Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:03 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am For what it's worth, DB Legends had an event that put Super Vegito (from the Buu Saga) against both SSB Goku and Vegeta. And he was shown with a sizeable advantage.

Likewise, the same game made Nuova Shenron (from GT) a match for SSG Shallot, who should be weaker than SSB Goku.
Hmm that's interesting. I recall the line about fusions was only in the extended cut so maybe they were going by the theatrical version. I remember when BoG was first released wondering why fusion wasn't brought up. I thought they didn't have the Potara available and maybe Beerus wouldn't be patient enough for Vegeta to learn the Fusion Dance so asking Shenron for the SSJG was the quickest option. There's still Goku saying that he didn't think this realm of power could exist or something like that. I don't know how that could be reconciled with God being weaker than SSJ Vegetto unless Goku meant he didn't think it was possible for an individual non-fusion Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:13 pm

Cipher wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:45 am The stamina issues are apparently maintained. Goku says he doesn't have long.

We just have to take the manga at its word--that with his current level of training in UI (it's been a minute since Moro), Sign pulls together enough benefits from both UI and Goku's own comfort/drives from his emotions to give it a practical edge over the silver-haired form. This wasn't the case against Moro, but Goku's been through more both on a UI-practice front and emotional reflection one since then. Passion > intentional dispassion. At least for Goku.
Thank you for the response.

So, embracing his emotions in Sign is what allowed Goku to surpass the silver-haired ultra instinct, Vegeta’s ultra ego and Gas, apparently in this order. That’s a huge difference to how it performed against Moro. Probably the logic is the same as when Bardock fought Gas, and as you mentioned the practice with ultra instinct in all his forms.

I wonder if he has room for improvement or finds out a way to keep his heart in the right condition to perform at full capacity. Maybe a strong will to live and compassion for others?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:54 pm

I get it, but it makes no sense because Goku says he's now slightly stronger than Gas, and Sign is a massively weaker version of the UI he was using when Gas was kicking their ass. There's no way controlling his emotions should make up a gap that vast.

Obviously its canon and has to be accepted, but it doesn't make any sense IMO and kind of sucks as a plot device.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:06 pm

Can't Gas have just weakened to the point that Ultra Instinct Sign does just surpass him no?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:06 pm Can't Gas have just weakened to the point that Ultra Instinct Sign does just surpass him no?
It's possible, although why didn't Vegeta let him visibly injured? He was above silver UI, if he was weakening Gas, that was not properly conveyed. If Sign is enough, UE should've been dealing more damage, yet Gas was never on the losing end.
There's also the fact that Gas would've needed to be greatly weakened, in order to drop from the top of the list to below Sign. I also doubt Goku wouldn't have picked up on that and one shot him with UI.

I guess Goku is using Sign + that determination boost Bardock used. Meaning he gets a boost bigger than UI. Which isn't that big of a deal, the problem to me is that it's all guessing from our end. There's no explanation to any of this. This has become so convoluted and intricate without a single comment about it, not from Goku, Vegeta, or even from Whis who probably is following all of this from wherever he is.
I mean, the latest developments are way too complex to let it up to the reader to understand what's going on by now. It's like if instead of Goku and Cell explaining grade 3's drawbacks, it was up to the reader to figure it out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:20 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:06 pm Can't Gas have just weakened to the point that Ultra Instinct Sign does just surpass him no?
It's possible, although why didn't Vegeta let him visibly injured? He was above silver UI, if he was weakening Gas, that was not properly conveyed. If Sign is enough, UE should've been dealing more damage, yet Gas was never on the losing end.
There's also the fact that Gas would've needed to be greatly weakened, in order to drop from the top of the list to below Sign. I also doubt Goku wouldn't have picked up on that and one shot him with UI.

