Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:58 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:44 am
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:52 pm *snip*
I'll skip all this translation talk since you're clearly missing the point, which is that unless you can prove that the localization teams for those games are "unreliable translators", I'll take their word over some dude on a forum insisting I give him Japanese pics that he can't translate himself (especially if their translation corroborates other materials, which it does).

I'll also skip the Ultimate + SS stuff you brought up. I answered all those questions just a page ago, and you yourself agreed earlier that it was plausibly a thing back when Ultimate was portrayed as a permanent state. I'm ambivalent as to how this would work in Super Hero; that's up to you to decide, though I'm personally unconvinced that Beast Gohan is a stacked transformation for a variety of reasons.

That leaves us with "I'll concede". Cool. Setting the record straight Re: SSGSS is why I replied to you in the first place. If you're confused about Black's form, he said it himself in the manga — if a mortal Saiyan's hair turns blue when they go past SSG, a god's hair will turn pink if they do the same thing. That might work differently in the anime, but I don't care what the anime does. One explanation is good enough for me.

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Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:09 pm Aren’t Super Saiyan forms past Super Saiyan 1 just Super Saiyan stacked on the previous Super Saiyan level?
Pretty much. Goku actually describes Super Saiyan 2 that way in the Boo arc, and the Super manga (along with V Jump guides) is certainly no stranger to portraying God and Blue as standard parts of the SS line.
My point earlier was that SSGod was said to be a transformation separate from SS despite being part of the SS line, Gohans PU was said to be a transformation separate from SS too, but at the same time he went through SS and SS2 to get back to to it.

So this means that just like SSG it is separate from SS forms, but connected to SS forms. Goku was also able to use SSG's full power whilst using his SS form when SSG itself expired in the BoG and all of this combined with the fact of what happened vs Moro with the energy drain and how in SH Gohan went down into SS from PU when his energy got too low shows me that despite being connected to the SS lines, PU is a separate transformation just like SSGod so it SHOULD be able to be stacked with SS even though its connected to it.

I think Gohan just lacked the training/rage to stack SS onto PU legitimately, and later on from ToP Saga onward he simply didn't even want to do that. We see in SH PU is treated as a transformation that although separate comes after the SS forms. We also see that through Rage he awakens the transformation Beast while using PU, which is while I think it's very possible that Beast may in fact be legitimately Gohan Potential Unleashed gone Super Saiyan.

Get what I am saying? It's theory, but it's backed up by direct comparisons given to use with SSG in the series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:27 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:44 amI'll skip all this translation talk since you're clearly missing the point, which is that unless you can prove that the localization teams for those games are "unreliable translators", I'll take their word over some dude on a forum insisting I give him Japanese pics that he can't translate himself (especially if their translation corroborates other materials, which it does).
Why would I prove that? I never said they are "unreliable translators". I'm saying we should do our research before anything else.

One more thing: Xenoverse states that the movies take place in another history, which completely corroborates with what Toriyama said. I'm bringing this up because I'm still finding people saying the movies "didn't happen", "are what-if events" and similar nonsense. You've shown yourself to be one that doesn't have a problem considering what games and promo things state, so you aren't one of those people who'd say something like that about the movies, are you? We have to be consistent persons, not "selectively prying each piece of evidence to fit our agenda", right? Just something to think about.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:44 amI'll also skip the Ultimate + SS stuff you brought up. I answered all those questions just a page ago, and you yourself agreed earlier that it was plausibly a thing back when Ultimate was portrayed as a permanent state
Correct, but Movie 14 does not portray Ultimate as a permanent state. Gohan powers up into it just before fighting Beerus. And none of what you said a page ago answers my questions in this page. Also, there seems to have some contradiction going on. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

