Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

It's come to my attention thanks to someone on Twitter that the line by Gotenks actually refers to SS3, not SS4, as well as SSB, not SSG. The line in Portuguese is falsified. Which makes more sense because why would Gotenks talk about SS4 in the first place?

The actual line is this:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? It's supposed to be even more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3!''

Which makes me question why would someone change that line. Totally unnecessary. The other one also compares SS4 to a God of Destruction, which also fuels the theory that this form doesn’t fall behind SSBlue.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The image is in portuguese. But translated, Gotenks basically says:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God? They say it's stronger even than a Super Saiyan 4!''

Spoiler:

And in DLC, Vegeta turns into SSJ4 even before getting SSB (and probably even before getting SSG at that point), which is why he thinks SSJ4 is the power of a god. Goku, who has already experienced the power of SSG says only that it's a incredible power

It's come to my attention thanks to someone on Twitter that the line by Gotenks actually refers to SS3, not SS4, as well as SSB, not SSG. The line in Portuguese is falsified. Which makes more sense because why would Gotenks talk about SS4 in the first place?

The actual line is this:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? It's supposed to be even more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3!''

Spoiler:

So the fact remains that Xenoverse does not outright explicitly state anything about SS4's power being inferior to SSG/B.

Where he says this?

It's either in one of the crossover stories or in one of his battle dialogues...? Can't remember which but he def says it.

Also I went back to check. It's in his battle dialogue when he fights against SS4 Goku.

Whis: "That form... It's wonderful! I think you'd make a perfect God of Destruction."
Goku: "Stop it. It's not for me."

which makes perfect sense, because why would he even bring up ssj4 in the first place.

[Questrider]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

Having power is one thing. I get that he was born strong. But knowing how to fight so damn well? And trained by his scrub Dad?
I just don't buy it.

And Jiren? Jiren is just as bad. Boohoo lost a few people, holds this massive grudge. And btw, Jiren could have won that entire tournament had he not been sitting on his ass nearly the entire time.

[HeroR]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

Having power is one thing. I get that he was born strong. But knowing how to fight so damn well? And trained by his scrub Dad?
I just don't buy it.

And Jiren? Jiren is just as bad. Boohoo lost a few people, holds this massive grudge. And btw, Jiren could have won that entire tournament had he not been sitting on his ass nearly the entire time.

We have seen Hakai overcome several times, so Beerus can’t just kill anyone with it.

And Jiren lost more than a few people.

[HeroR]

All 3 of them are pretty much equal in their respective forms anyways.

Base/SS Goku and Vegeta are even with Final Form Freeza, and SSB is equal to True Golden Freeza.

Going off of Resurrection ‘F’, both movie and retelling, true form Freeza was weaker than base for Goku even with his Golden form being stronger.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All 3 of them are pretty much equal in their respective forms anyways.

Base/SS Goku and Vegeta are even with Final Form Freeza, and SSB is equal to True Golden Freeza.

Going off of Resurrection ‘F’, both movie and retelling, true form Freeza was weaker than base for Goku even with his Golden form being stronger.

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.

[wolflonnie]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

Having power is one thing. I get that he was born strong. But knowing how to fight so damn well? And trained by his scrub Dad?
I just don't buy it.

And Jiren? Jiren is just as bad. Boohoo lost a few people, holds this massive grudge. And btw, Jiren could have won that entire tournament had he not been sitting on his ass nearly the entire time.

Massive grudge? Jiren? Huh?
There is a very big difference between shutting down emotionally and holding a grudge.
In any case, it has been shown that the Hakai move, at least in the anime, can be overcome by being just a tad bit stronger than the GoD in question (Vegeta vs Toppo).
Now the manga's Hakai seems deadlier (Goku vs Zamasu) but we don't know for sure.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

Having power is one thing. I get that he was born strong. But knowing how to fight so damn well? And trained by his scrub Dad?
I just don't buy it.

