Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 am

If Super Saiyan God is so powerful and so far above a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito that it wasn't even considered...

Then why is Android 17 almost on their level?

In the manga, Piccolo asked Android 17 what sort of training he had done and his response was

"What sort? Just protecting my island..."

So he went from Piccolo level to Super Saiyan Blue level in 13 years without doing any training?

At least with Gohan you can sprout the potential excuse. Frieza who was Super Saiyan level just from genetics so training could increase his power a ton.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:07 am

Why was Hit getting his ass kicked by Dyspo so badly? Sure Dyspo has super speed, but that wasn’t nearly as big a problem for Freeza. Did Hit slack off? Or is he just piss weak (like SSJG level) without his assassin techniques?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:35 am

A useless thought that came up about fusions is that even though Goten and Trunks weren't worlds below Goku and Vegeta, their fusions were. SS3 Gotenks - even after the ROSAT- can barely even edge out Super Buu while Super Vegito is casually playing around with Buuhan.

There's a bigger gap between their fusions than between the fusees, even though we are comparing the strongest form of the one that trained and the first form of the other one. Both as SS3 would make the gap mental.

Possible reasons:
- Trunks needing to dial down his ki to match Goten.
- Rival boost.
- Adult saiyans having 2 more forms.
- All of the above.
- Other.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:07 am Why was Hit getting his ass kicked by Dyspo so badly? Sure Dyspo has super speed, but that wasn’t nearly as big a problem for Freeza. Did Hit slack off? Or is he just piss weak (like SSJG level) without his assassin techniques?
Hit isn't remarkable without his time skip. He needed a lot of direct blows to put down SSB Vegeta, who mentioned his attacks weren't devastating and noticed how he could still be on his feet even though he took a hell of a beating. He was overpowered by SSB Goku when he stopped using the TS.
I'd say he is that "weak", probably on Dyspo's realm, who also couldn't put him down for good. Dyspo is SSG level-ish, IIRC.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:19 am

also to note:

Manga Kefla was composed by a still berserker devil saiyan\pseudo-SS1 Kale and SS1 Caulifla.
She was for all purposes and intents SS\Devil Kale with Caulifla's skill, and as Super Saiyan she was about Ultimate Gohan level.
We don't know how strong was Gohan in the manga.

Anime Kefla was composed by a full in-control SS2 Kale who did surpass her berserker power and tendencies and SS2 Caulifla, both of them having improved their understanding of each other.
Her personality was still mostly Caulifla, but could compete with SSGod Goku in base, and Blue as SS.

I suppose the difference in power fits with the improvements of Goten and Trunks in Buu Saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:19 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 am Then why is Android 17 almost on their level?

In the manga, Piccolo asked Android 17 what sort of training he had done and his response was

"What sort? Just protecting my island..."

So he went from Piccolo level to Super Saiyan Blue level in 13 years without doing any training?
Yep, that's just how it was written, and it doesn't make much sense but that's how it goes.

It should be noted that in the manga at least, many characters are bewildered at how strong 17 has gotten during the ToP. Goku notes at the end how bizarre it is that he is almost as strong as him without any proper training. The characters are as perplexed as us.

Does it really make more sense to you that, with no training, 17 caught up to Goku who has unlocked 2 more transformations above super saiyan 3? It's ridiculous either way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:27 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 am Then why is Android 17 almost on their level?
We all know it's because of a meta reason. The writers like 17, he's always been one of their pets, so they brought him back and gave him a power-up to make him competitive with the top fighters at the time, even though it was illogical.

It's the same reason why Trunks' Super Saiyan Rage form, which is not even full Super Saiyan Blue, can somehow make him survive against Fused Zamasu, who was stated to be far beyond anything SSB Kaioken Goku could muster. The writers simply wanted their fave to stay relevant.

I mean, why does this surprise you? You even mentioned Piccolo in the same post. Piccolo who was a tertiary irrelevant character for all of DBS, up until the newest movie, where he somehow gets a new form that makes him a top fighter.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:40 am

Piccolo at least trains non stop and he had to wish for his potential to be unlocked and then was given a bonus on top of that.

Android 17 is just strong because...

At the rate his strength increased then by all accounts he would have been strongest character in DBZ, not Super Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 am
Then why is Android 17 almost on their level?

In the manga, Piccolo asked Android 17 what sort of training he had done and his response was

"What sort? Just protecting my island..."

So he went from Piccolo level to Super Saiyan Blue level in 13 years without doing any training?
I already mentioned this yesterday, so I'll share the panel that shows that android 17 actually did not sit on his ass and grew stronger out of the blue:
He's been taming 7 creatures that survived SS2 Gohan's rage for like a decade.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:58 am

You make it sound like he's been sparring with them for years upon years. He said he tamed them, that could have been done at one point and that was it.

