Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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QuakingStar
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:52 pm

Cabba was not Vegeta's equal, he was lying. He proves this when he goes on to SMILE and tank Cabbas punch with his forehead. Vegeta was testing and training Cabba. Also the whole Goku testing people thing was referring to Krillin and 17. I saw the tweet that was made referring to that already.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm

With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:32 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:52 pm Cabba was not Vegeta's equal, he was lying. He proves this when he goes on to SMILE and tank Cabbas punch with his forehead. Vegeta was testing and training Cabba. Also the whole Goku testing people thing was referring to Krillin and 17. I saw the tweet that was made referring to that already.
Vegeta has no reason to lie at all.
Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
Yes. Orange Piccolo managed to resist quite a lot of punishment from someone stronger than Broly. He should be UIO level at the minimum.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:37 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:32 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:52 pm Cabba was not Vegeta's equal, he was lying. He proves this when he goes on to SMILE and tank Cabbas punch with his forehead. Vegeta was testing and training Cabba. Also the whole Goku testing people thing was referring to Krillin and 17. I saw the tweet that was made referring to that already.
Vegeta has no reason to lie at all.

Except he did, as he smiled and tanked Cabbas punch to the foreheard before owning him.
Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
Yes. Orange Piccolo managed to resist quite a lot of punishment from someone stronger than Broly. He should be UIO level at the minimum.
I agree on this, Orange Piccolo is indeed that strong. It took Shenron to pull this form from within him as a "small bonus" but it made one hell of a difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:01 am

If the manga's interpretation remains consistent with Super Hero , then Orange Piccolo being roughly on par with True UI Goku and UE Vegeta seems reasonable. Akira Toriyama was very upfront about Orange Piccolo obtaining power "on par" with Goku and Vegeta. That doesn't have to mean he reached power equal to their own. Toriyama has used the word fairly loosely when Goku described fusion requiring two fighters to be on par with each other and the possibility of fusing with Gohan who was still much weaker than him. It should at least indicate that Toriyama believed Orange Piccolo was at least in range of Goku and Vegeta's level.

I'm sure Goku and Vegeta will reach another level before Super Hero but that would be my interpretation based on what we know so far.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:32 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
Yes. Orange Piccolo managed to resist quite a lot of punishment from someone stronger than Broly. He should be UIO level at the minimum.
Not quite. Only Completed Cell Max was stated to have power surpassing Broly. Cell Max as we know it was incomplete. And while Orange Piccolo fought well, he was blatantly much weaker than Cell Max. Cell Max landed more blows and was unaffected by Piccolo's whereas Piccolo was completely battered, nearly dead. If anything, I would say this is closer to Broly and Golden Frieza where Golden Frieza was blatantly nowhere near Broly's level. And from what the novelization tells us, Frieza's hits were at least powerful enough so that Broly wouldn't want to take them head-on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:10 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:37 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:32 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:52 pm Cabba was not Vegeta's equal, he was lying. He proves this when he goes on to SMILE and tank Cabbas punch with his forehead. Vegeta was testing and training Cabba. Also the whole Goku testing people thing was referring to Krillin and 17. I saw the tweet that was made referring to that already.
Vegeta has no reason to lie at all.

Except he did, as he smiled and tanked Cabbas punch to the foreheard before owning him.
Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
Yes. Orange Piccolo managed to resist quite a lot of punishment from someone stronger than Broly. He should be UIO level at the minimum.
I agree on this, Orange Piccolo is indeed that strong. It took Shenron to pull this form from within him as a "small bonus" but it made one hell of a difference.
Did you not see the trashing SS Vegeta did to base Cabba? SS Cabba wasn't at full power when he threw that punch that Vegeta tanked.

Goku9001, Dr. He do said on the film that Cell Max was completed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:10 pm
Goku9001, Dr. He do said on the film that Cell Max was completed.
I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm

Yeah, the one thing Cell Max didn't have was a neocortex.

So, let's pretend he does get a functioning brain, how much powerful do you guys think Cell Max would be? all that power controlled by an actual brain and not by just reflexes, would that put him above Black Freeza? above Beerus?

How would they deal with a threat like that? would a Broly, Goku, Vegeta, Granola, Gohan team up suffice?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:10 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:37 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:32 pm
Vegeta has no reason to lie at all.

Except he did, as he smiled and tanked Cabbas punch to the foreheard before owning him.


