Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Grand Marshal 1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:36 am

Issei189 wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:43 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:16 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:50 pm Koichiarator and Anilasa only caused trouble to U7 because Goku and Vegeta were trying to conserve energy for U11. I doubt Koichiarator is stronger than Gohan or that Anilasa is stronger than SS Kafla.
But did they really hold back in the beam struggle? I mean, yes, Vegeta was using SSJ2, Goku SSJG, and Freeza was at 50% Final, all preparing for the final battle. But, when they pushed back Anilaza with their power they did reach their limit in their top forms (nothing Limit Breaking of course as they didn't have to yet, and they were also saving up energy), but considering that they went all out and only Goku could really access something beyond.

So, being at a level of KK×5 Blue would be fair. But I am one of those who think that Kefla at SSJ should be on par with Blue Goku and thus her SSJ2 would be easy work for KK, unless if she was using a ×100 multiplier for SSJ, akin to Broly's forms (due to Kale of course). Even so, she shouldn't be that far from SSJ Broly with his power up still and Anilaza could go against that power (without 17's interference he was winning).
I'm pretty sure Vegeta was using SSJ since he had no lightning bolts around his aura and in the TOP, the Toei animators were pretty consistent with SSJ2's lightning bolts if SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Caulifla and SSJ2 Cabba are anything to go by.
My bad. It is true. Just rewatched the thing. You are correct.
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:02 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:44 pm Despite Goku being tired and stuff, do you think that SSJ Kefla would surpass a KK Blue if he was at max power and never took that surprise neck hit? (Beerus did say that he could barely use it after all). I have her comparable to KK Blue for that instance. But nothing above that. Which is why I give Anilaza credit. True Golden Freeza was also there.
We don’t know how much of kaioken Goku was using in that fight, so anywhere between 2-fold and 20-fold is acceptable. I think SS Kafla might be at about 10-fold and Goku was a fairly bit above that.
Well, that is up to debate. But yeah, since you accept any level of KK, I guess that we can come to an agreement. It is up to someone to adjust the ToP's power scaling after choosing a certain level of KK against Kefla.

-----------

Now, onto a question. How strong is SSJ3 FP utilized by Cumber? Personally, given how he wasn't given SSJ4, yet has access to Golden Great Ape and SSJ3, I place the form at the same power as a SSJ4 Cumber, or 10×SSJ3. I can't use any info from the manga or anime or even the game, as each time the powers are vastly different, but I think it is a good boost.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:05 am

HeroR wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:13 pm God ki comes up quite a bit actually, like with the Gods of Destruction
What comes up is not "god KI" but "divine presence" if anything.
Seriously, beyond "mortals cannot feel the ki of a god" I don't even remember God Ki being addressed or given any characteristic.
and it was Goku having god ki that drove Zamasu pass the breaking point.
I don't remember this, either

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Questrider » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:25 am

Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:26 pm lol

Toriyama's movies/plot outlines ARE THE CANON [Authority]. The anime/manga are nothing more than adaptations based on these main sources.

Freeza lasting that long against Broly will forever count.
It sounds like you got that in reverse. I have always assumed that the manga/anime are the ultimate authority.
To suggest the movies and his outlines/aka notes are the authority? I think you made a mistake.

I'm fine with a movie being inserted into canon but there should be acknowledgment of this in either the manga or the anime.
These things are basically the "copyrights" to said ideas.

For example, in the Janemba movie, Goku and Vegeta had no knowledge of becoming Gogeta in the anime. Thus- it never really happened in canon. Canon is the anime or the manga. I don't see how that can ever be argued.

Stating that his plot outlines are the authority, is frankly, quite laughable.
Your argument sounds more like head canon to me.

Plot lines are like notes. It's almost as if to say- I have this really great idea for a book but then never write it. Until he puts those notes into the recognized mediums, in this case the anime or manga, all they are are notes in a notebook or a fan service movie.
Last edited by Questrider on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Questrider » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:29 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:04 pm Well, it's Toriyama's next big chapter into the overall DBS story, so the film as a whole is canonical to the main continuity.

