Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Shouldn't get into a passionate discussion about non canon V-Jump. Which contradicts the manga and Toyotaro's own words about Beerus and Vegetto. It's simply not a factor.

But the V-Jump quote doesn't contradict the manga, it confirms it. And the manga is Toyo's most important word, not what he may or may not imply on interviews, and he isn't any clearer on them either.

[Noah]

I'm not much aware about the manga battle powers, but could someone explain how Gohan is stronger than Kefla?

I think in the anime people have Cabba and his SSJ form way beyond everything in Z (which is an absurd, but hey we have to glorify post God training Goku and Vegeta somehow...)

So Caulifla and Kale might be around that same tier as Goku needed Blue to keep up with their fusion.


But what about the manga? In which tier the U6 Saiyan trio are? Not strong as Boo arc Vegetto, making easy for Gohan to dispose Kefla?

[Koitsukai]

I'm not much aware about the manga battle powers, but could someone explain how Gohan is stronger than Kefla?

I think in the anime people have Cabba and his SSJ form way beyond everything in Z (which is an absurd, but hey we have to glorify post God training Goku and Vegeta somehow...)

So Caulifla and Kale might be around that same tier as Goku needed Blue to keep up with their fusion.


But what about the manga? In which tier the U6 Saiyan trio are? Not strong as Boo arc Vegetto, making easy for Gohan to dispose Kefla?

Gohan got that strong by training off-screen for an arc or two.

Cabba fought evenly with Vegeta in the U6 tournament just like in the anime, maybe he wasn't quite even but still pretty close.
Caulifla was weaker than FF Freeza but she forced him to turn golden as a SS and suffered a lot, not even with Cabba's help they could do a thing. And Kale was in base stronger than Caulifla according to Freeza. SS Kale is blue tier at best, but quickly drains and drops.

I wouldn't say the manga has saiyans base as strong as the anime, Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSG in his base like in the movie, Future Trunks matches Goku in equal forms, Goku believes they have no chance in the U6 tournament unless Mr. Buu joins, but the U6 saiyans are definitely very strong by Z standards.

[Miracles]

Shouldn't get into a passionate discussion about non canon V-Jump. Which contradicts the manga and Toyotaro's own words about Beerus and Vegetto. It's simply not a factor.

But the V-Jump quote doesn't contradict the manga, it confirms it. And the manga is Toyo's most important word, not what he may or may not imply on interviews, and he isn't any clearer on them either.

V-jump doesn't confirm what the manga states. It simply makes an unknown comparison. It does not say that Vegetto and Beerus are equals. Toyotaro's word confirms what the manga stated.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So, here I have a battle scenario for everyone.

Broly, no matter when he would appear in the time line, would always have the same kind of power/potential for growth. That said, even if SS Broly may defeat Anilaza (I'm kinda not convinced yet, given how he faced off against end of ToP characters with ONLY Freeza having trained to have TGolden last longer) would he defeat a combo of Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku, TGolden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?

If he can overwhelm them in a fight, would he win in a beam struggle?

I think that it's a close match.

[Koitsukai]

So, here I have a battle scenario for everyone.

Broly, no matter when he would appear in the time line, would always have the same kind of power/potential for growth. That said, even if SS Broly may defeat Anilaza (I'm kinda not convinced yet, given how he faced off against end of ToP characters with ONLY Freeza having trained to have TGolden last longer) would he defeat a combo of Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku, TGolden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?

If he can overwhelm them in a fight, would he win in a beam struggle?

I think that it's a close match.

I always thought that if Vegeta, Goku and Golden Freeza, instead of fighting on their own, fought him together, they would've at least dealt some damage, after all the boys where quick enough to stay one step away from him and Freeza survived a whole hour. I don't think they'd beat him but it would be a challenge for Broly. Adding Gohan and 17, specially manga Gohan, would definitely give them the win.

And Broly wins every beam struggle.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So, here I have a battle scenario for everyone.

Broly, no matter when he would appear in the time line, would always have the same kind of power/potential for growth. That said, even if SS Broly may defeat Anilaza (I'm kinda not convinced yet, given how he faced off against end of ToP characters with ONLY Freeza having trained to have TGolden last longer) would he defeat a combo of Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku, TGolden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?

If he can overwhelm them in a fight, would he win in a beam struggle?

I think that it's a close match.

I always thought that if Vegeta, Goku and Golden Freeza, instead of fighting on their own, fought him together, they would've at least dealt some damage, after all the boys where quick enough to stay one step away from him and Freeza survived a whole hour. I don't think they'd beat him but it would be a challenge for Broly. Adding Gohan and 17, specially manga Gohan, would definitely give them the win.