Yes. Orange Piccolo managed to resist quite a lot of punishment from someone stronger than Broly. He should be UIO level at the minimum.
I agree on this, Orange Piccolo is indeed that strong. It took Shenron to pull this form from within him as a "small bonus" but it made one hell of a difference.
Did you not see the trashing SS Vegeta did to base Cabba? SS Cabba wasn't at full power when he threw that punch that Vegeta tanked.

Goku9001, Dr. He do said on the film that Cell Max was completed.
Incorrect, he was literally pissed Vegeta was threatening to destroy Planet Sadala, he most definitely was not holding back. The one who was holding back was Vegeta.

Also yes, Cell Max was indeed complete but what was not complete was his mind control programming. He was simply going Berserk like Broly did. So Cell Max Berserk > Broly FPSS Berserk. Cell Max controlled would like beat Broly FPSS controlled.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:15 pm

Of course, Cell Max will never reappear (at least not until the next revival in 2040), but I do wonder, if he were to get a brain, would he evolve into a Perfect Cell Max just by getting a conscious mind, like when he returned perfected without 18?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:50 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:05 pm Incorrect, he was literally pissed Vegeta was threatening to destroy Planet Sadala, he most definitely was not holding back. The one who was holding back was Vegeta.

Also yes, Cell Max was indeed complete but what was not complete was his mind control programming. He was simply going Berserk like Broly did. So Cell Max Berserk > Broly FPSS Berserk. Cell Max controlled would like beat Broly FPSS controlled.
He can be pissed all he wants, he's still damaged by being hit by an opponent 50 times stronger than him. SS Cabba was not at full power.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.
He did. Cell Max is complete apart from the control program they needed.

Mageta: When will Cell Max be complete?
Hedo: Don't worry, with the Gammas here, there's no need for Cell Max.
Mageta: I asked you when?
Hedo: Guess, this guy... Alright. He'll probably take a bit longer.
Mageta: I thought you said he was nearly complete.
Hedo: Cell Max himself is already finished, but it will take more time to complete his mind control program.
Mageta: How long do you expect me to wait?
Hedo: If you'll pardon me for saying commander Mageta, you were the one that told me to create 'unimaginable power', even if it takes a while.
Mageta: Enough already! I don't care, just activate Cell Max!
Hedo: Don't rush it, commander Mageta. He's a far greater monster than the original Cell ever was.
Mageta: B-but he'd be the perfect means of showing off the power of the RR!
Hedo: Still, if we unleashed him on the world in his current state, it would be a disaster!
Mageta: Why is that?
Hedo: He'd be uncontrollable. Do you really want to destroy the world you were planning to rule?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:50 pm He can be pissed all he wants, he's still damaged by being hit by an opponent 50 times stronger than him. SS Cabba was not at full power.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.
He did. Cell Max is complete apart from the control program they needed.

Mageta: When will Cell Max be complete?
Hedo: Don't worry, with the Gammas here, there's no need for Cell Max.
Mageta: I asked you when?
Hedo: Guess, this guy... Alright. He'll probably take a bit longer.
Mageta: I thought you said he was nearly complete.
Hedo: Cell Max himself is already finished, but it will take more time to complete his mind control program.
Mageta: How long do you expect me to wait?
Hedo: If you'll pardon me for saying commander Mageta, you were the one that told me to create 'unimaginable power', even if it takes a while.
Mageta: Enough already! I don't care, just activate Cell Max!
Hedo: Don't rush it, commander Mageta. He's a far greater monster than the original Cell ever was.
Mageta: B-but he'd be the perfect means of showing off the power of the RR!
Hedo: Still, if we unleashed him on the world in his current state, it would be a disaster!
Mageta: Why is that?
Hedo: He'd be uncontrollable. Do you really want to destroy the world you were planning to rule?
Yes. That is what I said.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:43 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:41 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:50 pm He can be pissed all he wants, he's still damaged by being hit by an opponent 50 times stronger than him. SS Cabba was not at full power.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.
He did. Cell Max is complete apart from the control program they needed.