Anyways, I think the film does a decent enough job giving us some gauges for where the characters lie compared to one another, at least in a general sense.
I'll concede the point when and if I see this in Dragon Ball Super. Until then? It's no different than the Janemba movie or any other.
In Broly, Goku and Vegeta were fusing for the first time as if the Janemba movie never existed. So, I'm going by the old rules until they make a point of changing it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:11 am

Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:29 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:04 pm Well, it's Toriyama's next big chapter into the overall DBS story, so the film as a whole is canonical to the main continuity.

Anyways, I think the film does a decent enough job giving us some gauges for where the characters lie compared to one another, at least in a general sense.
I'll concede the point when and if I see this in Dragon Ball Super. Until then? It's no different than the Janemba movie or any other.
In Broly, Goku and Vegeta were fusing for the first time as if the Janemba movie never existed. So, I'm going by the old rules until they make a point of changing it.
First of all, double-post. Either edit in this second reply or wait until someone else responds.

Second of all, this is very much a BoG/RoF-style scenario. The basic story is very much Toriyama's next entry in his post-original manga story. The story also acknowledges that the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie, and it also adapts Toriyama's bonus chapter on Bardock from his Jaco the Patrolman manga. So yes, it does in fact count.

It's a Dragon Ball SUPER movie, therefore the next story arc in Dragon Ball SUPER, not like the DBZ movies of old. You're very much in a very small and unsubstantiated minority.

Therefore, you can't play off the events of the movie as "didn't happen", because then you'd be ignoring actual continuity and going with headcanon. The finer details, like the constant debates about the latest characters being around/above Hakaishin-level and whatnot, can be argued without agreement, but this detail here isn't up for debate. You don't have to like it, but don't spread misinformation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:15 am

In the manga SS3 Full Power Cumber seems to be on par with Top in his God of Destruction mode. Though, I don’t understand the need in creating a different SS3 version for him and his outfit is weird. It didn’t tear when he used Great Ape mode, but in that SS3 form..

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Questrider » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:22 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:11 am
Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:29 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:04 pm Well, it's Toriyama's next big chapter into the overall DBS story, so the film as a whole is canonical to the main continuity.

Anyways, I think the film does a decent enough job giving us some gauges for where the characters lie compared to one another, at least in a general sense.
I'll concede the point when and if I see this in Dragon Ball Super. Until then? It's no different than the Janemba movie or any other.
In Broly, Goku and Vegeta were fusing for the first time as if the Janemba movie never existed. So, I'm going by the old rules until they make a point of changing it.
First of all, double-post. Either edit in this second reply or wait until someone else responds.

Second of all, this is very much a BoG/RoF-style scenario. The basic story is very much Toriyama's next entry in his post-original manga story. The story also acknowledges that the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie, and it also adapts Toriyama's bonus chapter on Bardock from his Jaco the Patrolman manga. So yes, it does in fact count.

It's a Dragon Ball SUPER movie, therefore the next story arc in Dragon Ball SUPER, not like the DBZ movies of old. You're very much in a very small and unsubstantiated minority.

Therefore, you can't play off the events of the movie as "didn't happen", because then you'd be ignoring actual continuity and going with headcanon. The finer details, like the constant debates about the latest characters being around/above Hakaishin-level and whatnot, can be argued without agreement, but this detail here isn't up for debate. You don't have to like it, but don't spread misinformation.
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

You state the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie- thus, until the MOVIE is actually mentioned in the ANIME or MANGA, it doesn't COUNT. Period. That's my argument. You are simply changing the rules.

And you can call it a Dragon Bal SUPER movie all you want. Does that grant it magical canon powers?
The old movies were called Dragon Ball Z movies and did those count in canon? The Janemba movie sure didn't count. So why does Super get a pass?

Understand, I have NO issue with the new movie being established as canon. But until they DO, by way of playing this out of acknowledging this in either the manga or the anime, it didn't happen imo. It's a what-if, fan service piece. All the past movies establish things that have happened. But does it work the other way around? DOES the ANIME acknowledge the MOVIES? That's my point.

I guess we will find out when Super returns with new episodes. But I have a feeling they are going to go straight to the Molo story. Just like the manga did.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:30 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:15 am In the manga SS3 Full Power Cumber seems to be on par with Top in his God of Destruction mode. Though, I don’t understand the need in creating a different SS3 version for him and his outfit is weird. It didn’t tear when he used Great Ape mode, but in that SS3 form..
This is where I feel contradicted. Should I stick to the Manga with SSJ3FP Cumber being GoD Toppo level, or with Anime data where he is unquestionably stronger? I need to know what happens in game though. Such a weird character to scale.