Otherwise he does not train. He probably keeps monsters from going haywire and stops some regular humans and that's it.

In the end it is all just down to the fact that they wanted him to be that strong but it's still dodgy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:27 am

That's not how storytelling works, you don't need 40 panels, and OVA or a short manga to convey that's what he's been up to.
It's enough with how it was framed. There's literally a panel of Krilin saying "I can see why you are so strong", what's with this denial?

He was amazingly weaker than the guys the Cell Jrs were beating up... and now he turned them into his personal pets, yeah... small potatoes, that can be done in just one afternoon. And it doesn't even matter how long it took him, if it made him that strong in one afternoon or in 10 years, the result is the same: he got stronger doing that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:53 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:51 am
HeroR wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:45 pm Dragon Ball isn't that complicated. For the most part, people need to take what Dragon Ball say at its word instead of trying hand wave or claimed something have been retcon.
[...]
In short, Goku put Super Saiyan God over Fusion in both the extended cut of the movie, which was cut during the original run due to time since the extended cut is nearly two hours long, the anime retelling done years later stated the same thing, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power unlike any he had felt before and he was half Vegito, and the anime double down by showing base Vegeta smashing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks when that arc was written at the same time as the Future Trunks Saga where Vegito Blue appeared. So there is no real evidence pointing to Super Vegito being above Super Saiyan God, but we have plenty of statements saying Super Saiyan God stomps Super Vegito from the Buu Saga.
I agree to the extent that taking it at its word is the most reasonable approach, but I feel like in this case you had to fill in Goku thoughts to draw the implication that is being worded here. Just to be clear, the idea that SSG is above Super Vegetto is generally preferred, but I understand that it is mostly an educated guess, not an outlined fact in its birthplace, specially because the manga is very direct on what Goku intended there (he compares SSG to himself from moments ago).

Like when Goku said that Broly maybe stronger than Beerus people put themselves into knots saying how Goku didn't know what he was talking about because he has never seen Beerus' full power and it was Toei's wank, only for the next movie to more or less imply that Broly is indeed within Beerus' power range. Same with Jiren who people try to downplay by saying he's only stronger than Belmond and Beerus can apparently one-shot Belmond, all because people didn't want to believe that the gods were relative to each other despite the manga showing us that was the case during the free-for-all battle and the anime more or less put Jiren over Beerus via statements by Whis, so fans had to twist themselves in knots to say that Beerus smashed all the gods outside of the mouse god and Whis wasn't being serious when he claimed a 'mortal that a God of Destruction couldn't beat, and that god happened to be stronger than Beerus'.
It's interesting that you mentioned this tidbit, because this is largely a point in which animated projects and manga sorta diverge between themselves. Beerus is implied to be stronger than Broly and Jiren in the manga, while in the anime and movies he was surpassed by them.

pepd wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:10 am I keep see people agreeing on that we know that (post-SSB) SS fusion is stronger than SSB, could someone explain to me why? I saw a mention of Broly, is that it? That's valid for the official story, that I understand is what most people care for, but I see some also talk about what Tori stablished/considers, and for that that's not enough, since we don't really know what he wrote or didn't, specially in fights.
I don't have a position or anything, just curious if I'm missing something.
That's because SS Gogeta could fight more than evenly against SS Broly, when not even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta together couldn't. Maybe this is not exactly outlined in the original draft, because Toyotaro doesn't depict that fight (he has SS Broly fight SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta and then SSB Gogeta) and so far we know Toriyama didn't design the final version of SS Broly, but for the intent of movie continuity I think you can take that fight for granted.
Going into Goku's thoughts is pointless, imo, for this situation because him saying that Fusion isn't enough and calling Super Saiyan God a power he didn't know could even exits is clear author intent of showing Super Saiyan God > Fusion at least from how it was in the Buu Saga. Vegito and Gogeta being stronger is because of all the training they did. Remember, Beerus claimed Goku in his base was weaker than Frieza, but by Resurrection 'F' Goku in his base was easily handling a Frieza who was many times stronger without bothering to transformed.

Long story short, there is nothing showing that Toriyama or Toei changed their minds when base Vegeta stomped Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks when they knew Vegito Blue was going to show up in the Future Trunks Saga since those things are planned months in advance.

