Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 07, 2022 2:42 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:57 pm We could make that same argument for Black. He was purposefully holding back and doing nothing because he wanted Goku and Vegeta to get stronger by having their loved ones killed. And even while doing nothing, he was still strong enough that mere clones of him were ass kicking the two saiyans.
Goku Black is not 20 times stronger than Goku and Vegeta by the end of the arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat May 07, 2022 3:10 pm

Kefla is already OP as fuck, made of two SS girls who couldn't take down a tired SSG, but end up challenging 2nd Sign Goku.
Crazy, right? but it happened. Does it make sense? not so much, nobody expected her to be that powerful.
It does make sense when you factor in the potara, their relationship, and Kale being a wild card with a blank check of power. A fusion involving her can be as strong as they want it to be, they make the rules, not us.

There's nothing saying Kefla cannot be above a certain level of power. It all boils down to "that conflicts with who I believe should be stronger", or "nah, my fav character won't be surpassed as easily".
But whatever we feel or think, doesn't really mean much to the writers when they write the story, and they wrote: "this power feels different than anything prior... he's fucking strong". The closing line debunks it being about something else but strenght.
The subtext is basically this fucker doesn't make sense, he is redefining the term STRONG, now, he is doing this now; and Whis doubles the bet saying he is not even close to his FP.
If the point wasn't to put Jiren already at the top, then there would be no line about how it eclipses energies felt before, the comparison is there for a reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 07, 2022 4:14 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:24 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:12 pm
As Koitsukai said, I have no doubt Kaioshin is talking about Jiren's current power. He's seeing Jiren pushing the Genki-Dama back and reacting to it. Whether Jiren has more power or not is irrelevant because he's currently showing this amazing power.

Whis' line is a bit more than that - he chimes in to say Jiren's power like a God of Destruction, and that he is the one who reached, and perhaps surpassed, them. He firstly completes Kaioshin's line and says the current power is reaching that level, and then as a callback to Anat's line he says Jiren's full power should be on the top, if not above that tier.

There's an issue though. We don't see Jiren power up, that could be the very same Jiren Goku fought that Vegeta is talking about.
I don't think we'll agree here. Kefla and God Toppo's power aren't reaching the level of a God of Destruction. That's not what the narrative suggests and nothing that is being argued here will convince me because it's absolutely contradictory to the narrative. SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta started reaching Jiren's level by breaking their limits, multiplied their power by 20-fold, and still was not near the level of a GoD.

The way Vegeta describes Jiren's power as of episode 122 is completely different to how he reacted to Jiren as of episode 110. Regardless, both SSJ2 Kefla and UI Omen Goku (116) already far surpassed Jiren (110) especially when factoring in UI Omen Goku's Kamehameha or SSJ2 Kefla's strongest attack so Jiren logically did power up.
So Toppo… when he literally becomes a god of destruction… is not suggested to be god of destruction level?

Mind you, being on a tier doesn’t mean they’re close. All Pre Rosat SSJs are lumped together despite being worlds apart. It’s just a tier of powers that get lumped together.
Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:10 pm Kefla is already OP as fuck, made of two SS girls who couldn't take down a tired SSG, but end up challenging 2nd Sign Goku.
Crazy, right? but it happened. Does it make sense? not so much, nobody expected her to be that powerful.
It does make sense when you factor in the potara, their relationship, and Kale being a wild card with a blank check of power. A fusion involving her can be as strong as they want it to be, they make the rules, not us.

There's nothing saying Kefla cannot be above a certain level of power. It all boils down to "that conflicts with who I believe should be stronger", or "nah, my fav character won't be surpassed as easily".
But whatever we feel or think, doesn't really mean much to the writers when they write the story, and they wrote: "this power feels different than anything prior... he's fucking strong". The closing line debunks it being about something else but strenght.
The subtext is basically this fucker doesn't make sense, he is redefining the term STRONG, now, he is doing this now; and Whis doubles the bet saying he is not even close to his FP.
If the point wasn't to put Jiren already at the top, then there would be no line about how it eclipses energies felt before, the comparison is there for a reason.
I think people are mostly taking issue with how she’s threated. A worn out Goku keeps SSJ1 Kefla on her toes, and other than being compared to UIO Goku she doesn’t get the same hype as Vegetto and Jiren.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 07, 2022 4:28 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:14 pm
So Toppo… when he literally becomes a god of destruction… is not suggested to be god of destruction level?
He's a GoD in training who is explicitly stated to be a novice when it comes to using GoD abilities. The only thing we can infer from Toppo is that he's powerful enough to be a GoD candidate but that's not something that would inherently place him on the level of trained GoDs.

