he will surpass Goku.
Honestly thinking about it I wouldn't like to see something like this. I hope Beerus is near his absolute limit and the only thing he can do is master that "fight without thinking" thing Whis mentioned.
Also hope next episode 17 will say he's trained his ass off for all these years because he likes training or whatever reason, because in the preview it doesn't look like Goku is holding back as a SSB at all.

[buutenks]

Haha, youtube comments on ep 86 preview are hilarious.

17 just magically appeared stronger than Freeza, because he appeared that point in time in the story. If 17 had appeared say after saiyan saga, hed get his ass kicked by captain ginyu. So naturally, since he appeared so late, he, and everyone else will get a big power boost to keep them relevant. If Freeza had returned in the 7 years of peace post Cell arc, hed be as strong as SUper Perfect Cell or ssj2 Gohan or maybe ssj3 if Toriyama would have introduced a new form with the ressurection of Freeza.

I think that, considering how strong they are, any method of training is simply going to be an ass pull and be dictated by the plot. I mean, Freeza trains for 4 months and he is only a tiny it above ssj blue, why not much lower, or leagues above him? Or Goku got such a boost in namek arc after Vegeta beat his body up badly, that when he turned ssj he was just a bit above Freeza.

You all need to understand that, characters that were left beind, if they will get a powerup, it will be an asspull power up, just because.

Never mind that traditionally if a character is holding back it's usually stated as such.. unless the character is so grossed underpowered it's a gag. But whatever, let's just keep inserting "held back" in order to rectify our head canon even though the display and narrative never implies that. Because that's exactly what we want to see a show we're every single character just keeps holding back..

I guess that mean Mr Satan and Krillin are Perfect Cell tier. They both survived attacks from him and in neither occasion did Cell state he was holding back.

Cell was not powered up(we know this because he powers up against Goku later on) and he swatted aside Mr Satan like a fly, he used more force to hit krillin, then Mr Satan.

And for Krillin, Cell again was not at full power(since he unleashes his full power vs ssj2 Gohan). That just means krillin was durable enough to survive(just survive, he still had his back broken by the kick) a casual kick from Perfect Cell.

So, bad examples.

[Noah]

The explanation given for the Android being as strong as they were was nonsense because Gero had no idea about what happened on Namek. Yet he was able to program Androids far stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyans.

Plus, if the Androids can train and get stronger, then that technically means they do have potential to tap into. You can't get stronger if they there is no strength within you to bring forth in the first place.

Non sense? Dr. Gero was a brilliant scientist acknowleged by Bulma and her father. He had had followed Goku and his cia since 22nd TB with a bug-robot that collected informations to find a ways to defeat him. He did analysis, calculations and estimations, it wasn't something totally taken out of nowhere considering in early DB he created Android 8: a cyborg that was stronger than 21st Goku before Gero even know about his existence.

Toriyama doesn't mention they had any potential, he just says that they can get stronger because they're human based.

Not to mention it's also possible Gero's modifications might have drastically increased their potential.

Yeah it could be and I would have no problem with that if was in fact stated somewhere.

[emperior]

Not to mention it's also possible Gero's modifications might have drastically increased their potential.

Yeah it could be and I would have no problem with that if was in fact stated somewhere.

I would like to see 17 commenting his absurd gains saying something along the lines of "Maybe it's got something to do with those modifications that crazy Dr Gero did to me, but I have made incredible progress by training all these years. Even I am quite shocked by how much I improved"

Unfortunately it's not going to happen

Goku was surprised, he said Boo was much stronger and faster. I put Saiyan beyond God at ultimate Gohan level for the sake of simplicity before this arc, but seeing as how Goku must have gotten at least x2 stronger in order to break through Hit's timeskip, he's almost at SS Vegetto level now.

Goku commented Buu's speed (likely increased not too much by his new shape) and his power is still the same or only marginally increased. I think the problem in your list is that you made Super Buu way to strong and his inflates all your power levels. I also really don't believe Mystic Gohan got 5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

You haven't made lists for too long have you? 5 is minuscule compared to before BoG released. Back then people put Gohan thousands of times stronger than Goku.

What people thought "back then" has no relevance anymore. DBZ power levels can be inflated a lot if you like to. I prefer to keep things as low as possible for the sake of simplicity, and by the way it makes no sense for Buu to get 30+ times stronger just by training 2 hours, unless we saw Goku really being amazed by it. Buu is probably going to turn back to Fat and he will be as strong as he was during the exhibition match.
Many people also often forget you don't need a HUGE gap in this serie to beat someone.