Mageta: When will Cell Max be complete?
Hedo: Don't worry, with the Gammas here, there's no need for Cell Max.
Mageta: I asked you when?
Hedo: Guess, this guy... Alright. He'll probably take a bit longer.
Mageta: I thought you said he was nearly complete.
Hedo: Cell Max himself is already finished, but it will take more time to complete his mind control program.
Mageta: How long do you expect me to wait?
Hedo: If you'll pardon me for saying commander Mageta, you were the one that told me to create 'unimaginable power', even if it takes a while.
Mageta: Enough already! I don't care, just activate Cell Max!
Hedo: Don't rush it, commander Mageta. He's a far greater monster than the original Cell ever was.
Mageta: B-but he'd be the perfect means of showing off the power of the RR!
Hedo: Still, if we unleashed him on the world in his current state, it would be a disaster!
Mageta: Why is that?
Hedo: He'd be uncontrollable. Do you really want to destroy the world you were planning to rule?
Yes. That is what I said.
No, you didn't. You said mental program and that's not what Hedo is referring to. Hedo is talking about the program that will control Cell Max not give him a brain. He already has that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:29 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:43 am
Yes. That is what I said.
No, you didn't. You said mental program and that's not what Hedo is referring to. Hedo is talking about the program that will control Cell Max not give him a brain. He already has that.
[/quote]

I claimed that his physical body was complete but it was clarified that his mental state was not.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:10 pm
Goku9001, Dr. He do said on the film that Cell Max was completed.
I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.
Hedo even mentioned that was the case. Since I argued that one's mental state and control have an impact on one's battle, having an incomplete mental program would naturally hinder his battle power. So I acknowledged that his physical state was complete but I disagree that Cell Max was at full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:09 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:14 pm As well, it fits how the 2 were established as equal in their base states during the anime's Tournament of Power and could coordinate together against Saonel and Pirina. It also fits the notion that the Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks) got significantly stronger than before.
To be fair, in the anime Piccolo has been consistently portrayed as equivalent or tiered among Base Saiyans since the beginning of Dragon Ball Super, especially with Gohan.

1. Against Shisami and Tagoma.
2. Sparring sessions after Freeza was defeated.
3. Against Frost.
4. Farming training with Goku.
5. Testing match against Goku and Tenshinhan.
6. Against Saonel and Pirina.

The only outlier would be episode 88, when Piccolo was equivalent to SS2 Gohan. With the exception of that episode, Piccolo’s gains kept up with Base Gohan’s.

So, since the anime has a tendency of nerfing Piccolo, I don’t think you can use him to justify leapfrogging gains for Base Saiyans. Gohan’s stagnation in 2/3 of anime’s run, in another hand, holds Piccolo back.

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:16 pm “Godly base” was never supposed to be a thing before or after RoF anyway, Goku only absorbs SSJG into his SSJ, although that still leaves Base Goku miles beyond his Pre God self.
This plot point also was abandoned as Goku needs to transform to SSG to access its power now. Toriyama envisioned those two plot points respectively for DBZ Battle of Gods and DBZ Ressurrection of Freeza, which carried on in their anime adaptations, but the return of SSG to the table probably required him to revise the power structure in the DBS movie #1.

By the way, speaking of Kyabe’s apparent equivalence to Vegeta in the same forms. If Caulifla is much stronger than Kyabe, wouldn’t that make her much stronger than Vegeta as well? Wouldn’t that make her stronger than Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:16 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
The only problem is Broly’s power has been left in the dust by the end of the Granola Saga, but I’m leaning towards Piccolo and Gohan being very high up in the scale.

Gohan Beast >=< Cell Max >=< Gogeta Blue* > Broly > Jiren = Orange Piccolo

*Remember how Piccolo said maybe even Goku and Vegeta would fall to Cell Max?

This ticks all the boxes. Goku and Vegeta are relevant as Gogeta in the comparison Piccolo makes. Ultimate Piccolo is definitely SSJB level, and if Orange Piccolo can be UI level we don’t have to pretend AT cares about KKx20 anymore. Gohan is truly stronger than everyone, rather than just the strongest on Earth.

I can still see Cell Max being incomplete and not quite Hakaishin level though. Hedo only said his body was complete, and Cell was pretty underwhelming compared to Broly. How come Cell never broke the dimension like Gogeta and Broly?
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm Yeah, the one thing Cell Max didn't have was a neocortex.

So, let's pretend he does get a functioning brain, how much powerful do you guys think Cell Max would be? all that power controlled by an actual brain and not by just reflexes, would that put him above Black Freeza? above Beerus?

How would they deal with a threat like that? would a Broly, Goku, Vegeta, Granola, Gohan team up suffice?
I’m not sure if he’d be stronger, but if he has the brains of his perfect self then the Z Fighters he fought on Earth are dust. He’d never have been hit by Gamma 2 like that, and as Piccolo said, Gohan ain’t beating Cell without that.