Merus is an angel in training and is nowhere near Beerus' level let alone the level of an Angel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 07, 2022 5:20 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:14 am Kaioken and SSB are fodder to Vegito, we already know this because Gowasu said that, to harm the empowered Fused Zamasu, they would need power far greater than the Kaioken SSB move that Goku just pulled. So the fact that Goku combined Kaioken and SSB is irrelevant. What you are saying is that the energy of the U7 team minus Vegeta is enough to match the boost given by the Potara fusion.
If you are talking about Goku when he fought Zamasu, that would be right. But I’m talking about a much stronger version of Goku using a much stronger version of kaioken, an even stronger technique than kaioken, and a ladder above that, all combined (Blue + kaioken x20 + spirit bomb + Saiyan boost). Goku has evolved so much since he fought Zamasu that he doesn’t need kaioken to fight Hit or Toppo by the time he picks a fight against Jiren.

So Goku using SSB and Kaioken in conjunction with U7 Spirit Bomb (equal to SS Kefla who couldn't simply stomp SSB Goku) allows him to rival Fused Zamasu and Vegito because…?
SS Kefla couldn’t simply stomp Goku with kaioken because she still needed to enact her own Saiyan boost. Fighting Goku allowed her to break her limits and she was able to match the raging power of spirit bomb, which in its own turn was the trigger Goku needed to activate Ultra Instinct. So, you can chalk up the whole thing to both mutually benefiting each other with the right triggers.

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:07 am That's an impossibility. We see base Gogeta being Blue level in Broly so base Vegetto is also Blue level in the Zamasu arc. At best Goku in episode 109/110 is a match to SS Vegetto.

How is Kale stronger than Goku or Vegeta? She was defeated by a tired SSG Goku.
Base Gogeta has nothing conclusive to draw any conclusions of. It’s only when Gogeta uses SS that we can safely assume that he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Not to mention Gogeta here is a fusion of much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta. All things considered, I think it’s a matter of scaling up what Goku had accomplished by the time he fights Jiren. He uses a Blue form that now rivals Toppo and on top of that his kaioken can be amplified to 20-fold, which in my opinion is enough to cover any power advantage Zamasu had over him. Combining that with spirit bomb and a Saiyan boost is the icing on the cake.

Kale’s berserker form can wall SSB Goku using a kamehameha. The power she used against SSG Goku is seemingly just a fraction of it. Unless we assume a tired SSG Goku is stronger than a full power SSB Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 07, 2022 5:37 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:20 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:14 am Kaioken and SSB are fodder to Vegito, we already know this because Gowasu said that, to harm the empowered Fused Zamasu, they would need power far greater than the Kaioken SSB move that Goku just pulled. So the fact that Goku combined Kaioken and SSB is irrelevant. What you are saying is that the energy of the U7 team minus Vegeta is enough to match the boost given by the Potara fusion.
If you are talking about Goku when he fought Zamasu, that would be right. But I’m talking about a much stronger version of Goku using a much stronger version of kaioken, an even stronger technique than kaioken, and a ladder above that, all combined (Blue + kaioken x20 + spirit bomb + Saiyan boost). Goku has evolved so much since he fought Zamasu that he doesn’t need kaioken to fight Hit or Toppo by the time he picks a fight against Jiren.

So Goku using SSB and Kaioken in conjunction with U7 Spirit Bomb (equal to SS Kefla who couldn't simply stomp SSB Goku) allows him to rival Fused Zamasu and Vegito because…?
SS Kefla couldn’t simply stomp Goku with kaioken because she still needed to enact her own Saiyan boost. Fighting Goku allowed her to break her limits and she was able to match the raging power of spirit bomb, which in its own turn was the trigger Goku needed to activate Ultra Instinct. So, you can chalk up the whole thing to both mutually benefiting each other with the right triggers.

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:07 am That's an impossibility. We see base Gogeta being Blue level in Broly so base Vegetto is also Blue level in the Zamasu arc. At best Goku in episode 109/110 is a match to SS Vegetto.

How is Kale stronger than Goku or Vegeta? She was defeated by a tired SSG Goku.
Base Gogeta has nothing conclusive to draw any conclusions of. It’s only when Gogeta uses SS that we can safely assume that he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Not to mention Gogeta here is a fusion of much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta. All things considered, I think it’s a matter of scaling up what Goku had accomplished by the time he fights Jiren. He uses a Blue form that now rivals Toppo and on top of that his kaioken can be amplified to 20-fold, which in my opinion is enough to cover any power advantage Zamasu had over him. Combining that with spirit bomb and a Saiyan boost is the icing on the cake.

Kale’s berserker form can wall SSB Goku using a kamehameha. The power she used against SSG Goku is seemingly just a fraction of it. Unless we assume a tired SSG Goku is stronger than a full power SSB Goku.
SS Gogeta and SS Broly were on the same tier so logically base Gogeta is Blue tier since Ikari Broly was also Blue tier.

Vegetto needed Blue to fight Corrupted Zamasu, that alone puts Zamasu beyond anything Goku could do with Blue and Kaioken. He can even try Kaioken times 1000 and it still wouldn't matter.