The shirt point though. Lmfao so true.

Back to my point though, I think that they nerfed Cumber a lot after some fights. Could be that he was fighting non-stop. So for me Cumber in SSJ should be on par with Blue KK×5 Goku (like Anilaza let's say, or SSJ Broly) with his SSJ3 being at the level of Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, but potentially capable of taking on SSJB Evolution Vegeta and GoD Toppo with more ease. Of course I have Ultimate Kamioren at Evolution Blue Vegeta's level (due to the latest promo vid) and Cumber with FP SSJ3 should be nerfed in terms of multiplier down to 5×SSJ3 in order for him to fit in this.

I debunked myself lol. Anyway, at that level he should be a MUI and LB/SFP Jiren level threat, being taken out by them at all times, but anyone weaker shouldn't be able to deal damage to him.

For Neo Merged Zamasu, I would place him slightly above GoD Toppo given how when he faced him, he was never defeated (and we know that Hakai is useful against Zamasu even if Beerus denied it).

For Hearts, it is evident that his Base should rival a SSJG just to give his "Super" state, a Blue level. Of course I have no idea how he will face UIO or MUI Goku without powering up somehow (The universe seed will be probably taken out of Ultimate Kamioren) given the fact that he, with Neo Merged Zamasu and SSJ3FP Cumber couldn't take down SFP/LB Jiren.

Lagss. She is a character that I loved and wanted to see more of. I was a fool.

Kamin and Oren need no further statements.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:04 am

Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:22 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:11 am
Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:29 am

I'll concede the point when and if I see this in Dragon Ball Super. Until then? It's no different than the Janemba movie or any other.
In Broly, Goku and Vegeta were fusing for the first time as if the Janemba movie never existed. So, I'm going by the old rules until they make a point of changing it.
First of all, double-post. Either edit in this second reply or wait until someone else responds.

Second of all, this is very much a BoG/RoF-style scenario. The basic story is very much Toriyama's next entry in his post-original manga story. The story also acknowledges that the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie, and it also adapts Toriyama's bonus chapter on Bardock from his Jaco the Patrolman manga. So yes, it does in fact count.

It's a Dragon Ball SUPER movie, therefore the next story arc in Dragon Ball SUPER, not like the DBZ movies of old. You're very much in a very small and unsubstantiated minority.

Therefore, you can't play off the events of the movie as "didn't happen", because then you'd be ignoring actual continuity and going with headcanon. The finer details, like the constant debates about the latest characters being around/above Hakaishin-level and whatnot, can be argued without agreement, but this detail here isn't up for debate. You don't have to like it, but don't spread misinformation.
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

You state the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie- thus, until the MOVIE is actually mentioned in the ANIME or MANGA, it doesn't COUNT. Period. That's my argument. You are simply changing the rules.

And you can call it a Dragon Bal SUPER movie all you want. Does that grant it magical canon powers?
The old movies were called Dragon Ball Z movies and did those count in canon? The Janemba movie sure didn't count. So why does Super get a pass?

Understand, I have NO issue with the new movie being established as canon. But until they DO, by way of playing this out of acknowledging this in either the manga or the anime, it didn't happen imo. It's a what-if, fan service piece. All the past movies establish things that have happened. But does it work the other way around? DOES the ANIME acknowledge the MOVIES? That's my point.

I guess we will find out when Super returns with new episodes. But I have a feeling they are going to go straight to the Molo story. Just like the manga did.
Sure it does. Toriyama wrote and greenlit the story for the Broly movie just like he did RoF and BoG, only he was even more involved.

The movie also adapts a specific original manga-canon event, marking it as an origin story that supersedes what the anime already did. Also, the DBS manga already acknowledged the Broly movie in the last few chapters.

So, the natural assumption is that, as an official movie penned by the original creator, THIS is the main canon right now unless it's adapted. If you wanna contest this, I highly suggest you take this matter to another thread or make one yourself. It's clear that you feel very strongly (albeit wrongly) on this topic, so it's best that we don't clog up this thread where it's not relevant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:59 am

Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:25 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:26 pm lol

Toriyama's movies/plot outlines ARE THE CANON [Authority]. The anime/manga are nothing more than adaptations based on these main sources.