I guess Goku is using Sign + that determination boost Bardock used. Meaning he gets a boost bigger than UI. Which isn't that big of a deal, the problem to me is that it's all guessing from our end. There's no explanation to any of this. This has become so convoluted and intricate without a single comment about it, not from Goku, Vegeta, or even from Whis who probably is following all of this from wherever he is.
I mean, the latest developments are way too complex to let it up to the reader to understand what's going on by now. It's like if instead of Goku and Cell explaining grade 3's drawbacks, it was up to the reader to figure it out.
They have been hinting at Goku mastering Ui in his own way. Whis has been telling him this throughout the arc. Basically he has been saying: “Your too emotional. This is why Ui hasn’t been working for you well. Stop copying me. And find a way to make it work for you.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:27 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:06 pm Can't Gas have just weakened to the point that Ultra Instinct Sign does just surpass him no?
In the real-time 2 minutes since he was demolishing MUI and UE together?

No.

Unless you imagine Vegeta's SSJBE would also surpass Gas, even though he was beating a stronger form seconds before Goku got involved.

There's no sense to make of it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:44 am

In the manga Jiren was fighting evenly with Ultra Instinct Goku one minute then was having trouble with Base Goku and Vegeta the next. They even said his power dropped considerably.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:34 am

Skar wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:03 pm
Thani wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am For what it's worth, DB Legends had an event that put Super Vegito (from the Buu Saga) against both SSB Goku and Vegeta. And he was shown with a sizeable advantage.

Likewise, the same game made Nuova Shenron (from GT) a match for SSG Shallot, who should be weaker than SSB Goku.
Hmm that's interesting. I recall the line about fusions was only in the extended cut so maybe they were going by the theatrical version. I remember when BoG was first released wondering why fusion wasn't brought up. I thought they didn't have the Potara available and maybe Beerus wouldn't be patient enough for Vegeta to learn the Fusion Dance so asking Shenron for the SSJG was the quickest option. There's still Goku saying that he didn't think this realm of power could exist or something like that. I don't know how that could be reconciled with God being weaker than SSJ Vegetto unless Goku meant he didn't think it was possible for an individual non-fusion Saiyan.
It's also worth to note that most games have SS4 roughly equivalent to Blue.

So, Super Saiyan Fusion=SS4=Blue.
Which would arguanly bring Base Fusion=SSGod.
Given the merging also increase the SKILL and not just the power, it fits Base Fusion could match a Blue-class opponent while being "only" SSGod-class in power just with skill, especially a very rough opponent like Broly, at least for a time.

Gogeta going Blue against FPBroly was most likely because any other transformation would have just been inefficient, which has been a theme for a while.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:39 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:34 am
Skar wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:03 pm
Thani wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:14 am For what it's worth, DB Legends had an event that put Super Vegito (from the Buu Saga) against both SSB Goku and Vegeta. And he was shown with a sizeable advantage.

Likewise, the same game made Nuova Shenron (from GT) a match for SSG Shallot, who should be weaker than SSB Goku.
Hmm that's interesting. I recall the line about fusions was only in the extended cut so maybe they were going by the theatrical version. I remember when BoG was first released wondering why fusion wasn't brought up. I thought they didn't have the Potara available and maybe Beerus wouldn't be patient enough for Vegeta to learn the Fusion Dance so asking Shenron for the SSJG was the quickest option. There's still Goku saying that he didn't think this realm of power could exist or something like that. I don't know how that could be reconciled with God being weaker than SSJ Vegetto unless Goku meant he didn't think it was possible for an individual non-fusion Saiyan.
It's also worth to note that most games have SS4 roughly equivalent to Blue.

So, Super Saiyan Fusion=SS4=Blue.
Which would arguanly bring Base Fusion=SSGod.
Given the merging also increase the SKILL and not just the power, it fits Base Fusion could match a Blue-class opponent while being "only" SSGod-class in power just with skill, especially a very rough opponent like Broly, at least for a time.

Gogeta going Blue against FPBroly was most likely because any other transformation would have just been inefficient, which has been a theme for a while.
But Ikari Broly also peaked around SSJB level, so SSJ Broly is way beyond that and he was dead even with SSJ Gogeta. Broly is a very fast learner, so any tactical advantage Gogeta has would fate after a while. Base dusion = SSJB is more appropriate.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:02 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:34 amIt's also worth to note that most games have SS4 roughly equivalent to Blue.