Goku himself said in episode 100 that he was going to use just a little more power when turning Blue from SS2 so he was obviously suppressed as his future fight with Kale proves. Unless you think Krillin is Blue level because Goku used it against him lol.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 07, 2022 5:45 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:28 pm He's a GoD in training who is explicitly stated to be a novice when it comes to using GoD abilities. The only thing we can infer from Toppo is that he's powerful enough to be a GoD candidate but that's not something that would inherently place him on the level of trained GoDs.

Merus is an angel in training and is nowhere near Beerus' level let alone the level of an Angel.
Belmond says Toppo has the power of a god of destruction.
Episode: 125
Time: 13:29-13:55
Context: After Toppo transformed into a God of Destruction
Belmod: "Indeed. It's a power belonging only to Gods of Destruction!"
U11 Kaioshin: "And Toppo is... a candidate to be our Universe 11's God of Destruction!"
Marcarita: "Now is the time to show the results of our training, yes."
Belmod: "Having made up his mind, Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction. Indeed! It's the birth of God of Destruction Toppo!"
What does "level" mean to you? Being on pair? By that logic shouldn't Android Saga Piccolo be = SSJ Vegeta? Piccolo did have the power on the level of a SSJ, after all.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat May 07, 2022 9:57 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:12 pm So Kefla only unleashed power comparable to the Genki-Dama when finishing Goku? I can see it.

But to be fair, Goku was already pretty worn out and pushing himself beyond his limits too. Every fight is going to end with a single attack when the loser is weakened enough.
I think it's more like he power only reached that level by the end of her fight with Goku - which allowed her to get behind him without a chance for reaction.

I agree that Goku was pretty worn out, but the narrative didn't go out of it's way to say Goku only lost because of that - Kefla won fair and square. I think he would indeed last more, for sure - Jiren was considerably stronger than Kefla when he fought Goku, but still took a while to knock him out. But I think he would lose anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 07, 2022 11:48 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:37 pm SS Gogeta and SS Broly were on the same tier so logically base Gogeta is Blue tier since Ikari Broly was also Blue tier.

Vegetto needed Blue to fight Corrupted Zamasu, that alone puts Zamasu beyond anything Goku could do with Blue and Kaioken. He can even try Kaioken times 1000 and it still wouldn't matter.

Goku himself said in episode 100 that he was going to use just a little more power when turning Blue from SS2 so he was obviously suppressed as his future fight with Kale proves. Unless you think Krillin is Blue level because Goku used it against him lol.
I don’t think you can easily make that correlation without assuming Broly’s Super Saiyan form works exactly like every other Super Saiyan transformation, despite he being obviously exceptional on every aspect, and even for Gogeta himself, who is a fusion. But still, even if we assume that Base Gogeta and Wrathful Broly are Blue tier, that’s considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the movie. Against Zamasu, Goku and Vegeta were weaker, so their fusion would probably not be Blue tier, maybe God tier or above, like Base Kefla.

Vegetto needing Blue to fight Zamasu isn’t an issue for me, because fusions operate under different circumstances. The only thing we know is that he is at least two tiers above Blue, he surpasses Blue + Kaioken and surpasses Zamasu. Considering the experience Goku had between fighting Zamasu and Jiren, Goku has greatly surpassed Blue + Kaioken tier, remaining left only Zamasu and Vegetto, so that he could move on to Jiren, the strongest by episode 109/110. If Goku hadn’t reach at least the power Vegetto had when they fought Zamasu, he wouldn’t be approaching Jiren with such confidence. It would be another story if he merged with Vegeta the way they were in the tournament. Then, you would have a point, because Vegetto would be far more powerful than when he fought Zamasu.

I believe this was discussed before, but when Goku said he would use a little more power against Kale, he used an euphemism. Toei Goku is that cocky. He says exactly the same thing to Baby when he is about to beat the crap out of him with SS4. But in this case, Goku’s power was completely overwhelmed by Kale’s, he even tried to push more, but it was useless. Against Krillin, we are discussing different situations. While Goku is testing Krillin’s resolve in a completely controlled environment, and remember Goku never needed to go past Super Saiyan to do that, he did it on purpose to see how Krillin would react, against Kale he has no reason to hold back as she is pummeling him effortlessly. If he really wanted to use a little more power perhaps he would use SS3 or SSG, which would work for that purpose, if he really was stronger than her as a SSG, for example.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun May 08, 2022 12:37 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:48 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:37 pm SS Gogeta and SS Broly were on the same tier so logically base Gogeta is Blue tier since Ikari Broly was also Blue tier.

Vegetto needed Blue to fight Corrupted Zamasu, that alone puts Zamasu beyond anything Goku could do with Blue and Kaioken. He can even try Kaioken times 1000 and it still wouldn't matter.

