Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Vegito got a cheap shot at Zamasu and instantly transformed into Blue. If he really was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, then he'd have no reason to go Blue and could probably easily stomp Zamasu with regular Super Saiyan considering the following

Just because Vegito was stronger than Blue doesn't mean he was also stronger than Zamasu enough to also overcome his regeneration on top of that.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If Broly is as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue then why is Super Saiyan Broly only 6x stronger?

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

It still wouldn't make any sense. Why is Super Saiyan Gogeta only 6x Blue when even Base Gogeta was outperforming Blue something that also happened in the manga with Zamasu.

Multipliers don't really matter. Hate to ruin it for ya. Unless specified or unless we power scale it naturally, Base Gogeta can be Blue tier, but Blue Gogeta only 150 times stronger or something.

I learned that by restricting myself to 'multipliers' no list would make sense and there would always be unjustified actions from characters. So instead, I follow a pure power scale logic of the character being as strong as necessary to deal with their foes.

Vegito got a cheap shot at Zamasu and instantly transformed into Blue. If he really was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, then he'd have no reason to go Blue and could probably easily stomp Zamasu with regular Super Saiyan considering the following

Just because Vegito was stronger than Blue doesn't mean he was also stronger than Zamasu enough to also overcome his regeneration on top of that.

Here is where what I said comes into play. It is possible that God Vegito would have been enough for Zamasu. But he went Blue cause we needed for a fusion to go Blue at some point. Unless Zamasu was shown as much greater of a threat, Vegito shouldnt have used Blue.

But ofc he is immortal. It's about Vegito believing that he needs the extra power, but instead it's about the Supreme Kais saying that there might be a possibility to defeat him with huge strength. Hense Vegito Blue. But what happened, happened.

And I may say that Vegito was playing in the whole fight. In their first clash, he just played along until he could use the spirit sword to see if it can work. Then Zamasu went giant and Vegito just powered up and still performed as well. But he was fed up with punches and thus charged a FKHH. Never was he pushed back in a strength struggle, unless he wanted to.

Who knows how he would proceed if the fusion didn't get undone.

[SupremeKai25]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

And I may say that Vegito was playing in the whole fight. In their first clash, he just played along until he could use the spirit sword to see if it can work. Then Zamasu went giant and Vegito just powered up and still performed as well. But he was fed up with punches and thus charged a FKHH. Never was he pushed back in a strength struggle, unless he wanted to.

Not exactly. Vegito was not playing around when Zamasu punched him in the guts, nor was he playing around when he was scared by Zamasu's eye blast.

[Grand Marshal 1]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

I mean yes? Kinda? Maybe? Not sure lol

Imo, Merged Zamasu was not presented as the threat he was meant to be. Not only should Goku and Co have not faced him, but they should immediately use the potara of they wanted Zamasu to be in Vegito Blue's league.

I'm afraid that we have no indication on whether he could be above Base and SS Vegito or not. I would say he is for consistency reasons, but at the same time, way below Blue.

[SupremeKai25]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

I mean yes? Kinda? Maybe? Not sure lol

Imo, Merged Zamasu was not presented as the threat he was meant to be. Not only should Goku and Co have not faced him, but they should immediately use the potara of they wanted Zamasu to be in Vegito Blue's league.

I'm afraid that we have no indication on whether he could be above Base and SS Vegito or not. I would say he is for consistency reasons, but at the same time, way below Blue.

I know it's kind of a random question, but you always hear people saying that Vegito was much stronger than Zamasu in the manga to the point that it was a stomp. Just wondering if Zamasu would demolish Vegito if he did not have SSB.

Fused Zamasu was definitely relative to SSB Vegito in the anime though.

[Grand Marshal 1]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

I mean yes? Kinda? Maybe? Not sure lol

Imo, Merged Zamasu was not presented as the threat he was meant to be. Not only should Goku and Co have not faced him, but they should immediately use the potara of they wanted Zamasu to be in Vegito Blue's league.