And Jiren? Jiren is just as bad. Boohoo lost a few people, holds this massive grudge. And btw, Jiren could have won that entire tournament had he not been sitting on his ass nearly the entire time.

Massive grudge? Jiren? Huh?
There is a very big difference between shutting down emotionally and holding a grudge.
In any case, it has been shown that the Hakai move, at least in the anime, can be overcome by being just a tad bit stronger than the GoD in question (Vegeta vs Toppo).
Now the manga's Hakai seems deadlier (Goku vs Zamasu) but we don't know for sure.

I always thought that there is a distinct difference between the Hakai move used by Beerus and Manga Goku and the spheres of Destruction that Sidra and Toppo have been able to create.

The one is the pure thing. Unblockable. A small scale variant to Zeno's erasure (it can be ultimate erasure too) technique. The other seems more like the manifestation of that move. The energy of Destruction itself.

It may not make sense, but for me it does. Kinda. The 2 are different. Toppo simply is on a level (in the anime at least) that does not allow him to use the actual Hakai. Or his orders being not to kill, didn't allow for erasure techniques to be used.

[SupremeKai25]

Beerus' Hakai technique does not work on immortal beings. Also, the Hakai that Goku used in the manga was quite weak. During the entire process, Fused Zamasu was able to assess the situation, come up with a plan to save himself, open a portal, grab Mai, pull her through the portal, and finally use her as meatshield. And while all of this was going on, only half of his body was disintegrated. It's such a clunky and ineffective move. Of course that was down to Goku being an amateur… But still, that moment didn't exactly do justice to the Hakai, so to speak.

[ekrolo2]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goku be if Old Kaioshin got a chance to give it to him? On par with SSBKK Goku from 123? Rivaling his Omen self in its various appearances?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goku be if Old Kaioshin got a chance to give it to him? On par with SSBKK Goku from 123? Rivaling his Omen self in its various appearances?

Ultimate is all about bringing out the maximum power you have and some more.

Maybe at the power level of Ultra Instinct Omen, but not quite the reflexes and speed.

[wolflonnie]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goku be if Old Kaioshin got a chance to give it to him? On par with SSBKK Goku from 123? Rivaling his Omen self in its various appearances?

Something tells me he wouldn't be neither SSBKK, neither UI levels. Perhaps a bit stronger than SSB but that's it.
I think UI, as a technique, influences the strenght as well, bringing a potential beyond the maximum one can have.
Same as KK, which forcibly boosts one's strenght.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goku be if Old Kaioshin got a chance to give it to him? On par with SSBKK Goku from 123? Rivaling his Omen self in its various appearances?

He would be able to use Ultra Instinct without drawbacks.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So, I had this question.

Many seem to call the God's Crimson Radiance state (my thing), Chou Super Saiyan or whatever. I am reffering to the Post-SSJG SSJ Goku of course, which imo is a primitive stage of Super Saiyan Blue.

Now, is this the same form with the SSJ produced by the failed God Ritual? If not, then what should we name that? It is clearly just an empowered SSJ but when SSJ4 was practically going through the same power-up it became known as a Ultra Full Power SSJ4. Should this be a UFP SSJ? Would it be possible for the same form to have been used against Z Broly by Goku? I mean Piccolo is a Namekian, but wasn't just pure energy what was being given to Goku?

And of course, it is out of question that this form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan 2 Quake of Fury (my naming for Vegeta's powerups which is clearly distinctive from SSJ2 Rage) and even Super Vegito.

But would it be stronger than God's Crimson Radiance SSJ Goku? Or even than his Post-SSJG Base which was tapping into that power too?

Give me your thoughts.

[HeroR]

All 3 of them are pretty much equal in their respective forms anyways.

Base/SS Goku and Vegeta are even with Final Form Freeza, and SSB is equal to True Golden Freeza.

Going off of Resurrection ‘F’, both movie and retelling, true form Freeza was weaker than base for Goku even with his Golden form being stronger.

