Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Noah]

Seeing as how Kuririn is going to fight Gohan (and Goku) next episode, with Goku fighting Mr. Boo in the following one, we should hopefully get a good way to measure how strong the characters actually are (and how strong Goku actually is after all the God bullshit and the power retconning going around).

Sadly I'm not optimistic like you, I think Super probably will mess up things real BIG this time. Having current Base Gohan who is somewhat stronger than his Boo arc counterpart or Piccolo (RoF arc) to suffer against Krillin is terrible but I think Gohan is just holding back a ton against him as for Goku turning SSJB it could just be him being the same exhibitionist bastard as usual.

As for Goku sparring with a trained Mr. Boo I would find extremely stupid if he didn't turned at least SSJ2 in this, but I can see him fighting in Base which would screw things even more.

[Doctor.]

Sadly I'm not optimistic like you, I think Super probably will mess up things real BIG this time. Having current Base Gohan who is somewhat stronger than his Boo arc counterpart or Piccolo (RoF arc) to suffer against Krillin is terrible but I think Gohan is just holding back a ton against him as for Goku turning SSJB it could just be him being the same exhibitionist bastard as usual.

It just means Kuririn is that strong now. We shouldn't really take the movie retellings as a good way to measure the characters, Gohan should still be around the same level as he was in the Boo arc (aka weaker than Freeza in base form).

As for Goku sparring with a trained Mr. Boo I would find extremely stupid if he didn't turned at least SSJ2 in this, but I can see him fighting in Base which would screw things even more.

I can see him only going SS (which would mean Goku is now at least SS2 Boo arc level in his SS form) and going SSB to finish it.

[pacz360]

Sadly I'm not optimistic like you, I think Super probably will mess up things real BIG this time. Having current Base Gohan who is somewhat stronger than his Boo arc counterpart or Piccolo (RoF arc) to suffer against Krillin is terrible but I think Gohan is just holding back a ton against him as for Goku turning SSJB it could just be him being the same exhibitionist bastard as usual.

It just means Kuririn is that strong now. We shouldn't really take the movie retellings as a good way to measure the characters, Gohan should still be around the same level as he was in the Boo arc (aka weaker than Freeza in base form).

As for Goku sparring with a trained Mr. Boo I would find extremely stupid if he didn't turned at least SSJ2 in this, but I can see him fighting in Base which would screw things even more.

I can see him only going SS (which would mean Goku is now at least SS2 Boo arc level in his SS form) and going SSB to finish it.

Why are we assuming buu didn't get any stronger from his training?

[Doctor.]

Why are we assuming buu didn't get any stronger from his training?

I can see him getting stronger, but I'm pretty sure the whole fight is going to be played for laughs.

"Oh, Boo, you're slim now! And you're so strong! I may need to go full power to settle this."
Flash-forward to the tournament.
"Oh no! Boo ate a lot and slept for hours, now he's fat and weak again!"

[pacz360]

Why are we assuming buu didn't get any stronger from his training?

I can see him getting stronger, but I'm pretty sure the whole fight is going to be played for laughs.

"Oh, Boo, you're slim now! And you're so strong! I may need to go full power to settle this."
Flash-forward to the tournament.
"Oh no! Boo ate a lot and slept for hours, now he's fat and weak again!"

It's not like he can't use his slim form as an alternate form
Besides the guy can shapeshift anyway.

[Noah]

It just means Kuririn is that strong now. We shouldn't really take the movie retellings as a good way to measure the characters, Gohan should still be around the same level as he was in the Boo arc (aka weaker than Freeza in base form).

I can see him only going SS (which would mean Goku is now at least SS2 Boo arc level in his SS form) and going SSB to finish it.

Er... No, we should consider the series as a whole as there's no easy way to argue with Super power levels, Gohan can't be at the same level he was in early Boo arc, it doesn't make sense as against Tagoma it implies he transforms into a SSJ again to bring some portion of his lost 'Ultimate' state power back, Gohan then trained with Piccolo a few times so he got a bit stronger too and the key point he had a sparring match with SSJ Goku the one you're saying it would be enough to fight a trained Mr. Boo, so in the end would be:

SSJ Goku = trained Mr. Boo > SSJ Gohan > Base Goku > Base Gohan = Krillin > Piccolo (RoF) > SSJ Goten/Trunks

It's very inconsistent.

[pacz360]

It just means Kuririn is that strong now. We shouldn't really take the movie retellings as a good way to measure the characters, Gohan should still be around the same level as he was in the Boo arc (aka weaker than Freeza in base form).

I can see him only going SS (which would mean Goku is now at least SS2 Boo arc level in his SS form) and going SSB to finish it.

Er... No, we should consider the series as a whole as there's no easy way to argue with Super power levels, Gohan can't be at the same level he was in early Boo arc, it doesn't make sense as against Tagoma it implies he transforms into a SSJ again to bring some portion of his lost 'Ultimate' state power back, Gohan then trained with Piccolo a few times so he got a bit stronger too and the key point he had a sparring match with SSJ Goku the one you're saying it would be enough to fight a trained Mr. Boo, so in the end would be:

SSJ Goku = trained Mr. Boo > SSJ Gohan > Base Goku > Base Gohan = Krillin > Piccolo (RoF) > SSJ Goten/Trunks

It's very inconsistent.