I'm afraid that we have no indication on whether he could be above Base and SS Vegito or not. I would say he is for consistency reasons, but at the same time, way below Blue.

I know it's kind of a random question, but you always hear people saying that Vegito was much stronger than Zamasu in the manga to the point that it was a stomp. Just wondering if Zamasu would demolish Vegito if he did not have SSB.

Fused Zamasu was definitely relative to SSB Vegito in the anime though.

It's difficult to answer because there is no medium to scale everything with. It's either, Base, SS or Blue.

We may say that between Base and SS the difference isn't much (still important) but between either of these and Blue, it's a titanic gap. If SS3 even, or God at least, we're used in fights more, I belive the scaling would make more sense. For all we know, Base fusions can probably deal with attacks from stronger foes (Zamasu, Broly), but also prefer to use Blue for the Ki control maybe? Ig Blue can actually be suppressed from SS levels to multiple times SSG. The only logical explanation without adding multipliers into the mix.

But again, I still scale Merged Zamasu in my post-ToP lists, because he is still strong.

[Dragon Wukong]

I assumed Vegito used SSB to overpower Zamasu because he assumed he had a whole hour and could effectively restrain him during that duration. Not because he had to use SSB. If he didn't know he might've used a lesser form to take him on.

[ZombieVito]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

And I may say that Vegito was playing in the whole fight. In their first clash, he just played along until he could use the spirit sword to see if it can work. Then Zamasu went giant and Vegito just powered up and still performed as well. But he was fed up with punches and thus charged a FKHH. Never was he pushed back in a strength struggle, unless he wanted to.

Not exactly. Vegito was not playing around when Zamasu punched him in the guts, nor was he playing around when he was scared by Zamasu's eye blast.

Before I would have said yes to Fused Zamasu being above those forms but then the Broly movie happened.

Base Gogeta was on the level of a perfected Blue character so base Vegetto should also be at that level making him relative to Fused Zamasu. Super Saiyan being a 50 times boost should be more than enough for Vegetto to dominate Fused Zamasu but then that wouldn't look as cool right?

In the anime it's a completely different story. Fused Zamasu got a massive power up when going corrupted and he somewhat gave Vegetto Blue more of a fight but even when going giant he was still under Vegetto Blue when it came to power. If I had to give a number I would put giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu at an 8 to Vegetto's 10.

[Grand Marshal 1]

While it's clear that Fused Zamasu was no match for SSB Vegito in the manga, does the fact that Vegito had to go SSB prove that Fused Zamasu was easily above Base/SSJ Vegito?

And I may say that Vegito was playing in the whole fight. In their first clash, he just played along until he could use the spirit sword to see if it can work. Then Zamasu went giant and Vegito just powered up and still performed as well. But he was fed up with punches and thus charged a FKHH. Never was he pushed back in a strength struggle, unless he wanted to.

Not exactly. Vegito was not playing around when Zamasu punched him in the guts, nor was he playing around when he was scared by Zamasu's eye blast.

Before I would have said yes to Fused Zamasu being above those forms but then the Broly movie happened.

Base Gogeta was on the level of a perfected Blue character so base Vegetto should also be at that level making him relative to Fused Zamasu. Super Saiyan being a 50 times boost should be more than enough for Vegetto to dominate Fused Zamasu but then that wouldn't look as cool right?

In the anime it's a completely different story. Fused Zamasu got a massive power up when going corrupted and he somewhat gave Vegetto Blue more of a fight but even when going giant he was still under Vegetto Blue when it came to power. If I had to give a number I would put giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu at an 8 to Vegetto's 10.

Yes. For all intentions and purposes, Merged Zamasu was up there. In the ToP scale, somewhere below 1st Omen Goku and Supressed Jiren. Ofc Vegito being above him.

[Lionel]

If you ask me, what Zamasu should have done was restrain Vegetto with his psychic powers and then biokinetically constrict his air passageways until he died a la Babidi and Shin in the future timeline.

