Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:02 am

Black was not even close to hitting his limit. In ep. 63 he explicitly reminded Zamasu that fighting the Saiyans benefits him, since it makes him stronger. If he had reached his "natural limit" (barring the fact that the whole reason there's a debate here is because some people here think Saiyans have no limits and can just surpass Black in 2 minutes), he would have felt it.

https://youtu.be/SjA5-yvJTTg?t=81

In episode 65, upon Fused Zamasu's birth, it is reiterated that Fused Zamasu possesses a body that can "infinitely increase in strength".

So in short Black was not even close to hitting the full potential of that body.

Even though he had grown so much in power that his power "exceeded his comprehension/understanding". He literally couldn't comprehend how strong he became, let that sink in.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:02 am In episode 65, upon Fused Zamasu's birth, it is reiterated that Fused Zamasu possesses a body that can "infinitely increase in strength".
That’s before he put that to test, and we saw that this further increase in power came with expense of his balance. His body increased in size to contain his power, indicating that he was nearing his limit. He couldn’t keep up with Vegetto in that situation anymore.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:02 am In episode 65, upon Fused Zamasu's birth, it is reiterated that Fused Zamasu possesses a body that can "infinitely increase in strength".
That’s before he put that to test, and we saw that this further increase in power came with expense of his balance. His body increased in size to contain his power, indicating that he was nearing his limit. He couldn’t keep up with Vegetto in that situation anymore.
Goku Black doesn't have that problem since his body isn't unstable.

Every single power-up Goku gained since the ending of the FT arc, all the way to MUI, Black can also gain it. He wasn't even beginning to tap into the full potential of that body.

And since Black has always been one step ahead of Goku, he'd get stronger power-ups too compared to Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:28 am

What happens to Merged Zamasu is the same as when a Super Saiyan is using the ascended forms power-up that Trunks and Caulifla used. It’s an indication that they are using more power than the form can sustain. The fight goes more or less on the same pace as SS2 Gohan vs. Giant Cell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:28 am What happens to Merged Zamasu is the same as when a Super Saiyan is using the ascended forms power-up that Trunks and Caulifla used. It’s an indication that they are using more power than the form can sustain. The fight goes more or less on the same pace as SS2 Gohan vs. Giant Cell.
Sorta.

It's a lot less one-sided than that, since Merged Zamasu only lacks in speed; his raw power is still comparable to SSB Vegito. His durability is insane still, tanking a big kick, the FInal Kamehameha AND a powerful punch afterwards before Vegito defused. I always took this scene as the rest of his body "catching up" with his corrupted half, since that was the side that seemed to have the power necessary to fight Vegito on even footing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:38 am

You can't compare Fused Zamasu's condition to anyone else because it was explicitly said that he was falling apart physically, as a physical manifestation of his internal instability. This never happened to any other character in the entire franchise, Zamasu's weakness was unique in the setting.

As I said Black doesn't run into these issues (because he doesn't have an unstable body), so he can just spam Zenkai boosts ad-infinitum. He was going to do that with Goku and Vegeta, before Zamasu got sealed in the Mafuba.

Fused Zamasu couldn't do that due to the unstable balance between his Immortal soul and Half-mortal body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:42 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:02 am Black was not even close to hitting his limit. In ep. 63 he explicitly reminded Zamasu that fighting the Saiyans benefits him, since it makes him stronger. If he had reached his "natural limit" (barring the fact that the whole reason there's a debate here is because some people here think Saiyans have no limits and can just surpass Black in 2 minutes), he would have felt it.

https://youtu.be/SjA5-yvJTTg?t=81

In episode 65, upon Fused Zamasu's birth, it is reiterated that Fused Zamasu possesses a body that can "infinitely increase in strength".

So in short Black was not even close to hitting the full potential of that body.

Even though he had grown so much in power that his power "exceeded his comprehension/understanding". He literally couldn't comprehend how strong he became, let that sink in.
He was at his natural limit. He doesn't grow stronger after getting damaged by Trunks or Vegeta after episode 61.

It takes anger for him to grow stronger in episode 64. Not damage like before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:50 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:42 pm He was at his natural limit. He doesn't grow stronger after getting damaged by Trunks or Vegeta after episode 61.

It takes anger for him to grow stronger in episode 64. Not damage like before.
False.

He creates a scythe by literally impaling the palm of his hand with a sword, which, unsurprisingly, was very painful (hence why Black was grunting in pain during the entire process, and Vegeta had a confused expression because Black was a masochist).

What you say is completely disproven by Black sending Future Zamasu to torture and kill Trunks and co., so that Goku and Vegeta can get stronger, beat up Black, and make Black stronger in turn from the beat down.

The only difference with before is that Black finally realized the power of anger, which was a method he overlooked before due to it being very savage and primitive. This doesn't mean he reached his natural limit at all, it simply means that he included anger into the process (while before that he NEVER got angry).