Freeza lasting that long against Broly will forever count.
It sounds like you got that in reverse. I have always assumed that the manga/anime are the ultimate authority.
To suggest the movies and his outlines/aka notes are the authority? I think you made a mistake.

I'm fine with a movie being inserted into canon but there should be acknowledgment of this in either the manga or the anime.
These things are basically the "copyrights" to said ideas.

For example, in the Janemba movie, Goku and Vegeta had no knowledge of becoming Gogeta in the anime. Thus- it never really happened in canon. Canon is the anime or the manga. I don't see how that can ever be argued.

Stating that his plot outlines are the authority, is frankly, quite laughable.
Your argument sounds more like head canon to me.

Plot lines are like notes. It's almost as if to say- I have this really great idea for a book but then never write it. Until he puts those notes into the recognized mediums, in this case the anime or manga, all they are are notes in a notebook or a fan service movie.
The definition for Canon is literally authority. Toriyama is the creator of Dragonball. His movies are solely written by him and the anime/manga are only based on his movies and his outlines. Hence why he supervises and oversees both anime and manga cause he is the authority concerning Dragonball story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Questrider » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:09 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:04 am
Questrider wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:22 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:11 am
First of all, double-post. Either edit in this second reply or wait until someone else responds.

Second of all, this is very much a BoG/RoF-style scenario. The basic story is very much Toriyama's next entry in his post-original manga story. The story also acknowledges that the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie, and it also adapts Toriyama's bonus chapter on Bardock from his Jaco the Patrolman manga. So yes, it does in fact count.

It's a Dragon Ball SUPER movie, therefore the next story arc in Dragon Ball SUPER, not like the DBZ movies of old. You're very much in a very small and unsubstantiated minority.

Therefore, you can't play off the events of the movie as "didn't happen", because then you'd be ignoring actual continuity and going with headcanon. The finer details, like the constant debates about the latest characters being around/above Hakaishin-level and whatnot, can be argued without agreement, but this detail here isn't up for debate. You don't have to like it, but don't spread misinformation.
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

You state the general events of DBS have occurred up until the start of the movie- thus, until the MOVIE is actually mentioned in the ANIME or MANGA, it doesn't COUNT. Period. That's my argument. You are simply changing the rules.

And you can call it a Dragon Bal SUPER movie all you want. Does that grant it magical canon powers?
The old movies were called Dragon Ball Z movies and did those count in canon? The Janemba movie sure didn't count. So why does Super get a pass?

Understand, I have NO issue with the new movie being established as canon. But until they DO, by way of playing this out of acknowledging this in either the manga or the anime, it didn't happen imo. It's a what-if, fan service piece. All the past movies establish things that have happened. But does it work the other way around? DOES the ANIME acknowledge the MOVIES? That's my point.

I guess we will find out when Super returns with new episodes. But I have a feeling they are going to go straight to the Molo story. Just like the manga did.
Sure it does. Toriyama wrote and greenlit the story for the Broly movie just like he did RoF and BoG, only he was even more involved.

The movie also adapts a specific original manga-canon event, marking it as an origin story that supersedes what the anime already did. Also, the DBS manga already acknowledged the Broly movie in the last few chapters.

So, the natural assumption is that, as an official movie penned by the original creator, THIS is the main canon right now unless it's adapted. If you wanna contest this, I highly suggest you take this matter to another thread or make one yourself. It's clear that you feel very strongly (albeit wrongly) on this topic, so it's best that we don't clog up this thread where it's not relevant.
Your reply finally makes a little more sense, as I was unaware of any mention of any mention of Broly in the manga. That's a start. But I still think you are misinterpreting both my tone and my point.

You said yourself and I quote: "the natural assumption", which as of yet, at least as far as the ANIME is concerned, not yet FACT until Super produces more episodes. For this to be a fact, there has to be some reference in the Super's anime. Until then, you admitted yourself that all you really have are assumptions. Futhermore, this discussion does belong here as it directly relates to just how much stock we all put in how strong Broly is, as well as the events of the movie.