Goku himself said in episode 100 that he was going to use just a little more power when turning Blue from SS2 so he was obviously suppressed as his future fight with Kale proves. Unless you think Krillin is Blue level because Goku used it against him lol.
I don’t think you can easily make that correlation without assuming Broly’s Super Saiyan form works exactly like every other Super Saiyan transformation, despite he being obviously exceptional on every aspect, and even for Gogeta himself, who is a fusion. But still, even if we assume that Base Gogeta and Wrathful Broly are Blue tier, that’s considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the movie. Against Zamasu, Goku and Vegeta were weaker, so their fusion would probably not be Blue tier, maybe God tier or above, like Base Kefla.

Vegetto needing Blue to fight Zamasu isn’t an issue for me, because fusions operate under different circumstances. The only thing we know is that he is at least two tiers above Blue, he surpasses Blue + Kaioken and surpasses Zamasu. Considering the experience Goku had between fighting Zamasu and Jiren, Goku has greatly surpassed Blue + Kaioken tier, remaining left only Zamasu and Vegetto, so that he could move on to Jiren, the strongest by episode 109/110. If Goku hadn’t reach at least the power Vegetto had when they fought Zamasu, he wouldn’t be approaching Jiren with such confidence. It would be another story if he merged with Vegeta the way they were in the tournament. Then, you would have a point, because Vegetto would be far more powerful than when he fought Zamasu.

I believe this was discussed before, but when Goku said he would use a little more power against Kale, he used an euphemism. Toei Goku is that cocky. He says exactly the same thing to Baby when he is about to beat the crap out of him with SS4. But in this case, Goku’s power was completely overwhelmed by Kale’s, he even tried to push more, but it was useless. Against Krillin, we are discussing different situations. While Goku is testing Krillin’s resolve in a completely controlled environment, and remember Goku never needed to go past Super Saiyan to do that, he did it on purpose to see how Krillin would react, against Kale he has no reason to hold back as she is pummeling him effortlessly. If he really wanted to use a little more power perhaps he would use SS3 or SSG, which would work for that purpose, if he really was stronger than her as a SSG, for example.
To be fair, he did use SSG against Kale and held his own quite well. Kale after she managed to completely control her green-haired Super Saiyan, which made her stronger than before (as stated by the audience). To me he miscalculated how much power Kale had when he used Blue on her, and it backfired. Anyway, the scene needed Goku to be in blue form to work, to hammer how strong Kale was when out of control - it's the same principle as Kale beating the shit out of Freeza with zero effort, only to later Freeza say that he could handle her if he takes her seriously.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 08, 2022 12:56 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:48 pm I don’t think you can easily make that correlation without assuming Broly’s Super Saiyan form works exactly like every other Super Saiyan transformation, despite he being obviously exceptional on every aspect, and even for Gogeta himself, who is a fusion. But still, even if we assume that Base Gogeta and Wrathful Broly are Blue tier, that’s considering how strong Goku and Vegeta were in the movie. Against Zamasu, Goku and Vegeta were weaker, so their fusion would probably not be Blue tier, maybe God tier or above, like Base Kefla.

Vegetto needing Blue to fight Zamasu isn’t an issue for me, because fusions operate under different circumstances. The only thing we know is that he is at least two tiers above Blue, he surpasses Blue + Kaioken and surpasses Zamasu. Considering the experience Goku had between fighting Zamasu and Jiren, Goku has greatly surpassed Blue + Kaioken tier, remaining left only Zamasu and Vegetto, so that he could move on to Jiren, the strongest by episode 109/110. If Goku hadn’t reach at least the power Vegetto had when they fought Zamasu, he wouldn’t be approaching Jiren with such confidence. It would be another story if he merged with Vegeta the way they were in the tournament. Then, you would have a point, because Vegetto would be far more powerful than when he fought Zamasu.

I believe this was discussed before, but when Goku said he would use a little more power against Kale, he used an euphemism. Toei Goku is that cocky. He says exactly the same thing to Baby when he is about to beat the crap out of him with SS4. But in this case, Goku’s power was completely overwhelmed by Kale’s, he even tried to push more, but it was useless. Against Krillin, we are discussing different situations. While Goku is testing Krillin’s resolve in a completely controlled environment, and remember Goku never needed to go past Super Saiyan to do that, he did it on purpose to see how Krillin would react, against Kale he has no reason to hold back as she is pummeling him effortlessly. If he really wanted to use a little more power perhaps he would use SS3 or SSG, which would work for that purpose, if he really was stronger than her as a SSG, for example.
If Broly's Super Saiyan form works differently than normal and gives him more power then base Gogeta would be even stronger than Blue since we do know how much stronger Super Saiyan makes him.

Goku did not grew significantly stronger between arcs much less match Vegetto. You can even make an argument that he grew weaker.