[Lord Beerus]

Never mind that traditionally if a character is holding back it's usually stated as such.. unless the character is so grossed underpowered it's a gag. But whatever, let's just keep inserting "held back" in order to rectify our head canon even though the display and narrative never implies that. Because that's exactly what we want to see a show we're every single character just keeps holding back..

I guess that mean Mr Satan and Krillin are Perfect Cell tier. They both survived attacks from him and in neither occasion did Cell state he was holding back.

Cell was not powered up(we know this because he powers up against Goku later on) and he swatted aside Mr Satan like a fly, he used more force to hit krillin, then Mr Satan.

And for Krillin, Cell again was not at full power(since he unleashes his full power vs ssj2 Gohan). That just means krillin was durable enough to survive(just survive, he still had his back broken by the kick) a casual kick from Perfect Cell.

So, bad examples.

Even if Cell was not powered up the gap in strength between him and rest of the cast, especially Mr Satan and Cell, was insane. More enough to kills like Mr Satan and Krillin with just one hit, People are up in arms about Krillin holding his own against SSJB Goku in what was specifically stated to be a sparring match to gauge Krillin's strength, and Goku would never goin in with the intention of using all his power as he knows he could instantly kill Krillin if he did, but when Cell tries to kills Mr Satan and Krillin, and they survive his attacks, people are fine with it. Even Cell would have incentive at all to hold back when attacking someone.

The explanation given for the Android being as strong as they were was nonsense because Gero had no idea about what happened on Namek. Yet he was able to program Androids far stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyans.

Plus, if the Androids can train and get stronger, then that technically means they do have potential to tap into. You can't get stronger if they there is no strength within you to bring forth in the first place.

Non sense? Dr. Gero was a brilliant scientist acknowleged by Bulma and her father. He had had followed Goku and his cia since 22nd TB with a bug-robot that collected informations to find a ways to defeat him. He did analysis, calculations and estimations, it wasn't something totally taken out of nowhere considering in early DB he created Android 8: a cyborg that was stronger than 21st Goku before Gero even know about his existence.

Toriyama doesn't mention they had any potential, he just says that they can get stronger because they're human based..

It still illogical for him to be able create Androids far stronger than a fighter he's never encountered or a transformation he's never heard of. It reeks of asspull. Plus, we have no idea how strong Android 8 is as he never actually fights Goku.

[Overlord78]

The explanation given for the Android being as strong as they were was nonsense because Gero had no idea about what happened on Namek. Yet he was able to program Androids far stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyans.

Plus, if the Androids can train and get stronger, then that technically means they do have potential to tap into. You can't get stronger if they there is no strength within you to bring forth in the first place.

Non sense? Dr. Gero was a brilliant scientist acknowleged by Bulma and her father. He had had followed Goku and his cia since 22nd TB with a bug-robot that collected informations to find a ways to defeat him. He did analysis, calculations and estimations, it wasn't something totally taken out of nowhere considering in early DB he created Android 8: a cyborg that was stronger than 21st Goku before Gero even know about his existence.

Toriyama doesn't mention they had any potential, he just says that they can get stronger because they're human based.

Not to mention it's also possible Gero's modifications might have drastically increased their potential.

Yeah it could be and I would have no problem with that if was in fact stated somewhere.

Yeah a brilliant scientist that could make Androids stronger than Freeza who ruled most of the universe and could destroy planets with ease. Another example of Toriyama making the universe feel small when the greatest minds in the universe are located on earth. The Cell arc was full of stupid writing no matter how many excuses people come up with to justify them.

But hey at least it's better than 17 becoming god tier just by ranging a park .

[Noah]

It still illogical for him to be able create Androids far stronger than a fighter he's never encountered or a transformation he's never heard of. It reeks of asspull. Plus, we have no idea how strong Android 8 is as he never actually fights Goku.

I don't think so, he knew that Goku could increase his power by using the Kaioken, after all these years he could pretty much assume Goku got stronger due training, that's where when he did his calculations, even though I would like further explanation on the methods utilized to create 16, 17 and 18, I don't think they did a bad job in trying to giving us a reasoning about why these androids were so strong.