Like I said, I'm all for counting it. But I'm waiting for it to actually be official. And based on the past, I'm not going to believe until I hear someone in the anime actually mention this fight. Believe me, one of the things I always hated about the movies is that they were never mentioned in Z. Thus, it made it seem like it never happened. Like Janemba. I mean think about it. As far as canon is concerned, regardless of how much involvement Toriyama had in it, it technically never happened.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:47 am

You say all that as if Toriyama himself isn't the main driving factor.

The anime hasn't returned yet, the anime has been referenced, the ORIGINAL MANGA has been referenced, and it's by the man himself.

This isn't an old DBZ movie situation. This is a BoG/RoF situation. This is the current canon until otherwise adapted out, not the other way around. It's a sequel to DBS, and it pulls directly from the original author and his specific additions to the original source material. You're treating the movie as though it's just some movie the execs decided to make for fun; it's not.

Toriyama wrote the script and designed it as the next chapter in DBS's story. The movie was advertised and stated to be the next chapter in DBS's story. The movie references the original manga and its related works that build off of it, completely ignoring all the Toei specials added to their anime adaptation of the original manga.

You have to prove that the work ISN'T the current canonical follow-up, not the other way around.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:05 am
HeroR wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:13 pm God ki comes up quite a bit actually, like with the Gods of Destruction
What comes up is not "god KI" but "divine presence" if anything.
Seriously, beyond "mortals cannot feel the ki of a god" I don't even remember God Ki being addressed or given any characteristic.
and it was Goku having god ki that drove Zamasu pass the breaking point.
I don't remember this, either

Namely, about how Hakai is a specific kind of God Ki that can erased your soul and how having God Ki allowed to used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan form without exploding.

https://youtu.be/TbL2onHCdSs?t=19 (dub)

https://youtu.be/6OZc3V9TFkY?t=26 (sub)

Yeah, Zamasu had issues before, but he really pissed off seeing Goku with divine ki.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Questrider » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:41 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:47 am You say all that as if Toriyama himself isn't the main driving factor.

The anime hasn't returned yet, the anime has been referenced, the ORIGINAL MANGA has been referenced, and it's by the man himself.

This isn't an old DBZ movie situation. This is a BoG/RoF situation. This is the current canon until otherwise adapted out, not the other way around. It's a sequel to DBS, and it pulls directly from the original author and his specific additions to the original source material. You're treating the movie as though it's just some movie the execs decided to make for fun; it's not.

Toriyama wrote the script and designed it as the next chapter in DBS's story. The movie was advertised and stated to be the next chapter in DBS's story. The movie references the original manga and its related works that build off of it, completely ignoring all the Toei specials added to their anime adaptation of the original manga.

You have to prove that the work ISN'T the current canonical follow-up, not the other way around.
I concede. You answered my questions and made a valid point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:21 pm

HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm Namely, about how Hakai is a specific kind of God Ki that can erased your soul and how having God Ki allowed to used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan form without exploding.
Kaioken Blue wasn't attributed to Godly Ki but to the "Perfect Ki Control" of Blue.
Else, he could have used it with SSGod as well.

And i honestly don't remember the tidbit about Hakai.

frankly, everything suggests "God Ki" isn't the CAUSE of Saiyans becoming gods, but the EFFECT: because Goku became a God, his Ki became godly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:37 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:30 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:15 am In the manga SS3 Full Power Cumber seems to be on par with Top in his God of Destruction mode. Though, I don’t understand the need in creating a different SS3 version for him and his outfit is weird. It didn’t tear when he used Great Ape mode, but in that SS3 form..
This is where I feel contradicted. Should I stick to the Manga with SSJ3FP Cumber being GoD Toppo level, or with Anime data where he is unquestionably stronger? I need to know what happens in game though. Such a weird character to scale.
Only the game matters.
In the game, Toppo isn't defeated by a single opponent
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pB7 ... UuWaI/edit

Tl;dr it goes:
Toppo+Dyspo vs SS3Cumber+Zamasu -> Toppo is forced to Hakaishin Mode
Hakaishin Toppo vs SS3Cumber+Zamasu -> we don't see the end of the fight.
Hakaishin Toppo+Dyspo vs Zamasu -> the Pride Troppers exhaust their energies and are almost killed, but Jiren saves the day

Shirtless Jiren vs SS3FPCumber+Zamasu+Hearts -> Cumber goes FP stating Jiren was the strongest adversary he ever fought yet. Hearts&co retire before settling who's stronger: them three together or Jiren alone.