And Broly wins every beam struggle.

But what about Aniraza? He didn't only hold up against all 5 individuals at their full power, but pushed them back, until 17 realized that he can damage his core with his barrier to weaken him.

You think that SS Broly can top this easily?

[ssj3kakarot]

So, here I have a battle scenario for everyone.

Broly, no matter when he would appear in the time line, would always have the same kind of power/potential for growth. That said, even if SS Broly may defeat Anilaza (I'm kinda not convinced yet, given how he faced off against end of ToP characters with ONLY Freeza having trained to have TGolden last longer) would he defeat a combo of Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku, TGolden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?

If he can overwhelm them in a fight, would he win in a beam struggle?

I think that it's a close match.

I always thought that if Vegeta, Goku and Golden Freeza, instead of fighting on their own, fought him together, they would've at least dealt some damage, after all the boys where quick enough to stay one step away from him and Freeza survived a whole hour. I don't think they'd beat him but it would be a challenge for Broly. Adding Gohan and 17, specially manga Gohan, would definitely give them the win.

And Broly wins every beam struggle.

But what about Aniraza? He didn't only hold up against all 5 individuals at their full power, but pushed them back, until 17 realized that he can damage his core with his barrier to weaken him.

You think that SS Broly can top this easily?

Not easily, but yes. Whenever Broly has a "whose dick is bigger contest", he always wins. Beam struggle, hands locked mercy contest, always go to Broly. That's how his character is written. He needs to be beaten by some special circumstance.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I always thought that if Vegeta, Goku and Golden Freeza, instead of fighting on their own, fought him together, they would've at least dealt some damage, after all the boys where quick enough to stay one step away from him and Freeza survived a whole hour. I don't think they'd beat him but it would be a challenge for Broly. Adding Gohan and 17, specially manga Gohan, would definitely give them the win.

And Broly wins every beam struggle.

But what about Aniraza? He didn't only hold up against all 5 individuals at their full power, but pushed them back, until 17 realized that he can damage his core with his barrier to weaken him.

You think that SS Broly can top this easily?

Not easily, but yes. Whenever Broly has a "whose dick is bigger contest", he always wins. Beam struggle, hands locked mercy contest, always go to Broly. That's how his character is written. He needs to be beaten by some special circumstance.

Agreed.

From my simple power scaling view, I just have the 2 at the same tier of power. Blue+

I asked this question simply because I have heard of people saying 'SS Broly godstopms anyone below GoD Mode Toppo' and whatnot.

Perhaps one more evolution from Anilaza could place him above KK×20 in Beyond Blue tier. But meh, that's me speculating. I rly enjoyed how Anilaza fought for his size and how he was kind of a callback to Hirudegarn, but with some Janemba abilities lol.

What about SS Kefla? I personally place her below either of these 2. Actually she is roughly equal, but you get what I mean.

[ankokudaishogun]

Not easily, but yes. Whenever Broly has a "whose dick is bigger contest", he always wins. Beam struggle, hands locked mercy contest, always go to Broly. That's how his character is written. He needs to be beaten by some special circumstance.

That's Classic Broly, not Broly:Super, though.

[Dragon Wukong]

I'm not much aware about the manga battle powers, but could someone explain how Gohan is stronger than Kefla?

I think in the anime people have Cabba and his SSJ form way beyond everything in Z (which is an absurd, but hey we have to glorify post God training Goku and Vegeta somehow...)

So Caulifla and Kale might be around that same tier as Goku needed Blue to keep up with their fusion.


But what about the manga? In which tier the U6 Saiyan trio are? Not strong as Boo arc Vegetto, making easy for Gohan to dispose Kefla?

My general mindset is Caulifla is about around Cell arc SS Goku, while Kale is so far above her (being around SSB tier at full strength) that Caulifla didn't add anything to the fusion in terms of power. So I just put Gohan equal to Kale equal to Kefla.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So here I wanted to get some opinions on my entirely fan-made power scale for Super characters. I will add some Manga stuff into the mix, but it's not a comparison. It's just my take on how the Manga would play out in the anime (for the enemy to pose the same threat to both continuities). So let's go