Power wise, if Vegetto was oh so much more powerful, why would he exert himself with an all out assault, aura and all, to annihilate his opponent? Yes, the time limit of Potara coupled with the drainage of blue do pose hurdles, but he could have just as easily annihilated Zamasu with a casual blast similar to Freeza killing Dende's sibling with a Death Beam if the difference was dimensions vast or something.

[Mad Swami]

If you ask me, what Zamasu should have done was restrain Vegetto with his psychic powers and then biokinetically constrict his air passageways until he died a la Babidi and Shin in the future timeline.

Power wise, if Vegetto was oh so much more powerful, why would he exert himself with an all out assault, aura and all, to annihilate his opponent? Yes, the time limit of Potara coupled with the drainage of blue do pose hurdles, but he could have just as easily annihilated Zamasu with a casual blast similar to Freeza killing Dende's sibling with a Death Beam if the difference was dimensions vast or something.

I would have prefered if Vegito was Gogeta, and I would have liked it for him to fight the infinite Zamasu of the manga.

[ZombieVito]

Yes. For all intentions and purposes, Merged Zamasu was up there. In the ToP scale, somewhere below 1st Omen Goku and Supressed Jiren. Ofc Vegito being above him.

I personally don't have Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu under even 2nd Omen Goku.

While his normal Corrupted form I do have under Kefla, GoD Toppo and the rest.

[Sadala Elite]

Perhaps it's because Broly's "Ikari" state is technically different from his Base. So SS can still be a 50x multiplier and his "Ikari" state can be 10x.

It still wouldn't make any sense. Why is Super Saiyan Gogeta only 6x Blue when even Base Gogeta was outperforming Blue something that also happened in the manga with Zamasu.

Because Base Gogeta "outperforming" Blue Goku is pretty much an example of the Mandela effect. All Base Gogeta did was dodge or parry Broly's Ki Blasts while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta actually traded blows with him, even Freeza was able to survive Broly's onslaught for an hour while Gogeta was just running away from Broly's attacks and didn't fight back till he himself transformed into a Super Saiyan.

Vegito got a cheap shot at Zamasu and instantly transformed into Blue. If he really was stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, then he'd have no reason to go Blue and could probably easily stomp Zamasu with regular Super Saiyan considering the following:

Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft.

At worst, the fusions are some dozen times stronger than their un-fused counterparts, and at best, they're somewhere around their (Red) Super Saiyan God states. I personally go with the latter, considering how Kefla was able to overpower SSG Goku, though one could argue that the guy was just really fatigued.

These are bad arguments. The fact that Base Gogeta could causally parry and defend against SSJ1 Broly at all is proof that he was stronger than normal SSB Goku/Vegeta.

And the Vegito argument doesn't work. In the anime, that Merged Zamasu that Vegito fought wasn't the same strength as the one SSB Goku/Vegeta & Trunks did (this was after M.Zamasu got massively stronger from hitting himself with the Lightning of Absolution and getting the purple arm, which cause Goku and Vegeta to decide to fuse at all). And the manga, M.Zamasu himself acknowledged Base Vegito as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, saying to himself that he might actually have a challenge now.

Fusion is officially a AxB multiplier of both partners power leading to the base fusion, hence why Base Kefla > SSJ2 Caulifla & Mastered Berzerk Kale, why Buu arc Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku & Majin Vegeta, etc.

[DBZ Macky]

These are bad arguments. The fact that Base Gogeta could causally parry and defend against SSJ1 Broly at all is proof that he was stronger than normal SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Except that argument is worse than the one I made, there is no "proof".
Gogeta isn't the only one who parried Broly's Ki attacks, he deflected like two before transforming, while SSB Goku deflects a whole bunch of them.

I will repeat this again "Gogeta mostly dodged Broly's attacks while SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta traded blows with Broly", but this time, I will also provide visual aid.