So, Super Saiyan Fusion=SS4=Blue.
Which would arguanly bring Base Fusion=SSGod.
Given the merging also increase the SKILL and not just the power, it fits Base Fusion could match a Blue-class opponent while being "only" SSGod-class in power just with skill, especially a very rough opponent like Broly, at least for a time.

Gogeta going Blue against FPBroly was most likely because any other transformation would have just been inefficient, which has been a theme for a while.
So we have two seperate sources for SSJ4 and Blue being compared to Z SSJ Vegetto. A guidebook for SSJ4, DB Legends for Blue, and some games having SSJ4 equal to Blue. I'm not sure how true they are but it's interesting that SSJ Vegetto is still used as a major benchmark for these higher transformations introduced after the Buu saga.

The line about fusion in BoG might be the only thing that conflicts with these. I assume that was from Toriyama but I'm not sure if it was in the novelization (or if BoG had one like Broly?). It would definitely make powerups a little less crazy since Freeza and 17 would be close to SSJ Vegetto or slightly weaker rather than vastly surpassing SSJ3 Vegetto.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:08 pm

The Broly movie and probably safe to say the Future Trunks arc showed that Super Saiyan Blue is probably at best on par with Base fusion.

So you can likely wave the Battle of Gods line off now especially as Goku had no idea what Super Saiyan God was anyway.

All he said was fusion wouldn't be enough. So he tried something else. Probably now you could say he'd have just done better had he fused after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:21 pm

Also, people need to remember that Fusions aren't static. They grow as the fusees grow, exponentially by the looks of it as well based on Gogeta's performance against Broly compared to Vegito against Gohan-Buu.

Which makes sense, as they represent the enhanced potential of the fusees combined and expanded beyond what they can individually achieve.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:55 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:08 pmSo you can likely wave the Battle of Gods line off now especially as Goku had no idea what Super Saiyan God was anyway.

All he said was fusion wouldn't be enough. So he tried something else. Probably now you could say he'd have just done better had he fused after all.
I always like to take direct statements at face value. Someone took the time to write in that comparison so whoever did probably assumed it was true. If it wasn't from Toriyama, that gives some leeway and may not necessarily be what he intended. No way for to know for sure but it's good that there's some source implying they're weaker than Buu saga Vegetto. It also wouldn't require God to have a multiplier/boost of a few hundred times and maybe more than the other transformations combined.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:22 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:21 pm Also, people need to remember that Fusions aren't static. They grow as the fusees grow, exponentially by the looks of it as well based on Gogeta's performance against Broly compared to Vegito against Gohan-Buu.

Which makes sense, as they represent the enhanced potential of the fusees combined and expanded beyond what they can individually achieve.
This. Yes. Fusion isn't like a cloth or armor they wear that never changes or that is independent of whoever uses it.

In Z, the FP of Goku and Vegeta is a 10 for each, if they fuse they become, IDK, 100.
And SSG was implied to be like 110.
After the god forms, they no longer have a FP of 10, it's 150 now... so when they fuse they no longer remain below SSG's 110, just because in BoG they said that fusion <SSG. They now become 500 when fused. They were both weaker than SSG, so their fusion couldn't touch that tier, but then they've become stronger individually than SSG, so their fusion will be stronger as well.

It wasn't fusion per se, fusion in general what was compared unfavorably to SSG, it was Z fusion. The fusion capable at that moment in time. SS fusion wasn't SSB tier since the Buu arc, and Buuhan didn't fight and survive against a dude 50x stronger than SSB, of course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:27 pm

Yeah but we do know that Super Saiyan Blue is vastly inferior to Super Saiyan Fusion. Comment in Battle of Gods aside, we know that Goku gets a much bigger boost in power fusing and then going Super Saiyan then turning Super Saiyan Blue.

So Super Saiyan God shouldn't be near the power of Super Vegito. He'd be stronger than Ultimate Gohan but he could be like Buuhan level at most for all we know.