Above GoD tier

1.Blue fusion = 150×Blue

1.Rage boost MUI Goku = 150×Blue

2.Super Full Power Jiren = 130×Blue

3.MUI Goku = 120×Blue

4.Prime Moro = 110×Blue

GoD tier

1.Full Power Jiren = 105×Blue

2.Power Stressed Ultra Instinct Omen = 100×Blue

3.Suppressed Jiren = 55×Blue

4.Pre-Prime Moro = 50×Blue

5.Ultra Instinct Omen = 50×Blue

6.Blue Evolution Vegeta (post Boost) = 40×Blue

7.FPSS Broly = 35×Blue

8.GoD Mode Toppo = 30×Blue

Beyond Blue characters

1.Elder Moro = 25×Blue

2.Kefla SS2 (Overloaded) = +20×Blue

3.Blue KK×20 Goku ≈ Initial Blue Evolution Vegeta

4.Hit (Time Cage) = +10×Blue

5.Blue KK×10 Goku

6.SS Broly = 6×Blue

7.Anilaza = 5×Blue

8.SS2 Kefla = 4×Blue

9.Grotesque Merged Zamasu/Manga's power weighted Merged Zamasu = 4×Blue (the only reason it can be higher is because of the Vegito sequence, but for post-ToP stuff, it isn't rly relevant)

10.Blue KK Goku

11.Halo Merged Zamasu = 2-3×Blue

Roughly on the same Blue tier characters

1.SS Kefla is an ambiguous character. She can probably defeat blue tiers, but we can't know how she would deal with Blue Goku at full power, or any blue tier from post-top

1.Blue Goku ≈ Blue Vegeta ≈True Golden Freeza

2.Enraged SSRose Goku Black

3.Broly (Wrathful II)

4.Toppo

5.Hit

6.Powerhouse Saganbo

7.Dyspo (Super Light speed Mode)


This is made for fun. So I'm open to changes, but tbh I more want to know what you think about this scale, rather than debating all over again why one guy is stronger than the other. This is my scale for post top levels.

[Sadala Elite]

So here I wanted to get some opinions on my entirely fan-made power scale for Super characters. I will add some Manga stuff into the mix, but it's not a comparison. It's just my take on how the Manga would play out in the anime (for the enemy to pose the same threat to both continuities). So let's go

Above GoD tier

1.Blue fusion = 150×Blue

1.Rage boost MUI Goku = 150×Blue

2.Super Full Power Jiren = 130×Blue

3.MUI Goku = 120×Blue

4.Prime Moro = 110×Blue

GoD tier

1.Full Power Jiren = 105×Blue

2.Power Stressed Ultra Instinct Omen = 100×Blue

3.Suppressed Jiren = 55×Blue

4.Pre-Prime Moro = 50×Blue

5.Ultra Instinct Omen = 50×Blue

6.Blue Evolution Vegeta (post Boost) = 40×Blue

7.FPSS Broly = 35×Blue

8.GoD Mode Toppo = 30×Blue

Beyond Blue characters

1.Elder Moro = 25×Blue

2.Kefla SS2 (Overloaded) = +20×Blue

3.Blue KK×20 Goku ≈ Initial Blue Evolution Vegeta

4.Hit (Time Cage) = +10×Blue

5.Blue KK×10 Goku

6.SS Broly = 6×Blue

7.Anilaza = 5×Blue

8.SS2 Kefla = 4×Blue

9.Grotesque Merged Zamasu/Manga's power weighted Merged Zamasu = 4×Blue (the only reason it can be higher is because of the Vegito sequence, but for post-ToP stuff, it isn't rly relevant)

10.Blue KK Goku

11.Halo Merged Zamasu = 2-3×Blue

Roughly on the same Blue tier characters

1.SS Kefla is an ambiguous character. She can probably defeat blue tiers, but we can't know how she would deal with Blue Goku at full power, or any blue tier from post-top

1.Blue Goku ≈ Blue Vegeta ≈True Golden Freeza

2.Enraged SSRose Goku Black

3.Broly (Wrathful II)

4.Toppo

5.Hit

6.Powerhouse Saganbo

7.Dyspo (Super Light speed Mode)


This is made for fun. So I'm open to changes, but tbh I more want to know what you think about this scale, rather than debating all over again why one guy is stronger than the other. This is my scale for post top levels.