First you say Gohan stacks Ultimate on top of Super Saiyan in Movie 14:
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 amGohan stacks Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate in Battle of Gods,
Then you say he stacks those forms for the ritual but you make up an excuse as to why Gohan doesn't do it outside of the ritual:
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:21 pmMy position has always been that Gohan can technically "stack" Super Saiyan, but that there's never been a practical reason for him to do so outside of the ritual since it's just extra strain and doesn't really boost his strength.
And finally, you say it's silly that Gohan used a stronger form for the ritual but didn't go all out against Beerus:
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 pm2. The notion that Gohan wasn't using his full power against Beerus and incidentally used a stronger form for Goku's Super Saiyan God ritual is absolutely silly. There's no way they weren't going all-out when the whole planet was at stake.
Did Gohan stack or not Ultimate on top of Super Saiyan during the ritual? If so, why didn't he use it to go all out against Beerus? Wouldn't "Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan" be his full power in this scenario?
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 pmI'm ambivalent as to how this would work in Super Hero; that's up to you to decide,
Well, I think Movie 2 is just further evidence that Ultimate can't be stacked with Super Saiyan. Gohan, once again, had all the opportunities to do that, but he, once again, cycles through these forms instead. First Super Saiyan, then Ultimate. Why? Why wouldn't he just combine these forms already? What's preventing him from doing that?
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:09 pmIf you're confused about Black's form, he said it himself in the manga — if a mortal Saiyan's hair turns blue when they go past SSG, a god's hair will turn pink if they do the same thing.
Which establishes Super Saiyan Rosé as his "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". But what does it mean for Goku Black to go past Super Saiyan God? Does he even have that form to begin with? In theory he shouldn't because he's already a god, having Super Saiyan God would be redundant.

So again, my question is: if Goku Black doesn't have Super Saiyan God, what is he stacking on top of Super Saiyan to make Super Saiyan Rosé? If Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of two transformations on top of each other, then so should be Super Saiyan Rosé.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:23 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:58 pm Gohan went down into SS from PU when his energy got too low
Minor correction: Gohan drops from Ultimate to base after losing energy, then goes Super Saiyan, then back to Ultimate after eating a senzu.

I get what you're saying, but I remain unconvinced that Beast is any kind of combination form. The entire point of Gohan's progression as a fighter is that he's moving away from Super Saiyan (it's reiterated multiple times in Super), and unlike literally every SS form, there's no "Super Saiyan" moniker in Beast's name. I think you'd have to make some big assumptions to conclude that Beast Gohan has anything to do with Super Saiyan here, although I guess it's not necessarily impossible.

What I think is more likely, and supported by the narrative, is that it's just the full manifestation of Gohan's rage awakenings he's had since he was a toddler; hence the name "Beast Gohan". If Goku and Vegeta can have completely unique non-SS transformations in the form of Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego, I don't see why Gohan can't. Those looking for more detailed, elaborate explanations will probably wind up feeling disappointed.

___________
Grimlock wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:27 pm Why would I prove that? I never said they are "unreliable translators".
Good god, dude. You literally said "I'm gonna need Japanese images, since the English version of the games are known to have some questionable translations" without a shred of evidence or proof that those specific games have bad translations or that their own localization teams are unreliable or questionable.

Let's get one thing straight: I don't owe you any of that. If there's nothing to indicate that Fusions has unskilled translation work (and again, it does corroborate other modern materials), then an image in English is perfectly acceptable. Your refusal to acknowledge it is your problem, not mine. In terms of authority, their translations > you.

Whatever you're rambling about Xenoverse and the movies is completely irrelevant to this discussion, so I'll skip that too. I never said I had a problem with old Z movies being in some alternate dimension or whatever, but it's not what we're talking about.
Grimlock wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:27 pm And none of what you said a page ago answers my questions in this page.
Selective hearing. Not only did I specifically answer those questions, but the questions you're asking now were also addressed even with specific sources. To be clear, that's fine. You can think what you want; I probably would have taken time out of my day to elaborate again if I thought you were being sincere, but I don't, and neither do other posters ITT.

Nothing I said was contradictory if you've been paying attention. There's no point in going around in circles for several pages about BoG when most of us agree that Ultimate is currently treated as a transformation above Super Saiyan anyway. I'll skip it, thanks.
Grimlock wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:27 pm if Goku Black doesn't have Super Saiyan God
You're the one jumping to that conclusion, not me. Black instantly recognized Super Saiyan God as soon as Vegeta used the form and even mentioned it was the stage down from Blue. Again, dunno what to tell you.

Again, though, ciao. I'm thoroughly uninterested in continuing this conversation with you.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:06 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:23 pm I get what you're saying, but I remain unconvinced that Beast is any kind of combination form. The entire point of Gohan's progression as a fighter is that he's moving away from Super Saiyan (it's reiterated multiple times in Super), and unlike literally every SS form, there's no "Super Saiyan" moniker in Beast's name. I think you'd have to make some big assumptions to conclude that Beast Gohan has anything to do with Super Saiyan here, although I guess it's not necessarily impossible.