Toyo is trying to have his cake and eat it. Namely, he wants to make these stupidly powerful foes like Angel Moro and 'strongest being in the universe' via a wish, but he doesn't want to go past Beerus. He also seemed not to want to mentioned Broly since he only showed up in a bonus chapter and he didn't even mentioned Broly about people stronger than Goku despite Super Hero putting Broly in the same class as Beerus. Jiren and everything from the USS is basically ignored in the manga. Like people claimed Jiren is now fodder, but Toyo literally never mentions him not even in passing. This also brings up holes in his own story since he's implying that Beerus was above Merus and saying 'you can't be stronger than the gods' in the current arc would mean that Granaloh shouldn't be stronger than King Kai since he's a god. Or at the very least, the Supreme Kais who are the counterparts to the Gods of Destruction.

More specifically, Full Power Super Saiyan Broly wasn't originally in the movie, only Super Saiyan Broly. Full Power was added by the art director for fan-service. So, basically like Vegito Blue existing in the Future Trunks Saga. Toriyama probably didn't mind because the basic outline remained Gogeta > Broly > SSB Goku and Vegeta.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:07 am Why was Hit getting his ass kicked by Dyspo so badly? Sure Dyspo has super speed, but that wasn’t nearly as big a problem for Freeza. Did Hit slack off? Or is he just piss weak (like SSJG level) without his assassin techniques?
When Dyspo got serious he was handling both Frieza and Ultimate Gohan. Dyspo isn't a powerhouse like Toppo, but a lot of people downplay how strong he was. He was able to handle Goku switching between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which mean at the very least he would be within 17's power range with his speed allowing him to hit above his weight.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:37 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 amHe's been taming 7 creatures that survived SS2 Gohan's rage for like a decade.
I always wondered how he survived his first encounter with a Cell Jr to live long enough to tame all seven. Vegeta and Trunks held their own against a Cell Jr each and wouldn't have lasted more than a few seconds if all seven ganged up on them.

That idea was only in the manga so Toriyama might've intended for it to be more of a joke or subversion. When GT brought back 17, he needed to fuse with another version of himself built by two mad scientists and absorb energy to stand a chance against Goku's strongest form. Fans would expect a returning character to have a crazy explanation to justify catching up after missing out on several arcs so the joke could be that 17 got that powerful while barely trying.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:51 pm

By virtue of being a new form that introduces a whole new realm of power (the Divine realm of the Gods), Super Saiyan God is stronger than anything and anyone from DBZ. The intentions of the writers are clear. SSG Goku and 10% Beerus leave anyone from DBZ in the dust.

And obviously what this means is that, in the anime, where Goku has absorbed God power in his Base and SS forms, anyone from Super who is at least relative to Base Goku automatically beats anyone from DBZ. Since Goku absorbed the power of God in his basic and normal forms, thus all the characters from Super (Anime at least) scale off of that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:46 pm

Skar wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:37 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 amHe's been taming 7 creatures that survived SS2 Gohan's rage for like a decade.
I always wondered how he survived his first encounter with a Cell Jr to live long enough to tame all seven. Vegeta and Trunks held their own against a Cell Jr each and wouldn't have lasted more than a few seconds if all seven ganged up on them.

That idea was only in the manga so Toriyama might've intended for it to be more of a joke or subversion. When GT brought back 17, he needed to fuse with another version of himself built by two mad scientists and absorb energy to stand a chance against Goku's strongest form. Fans would expect a returning character to have a crazy explanation to justify catching up after missing out on several arcs so the joke could be that 17 got that powerful while barely trying.
It's odd to say the least, even one Cell Jr. should be too much for him. It could be that he exited Cell stronger than before, for some reason, a small fraction of that big zenkai Cell got could've gone to 17, he was a part of Cell after all. But I doubt that.
Maybe, after learning that he wasn't the strongest android, he started training on his own and by the time he encountered the Jrs, he was already strong enough to fight them back, I mean Piccolo did the same inside the ROSAT on his own. Certainly seems to be something that should've taken some time for him to accomplish.

If somebody would've asked a few years ago in the Versus Thread: Android 17 vs 7 Cell Jrs, nobody would've said "17 would not only win but tame them like they are his Tamagotchi" :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:47 pm

Worth pointing out 17 does say he’s been training in the anime, but since the anime is inconsistent filler trash while manga is the superior, most coherent version with Toriyama’s name and all I’m sure you guys got it covered.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:35 am Hit isn't remarkable without his time skip. He needed a lot of direct blows to put down SSB Vegeta, who mentioned his attacks weren't devastating and noticed how he could still be on his feet even though he took a hell of a beating. He was overpowered by SSB Goku when he stopped using the TS.
I'd say he is that "weak", probably on Dyspo's realm, who also couldn't put him down for good. Dyspo is SSG level-ish, IIRC.
So I’ve looked at Hit’s fights before the ToP, and I think you’re up to something. Kind of.