Black's ability to reach new heights of power via pain carries over to Fused Zamasu, who strikes himself with his own Light attack, further disfiguring himself, to grow significantly stronger (Fused Zamasu, like Black in the previous episode, was also grunting in pain during the entire process).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:50 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:42 pm He was at his natural limit. He doesn't grow stronger after getting damaged by Trunks or Vegeta after episode 61.

It takes anger for him to grow stronger in episode 64. Not damage like before.
False.

He creates a scythe by literally impaling the palm of his hand with a sword, which, unsurprisingly, was very painful (hence why Black was grunting in pain during the entire process, and Vegeta had a confused expression because Black was a masochist).

What you say is completely disproven by Black sending Future Zamasu to torture and kill Trunks and co., so that Goku and Vegeta can get stronger, beat up Black, and make Black stronger in turn from the beat down.

The only difference with before is that Black finally realized the power of anger, which was a method he overlooked before due to it being very savage and primitive. This doesn't mean he reached his natural limit at all, it simply means that he included anger into the process (while before that he NEVER got angry).

Black's ability to reach new heights of power via pain carries over to Fused Zamasu, who strikes himself with his own Light attack, further disfiguring himself, to grow significantly stronger (Fused Zamasu, like Black in the previous episode, was also grunting in pain during the entire process).
Dude. He literally says he's going to use anger to grow stronger. Stabbing himself wasn't how he got stronger in the episode.

We have 2 full fights were Goku Black got damaged a lot and nothing. No power up at all. Before it just took a few punches and he grew stronger.

Fused Zamasu is a different being with different potential.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:39 pm Dude. He literally says he's going to use anger to grow stronger. Stabbing himself wasn't how he got stronger in the episode.
Anger and Pain don't exclude one another.

Everyone is in awe at the massive Dimensional rift that Black created through the SCYTHE, he forged that scythe by painfully stabbing his palm with the sword and painfully extracting a scythe. The narrative is clear.
We have 2 full fights were Goku Black got damaged a lot and nothing
Incorrect, the only fight where he was damaged significantly was against Vegeta. In the fight against Trunks, it looked like he was damaged, but in the end he mocked Trunks, saying that he "might have been bruised", i.e. he's making fun of Trunks and saying that he's genuinely fodder to him.

Trunks was a weakling to him, he had nothing left to gain from Trunks, that's why he sent Future Zamasu to torture and kill him. At that point Trunks was so weak that he wouldn't be able to hurt Black, and thus make him stronger.

As for Vegeta, his plan was to make Vegeta stronger by making him see Zamasu kill Trunks and co. Then Vegeta would beat Black. Which in turn would make Black stronger. As explicitly explained by Black, as the whole reason why he wasn't engaging Goku and Vegeta with his clones. For this strategy to work, it means that Pain could still be used as a catalyst to grow stronger.

A similar strategy was employed in ep. 61, where Black and Zamasu specifically made Goku mad (=stronger) by telling him about how Black killed his family. Which in turn made Black stronger from the beat down he received. Black was essentially going to repeat that strategy, if Zamasu didn't get himself sealed in the Mafuba.
Fused Zamasu is a different being with different potential.
Him being a different entity (as all Fusions are) doesn't negate the fact that he's got Goku Black's cells and body within half of him.

Which is directly acknowledged by Fused Zamasu, who states that he can feel the "two powers merging and dissolving into one" within him. So he acknowledges that he's got the power and potential of Goku Black, increased exponentially of course via the Potara.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:58 pm

Explain to me why Black didn't get stronger by being damaged by Vegeta then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:58 pm Explain to me why Black didn't get stronger by being damaged by Vegeta then.
Simple. Vegeta didn't beat him down as much as Goku did.

During their fight in the Present, Goku hurt Black so much that he kept touching his chest, and even fell to the ground exhausted after the fight was over.

After Goku gets mad from his family's death, he knocks Black unconscious for a very brief period of time.

Meanwhile with Vegeta, while his speech was touching and all, he didn't damage Black nearly as much as Goku did. So much so that he was back on his feet 5 seconds later, and even at the end, when Vegeta catches him off-guard with a Ki blast attack, he effortlessly re-emerges from the rubble.

You would have to reconcile your idea that "Black already reached his limit" with the Canon showing us that Black indeed grew stronger by stabbing his hand with his blade (which, obviously, has to be painful). And then trying to make Goku and Vegeta stronger, so that they can in turn make him stronger.

The fact is that Anger and Pain are not mutually exclusive at all. We are shown that, Yes, Black used anger as the catalyst to grow stronger; but at the same time, he created a scythe by stabbing his hand with the blade, and then painfully taking it out. This act of masochism shocked even Vegeta, leaving him speechless.

And obviously he was planning to make Goku and Vegeta stronger so that they "in turn could make him stronger" (which implies he wanted to get beat down by them, to kickstart some Zenkai boosts). So he was far from finished with his potential, but his plans were cut short by Zamasu getting himself sealed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:15 pm

I'm not sure if Goku Black grew stronger from stabbing himself. It's heavily implied that it's the pain he suffers from other opponents, rather than himself, that causes him to grow stronger, hence why Goku Black is elated by SSJ2 Goku's power when he battles him initially. He claims that he is the strongest opponent he's ever encountered and thus, will rise to a much greater level which is what we see when he evidently goes from slightly above SSJ2 Goku to near SSJB level. It's possible, but I don't see anything suggesting it. Otherwise, Goku Black could have received immediate power boosts on his own.