What I think is more likely, and supported by the narrative, is that it's just the full manifestation of Gohan's rage awakenings he's had since he was a toddler; hence the name "Beast Gohan". If Goku and Vegeta can have completely unique non-SS transformations in the form of Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego, I don't see why Gohan can't. Those looking for more detailed, elaborate explanations will probably wind up feeling disappointed.
I think it’s not necessarily related to Super Saiyan, but rather about Gohan’s hybrid condition. There is a dialogue between Vegeta and Nappa that suggests the combination of Saiyan and Earthling blood create a much stronger specimen, which Vegeta posits as the reason Gohan’s battle power is so greater than Goku’s.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:06 pm I think it’s not necessarily related to Super Saiyan, but rather about Gohan’s hybrid condition. There is a dialogue between Vegeta and Nappa that suggests the combination of Saiyan and Earthling blood create a much stronger specimen, which Vegeta poses as the reason Gohan’s battle power is so greater than Goku’s.
Good point. I'd be a lot more inclined to lean towards that idea, personally, especially since it ties into those myriad awakenings throughout the original manga.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm

BWri wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:45 pm Gohan: "I choose to keep evolving as a human
that has been confirmed as a mistranslation.

it's "I choose to keep evolving as my own person"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:21 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:23 pmGood god, dude. You literally said "I'm gonna need Japanese images, since the English version of the games are known to have some questionable translations" without a shred of evidence or proof that those specific games have bad translations or that their own localization teams are unreliable or questionable.
1 - Keyword: "some". You keep overblowing my statement (see quotes below) and making it seem like I'm saying localization teams are 100%, or almost that, unreliable, less credible, bad translators... It won't work. Again, keyword: "some".
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:08 pmEnglish translations from official sources aren't automatically always instantly less credible than translations from unofficial ones.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:44 amwhich is that unless you can prove that the localization teams for those games are "unreliable translators"
Maybe Dragon Ball Fusions is that one lucky game that was perfectly localized into English? No weird adaptations, no stuff made up, perfectly accurate... I don't know. What I do know is that even if that's the case, it still isn't a reason for us to not check anything before stating it's true.

2 - Speaking of "unreliable", the word "questionable" is not a synonym for it. And neither is it for "bad". So you can try to paint me as if I'm somehow being "against" English translators all you want, it won't help your case. Now, why are they questionable? Because things like these ones happen. And before you use my "English usual nonsense", in there I'm talking about English stuff in general, not just the games. That mainly includes the English dub, which I hope you don't try to defend it as marvelously as you're defending the games localization.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:23 pmSelective hearing. Not only did I specifically answer those questions, but the questions you're asking now were also addressed even with specific sources.
You can keep saying you did, you didn't. The only one that comes close to an answer is the "strain" thing. There's no evidence Gohan doesn't stack Ultimate on top of Super Saiyan because of "strain". In fact, there's no reason even to think that combining those forms would cause any problem to Gohan. Both of them don't have drawbacks. So that unfortunately doesn't answer one of my questions.

Oh, and the guidebook thing that you used as source presents an information that either was outdated by the time it was released or would be become outdated. Seeing the dates, Daizenshuu 3 was released in September 1995. After the manga ended and the anime was covering Goku and Vegeta on Kaioshin planet. However, Kanzenshuu's description says that it only covers "the entire original Dragon Ball TV series (episodes 1–153) the first section of the Dragon Ball Z TV series, everything up to the end of the Namek arc (episodes 1–74)", even though it has entries for Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3 and Ultimate, stuff from the later sagas. So either the guidebook is talking about a Super Saiyan before Goku and Gohan's training, or they knew the events that transpired after Freeza saga and made an erroneous statement about Super Saiyan nonetheless.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:05 pm

Anyway...
ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm that has been confirmed as a mistranslation.

it's "I choose to keep evolving as my own person"
Sort of. The exact term Gohan uses here is "ningen" (meaning human) but since ningen contextually refers to individual people rather than Earthlings specifically, especially given its prior use in Dragon Ball and Gohan's personalized use of "hitori no ningen", the suggested translation "my own person" is a better way to convey what he's saying. Viz didn't technically screw it up, but they translated his statement so literally that it could mislead Western readers who might look at the word "human" and think it's referring to his Earthling heritage or something. It's not quite a mistranslation, but doesn't quite get the point across either.

And that's just one example illustrating why Japanese translation can be phrased a multitude of ways. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:30 pm

Gohan's red eyes reminded me of the colours used for SS in a few covers of the manga, before the anime made it a form closer to what Hitler envisioned as a perfect human being.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:36 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm
BWri wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:45 pm Gohan: "I choose to keep evolving as a human
that has been confirmed as a mistranslation.

it's "I choose to keep evolving as my own person"
In my mind, it's all the same. he's choosing to forego any route which relies on his saiyan genes to instead focus on this inner power of his that is unique to him. More and more it's looking like this power is something we've yet to see in Dragon Ball, something deeper than it merely being Gohan's latent potential, but that's something to ponder another day.