Super Vegito >>>> Buuhan > Vegito >> Super Saiyan God Goku > Ultimate Gohan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:32 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:27 pm Yeah but we do know that Super Saiyan Blue is vastly inferior to Super Saiyan Fusion. Comment in Battle of Gods aside, we know that Goku gets a much bigger boost in power fusing and then going Super Saiyan then turning Super Saiyan Blue.

So Super Saiyan God shouldn't be near the power of Super Vegito. He'd be stronger than Ultimate Gohan but he could be like Buuhan level at most for all we know.

Super Vegito >>>> Buuhan > Vegito >> Super Saiyan God Goku > Ultimate Gohan
Again, though, that's only AFTER they already attained the power of Super Saiyan Blue and increased their various pre-god forms significantly.

Gogeta is likely only at SSB's level in base form because Goku and Vegeta have attained so much power since they first became Vegito against Gohan-Buu.

Vegito still needed Super Saiyan to take on Gohan-Buu, and Beerus was way stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:12 pm

Why would them attaining Super Saiyan Blue individually have an impact on the strength of their Base fusion strength?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:24 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:27 pm Yeah but we do know that Super Saiyan Blue is vastly inferior to Super Saiyan Fusion. Comment in Battle of Gods aside, we know that Goku gets a much bigger boost in power fusing and then going Super Saiyan then turning Super Saiyan Blue.

So Super Saiyan God shouldn't be near the power of Super Vegito. He'd be stronger than Ultimate Gohan but he could be like Buuhan level at most for all we know.

Super Vegito >>>> Buuhan > Vegito >> Super Saiyan God Goku > Ultimate Gohan
This is not entirely true. We know SSB is vastly inferior to a Super Saiyan fusion of saiyans with the power of god, with god forms. Not to SS fusion in general, not to a SS fusion of saiyans who can hardly mantain SS3 or even have the form.
SSG stomps Z, even if it is equal to SS Vegito, SSG isn't weaker than Buuhan and it's not barely stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Come on, now.

Honestly, this is the first time I hear something like this, so I'm gonna need more if we are retconning SSB to not even be the strongest in Z, and SSG not even being enough to survive Z, specially when Toriyama went out of his way to imply SSG > SS fusion.
Base Beyond God is meant to be basically SSG... and Freeza was already way above SS just in his 1st form, so his FF should be comfortably above Buu's higher forms, and Goku beat the shit outta Freeza.
So again, Toriyama placing SSG at the pinnacle of whatever Z might produce. It was also seen when Commeson Vegeta effortlessly stomped SS3 Gotenks in the anime.

The thing is simple, fusion depends on the fusees' power. If they are a 10, the fusion is a 100; if they are 100, the fusion is 1,000. It is not a fixed multiplier/power boost.
Just like if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse after losing to the androids, Super Vegito would not have been as strong as he was vs Buuhan.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:12 pm Why would them attaining Super Saiyan Blue individually have an impact on the strength of their Base fusion strength?
Because that's how fusion works? the base form is as strong as the fusee's strongest form.
Base Vegito was blue level vs Zamasu because that's how strong his fusees were, yet in Z, he needed SS to beat Buuhan, because his base form was probably as strong as SS3 Goku.
Base Gogeta was strong as SSB Goku, yet in Z, vs Janemba he needed SS, meaning his base was probably as strong as SS3 Goku who was losing to Janemba. It doesn't mean Janemba was as strong as SS Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:30 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:27 pm Yeah but we do know that Super Saiyan Blue is vastly inferior to Super Saiyan Fusion. Comment in Battle of Gods aside, we know that Goku gets a much bigger boost in power fusing and then going Super Saiyan then turning Super Saiyan Blue.

So Super Saiyan God shouldn't be near the power of Super Vegito. He'd be stronger than Ultimate Gohan but he could be like Buuhan level at most for all we know.

Super Vegito >>>> Buuhan > Vegito >> Super Saiyan God Goku > Ultimate Gohan
Goku was Vegito and thought he stood a chance against Beerus as a Super Saiyan God, but not using Fusion. Also in both the movie and retelling, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power like he never felt before and again, he was Vegito.
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