The shirt point though. Lmfao so true.
must be the same magic as SS4 clothes lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:09 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:37 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:30 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:15 am In the manga SS3 Full Power Cumber seems to be on par with Top in his God of Destruction mode. Though, I don’t understand the need in creating a different SS3 version for him and his outfit is weird. It didn’t tear when he used Great Ape mode, but in that SS3 form..
This is where I feel contradicted. Should I stick to the Manga with SSJ3FP Cumber being GoD Toppo level, or with Anime data where he is unquestionably stronger? I need to know what happens in game though. Such a weird character to scale.
Only the game matters.
In the game, Toppo isn't defeated by a single opponent
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pB7 ... UuWaI/edit

Tl;dr it goes:
Toppo+Dyspo vs SS3Cumber+Zamasu -> Toppo is forced to Hakaishin Mode
Hakaishin Toppo vs SS3Cumber+Zamasu -> we don't see the end of the fight.
Hakaishin Toppo+Dyspo vs Zamasu -> the Pride Troppers exhaust their energies and are almost killed, but Jiren saves the day

Shirtless Jiren vs SS3FPCumber+Zamasu+Hearts -> Cumber goes FP stating Jiren was the strongest adversary he ever fought yet. Hearts&co retire before settling who's stronger: them three together or Jiren alone.


The shirt point though. Lmfao so true.
must be the same magic as SS4 clothes lol
Thank you very much for sending me the dialogues of the Universe Mission/Prison Planet Arc/Universe Conflict Arc

I can use these for some good research.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:46 pm

Excuse me for the double post, but I really needed some opinions on this.

After I read with great care the dialogues of the Universe Mission and the Prison Planet Arc and Universe Conflict Arc respectively, I have scaled all the Core Area Warriors with great detail. Any ideas as to how this can work out differently are welcome though.