If the argument that Goku Black didn't receive a power boost from Vegeta because he didn't seem to be in pain, then I think that should also apply to when he stabs himself. He's clearly in nowhere near as much pain as he was when he received a beating from SSJB Rageku or SSJ Rage Trunks. But aside from that, I believe SSJR Goku Black powered up when SSJ2 Trunks managed to land a kick on him during their first encounter, so perhaps sustaining notable damage from a very powerful opponent is enough. All the more reason to believe SSJ2 Trunks is Blue level as well.

Likewise, Goku Black admits that there's a massive power gap between both him and Vegeta, so naturally, Vegeta's power just as it was for Goku during his first battle with Black, should have led to a power boost. I'm not against the idea that Goku Black shattering his limits through his rage allowed his own natural limits to rise even greater. But I don't really see the implication that Goku Black powered up through pain since the emphasis is placed on his anger and he expresses that rage as he pierces his hand with his blade.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:07 pm

I'm not convinced.

In episode 56 Black confirms he got stronger by battling SSB Vegeta but he barely damaged him. Black doesn't even have scratches on him.

In episode 64, Vegeta leaves him like this.

Image

BTW does Goku Black actually say SS2 Goku was the strongest he faced so far? I have to rewatch episode 50. I don't remember that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:30 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:07 pm I'm not convinced.

In episode 56 Black confirms he got stronger by battling SSB Vegeta but he barely damaged him. Black doesn't even have scratches on him.

In episode 64, Vegeta leaves him like this.

Image

BTW does Goku Black actually say SS2 Goku was the strongest he faced so far? I have to rewatch episode 50. I don't remember that.
That's a strong comparison. You are correct that while SSJB Vegeta was pummeling Goku Black, he recovered without any significant wounds and still powered up.

My argument was moreso to illustrate how the power of his opponent relative to Goku Black's own strength is what enables Goku Black to improve. That's meaningless if Goku Black could somehow receive those power boosts by inflicting pain on himself. That's not implied anywhere.

And yes, Goku Black states that he's never seen anyone so powerful i.e SSJ2 Goku at the time. This makes sense since SSJ2 Trunks wasn't capable of pushing Goku Black to a level that SSJ2 Goku could. SSJ2 Trunks only pushed Goku Black slightly above SSJ2 Goku (Ep. 50) whereas SSJ2 Goku literally pushed Goku Black near Blue level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:20 am

It also isn't implied anywhere that Black reached some kind of limit, that's a fanfic nerf this forum is giving him.

In fact, the Story completely contradicts this. If Black somehow reached the limit of how much he can take to grow stronger, he wouldn't be trying to make Goku and Vegeta stronger.

We also see that Fused Zamasu becomes stronger not by the wound Goku gave him, but by the wound he gives to himself by striking himself with his own attack. The narrative is blatant in what it's trying to establish.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:53 am

Based on how well Goku performed with SSB-UI against two-eyed Granola, I could've sworned a healed, full power UI Goku could beat Granola and of course Vegeta too, but he chose to let Vegeta eat the senzu, even though Geets already had his fun(a lot of it) and Goku not so much, implying UE Vegeta> UI Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:53 am Based on how well Goku performed with SSB-UI against two-eyed Granola, I could've sworned a healed, full power UI Goku could beat Granola and of course Vegeta too, but he chose to let Vegeta eat the senzu, even though Geets already had his fun(a lot of it) and Goku not so much, implying UE Vegeta> UI Goku.
That's only because Goku took one prior so it would only be fair if Vegeta had one as well.

SSJB-UI Goku did fairly well against Granola, but he was running out of stamina at that point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:09 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:20 am It also isn't implied anywhere that Black reached some kind of limit, that's a fanfic nerf this forum is giving him.

In fact, the Story completely contradicts this. If Black somehow reached the limit of how much he can take to grow stronger, he wouldn't be trying to make Goku and Vegeta stronger.

We also see that Fused Zamasu becomes stronger not by the wound Goku gave him, but by the wound he gives to himself by striking himself with his own attack. The narrative is blatant in what it's trying to establish.
Not only this is an inappropriate way to have a conversation, but you also are ignoring that Goku Black’s half from Fused Zamasu couldn’t sustain the damage Goku inflicted on him. And it only kept getting stronger because the other Zamasu half was carrying on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:09 pm Not only this is an inappropriate way to have a conversation
I literally don't know how someone can be so sensitive.

I didn't even use emojis this time :roll:

Anyway, it wasn't just the Kamehameha that hit F. Zamasu, it was also his own attack (Holy Wrath) being pushed back against him and exploding on top of him. There is also no indication whatsoever that Zamasu got stronger because of his Immortal half; in fact, the opposite is shown. When Zamasu beseeches for more power, it is his "mortal" half that mutates.

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