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.

Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Going off of Resurrection ‘F’, both movie and retelling, true form Freeza was weaker than base for Goku even with his Golden form being stronger.

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.

Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.

Could be that the multipliers for both forms changed as both of them got stronger.

[Helios518]

Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. 1) SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect so this is only an inconsistent feat. ,If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make 2) SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.

1) God-level characters choosing to not threaten the universe doesn't mean they can't do at all. It's been common knowledge that DB character can maintain their attack potency while keeping their destruction power low ever since Piccolo Daimao blew up the city (or when Roshi blew up the moon). Though, if you still want to be the logic you're using, then most DB character's aren't more than mountain level because their attacks rarely destroy or threaten to destroy more than that.

2) In that case, Freeza/Boo blowing up planets shouldn't matter in any way for these comparisons because they're just to make them look cool.

[ZombieVito]

Going off of Resurrection ‘F’, both movie and retelling, true form Freeza was weaker than base for Goku even with his Golden form being stronger.

I'm talking about now. They're all within the same general range such that they pretty much stalemate one another.

Hos base would be weaker if Golden Freeza is only even to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as of now.

My theory is that Freeza in order to eliminate the strain of his Golden form he reduced the multiplier.

Think of it like in RoF he used SSG2 and in the ToP he used SS.

That's the only way I can explained this.

[Miracles]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

I never understood some of the fandom's logic behind the bold:

-Broly fought a stronger Goku and Vegeta than what Jiren faced.
-Goku and Vegeta RAN away from Broly and looked for another way to deal with him.
-They didn't run from Jiren but tried to still beat him head up with their OWN power.
-Jiren was weaker to a SINGLE character in UI Goku.
- Broly was at the level of a FULL POWER Blue Fuson in Gogeta.

It's quite evident that Broly is the stronger between the two.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Goku>Frieza>Vegeta. That's how I see it based on everything. The difference is minor but it's there.

Beerus>Jiren>Broly>Goku.

Goku was never actually "stronger" than Jiren. He beat him but that's not the same thing. And Frieza had to help him, among others.

Why Beerus on top? Simple. He could do away with any of these characters with but a single move. He is a GOD of Destruction. Capable of blowing shit up with like a sneeze.

Now, if Goku is in UI AND learns to master it? (Which he hasn't done yet since he can't access the form at will) This then becomes a completely different discussion.

Jiren over Broly because Jiren was damn near untouchable. Broly at least got knocked around quite a bit. Tbh, I don't really like either character. Both have all this power for apparently no good reason. Broly especially.

I never understood some of the fandom's logic behind the bold:

-Broly fought a stronger Goku and Vegeta than what Jiren faced.
-Goku and Vegeta RAN away from Broly and looked for another way to deal with him.
-They didn't run from Jiren but tried to still beat him head up with their OWN power.
-Jiren was weaker to a SINGLE character in UI Goku.
- Broly was at the level of a FULL POWER Blue Fuson in Gogeta.

It's quite evident that Broly is the stronger between the two.

Not sure if Gogeta was going all out... Also nothing indicates massive powerups from the end of the ToP to the Broly movie. Eps 125-131 happened in mere minutes and what happened in these eps is pretty much what we call post-ToP.

Only Freeza has been mentioned to have POSSIBLY trained by the time of the movie. Also, it really didn't matter if Goku and Vegeta could run away from Jiren. They couldn't really. Nowhere to go. So they didn't delay the inevitable and fought.

Also they had the option of fusion. And by now Vegito Blue should be just a percentage weaker than Gogeta Blue. But hey, they didn't use it. They didn't feel confident. So yeah.

Jiren was presented to be the multiverse's top dog. Why immediately replace him? 0 narrative advantage. Presenting this new enemy, who the characters roughly approached in power, a power beyond the GoDs, only to get us to the next level with someone supposedly "even" stronger.

Still not buying that Broly is stronger. Not yet at least. His first appearance isn't his final one.