Goku and Vegeta hold their own against Broly before distracting him with Freeza and escaping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMu3WCt662o
Time stamp - 1:28

Base Gogeta literally doing less than what Goku and Vegeta could do, and transforming into Super Saiyan to outclass Broly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehvY__pLYY
Time stamp - 1:01

Perhaps it's because I'm the only one who re-watches the movie every couple of weeks like an insane person, but it really seems like I'm in the minority here who doesn't believe Base Gogeta > the Super Saiyan Blues.

I honestly feel that what everyone actually remembers is Gogeta acting overly cocky and it has just been echoed so much around the community that it has created a sort of Mandela effect. There is not a single shred of evidence or implication that Base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta yet everyone parrots it because, well, everyone else does.

And the Vegito argument doesn't work. In the anime, that Merged Zamasu that Vegito fought wasn't the same strength as the one SSB Goku/Vegeta & Trunks did (this was after M.Zamasu got massively stronger from hitting himself with the Lightning of Absolution and getting the purple arm, which cause Goku and Vegeta to decide to fuse at all). And the manga, M.Zamasu himself acknowledged Base Vegito as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, saying to himself that he might actually have a challenge now.

I don't own the Manga in any official capacity, so this Youtube video is the best source I have, and clearly Zamasu calls Vegetto trash rather than "acknowledging him as stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta" or treating him like a challenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYShBO6Jofs

Fusion is officially a AxB multiplier of both partners power leading to the base fusion, hence why Base Kefla > SSJ2 Caulifla & Mastered Berzerk Kale, why Buu arc Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku & Majin Vegeta, etc.

I don't disagree with the base Fusions being above Super Saiyan 2 or 3, even the AxB multiplier can work, but that doesn't mean that Base Fusions should just be stronger than the fusees strongest forms. Otherwise, Ultra Instinct and any other future forms are obsolete and they should've just changed Dragon Ball Super to Dragon Ball Fusions: The Anime.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yes. For all intentions and purposes, Merged Zamasu was up there. In the ToP scale, somewhere below 1st Omen Goku and Supressed Jiren. Ofc Vegito being above him.

I personally don't have Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu under even 2nd Omen Goku.

While his normal Corrupted form I do have under Kefla, GoD Toppo and the rest.

Interesting take.

So how do you think that Supressed Jiren's power being 'the strongest ever felt' mixes into this? I would assume it is in direct comparison to at least Giant Corrupted Merged Zamasu, since Infinite Zamasu was an non-corporeal entity.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes. For all intentions and purposes, Merged Zamasu was up there. In the ToP scale, somewhere below 1st Omen Goku and Supressed Jiren. Ofc Vegito being above him.

I personally don't have Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu under even 2nd Omen Goku.

While his normal Corrupted form I do have under Kefla, GoD Toppo and the rest.

Interesting take.

So how do you think that Supressed Jiren's power being 'the strongest ever felt' mixes into this? I would assume it is in direct comparison to at least Giant Corrupted Merged Zamasu, since Infinite Zamasu was an non-corporeal entity.

If you are referring to Shin's statement, he never said Jiren's aura is the strongest. He just said it's different from anything they've felt before. Which is logical since everyone has different ki (even Zamasu and Black, despite being the same person, had different ki/aura).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm of the mindset that base Gogeta is indeed as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta individually.

He easily evades SS Broly better than Goku and Vegeta did and is deflecting huge amounts of Ki blasts with ease, even chuckling about it and being confident about turning into a Super Saiyan himself as Broly's charging at him.

SSB goku had to plut some effort into deflecting SS Broly's Ki blasts while rooted to a single spot and ended up losing his shirt in the process.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I personally don't have Giant Corrupted Fused Zamasu under even 2nd Omen Goku.

While his normal Corrupted form I do have under Kefla, GoD Toppo and the rest.

Interesting take.

So how do you think that Supressed Jiren's power being 'the strongest ever felt' mixes into this? I would assume it is in direct comparison to at least Giant Corrupted Merged Zamasu, since Infinite Zamasu was an non-corporeal entity.