I remember Goku stating in the manga that Android 8 is stronger than him and could solve things with ease if he wanted and Eighter replied he don't like to fight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Given how strong many of the members of Team Universe 7 are becoming, I'm beginning to see something of a pattern.

It looks as though we have upper-tier fighters in terms of strength, at least at a baseline. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Buu, Piccolo, and 17 are all looking to be around the same strength level relatively speaking, excluding the Saiyans' transformations.

Then we have 18, Tenshinhan, Roshi, and Krillin, whom are occupying the lower but more tricky tier of fighters, whom will be relying more on techniques and coordinated strategy.

[TheMikado]

I guess that mean Mr Satan and Krillin are Perfect Cell tier. They both survived attacks from him and in neither occasion did Cell state he was holding back.

Cell was not powered up(we know this because he powers up against Goku later on) and he swatted aside Mr Satan like a fly, he used more force to hit krillin, then Mr Satan.

And for Krillin, Cell again was not at full power(since he unleashes his full power vs ssj2 Gohan). That just means krillin was durable enough to survive(just survive, he still had his back broken by the kick) a casual kick from Perfect Cell.

So, bad examples.

Even if Cell was not powered up the gap in strength between him and rest of the cast, especially Mr Satan and Cell, was insane. More enough to kills like Mr Satan and Krillin with just one hit, People are up in arms about Krillin holding his own against SSJB Goku in what was specifically stated to be a sparring match to gauge Krillin's strength, and Goku would never goin in with the intention of using all his power as he knows he could instantly kill Krillin if he did, but when Cell tries to kills Mr Satan and Krillin, and they survive his attacks, people are fine with it. Even Cell would have incentive at all to hold back when attacking someone.

The explanation given for the Android being as strong as they were was nonsense because Gero had no idea about what happened on Namek. Yet he was able to program Androids far stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyans.

Plus, if the Androids can train and get stronger, then that technically means they do have potential to tap into. You can't get stronger if they there is no strength within you to bring forth in the first place.

Non sense? Dr. Gero was a brilliant scientist acknowleged by Bulma and her father. He had had followed Goku and his cia since 22nd TB with a bug-robot that collected informations to find a ways to defeat him. He did analysis, calculations and estimations, it wasn't something totally taken out of nowhere considering in early DB he created Android 8: a cyborg that was stronger than 21st Goku before Gero even know about his existence.

Toriyama doesn't mention they had any potential, he just says that they can get stronger because they're human based..

It still illogical for him to be able create Androids far stronger than a fighter he's never encountered or a transformation he's never heard of. It reeks of asspull. Plus, we have no idea how strong Android 8 is as he never actually fights Goku.

I don't understand this at all, nothing implies Cell was trying to kill Krillin, he literally had no reason to. He just hit him hard enough to KO him instantly and without strain whatsoever. Same with Mr. Satan and I specifically mentioned gag characters..!

If Cell had visibly strained in hitting Krillin like Goku seemed to do against Cell you would have a point. But Cell hardly put any effort in at all. The whole first part of that was showing the gap between Cell and Krillin was so great that Cell didn't even notice. We don't even know if Cell meant to KO Krillin or if it was accidental because he was so powerful. Those are horribly examples to try to prove a point with when they primarily reinforce what we are saying. If the power gap is so huge the opponent should be dealt with with minimum effort even when holding back.

[Cabba]

It is pretty neat, GT was right all along
U7 team strength:
Goku>Vegeta>17>Gohan>Buu>Piccolo>18>x>y>roshi
x and y could be either krillin or tien, as i dont know if Tien is gonna get a boost or not as well making stronger than krillin.

EDIT:
I guess this episode also confirms base goku is stronger than old majin SS2 tier. Proving those who said base goku was only as strong as namek freeza wrong

You haven't made lists for too long have you? 5 is minuscule compared to before BoG released. Back then people put Gohan thousands of times stronger than Goku.

Those were greatly exaggerating mystifying (pun intended) their head cannon, before in DBZ even a difference of 2k made your opponent your bitch. could be the same scenario
Not to mention it never settled whether Super Buu was stronger than Kid bu or not, and also Goku never got the chance to charge SS3 to its max power. You can have an opinion on it, but its not fact

Sure Gohan was more powerful but not by orders of magnitude, it was more like the difference between 17 and 18 or 17/16 if you like

[Lord Beerus]

I don't understand this at all, nothing implies Cell was trying to kill Krillin, he literally had no reason to. He just hit him hard enough to KO him instantly and without strain whatsoever. Same with Mr. Satan and I specifically mentioned gag characters..!