Vegeta does say Hit’s attacks were “light” but when he gambles on it to try and tank them to get an open Hit, Hit finishes him. Sure, Vegeta was pretty beaten up already, but here’s the catch: Vegeta says Hit’s blows are too heavy before passing out. So sounds like Hit was pulling his punches until he noticed Vegeta wouldn’t die from a serious punch.

Then there’s Goku vs Hit. SSJB Goku vs Hit looks pretty even at first: Goku has Hit in the defensive, but doesn’t land a single blow. Kuririn says they’re on pair… and then we cut to Goku smacking Hit around. There’s even scenes where they both hit each other, but only Hit is injured. Hit improves, and his ability is pretty confusing. Whis flat out says he didn’t power up, but everyone says he powered up. Goku was running circles around Hit with normal Kaio-Ken, but he felt he needed x10 to keep up. Then he somehow doesn’t knock Hit with a clean punch to the jaw, before manhandling him though I can excuse this as plot armor.

Their second fight is a bit harder to scale. It’s mostly a hide and seek match and Hit relies exclusively on assassin tricks, which Goku figures out with his brains. It’s only a power context when Goku breaks his pocket dimension, and even that required a well charged Kamehameha.


On the topic of fusion. There’s also the option everyone hates: Fusion multiplies the powers of the fusers. So just being stronger gives a bigger boost.

If Goten and Trunks are a 5, Gotenks is 25.

If Goku and Vegeta are a 10, twice as strong as the boys, Vegetto/Gogeta is a 100. Four times as strong as Gotenks.

Then SSJG is like 200, a 20x multiplier. Any fusion above is because the fusers are higher than 10x20.
HeroR wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:53 am When Dyspo got serious he was handling both Frieza and Ultimate Gohan. Dyspo isn't a powerhouse like Toppo, but a lot of people downplay how strong he was. He was able to handle Goku switching between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which mean at the very least he would be within 17's power range with his speed allowing him to hit above his weight.
That was Super Dyspo though. He didn’t use that speed against Hit. Base Dyspo got blitzed by Freeza, and he probably only handled Goku because he had to alternate between Blue and God.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:46 pmIf somebody would've asked a few years ago in the Versus Thread: Android 17 vs 7 Cell Jrs, nobody would've said "17 would not only win but tame them like they are his Tamagotchi" :lol:
Yeah it would be funny if that was the explanation in GT. He trained on his own in regular gravity and somehow tamed the Cell Jrs each one several times stronger than him to get to SSJ4 tier. All he had to do was mind control him instead of all the other work thry did. I've read a lot of fanwork and returning fan favorites is a popular idea. Freeza and 17 here had the most impressive comebacks in anything DB related. That's why I think it's a subversion since it's like a OPM explanation. Gohan, Uub, and Broly were prodigies but couldn't achieve much on their own training since they were inexperienced so Freeza and 17 were even more gifted by figuring out how to train properly as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:24 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 am If Super Saiyan God is so powerful and so far above a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito that it wasn't even considered...

Then why is Android 17 almost on their level?

In the manga, Piccolo asked Android 17 what sort of training he had done and his response was

"What sort? Just protecting my island..."

So he went from Piccolo level to Super Saiyan Blue level in 13 years without doing any training?

At least with Gohan you can sprout the potential excuse. Frieza who was Super Saiyan level just from genetics so training could increase his power a ton.
If you're suggesting that Android 17 cannot be Blue tier, then why is his power even relevant here? All Blue tier fighters would simply be unaffected by 17's power. This is just arbitrary. If you acknowledge that Android 17 can be Blue tier, then he realistically can be as powerful as the plot demands him to be. The argument doesn't hold.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:34 am

17's power makes absolutely no sense you have just have to go with it, similar, to how back in the anime Gohan got to SSB level with just a evening of training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:18 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:24 am If you're suggesting that Android 17 cannot be Blue tier, then why is his power even relevant here? All Blue tier fighters would simply be unaffected by 17's power.
not necessarily: a God-class fighter might still be a nuisance for them, especially if he doesn't tire.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:42 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:24 amIf you're suggesting that Android 17 cannot be Blue tier, then why is his power even relevant here? All Blue tier fighters would simply be unaffected by 17's power. This is just arbitrary. If you acknowledge that Android 17 can be Blue tier, then he realistically can be as powerful as the plot demands him to be. The argument doesn't hold.
No I know he's Blue Tier. The reason behind it is just badly written. He's that strong because they just wanted him to be. So what's to stop someone else from wanting Yamcha to be?

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