The best thing we have for Cell’s power is AT saying he’s stronger than Broly, but even Moro has that going for him. I doubt Cell is even getting to fight Granola Saga characters.
This plot point also was abandoned as Goku needs to transform to SSG to access its power now. Toriyama envisioned those two plot points respectively for DBZ Battle of Gods and DBZ Ressurrection of Freeza, which carried on in their anime adaptations, but the return of SSG to the table probably required him to revise the power structure in the DBS movie #1.

By the way, speaking of Kyabe’s apparent equivalence to Vegeta in the same forms. If Caulifla is much stronger than Kyabe, wouldn’t that make her much stronger than Vegeta as well? Wouldn’t that make her stronger than Goku?
BoGs ended with Goku tapping into SSJG again to counter Beerus’ blast, so that certainly isn’t a plot point there. The RoF movie kinda pushes for SSJB being the only form, but nothing is ever made explicit in the movie nor the anime. Goku and Vegeta don’t even learn how to use God Ki in the anime until they unlock SSJB, and the description of the form implies SSJG is still in the mix. The Universe 6 Saga was already being written as the Golden Freeza Saga was being done, so any contradictory mechanics on how the forms work could’ve been bridged in the anime if there was any.

Goku and Vegeta had been going through real tough battles with Black and Zamasu in the future, so understandably they’d have powered up more than their U6 counterparts. You can see this in both mediums as Black is left in the dust by the later half of the saga and Goku and Vegeta put up resistance to Merged Zamasu’s might as AT’s drafts would note. Cabba also suggested Caulifla was only a little bit stronger than her, though given how she kicked his ass in the manga that might have been a understatement.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:50 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:05 pm Incorrect, he was literally pissed Vegeta was threatening to destroy Planet Sadala, he most definitely was not holding back. The one who was holding back was Vegeta.

Also yes, Cell Max was indeed complete but what was not complete was his mind control programming. He was simply going Berserk like Broly did. So Cell Max Berserk > Broly FPSS Berserk. Cell Max controlled would like beat Broly FPSS controlled.
He can be pissed all he wants, he's still damaged by being hit by an opponent 50 times stronger than him. SS Cabba was not at full power.
Goku9001 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:56 pm I don't think he did. He stated that Cell Max's body was complete but his mental program was not. As we know, one's mental state plays a role in one's battle power. This was already alluded to in the beginning of Super Hero where we are revealed that Jiren's monstrous power was a result of his state of mind and control over his own power.
He did. Cell Max is complete apart from the control program they needed.

Mageta: When will Cell Max be complete?
Hedo: Don't worry, with the Gammas here, there's no need for Cell Max.
Mageta: I asked you when?
Hedo: Guess, this guy... Alright. He'll probably take a bit longer.
Mageta: I thought you said he was nearly complete.
Hedo: Cell Max himself is already finished, but it will take more time to complete his mind control program.
Mageta: How long do you expect me to wait?
Hedo: If you'll pardon me for saying commander Mageta, you were the one that told me to create 'unimaginable power', even if it takes a while.
Mageta: Enough already! I don't care, just activate Cell Max!
Hedo: Don't rush it, commander Mageta. He's a far greater monster than the original Cell ever was.
Mageta: B-but he'd be the perfect means of showing off the power of the RR!
Hedo: Still, if we unleashed him on the world in his current state, it would be a disaster!
Mageta: Why is that?
Hedo: He'd be uncontrollable. Do you really want to destroy the world you were planning to rule?
Vegeta was holding back the whole time, to the point that a punch to the forehead did nothing, and Vegeta smirked. Cabba was never once a match for him in any way. Goku did the same shit basically with Caulifla and Kale, with just his own SS2, vs LSS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla he was fighting them both at the same time and overpowering them at various points despite them trying hard to beat him so they can throw him out. Goku and Vegeta did not go all out on any of those three on purpose, they were never actually anywhere near his power.

Cabba was definitely not holding back at all. While Vegeta on the other hand was SMILING with zero damage done to him.

https://youtu.be/hbCj9mxoTjo?t=445

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:56 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:16 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 pm With this new arc, it sort of is bridging the gaps between the manga and Superhero. Does this confirm that Beast Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta? And orange Piccolo is comparable to UE/TUI?
The only problem is Broly’s power has been left in the dust by the end of the Granola Saga, but I’m leaning towards Piccolo and Gohan being very high up in the scale.

Gohan Beast >=< Cell Max >=< Gogeta Blue* > Broly > Jiren = Orange Piccolo

*Remember how Piccolo said maybe even Goku and Vegeta would fall to Cell Max?