The fact that Goku later on dominated a stronger Kale with just Super Saiyan God says it all really. He was heavily suppressed in episode 100. Why didn't he use SS3 or SSG? Well, SS3 sucks because of stamina issues so that's out. SSG could have worked but supposedly SSB has perfect Ki control so that would be the superior choice if you fight holding out.

Besides, I just remembered that Belmod says in episode 109 that Goku was just about to use his full power to fight Jiren so that confirms he didn't against Kale.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 08, 2022 2:14 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:45 pm

Belmond says Toppo has the power of a god of destruction.
Episode: 125
Time: 13:29-13:55
Context: After Toppo transformed into a God of Destruction
Belmod: "Indeed. It's a power belonging only to Gods of Destruction!"
U11 Kaioshin: "And Toppo is... a candidate to be our Universe 11's God of Destruction!"
Marcarita: "Now is the time to show the results of our training, yes."
Belmod: "Having made up his mind, Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction. Indeed! It's the birth of God of Destruction Toppo!"
What does "level" mean to you? Being on pair? By that logic shouldn't Android Saga Piccolo be = SSJ Vegeta? Piccolo did have the power on the level of a SSJ, after all.
What I gathered from is that Toppo's Hakaishin power was obtained due to deemed worthy of being a candidate for the future God of Destruction. And because of that, Belmod specifically trained him to use Hakaishin abilities. This is no different than Vegeta's training with Beerus. Regardless of Vegeta's power, Vegeta only awakened Ultra Ego due to his training with Beerus.

Being on the level of a God of Destruction is meaningless because that's a comment that Gowasu gave to Super Saiyan 2 Goku during the Zamasu Arc and he wasn't drastically stronger than Initial Goku Black at the time. Jiren's comment has more meaning since promotional material explicitly states that he has power surpassing the Hakaishins. With the example you gave, no, Piccolo is not on the level of a Super Saiyan. Krillin referenced "Super Saiyan" specifically when describing Piccolo because he thought that Piccolo's strength was only obtainable by a Super Saiyan, not that he was strictly on the level of one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 08, 2022 2:27 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:10 pm Kefla is already OP as fuck, made of two SS girls who couldn't take down a tired SSG, but end up challenging 2nd Sign Goku.
Crazy, right? but it happened. Does it make sense? not so much, nobody expected her to be that powerful.
It does make sense when you factor in the potara, their relationship, and Kale being a wild card with a blank check of power. A fusion involving her can be as strong as they want it to be, they make the rules, not us.

There's nothing saying Kefla cannot be above a certain level of power. It all boils down to "that conflicts with who I believe should be stronger", or "nah, my fav character won't be surpassed as easily".
But whatever we feel or think, doesn't really mean much to the writers when they write the story, and they wrote: "this power feels different than anything prior... he's fucking strong". The closing line debunks it being about something else but strenght.
The subtext is basically this fucker doesn't make sense, he is redefining the term STRONG, now, he is doing this now; and Whis doubles the bet saying he is not even close to his FP.
If the point wasn't to put Jiren already at the top, then there would be no line about how it eclipses energies felt before, the comparison is there for a reason.
I don't agree with you on Suppressed Jiren being stronger than Merged Zamasu but I will say that it's refreshing to see people not dismiss Kefla entirely just because she is a fusion between both Kale and Caulifa. I would actually say that it does make sense that she is this powerful given how powerful Berserk Kale was. Upon her introduction, she displayed power that gave SSJB Goku "some trouble" and was stated to be much stronger after having complete control over her Super Saiyan power. SSJ2 Caulifa ended up matching SSJ2 Goku when he was evolving rapidly during their fight so there's no telling how powerful Caulifa had become compared to how powerful Goku and Vegeta were at the start of the tournament. And Kefla too, was subjected to insane power boosts due to her own Saiyan physiology.

I don't have any particularly strong feelings on how powerful Kefla can be. I'm open to her being as powerful or stronger than Merged Zamasu. However, there are no statements within the anime or any sources that places Kefla as being close to the power of a Hakaishin even when she uses an attack that vastly exceeds her own battle power. Since her power as well as her final attack on UI Omen Goku exceeds Suppressed Jiren's power by a large margin, there's no way Suppressed Jiren's power is closing in on a Hakaishin. That's really all I'm saying here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 08, 2022 5:46 am

Whatever excuse people here are willing to make to boost Kefla in the power ladder, the same would apply to Fused Zamasu.

"Kale was giving trouble to SSB Goku!" -> Black straight up oneshot the dude at least twice throughout the arc

"Caulifla was matching SS2 Goku!" -> So was Present Zamasu, the weakest form of Zamasu we've ever seen

"The Potara boost is exceptionally high because Kale and Caulifla are best friends/lovers!" -> I mean, Zamasu and Zamasu (aka Fused Zamasu, also known as Zamasu^2) are literally the same exact identical person, you can't get closer than that

And while Kefla is only in SS2, a form that stopped being relevant in the Cell arc, Fused Zamasu is in Super Saiyan Rosé.