This seems reasonable

[Koitsukai]

So here I wanted to get some opinions on my entirely fan-made power scale for Super characters. I will add some Manga stuff into the mix, but it's not a comparison. It's just my take on how the Manga would play out in the anime (for the enemy to pose the same threat to both continuities). So let's go

Above GoD tier

1.Blue fusion = 150×Blue

1.Rage boost MUI Goku = 150×Blue

2.Super Full Power Jiren = 130×Blue

3.MUI Goku = 120×Blue

4.Prime Moro = 110×Blue

GoD tier

1.Full Power Jiren = 105×Blue

2.Power Stressed Ultra Instinct Omen = 100×Blue

3.Suppressed Jiren = 55×Blue

4.Pre-Prime Moro = 50×Blue

5.Ultra Instinct Omen = 50×Blue

6.Blue Evolution Vegeta (post Boost) = 40×Blue

7.FPSS Broly = 35×Blue

8.GoD Mode Toppo = 30×Blue

Beyond Blue characters

1.Elder Moro = 25×Blue

2.Kefla SS2 (Overloaded) = +20×Blue

3.Blue KK×20 Goku ≈ Initial Blue Evolution Vegeta

4.Hit (Time Cage) = +10×Blue

5.Blue KK×10 Goku

6.SS Broly = 6×Blue

7.Anilaza = 5×Blue

8.SS2 Kefla = 4×Blue

9.Grotesque Merged Zamasu/Manga's power weighted Merged Zamasu = 4×Blue (the only reason it can be higher is because of the Vegito sequence, but for post-ToP stuff, it isn't rly relevant)

10.Blue KK Goku

11.Halo Merged Zamasu = 2-3×Blue

Roughly on the same Blue tier characters

1.SS Kefla is an ambiguous character. She can probably defeat blue tiers, but we can't know how she would deal with Blue Goku at full power, or any blue tier from post-top

1.Blue Goku ≈ Blue Vegeta ≈True Golden Freeza

2.Enraged SSRose Goku Black

3.Broly (Wrathful II)

4.Toppo

5.Hit

6.Powerhouse Saganbo

7.Dyspo (Super Light speed Mode)


This is made for fun. So I'm open to changes, but tbh I more want to know what you think about this scale, rather than debating all over again why one guy is stronger than the other. This is my scale for post top levels.

Yes, this works.

I would ask you where do you place base and SS Gogeta.

I wouldn't put Hit and Toppo higher than Powerhouse Saganbo, but it's impossible to measure really.

I'd say SS Broly is 45xBlue, and FPSS Broly a little higher, between 75-100xBlue.

Beyond Blue Characters.
There's been a lot of Moros in this arc but I don't think any Elder Moro was blue tier, IIRC, they said blue would be enough if it weren't for the absorption problem. I don't think he belongs there. I would give Toppo 35x to be closer to Vegeta's 40x.
And Kefla is a pain in the ass, to me she is great with 30xBlue at full power and 25x as regular SS2. I'd put SS Kefla at 4-5x Blue, after all I think her SS would require at least some form of blue kaioken from Goku.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So here I wanted to get some opinions on my entirely fan-made power scale for Super characters. I will add some Manga stuff into the mix, but it's not a comparison. It's just my take on how the Manga would play out in the anime (for the enemy to pose the same threat to both continuities). So let's go

List


This is made for fun. So I'm open to changes, but tbh I more want to know what you think about this scale, rather than debating all over again why one guy is stronger than the other. This is my scale for post top levels.

Yes, this works.

I would ask you where do you place base and SS Gogeta.

I wouldn't put Hit and Toppo higher than Powerhouse Saganbo, but it's impossible to measure really.

I'd say SS Broly is 45xBlue, and FPSS Broly a little higher, between 75-100xBlue.

Beyond Blue Characters.
There's been a lot of Moros in this arc but I don't think any Elder Moro was blue tier, IIRC, they said blue would be enough if it weren't for the absorption problem. I don't think he belongs there. I would give Toppo 35x to be closer to Vegeta's 40x.
And Kefla is a pain in the ass, to me she is great with 30xBlue at full power and 25x as regular SS2. I'd put SS Kefla at 4-5x Blue, after all I think her SS would require at least some form of blue kaioken from Goku.

I see what you mean. I added Elder Moro in beyond blue for the reason that he did force Vegeta to use his Evolved Perfected Blue to atleast get closer. But I guess, with no planet to absorb energy from, he should be lower. Which is perhaps how Daikaioshin and South Supreme Kai dealt with him in the past. So a suggestion for Elder Moro with no planet to absorb?

As for Hit and Toppo, I kinda questioned how well Saganbo can fight against them. Toppo is faster than expected and Hit has techniques that can be lethal to him. Seeing how Blue Goku dealt with him relatively easily, he may or may not be able to defeat the other 2. I will scale him up for consistency purposes.