We need to this weeks episode to where krillin stands in power instead judging on a preview as it won't tell us the whole thing. Besides krillin been training recently as stated by goku and learned a new technique that could help boost him.

[Noah]

We need to this weeks episode to where krillin stands in power instead judging on a preview as it won't tell us the whole thing. Besides krillin been training recently as stated by goku and learned a new technique that could help boost him.

No training in such a short time would make Krillin on par with Base Gohan now, but I could dig this new technique thing being one of the reasons of him doing well in this sparring match.

[Doctor.]

it doesn't make sense as against Tagoma it implies he transforms into a SSJ again to bring some portion of his lost 'Ultimate' state power back, Gohan then trained with Piccolo a few times so he got a bit stronger too and the key point he had a sparring match with SSJ Goku the one you're saying it would be enough to fight a trained Mr. Boo, so in the end would be:

SSJ Goku = trained Mr. Boo > SSJ Gohan > Base Goku > Base Gohan = Krillin > Piccolo (RoF) > SSJ Goten/Trunks

It's very inconsistent.

That's not really implied anywhere, people just took quotes out of context and used mistranslations to back up their argument. What we saw in the F arc:

- Nobody was a match for Tagoma, base Gohan included
- SS Gohan was stronger than Tagoma/Ginyu

Piccolo is even implied to be above base Goku and Vegeta in the universal tournament (or else Vegeta wouldn't have gone SS to defeat Frost).

Gohan should be at the same level as he was in the Boo arc, more-or-less.

[Noah]

That's not really implied anywhere, people just took quotes out of context and used mistranslations to back up their argument. What we saw in the F arc:

- Nobody was a match for Tagoma, base Gohan included
- SS Gohan was stronger than Tagoma/Ginyu

Piccolo is even implied to be above base Goku and Vegeta in the universal tournament (or else Vegeta wouldn't have gone SS to defeat Frost).

Gohan should be at the same level as he was in the Boo arc, more-or-less.

Yes it was. Gohan said he couldn't bring his full power yet again (His full power = Ultimate state) that he need to transform in a Super Saiyan once again to bring out.

Why are we assuming Gohan didn't get any stronger from his training with Piccolo?

Why are you ignoring the events presented in Episode 75 (Goku vs. Gohan)?

It's easy to have back up arguments, ignoring stuff, mate.

[Doctor.]

Yes, it was Gohan said he couldn't bring his full power yet again (His full power = Ultimate state)

Yes (though his full power doesn't automatically mean his ultimate state, especially because that wasn't said anywhere, but I'll agree for the sake of the argument).

that he need to transform in a Super Saiyan once again to bring out.

No, this wasn't said anywhere. You're making assumptions. Just because he went Super Saiyan doesn't mean he was able to bring out his full power, because that wasn't said anywhere.

Why are we assuming Gohan didn't get any stronger from his training with Piccolo?

Why are you ignoring the events presented in Episode 75 (Goku vs. Gohan)?

What about those events? He got stronger, yes, what about it? Goku should also still be at the same level as he was in the Boo arc (I said he's going to use SS against Boo, that was a prediction; until that episode airs, we have no reason to believe he's significantly stronger than he was in the Boo arc). Any increase at this point is unbelievably small compared to God tiers.

[Noah]

No, this wasn't said anywhere. You're making assumptions. Just because he went Super Saiyan doesn't mean he was able to bring out his full power, because that wasn't said anywhere.

Nope, not quite his full power but some portion of it. Gohan says he has no choice but to do it and that his current body might not maintain. Would you assume Gohan got so weak sometime after BoG arc that turning a common SSJ is now a pain for him? When 7 years slacking off just made him rusty and weaker but not by a huge amount in comparison to his peak at the Cell Games? Doesn't seem something to believe it. Him turning a Super Saiyan and suffering through it should be because he lost his 'Ultimate' state and then used a cheap way to force it back.

What about those events? He got stronger, yes, what about it? Goku should also still be at the same level as he was in the Boo arc (I said he's going to use SS against Boo, that was a prediction; until that episode airs, we have no reason to believe he's significantly stronger than he was in the Boo arc). Any increase at this point is unbelievably small compared to God tiers.

Goku can't be the same level he was in Boo arc, he trained a few times in King Kai Planet, with Whis, and then he trained 3 years straight in RoSaT. It's nonsensical to think he hasn't improved a bit after these sessions. I don't see how Goku would still train knowing it wouldn't make him stronger anymore.

[Doctor.]

Nope, not quite his full power but some portion of it. Gohan says he has no choice but to do it and that his current body might not maintain. Would you assume Gohan got so weak sometime after BoG arc that turning a common SSJ is now a pain for him?

That seems to be the implication.

When 7 years slacking off just made him rusty and weaker but not by a huge amount in comparison to his peak at the Cell Games? Doesn't seem something to believe it. Him turning a Super Saiyan and suffering through it should be because he lost his 'Ultimate' state and then used a cheap way to force it back.