As I said at the start, people here can't reconcile Fused Zamasu being at least relative to Kefla with him being surpassed in 109-110; because Kefla was giving trouble to a version of UI stronger than when he first appeared.

What I noticed in this thread is what I've been noticing for months, people here just underrate Zamasu. They are willing to make all sorts of excuses for the people he's compared with, but when it comes to Zamasu himself, they keep downplaying him. And I must wonder this happens, it's truly curious; a villain that forced Vegito to go Blue and repeatedly pressured him, the only antagonist ever who made a Saiyan fusion get serious, you'd think he'd get more respect here.

The ultimate irony is that Shin's statement about Jiren feeling "different" from everyone else is taken for truth; but for some reason, his statement of Fused Zamasu's existence being beyond ANYTHING he can comprehend, which has ENORMOUS implications in how he relates to the other Gods, is ignored... even though they come from the same guy and are both meant to hype the main antagonist. Why is one statement taken for truth without question, and the other just straight up ignored?

Saying that Zamasu gets surpassed in ep. 109-110, literally at the start of the ToP, is downplaying him massively. And by extension you are also downplaying Blue Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun May 08, 2022 11:12 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:46 am Whatever excuse people here are willing to make to boost Kefla in the power ladder, the same would apply to Fused Zamasu.

"Kale was giving trouble to SSB Goku!" -> Black straight up oneshot the dude at least twice throughout the arc

"Caulifla was matching SS2 Goku!" -> So was Present Zamasu, the weakest form of Zamasu we've ever seen

"The Potara boost is exceptionally high because Kale and Caulifla are best friends/lovers!" -> I mean, Zamasu and Zamasu (aka Fused Zamasu, also known as Zamasu^2) are literally the same exact identical person, you can't get closer than that

And while Kefla is only in SS2, a form that stopped being relevant in the Cell arc, Fused Zamasu is in Super Saiyan Rosé.

As I said at the start, people here can't reconcile Fused Zamasu being at least relative to Kefla with him being surpassed in 109-110; because Kefla was giving trouble to a version of UI stronger than when he first appeared.

What I noticed in this thread is what I've been noticing for months, people here just underrate Zamasu. They are willing to make all sorts of excuses for the people he's compared with, but when it comes to Zamasu himself, they keep downplaying him. And I must wonder this happens, it's truly curious; a villain that forced Vegito to go Blue and repeatedly pressured him, the only antagonist ever who made a Saiyan fusion get serious, you'd think he'd get more respect here.

The ultimate irony is that Shin's statement about Jiren feeling "different" from everyone else is taken for truth; but for some reason, his statement of Fused Zamasu's existence being beyond ANYTHING he can comprehend, which has ENORMOUS implications in how he relates to the other Gods, is ignored... even though they come from the same guy and are both meant to hype the main antagonist. Why is one statement taken for truth without question, and the other just straight up ignored?

Saying that Zamasu gets surpassed in ep. 109-110, literally at the start of the ToP, is downplaying him massively. And by extension you are also downplaying Blue Vegito.
Just to say, I agree with you. Even if Kefla's super powerful, Kale and Caulifla are individually weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta, no matter where in the timeline. So Kefla really can't be stronger than SSB Vegito or Gogeta, no matter where in the timeline.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 08, 2022 12:30 pm

Thani wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:12 am Just to say, I agree with you. Even if Kefla's super powerful, Kale and Caulifla are individually weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta, no matter where in the timeline. So Kefla really can't be stronger than SSB Vegito or Gogeta, no matter where in the timeline.
Indeed, but logically, why should Kefla even remotely be comparable to Vegito or Gogeta? I mean, her strongest form is SS2. Meanwhile Vegito and Gogeta are in SSB. And we know that her fusées combined were no match for SSG Goku. So really Kefla theoretically isn't anything impressive or incredible. She's the fusion of two people who could barely beat SS3 Goku, and her top form is only SS2.

And yet, Kefla is able to pressure UI Goku (who has been using it for the second time, so he's perfecting it) and even made Jiren awaken from his meditation.

And so we are left with only two paths:

1) If Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed at ep. 109-110, then they are fodder to Kefla, who was pressuring an even stronger version of Ultra Instinct.

Problem: How is it possible that Zamasu and Vegito, whose fusées individually could solo Kale and Caulifla (Black and Goku), and who are in the top forms we have seen up to that point (SSB and SSRosée vs. the pathetic SS2 that stopped being relevant in the Cell saga), how is it possible that they are that much weaker than Kefla?

2) [What I'm saying and what makes the most sense] Zamasu and Vegito are not surpassed at ep. 109-110. They are not surpassed at ep. 115-116 either, because anything Kefla can do, they can do it too and better, for the aforementioned reasons (which means that they can also pressure that UI Goku). Which means, as I was saying, that Zamasu and Vegito remain top tiers for most part of the ToP arc, and are surpassed only in ep. 129-130, when we get into Mastered Ultra Instinct territory.