SS Gogeta is a big problem for me. SSGod Gogeta is roughly on par with GoD Mode Toppo. By that logic SS Gogeta shouldn't be blue tier. But since this is how it happened and the plot demands it, he should probably be equal to SS Broly. Who I'm not sure if I should move up, given how he failed at killing Freeza while bloodlusted. And initially even Blue Goku kinda held his own against him. Ofc Fusion was the answer, but without Goku and Vegeta using Beyond Blue forms, I can't think if SS Broly should reach that kind of power. But as a FPSS I don't rly care. He can be far superior. I may actually boost this form immediately above Omen Goku. I just placed him above Toppo, for the consistency of possibly rivaling a GoD.

I can boost Kefla by that much. And since we can boost Toppo and Broly, it won't cause any issues regarding their scaling. I always found her final power up as something different than simply powering up SS2. But what I don't believe is SS Kefla requiring more than KK×20 to be dealt with.


Above GoD tier

1.Blue fusion = 150×Blue

1.Rage boost MUI Goku = 150×Blue

2.Super Full Power Jiren = 130×Blue

3.MUI Goku = 120×Blue

4.Prime Moro = 110×Blue

GoD tier

1.Full Power Jiren = 105×Blue

2.Power Stressed Ultra Instinct Omen = 100×Blue

3.FPSS Broly = 75×Blue

4.Suppressed Jiren = 55×Blue

5.Pre-Prime Moro = 50×Blue

6.Ultra Instinct Omen = 50×Blue

7.Blue Evolution Vegeta (post Boost) = 40×Blue

8.GoD Mode Toppo = 35×Blue

9.SS2 Kefla (Overloaded) = 30×Blue

Beyond Blue characters

1.Elder Moro = 25×Blue (Absorbtion power ups included)

2.SS2 Kefla = 25×Blue

3.Blue KK×20 Goku ≈ Initial Blue Evolution Vegeta

4.Hit (Time Cage) = +10×Blue

5.Blue KK×10 Goku

6.SS Gogeta = 6×Blue

6.SS Broly = 6×Blue

7.Anilaza = 5×Blue

8.SS Kefla is an ambiguous character. She can probably defeat blue tiers, but we can't know how she would deal with Blue Goku at full power, or any blue tier from post-top. But maybe she is = 4-5×Blue

9.Grotesque Merged Zamasu/Manga's power weighted Merged Zamasu = 4×Blue (the only reason it can be higher is because of the Vegito sequence, but for post-ToP stuff, it isn't rly relevant)

10.Blue KK Goku

11.Halo Merged Zamasu = 2-3×Blue

Roughly on the same Blue tier characters

1.Blue Goku ≈ Blue Vegeta ≈True Golden Freeza

1.Elder Moro

2.Enraged SSRose Goku Black

3.Broly (Wrathful II)

4.Powerhouse Saganbo

5.Toppo

6.Hit

7.Dyspo (Super Light speed Mode)

I don't think I'm forgetting someone from this. Either way, I can even add characters from the Prison Planet and Universe Conflict Arcs into this, since they scaled with post-top folks. I just always have this scale in my mind before debating about any character. This is how I envisioned the Top by the end and after.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

[DBZ Macky]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

Yes.

Also, nothing rly indicates superior power to this form. But as everyone can see, FPSS goes nuts with its power.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

It still wouldn't make any sense. Why is Super Saiyan Gogeta only 6x Blue when even Base Gogeta was outperforming Blue something that also happened in the manga with Zamasu.

[DBZ Macky]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

It still wouldn't make any sense. Why is Super Saiyan Gogeta only 6x Blue when even Base Gogeta was outperforming Blue something that also happened in the manga with Zamasu.

Because Base Gogeta "outperforming" Blue Goku is pretty much an example of the Mandela effect. All Base Gogeta did was dodge or parry Broly's Ki Blasts while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta actually traded blows with him, even Freeza was able to survive Broly's onslaught for an hour while Gogeta was just running away from Broly's attacks and didn't fight back till he himself transformed into a Super Saiyan.

Vegito got a cheap shot at Zamasu and instantly transformed into Blue. If he really was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, then he'd have no reason to go Blue and could probably easily stomp Zamasu with regular Super Saiyan considering the following:

Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft.

At worst, the fusions are some dozen times stronger than their un-fused counterparts, and at best, they're somewhere around their (Red) Super Saiyan God states. I personally go with the latter, considering how Kefla was able to overpower SSG Goku, though one could argue that the guy was just really fatigued.