What it is you don't understand? Even if Cell put no effort into attacking Krillin, that alone would have strong enough to kill him given the huge gap in strength. And being a gag character doesn't make you invincible. Mr Satan being a gag character didn't save him from being shot in cold blood and nearly dying. And Mr Satan wasn't even treated a gag character initially. He was portrayed as legitimately the strongest martial artist in the world with a huge chip on his shoulder. I guess this mea

If Cell had visibly strained in hitting Krillin like Goku seemed to do against Cell you would have a point. But Cell hardly put any effort in at all. The whole first part of that was showing the gap between Cell and Krillin was so great that Cell didn't even notice. We don't even know if Cell meant to KO Krillin or if it was accidental because he was so powerful. Those are horribly examples to try to prove a point with when they primarily reinforce what we are saying. If the power gap is so huge the opponent should be dealt with with minimum effort even when holding back.

Cell doesn't need to show visible strain in attacking Krillin. That's not the main point. The main point is that with such a huge gap in strength, Cell could literally wipe Krillin off the face of the Earth with the flick of wrist. Cell had already dispilyed a killing mentality with everyone he encountered. So why no all of sudden would he feel compelled just to knock out Krillin? It makes no sense. Goku's intention where clear when he turned SSJB against Krillin: he wanted to see how Krillin could handle himself against a very strong opponent. Goku knows if he went all out, he could instantly kill Krillin. That's why he wanted measure just how resolve Krillin would have under an extreme circumstance.

The main complaint around the whole Krillin/SSJB Goku scenario is that because of the huge gap in strength between the two of them, that even when Goku is drastcially holding back as SSJB, Krillin should have been overwhelmed instantly and should not haved performed as well as he did in the circumstances. And yet we see instances where such Mr Satan getting swatted like fly into a mountain by Cell, Cell kicking Krillin in head, Bootenks kicking Tien in the head and Bulma getting slapped by Beerus, but apparently those are exceptions to the rule.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The current power chains that people are currently making look ridiculous due to previous interpretations of power chains from past arcs being wrong.

Ultimate Gohan was never multifold stronger than Goku. Super Boox2>Ultimate Gohan, so that puts a cap on the gap between Goku & Gohan and it's nowhere near 2x.

Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest form of Boo and Goku can kill him if he charges up his SSJ3 ki for a minute, so if any current power chain exists, it will conform to what was stated, not the fandoms arbitrary chains. Goku's admission of inferiority to Super Boo while Goku is stronger than a superior Boo at full power would mean:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(Full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku.
Goku throughout the Boo arc cannot naturally wield his full SSJ3 power and needs to charge ki for a minute to reach full power. Therefore Goku's admission is just taking into account the power that he can actually utilize. If Super Boo let Goku charge ki for a minute, which he wouldn't, Goku would be stronger.

[Lord Beerus]

It still illogical for him to be able create Androids far stronger than a fighter he's never encountered or a transformation he's never heard of. It reeks of asspull. Plus, we have no idea how strong Android 8 is as he never actually fights Goku.

I don't think so, he knew that Goku could increase his power by using the Kaioken, after all these years he could pretty much assume Goku got stronger due training, that's where when he did his calculations, even though I would like further explanation on the methods utilized to create 16, 17 and 18, I don't think they did a bad job in trying to giving us a reasoning about why these androids were so strong.

I remember Goku stating in the manga that Android 8 is stronger than him and could solve things with ease if he wanted and Eighter replied he don't like to fight.

If he collected his data properly in regards to the Kaioken then he would have know that Goku has issues when multiplying potency of the form. So the Kaioken is really a non-issue. The gulf in strength between what Goku could do in the Saiyan arc and what Goku could do after Namek is insanely large. So you expect me to believe that because of an extremely flawed multiplier technique he programmed the Androids to be far stronger than Freeza, Cell (his own creation!) and Super Saiyans? I don't buy that for a second.

Also, Goku never states that Android 8 is stronger than him. When Android 8 is released from his cage, he just says it's bad to kill when he's ordered by Ninja Murasaki to kill Goku. There's never any mention of his strength compared to Goku. The best we get is that Goku stating that Android 8 looks strong when he tells Goku that he thinks fighting is bad and that he's scared to fight.