But if Zamasu and Vegito are above Suppressed Jiren, why did Shin say that Jiren felt "different" from anyone ever faced before? I can think of 2 reasons:

1) Jiren could feel different simply because all he uses is brute strength. And that's why Shin later on says "he's strong, plain and simple". Brute strength is all that Jiren has. Every past antagonist had some unique capability; Frieza transformed, Cell replicated everyone's technique, Buu absorbed people, Hit had time skip hax, Zamasu was immortal and had all kinds of Ki-based flashy techniques. Jiren is the only antagonist who just relied on brute strength, period (up to that point, they didn't know of Broly yet). And so he would feel "different", because he just uses physical/brute strength, "plain and simple". He doesn't have any unique gimmick or anything like that. He doesn't have any unique technique. The most original attack he used was literally a generic red ki blast.

2) Or, simply, Shin was referring to Jiren's true power. Shin simply sensed that Jiren was only using a mere fraction of his true power. Jiren while using his true power, like he does in ep. 129-130, is above even Fused Zamasu, but I'm not denying this. But Jiren in ep. 109 was not using his full power. People can't prove whether Shin was referring to Suppressed Jiren or to Full Power/Limit Breaker Jiren.

This is what I've been saying since the beginning. Shin can hype Jiren and UI Goku all he wants, it won't ever erase the fact that a mere SS2 was able to pressure Ultra Instinct Goku. What Kefla is capable of doing recontextualizes everything, because if a SS2 fusion can pressure UI Goku that much, then logically, a SSB or SSRosé fusion should mess him up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 08, 2022 3:00 pm

Thani wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 12:37 am To be fair, he did use SSG against Kale and held his own quite well. Kale after she managed to completely control her green-haired Super Saiyan, which made her stronger than before (as stated by the audience). To me he miscalculated how much power Kale had when he used Blue on her, and it backfired. Anyway, the scene needed Goku to be in blue form to work, to hammer how strong Kale was when out of control - it's the same principle as Kale beating the shit out of Freeza with zero effort, only to later Freeza say that he could handle her if he takes her seriously.
The way Tenshinhan phrases it is ambiguous, but subtext implies he is talking about the controlled yellowish Super Saiyan form Kale had before snapping. Kale’s 2nd version of controlled Super Saiyan form was stronger after she managed to control herself, but the berserker form is a totally different matter. While Goku could more or less fight both Kale and Caulifla in that state with SS2, against berserker Kale he was getting ragdolled.

ZombieVito wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 12:56 am If Broly's Super Saiyan form works differently than normal and gives him more power then base Gogeta would be even stronger than Blue since we do know how much stronger Super Saiyan makes him.

Goku did not grew significantly stronger between arcs much less match Vegetto. You can even make an argument that he grew weaker.

Besides, I just remembered that Belmod says in episode 109 that Goku was just about to use his full power to fight Jiren so that confirms he didn't against Kale.
I was actually thinking that since Broly already used Great Ape powers in his wrathful form, his Super Saiyan would overlap that and not simply use the wrathful form as a Base. This is still a controversial matter.

Goku had a lot of fighting experience after fighting Zamasu and even training sessions in the gravity chamber, so this notion that he grew weaker is unfounded. He can easily use kaioken and, after the exhibition matches he doesn’t need kaioken to match Toppo and Vegeta.

Vermoud probably thinks Goku’s full power is when he used Blue in conjunction with kaioken, because that’s the power he used to beat Bergamo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 08, 2022 7:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:00 pm I was actually thinking that since Broly already used Great Ape powers in his wrathful form, his Super Saiyan would overlap that and not simply use the wrathful form as a Base. This is still a controversial matter.

Goku had a lot of fighting experience after fighting Zamasu and even training sessions in the gravity chamber, so this notion that he grew weaker is unfounded. He can easily use kaioken and, after the exhibition matches he doesn’t need kaioken to match Toppo and Vegeta.

Vermoud probably thinks Goku’s full power is when he used Blue in conjunction with kaioken, because that’s the power he used to beat Bergamo.
Well, there is that scene where he himself says he's rusty when he got hit by a bullet and got damaged. I actually don't think Goku grew weaker but I also don't think he grew significantly stronger either in between the arcs. At best I have him catching up to Goku Black.

I never understood why people think Goku needed Kaioken to fight Toppo. They never fought and later Vegeta battles evenly with Toppo so he's SSB tier only.