If you are referring to Shin's statement, he never said Jiren's aura is the strongest. He just said it's different from anything they've felt before. Which is logical since everyone has different ki (even Zamasu and Black, despite being the same person, had different ki/aura).

True, but it is moreso how the story is being told. When Zamasu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb, Jiren pushed it back. There is a direct comparison there. Which is also why I personally have peak Merged Zamasu and Blue Vegito around 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren.

[Dragon Wukong]

If you are referring to Shin's statement, he never said Jiren's aura is the strongest. He just said it's different from anything they've felt before. Which is logical since everyone has different ki (even Zamasu and Black, despite being the same person, had different ki/aura).

True, but it is moreso how the story is being told. When Zamasu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb, Jiren pushed it back. There is a direct comparison there. Which is also why I personally have peak Merged Zamasu and Blue Vegito around 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren.

Personally I feel like Kefla kinda contradicts that, however. Vegeta and Goku in the Future Trunks arc are, in my opinion at least, without a doubt stronger than Kale and Caulifla in the Tournament of Power. Kefla was stated to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, whose power during their fight was said to surpass his first usage of Omen. (If there's any confusion on this, Goku's usage of the Kamehameha can be compared to Piccolo's usage of the Makkankosappo on Raditz. A charging technique used to defeat an opponent who's stronger.)

If Kefla at full power as an SS2 was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen, I think that says that Vegito Blue was as well. In fact, I think the gap between Kale/Caulifla as SS2 (not Kale's Berserk, her SS2) and Goku/Vegeta as SSB should be considered, as that gap is massive. Goku only needed SSG to completely toy with Kale and Caulifla. If Kefla as an SS2 was strong enough to be considered a serious threat to Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, I think Vegito Blue should be compared as a massive gap above that. Certainly above Beerus, but also, possibly around or even above the level of Ultra Instinct or Jiren.

That's just my opinion, anyhow.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If you are referring to Shin's statement, he never said Jiren's aura is the strongest. He just said it's different from anything they've felt before. Which is logical since everyone has different ki (even Zamasu and Black, despite being the same person, had different ki/aura).

True, but it is moreso how the story is being told. When Zamasu was defeated by a Spirit Bomb, Jiren pushed it back. There is a direct comparison there. Which is also why I personally have peak Merged Zamasu and Blue Vegito around 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren.

Personally I feel like Kefla kinda contradicts that, however. Vegeta and Goku in the Future Trunks arc are, in my opinion at least, without a doubt stronger than Kale and Caulifla in the Tournament of Power. Kefla was stated to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, whose power during their fight was said to surpass his first usage of Omen. (If there's any confusion on this, Goku's usage of the Kamehameha can be compared to Piccolo's usage of the Makkankosappo on Raditz. A charging technique used to defeat an opponent who's stronger.)

If Kefla at full power as an SS2 was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen, I think that says that Vegito Blue was as well. In fact, I think the gap between Kale/Caulifla as SS2 (not Kale's Berserk, her SS2) and Goku/Vegeta as SSB should be considered, as that gap is massive. Goku only needed SSG to completely toy with Kale and Caulifla. If Kefla as an SS2 was strong enough to be considered a serious threat to Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, I think Vegito Blue should be compared as a massive gap above that. Certainly above Beerus, but also, possibly around or even above the level of Ultra Instinct or Jiren.

That's just my opinion, anyhow.

Makes sense. But Kefla having enough AP to kill Goku doesn't necessarily make her stronger than him. We all saw how she 'tanked' his strikes, but once he got serious he flinged her around, prompting her to that weird max power state which is imo, above a normal SS2 Kefla. And for all we know, since Kefla is a mix of a saiyan and a more unique saiyan, her forms may not function exactly the same.

Also she pretty much is compared with the Spirit Bomb as a SS, which is a tier of power that Vegito Blue, Peak Merged Zamasu, 1st Omen and Supressed Jiren all have surpassed.