So for Oren and Kamin, I decide to give them a lot of power in their Bases. Enough to keep up with Super Saiyans such as Future Trunks and Vegeta, even with Hit (who's more like his original Manga adaptation, if you know what I mean). They can easily tag-team a Super Saiyan 3 and this is evident by their performance against Kale and Caulifla. When they possess someone, then their powers simply add to each other, but the siblings need to draw out the other person's power on their own. An example is Vegeta, whose power with Oren's allowed him to trade some blows with Supressed Jiren (Base Vegeta and Oren would be unable to do so) but he couldn't draw as much power as Blue Evolution Vegeta. For Kamioren a simple multiplication of the siblings' Bases (akin to the Potara) produces a warrior exactly equal to a SSJB. For Ultimate Kamioren, I decided to give him enough power to match GoD Toppo and SSJ3 Cumber, exactly on par with Blue Evolution Vegeta, always below Ultra Instinct Omen. I have no dialogues on that, but it was shown in the most recent trailer and the trailers tend to follow the plot of the game 100%.
  • Oren = 250× Base
  • Kamin = 250× Base
  • Possessed Individuals (an addition of their powers, the Tuffles need to unlock the power of said person)
  • Kamioren = 62,500 (250×250) or SSJB
  • -Ultimate Kamioren = SSJBE or 40×SSJB
Cumber was a tough one. Had to keep his OP strength, but make him fit in the scaling without obliterating everyone but Jiren and MUI Goku. So I gauged him based on the dialogues of the game, yet I kept some of that Anime touch in his power. So, starting with his restrained state, his Ki was immense, but Goku and Vegeta, despite their surprise, were sure that if they fought him seriously, they would win. I assume that by fighting seriously, they mean going full mortal forms and perhaps SSJG to wrap things up. Of course they may refer to Blue but it wouldn't make sense later on. So, I have Restrained Cumber at a level of 25% SSJG perhaps even less. Might seem little, but trust me it makes sense. Besides, Cumber saw Golden Cooler and decided to escape. In his second encounter he is more serious and destroyed his jacket, using his Base form which unleashes his power roughly 50% of a SSJG. I had this idea that Cumber in his Base may have the ability to boost his power past his transformations, but it may be just difficult to power scale in this thing. Lol. Anyway, SSJ Cumber rivals Blue Vegito but he meets his match from the fusion and is defeated. SSJ Cumber is equivalent to 5×SSJB (for me a match for SSJ2 Kefla and SSJ Broly). Later when he faces the others again, he is faced by a Goku who is using a Kaio Ken of unknown level, but it may as well be an enhanced KK and not something massive, or else we would get a specification. Furthermore, Vegeta Xeno comments how SSJ Cumber is equal to 2 SSJ4s (comparable to SSJB) but Cumber denies it. Before that Cumber decides to use Golden Great Ape, becoming 10 times stronger. But Super Fu doesn't allow him to continue the rampage. Back to the fights, he is SSJ3 and prepares to battle Vegito Xeno SSJ4. I have him on the same level as Blue Vegito, if not slightly weaker. Of course Cumber going Golden Great Ape before, was perhaps a countermeasure to the Saiyans fusing again. So, SSJ3 Cumber is defeated by SSJ4 Vegito Xeno. Later, against Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku, SSJ3 Cumber meets his true rival and is defeated once more. MUI has a power even beyond understanding to even the Xenos. Later, in U11 he challenges Toppo and Dyspo, remains unscathed and then Goku, who defeats him (perhaps in MUI). Against Jiren with the aid of his colleagues, he says that Jiren is the strongest opponent he faced, going SSJ3 FP but still being defeated. This makes me think if Jiren got stronger than Goku, but it could be that Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen against SSJ3 Cumber.
  • Cumber (Restrained) = 25% SSJG
  • Cumber (Base/Evil Saiyan) = 50% SSJG
  • -(SSJ) = SSJB KK×5
  • -(SSJ2) = SSJB KK×10
  • -(SSJ3) = 40× SSJB or SSJBE
  • -(Golden Great Ape) = 50× SSJB or UIO
  • -(SSJ3 FP) = SSJ3 Cumber ×2
Zamasu was little more easy than Cumber. I placed Corrupted Giant Merged Zamasu at the level below 1st Omen Goku. Naturally, he would get stronger and for me he got 20 times more powerful. First Trunks says: "Damn… His ki was nothing before compared to now…!". Then SSJ2 Kefla (who for no reason doesn't need to be stronger than her ToP self) challenges him and pushes him to become a little serious. Of course SSJ2 Kefla's power should be just Blue×4 but her final power up against 2nd Omen probably gave her a massive 5 times boost to reach KK×20 in power and thus be able to create lethal attacks for Goku. But I never measured that in my scales as it was a 1 time thing. This Kefla should be 5×Blue, with Neo Merged Zamasu toying with her initially. But when he faces off against Dyspo and Toppo is when is gets interesting. He, with SSJ3 Cumber (fights the two by himself), can hold their ground against Base/Aura of a God Toppo (Blue level) and Dyspo, presumably in his Super Maximum Light Speed Mode. Toppo goes GoD Mode and challenges the two, holding them back. Then he rushes against Zamasu but is unable to finish him off. The two seem to be nearly in the same power level. And when Toppo and Dyspo are nearly out of energy, Zamasu is interrupted from dealing some killing blows by Jiren. Even with the help of Hearts and Cumber, they can't defeat Super Full Power/Limit Breaking Jiren. So, for Zamasu, I will give him a 25×Blue level, below Toppo's GoD Mode of 30×Blue but his immortality is what saves him.
  • Neo Merged Zamasu (Halo Form) = 25× SSJB
Hearts is the second easiest of them all. Thing is he doesn't have many feats and thus, I decided to use just a little bit of the anime as a reference, which ties well with the game. Assuming that his Super form would make him 50 times stronger like a Super Saiyan, his power would be around 10% of SSJG in Base, still stronger than a few SSJ3s. His Super state is equivalent to Blue. I guess that it is Hearts' hacks that give him the edge, such as his gravity powers and potentially the fact that he will absorb the Universe Seed himself in the future to challenge MUI Goku. I mean even with FP SSJ3 Cumber and Neo Merged Zamasu whose might rivals Hakaishin Toppo, they couldn't defeat Jiren's full might. For now, I can't have him beyond SSJB unless he shows something in the next Universe Mission or episode.
  • Hearts = 10% SSJG
  • -(Super) = SSJB
Lagss should be the weakest out of all. She is said to have quite the power level, but her abilities are what matter. Plus she hot. Imo. Don't kill me... Anyway, I will be generous and give her the edge in raw power than the Tuffle siblings, as, unlike them, she can't fuse possess or transform. So I have her equal to a SSJ3. Of course, I could follow the anime and have her roughly at SSJ level (Trunks could very well push her back) but " Lagss is the sole survivor of the Glass tribe. Not only does she possess a special ability, her battle power is also pretty high too, you know?", being her introduction. A pretty high power level with recent data should be at high level mortal forms. Feeling generous with my waifu. Not that she plays a significant role. Ozotto should be able to take her down easily with confidence, so without him being God level, he can bring a SSJ3 opponent to their knees.
  • Lagss = SSJ3
For these calculations I have in mind the following:

SSJ4 = 4,000× Base (but XGoku and XVegeta have vastly superior Base to their CC counterparts, thus are near Blue level, but slightly weaker)
SSJG = 12,500× Base
SSJB = 5× SSJG
GoD Mode = 30× SSJB
Blue Evolution = 40× SSJB

Ultra Instinct Omen = 50× SSJB
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 150× SSJB or 3× UIO (I initially had it at 2× UIO, but I think that once Goku got his Rage Boost in the ToP to overwhelm Jiren, he maintained it as part of the form. Thus, his power increase is superior to Jiren's)

Supressed Jiren = 40× SSJB
Full Power Jiren = 100× SSJB
Super Full Power/Limit Breaking Jiren = 125× SSJB

Vegito Blue > XVegito 4 (near equals) ≈ Golden Great Ape Cumber perhaps stronger, but below MUI and SFP/LB Jiren

GoD Toppo > Neo Merged Zamasu (a didference of 5 SSJBs) >>>> SSJ2 Kefla (the arrows from Zamasu to Kefla mean roughly 4 times stronger)

Toppo, Dyspo, Kefla, Hit and other secondary characters have no indication of being stronger than in their ToP peaks. Jiren got slightly stronger ever since, Goku and Vegeta have their post ToP Bases and Cumber doesn't get weaker with each fight. The Xenos are (I think) the same as the Demigra Assault Saga Xenos.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:24 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:21 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm Namely, about how Hakai is a specific kind of God Ki that can erased your soul and how having God Ki allowed to used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan form without exploding.
Kaioken Blue wasn't attributed to Godly Ki but to the "Perfect Ki Control" of Blue.
Else, he could have used it with SSGod as well.

And i honestly don't remember the tidbit about Hakai.

frankly, everything suggests "God Ki" isn't the CAUSE of Saiyans becoming gods, but the EFFECT: because Goku became a God, his Ki became godly.
Perfect Ki control is God Ki. If it wasn't, by that logic Goku should be able to used the Kaioken in his normal Super Saiyan forms since he learned perfect ki control in his base form in Whis' staff. Also, Super Saiyan God is more than twenty times weaker than Blue from what we have seen in the TOP. So why would he used Super Saiyan God with Kaioken?

Goku even in Blue isn't really a god as Black himself pointed out. Just a mortal cloaked in godly power.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:52 pm

HeroR wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:24 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:21 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm Namely, about how Hakai is a specific kind of God Ki that can erased your soul and how having God Ki allowed to used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan form without exploding.
Kaioken Blue wasn't attributed to Godly Ki but to the "Perfect Ki Control" of Blue.
Else, he could have used it with SSGod as well.

And i honestly don't remember the tidbit about Hakai.

frankly, everything suggests "God Ki" isn't the CAUSE of Saiyans becoming gods, but the EFFECT: because Goku became a God, his Ki became godly.
Perfect Ki control is God Ki. If it wasn't, by that logic Goku should be able to used the Kaioken in his normal Super Saiyan forms since he learned perfect ki control in his base form in Whis' staff. Also, Super Saiyan God is more than twenty times weaker than Blue from what we have seen in the TOP. So why would he used Super Saiyan God with Kaioken?

Goku even in Blue isn't really a god as Black himself pointed out. Just a mortal cloaked in godly power.
Goku and Vegeta become Gods using both SSG and SSB. Deities cannot have their Ki felt by humans, and this is exactly what happens when Goku / Vegeta transforms (something said several times in DBS).

Black calls them humans because essentially they are actually human and need to use a transformation to become gods.

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