Belmod and his Kaioshin specifically talked about Blue though. No mention of Kaioken.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 08, 2022 8:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 12:30 pm
Thani wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:12 am Just to say, I agree with you. Even if Kefla's super powerful, Kale and Caulifla are individually weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta, no matter where in the timeline. So Kefla really can't be stronger than SSB Vegito or Gogeta, no matter where in the timeline.
Indeed, but logically, why should Kefla even remotely be comparable to Vegito or Gogeta? I mean, her strongest form is SS2. Meanwhile Vegito and Gogeta are in SSB. And we know that her fusées combined were no match for SSG Goku. So really Kefla theoretically isn't anything impressive or incredible. She's the fusion of two people who could barely beat SS3 Goku, and her top form is only SS2.

And yet, Kefla is able to pressure UI Goku (who has been using it for the second time, so he's perfecting it) and even made Jiren awaken from his meditation.

And so we are left with only two paths:

1) If Zamasu and Vegito are surpassed at ep. 109-110, then they are fodder to Kefla, who was pressuring an even stronger version of Ultra Instinct.

Problem: How is it possible that Zamasu and Vegito, whose fusées individually could solo Kale and Caulifla (Black and Goku), and who are in the top forms we have seen up to that point (SSB and SSRosée vs. the pathetic SS2 that stopped being relevant in the Cell saga), how is it possible that they are that much weaker than Kefla?

2) [What I'm saying and what makes the most sense] Zamasu and Vegito are not surpassed at ep. 109-110. They are not surpassed at ep. 115-116 either, because anything Kefla can do, they can do it too and better, for the aforementioned reasons (which means that they can also pressure that UI Goku). Which means, as I was saying, that Zamasu and Vegito remain top tiers for most part of the ToP arc, and are surpassed only in ep. 129-130, when we get into Mastered Ultra Instinct territory.

But if Zamasu and Vegito are above Suppressed Jiren, why did Shin say that Jiren felt "different" from anyone ever faced before? I can think of 2 reasons:

1) Jiren could feel different simply because all he uses is brute strength. And that's why Shin later on says "he's strong, plain and simple". Brute strength is all that Jiren has. Every past antagonist had some unique capability; Frieza transformed, Cell replicated everyone's technique, Buu absorbed people, Hit had time skip hax, Zamasu was immortal and had all kinds of Ki-based flashy techniques. Jiren is the only antagonist who just relied on brute strength, period (up to that point, they didn't know of Broly yet). And so he would feel "different", because he just uses physical/brute strength, "plain and simple". He doesn't have any unique gimmick or anything like that. He doesn't have any unique technique. The most original attack he used was literally a generic red ki blast.

2) Or, simply, Shin was referring to Jiren's true power. Shin simply sensed that Jiren was only using a mere fraction of his true power. Jiren while using his true power, like he does in ep. 129-130, is above even Fused Zamasu, but I'm not denying this. But Jiren in ep. 109 was not using his full power. People can't prove whether Shin was referring to Suppressed Jiren or to Full Power/Limit Breaker Jiren.

This is what I've been saying since the beginning. Shin can hype Jiren and UI Goku all he wants, it won't ever erase the fact that a mere SS2 was able to pressure Ultra Instinct Goku. What Kefla is capable of doing recontextualizes everything, because if a SS2 fusion can pressure UI Goku that much, then logically, a SSB or SSRosé fusion should mess him up.
Couldn't we just throw the same argument in reverse? SSJ2 Kefla was competing with an individual with a form that not even the GoDs could obtain in addition to it yielding both power and abilities that vastly outstrip SSJB Kaiokenx20 let alone just regular Super Saiyan Blue. In contrast, Merged Zamasu lost to a Super Saiyan Blue and a Super Saiyan Rage Trunks wielding a Spirit Sword.

I think it's dishonest just to downplay Kefla primarily because of the form she was using. After all, Trunks was a Super Saiyan 2 during the Zamasu Arc yet held his own quite well against Goku Black and Zamasu who could fend off both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta. Regardless of what anyone else would say on the matter, I think we can agree on that.

Naturally, I would agree with you but what muddies things here is how much Goku had evolved during the Tournament. That can play a significant role in how powerful Kale and Caulifa is in comparison to Goku Black and Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:53 pm I never understood why people think Goku needed Kaioken to fight Toppo. They never fought and later Vegeta battles evenly with Toppo so he's SSB tier only.

Belmod and his Kaioshin specifically talked about Blue though. No mention of Kaioken.
Goku and Toppo’s match was interrupted by the Great Priest, but Goku left the ring believing he and Toppo were equally matched. And that’s the info that was transmitted to Vegeta. Later, Vegeta matches Toppo because he trained in the RoSaT again. Goku did the same after fighting multiple times in the preparation episodes and training with Whis in the gravity chamber. Not to mention that Goku was possibly on even ground with Gohan with Super Saiyan Blue and Gohan was no match for Toppo later, suggesting Goku got considerably stronger.

Vermoud saw Goku using Super Saiyan Blue multiple times in the tournament, so I don’t think he is referring to only that. Blue Kaioken is actually treated by the gods as Goku’s full power, as this is the form in which they saw he doing the most impressive stuff.

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