It doesn't matter if it feels believable or not, what matters is what the story tells us. And it tells us that Gohan is rusty and turning Super Saiyan is difficult for him. Anything else is merely an assumption/theory.

Goku can't be the same level he was in Boo arc, he trained a few times in King Kai Planet, with Whis, and then he trained 3 years straight in RoSaT. It's nonsensical to think he hasn't improved a bit after these sessions. I don't see how Goku would still train knowing it wouldn't make him stronger anymore.

Again, Goku has gotten stronger, yes, but the boosts in strength he's getting are so minimal compared to the God tiers that they're almost insignificant. He didn't get significantly stronger, even Vegeta tells him they won't get much stronger by training 3 years in the RoSaT.

To put it in numbers:

Goku's base form in the Boo arc: 1
Goku's base form now: 2
God Tiers: 1,000,000

You realize what I mean? Even if he doubled his power, it's still an insignificant boost.

[pacz360]

Nope, not quite his full power but some portion of it. Gohan says he has no choice but to do it and that his current body might not maintain. Would you assume Gohan got so weak sometime after BoG arc that turning a common SSJ is now a pain for him?

That seems to be the implication.

When 7 years slacking off just made him rusty and weaker but not by a huge amount in comparison to his peak at the Cell Games? Doesn't seem something to believe it. Him turning a Super Saiyan and suffering through it should be because he lost his 'Ultimate' state and then used a cheap way to force it back.

It doesn't matter if it feels believable or not, what matters is what the story tells us. And it tells us that Gohan is rusty and turning Super Saiyan is difficult for him. Anything else is merely an assumption/theory.

Goku can't be the same level he was in Boo arc, he trained a few times in King Kai Planet, with Whis, and then he trained 3 years straight in RoSaT. It's nonsensical to think he hasn't improved a bit after these sessions. I don't see how Goku would still train knowing it wouldn't make him stronger anymore.

Again, Goku has gotten stronger, yes, but the boosts in strength he's getting are so minimal compared to the God tiers that they're almost insignificant. He didn't get significantly stronger, even Vegeta tells him they won't get much stronger by training 3 years in the RoSaT.

To put it in numbers:

Goku's base form in the Boo arc: 1
Goku's base form now: 2
God Tiers: 1,000,000

You realize what I mean? Even if he doubled his power, it's still an insignificant boost.

To assume goku ssj form is at the same strength as it was buu saga is stupid considering the events of bog and the following after unless stated or implied theres nothing implying goku ssj form is at the same power as it was before.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Only thing that's weird with the power scale, concerning Gohan is that although it may be 'implied' that he struggled to go SSJ in the Frieza arc, he is head-and-shoulders above most of the non-god cast just by turning SSJ, apart from perhaps an enraged Buu being near him, which puts him, at low to mid SS3 tier, literally in his own tier, which is really confusing considering he hasn't even been able to use SS2, making his Base so strong..

[pacz360]

So anyone wanna predict what's krillin new technique will be?

[Doctor.]

So anyone wanna predict what's krillin new technique will be?

Some kind of field that sets all power levels to the same exact number.

[Ki Breaker]

So anyone wanna predict what's krillin new technique will be?

God ki

[Noah]

It doesn't matter if it feels believable or not, what matters is what the story tells us. And it tells us that Gohan is rusty and turning Super Saiyan is difficult for him. Anything else is merely an assumption/theory.

Of course it matters, then you can't argue with people who thinks Super should be viewed as its own thing because ignores plot points established in Z, like Gohan having spent even more time without training in Z and wasn't worse like it was in RoF arc having difficulty to turn into a mere Super Saiyan.

Again, Goku has gotten stronger, yes, but the boosts in strength he's getting are so minimal compared to the God tiers that they're almost insignificant. He didn't get significantly stronger, even Vegeta tells him they won't get much stronger by training 3 years in the RoSaT.

It's funny because in your post above you said my arguments were just assumptions, I could say the same about this setence of yours. What even implies that his boosts training were minimal? Why he did even care to train to improve so little? Yes, Vegeta said they are probably on their limit and won't improve much beyond that and then later Vegeta goes to RoSaT again, alone with much less time spent and surpass both Goku and Black, so not really a good argument.

[perucho1990]

So anyone wanna predict what's krillin new technique will be?

As crazy as it sounds, I'm going with kaioken.

Remember that Krillin and Goku were going to spar again at the end of episode 76, maybe Goku taught him Kaioken because Krillin has now perfect Ki control and IIRC you need that in order to use that technique.

BTW
This is my ranking so far without including the Gods and fused characters

Tier 0:
Genkidama Trunks

Tier 1:
Jiren

Tier 2:
KK Goku
Full Power Toppo
Scythe Black
Unrestricted Hit(without any knoweldge)

Tier 3:
Unrestricted Hit (with knowledge)
Pre Scythe Black
Blue Goku
Blue Vegeta
SSJ Ikari Trunks
Supressed Toppo
Amped Bergamo

Thoughts on this, guys?