This ticks all the boxes. Goku and Vegeta are relevant as Gogeta in the comparison Piccolo makes. Ultimate Piccolo is definitely SSJB level, and if Orange Piccolo can be UI level we don’t have to pretend AT cares about KKx20 anymore. Gohan is truly stronger than everyone, rather than just the strongest on Earth.

I can still see Cell Max being incomplete and not quite Hakaishin level though. Hedo only said his body was complete, and Cell was pretty underwhelming compared to Broly. How come Cell never broke the dimension like Gogeta and Broly?
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:48 pm Yeah, the one thing Cell Max didn't have was a neocortex.

So, let's pretend he does get a functioning brain, how much powerful do you guys think Cell Max would be? all that power controlled by an actual brain and not by just reflexes, would that put him above Black Freeza? above Beerus?

How would they deal with a threat like that? would a Broly, Goku, Vegeta, Granola, Gohan team up suffice?
I’m not sure if he’d be stronger, but if he has the brains of his perfect self then the Z Fighters he fought on Earth are dust. He’d never have been hit by Gamma 2 like that, and as Piccolo said, Gohan ain’t beating Cell without that.

The best thing we have for Cell’s power is AT saying he’s stronger than Broly, but even Moro has that going for him. I doubt Cell is even getting to fight Granola Saga characters.
This plot point also was abandoned as Goku needs to transform to SSG to access its power now. Toriyama envisioned those two plot points respectively for DBZ Battle of Gods and DBZ Ressurrection of Freeza, which carried on in their anime adaptations, but the return of SSG to the table probably required him to revise the power structure in the DBS movie #1.

By the way, speaking of Kyabe’s apparent equivalence to Vegeta in the same forms. If Caulifla is much stronger than Kyabe, wouldn’t that make her much stronger than Vegeta as well? Wouldn’t that make her stronger than Goku?
BoGs ended with Goku tapping into SSJG again to counter Beerus’ blast, so that certainly isn’t a plot point there. The RoF movie kinda pushes for SSJB being the only form, but nothing is ever made explicit in the movie nor the anime. Goku and Vegeta don’t even learn how to use God Ki in the anime until they unlock SSJB, and the description of the form implies SSJG is still in the mix. The Universe 6 Saga was already being written as the Golden Freeza Saga was being done, so any contradictory mechanics on how the forms work could’ve been bridged in the anime if there was any.

Goku and Vegeta had been going through real tough battles with Black and Zamasu in the future, so understandably they’d have powered up more than their U6 counterparts. You can see this in both mediums as Black is left in the dust by the later half of the saga and Goku and Vegeta put up resistance to Merged Zamasu’s might as AT’s drafts would note. Cabba also suggested Caulifla was only a little bit stronger than her, though given how she kicked his ass in the manga that might have been a understatement.
Piccolo was referring to how they never would have gotten the chance for Gohan to even attain his new power. Cell Max if he wasn't going berserk would have killed Ultimate Gohan and Orange Piccolo from the start of their fight. Gohan Beast was so far above Cell Max that Cell Max's full force punch couldn't even get past Gohans Aura. The only other time we have seen somebodies aura do that was when Jiren was meditating in the ToP and those fodder characters were trying to attack him. Gohan Beast was THAT much stronger than Cell Max who was shitting on Orange Piccolo.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:51 am

QuakingStar wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:41 pm Vegeta was holding back the whole time, to the point that a punch to the forehead did nothing, and Vegeta smirked. Cabba was never once a match for him in any way. Goku did the same shit basically with Caulifla and Kale, with just his own SS2, vs LSS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla he was fighting them both at the same time and overpowering them at various points despite them trying hard to beat him so they can throw him out. Goku and Vegeta did not go all out on any of those three on purpose, they were never actually anywhere near his power.

Cabba was definitely not holding back at all. While Vegeta on the other hand was SMILING with zero damage done to him.

https://youtu.be/hbCj9mxoTjo?t=445
I don't know how else I can explain this. SS Vegeta completely trashed base Cabba so Cabba could never use his full power as a Super Saiyan because of the damage SS Vegeta did to him prior to transforming.

Vegeta and Cabba are equals as said by Vegeta himself.

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Goku9001
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:00 am

I would say Cabba and Vegeta were equal but Vegeta had greater fighting skill, control, stamina, and much less wasted movement than Cabba did which may result in the gap we see between Super Saiyan Vegeta and Cabba being one relating to battle experience rather than sheer power. The close-up shots emphasized Vegeta's reactions when he caught wind of Cabba's speed and narrowly dodged his attacks, and Vegeta's statement of them being equals during a beam clash does seem to suggest that their power was equal relatively on par.

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