He just wants to see what path this unique power of his will take him down and he seems dedicated to that in the various media ... until he stops training for the umpteenth time.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:03 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:05 pm Anyway...
ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm that has been confirmed as a mistranslation.

it's "I choose to keep evolving as my own person"
Sort of.
As far as I know, "1人の人間" is a rather common form to mean "own person"\individual in regular Japanese.
Like, it's the base way to translate those character chained together, not an exception.

So, yeah, given context and all it makes no sense to over-analyze it. It's just Gohan saying he's going to improve as individual, not specifically as "mortal" or "earthling".
Given the rather basic form used, translating it as anything else I would count as mistranslation because it adds a meaning completely absent in the original when there is an alternative translation that otherwise works better,

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:43 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:03 am
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:05 pm Anyway...
ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:16 pm that has been confirmed as a mistranslation.

it's "I choose to keep evolving as my own person"
Sort of.
As far as I know, "1人の人間" is a rather common form to mean "own person"\individual in regular Japanese.
Like, it's the base way to translate those character chained together, not an exception.

So, yeah, given context and all it makes no sense to over-analyze it. It's just Gohan saying he's going to improve as individual, not specifically as "mortal" or "earthling".
Given the rather basic form used, translating it as anything else I would count as mistranslation because it adds a meaning completely absent in the original when there is an alternative translation that otherwise works better,
When you consider he told Goku "https://i.imgur.com/e9DlU6c.jpg" it further makes sense that he wants to evolve as an individual finding his own unique ultimate form that no one has ever seen before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:16 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:03 am As far as I know, "1人の人間" is a rather common form to mean "own person"\individual in regular Japanese.
Translated literally, that just means "one human/one person". And it has been used in sentences like "from one human being to another" or "one person can make a difference", for example, so "my own person" isn't an immediate linguistic conclusion without some context clues. "My own person" is a better translation here only because Gohan is specifically contrasting "1 human/person" with his Saiyan heritage. Japanese in general can be very context-dependent.

Viz straightforwardly translated it to mean "a (as in singular) human", but his statement carries the same meaning as long as the reader understands that he's not referring to his Earthling blood there. It's more misleading than an outright mistranslation, I think, and I'd only consider it misleading because of Western expectations surrounding the word "human".
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:43 pm

Is there any implication or statement that Goten and Trunks stopped training between Z and Super? It seemed to be implied in Yo Son and Friends since in base they fight on par with Abo and Cado who are around 530,000, but it seems wishy-washy since it isn't explicitly stated. Is there anything more definitive in Super that literally says they ceased training?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:14 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:43 pm Is there any implication or statement that Goten and Trunks stopped training between Z and Super? It seemed to be implied in Yo Son and Friends since in base they fight on par with Abo and Cado who are around 530,000, but it seems wishy-washy since it isn't explicitly stated. Is there anything more definitive in Super that literally says they ceased training?
We don’t ever see Goten and Trunks training after they defeated Boo or anything that implies that, so it’s generally assumed they quit. And a recent interview with Toyotaro suggests Abo and Cado were weaker than Freeza in Namek, so most likely their fusion is what made them a rival for him. Goku defeating them using Super Saiyan reinforces the idea.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:14 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:43 pm Is there any implication or statement that Goten and Trunks stopped training between Z and Super? It seemed to be implied in Yo Son and Friends since in base they fight on par with Abo and Cado who are around 530,000, but it seems wishy-washy since it isn't explicitly stated. Is there anything more definitive in Super that literally says they ceased training?
We don’t ever see Goten and Trunks training after they defeated Boo or anything that implies that, so it’s generally assumed they quit. And a recent interview with Toyotaro suggests Abo and Cado were weaker than Freeza in Namek, so most likely their fusion is what made them a rival for him. Goku defeating them using Super Saiyan reinforces the idea.
I find Goten and Trunks not training to be the most likely outcome but the absence of an actual statement makes it kind of weird when it comes to making strength rankings. I always just assumed that the statement in the special was in regards to 1st form Frieza since that's the image that appears when Tarble makes the statement in the manga. If nothing else, I'd guess simply taking Yo Son and Friends as the implication for Base Goten and Trunks atrophying to only a bit higher than 530,000 wouldn't be logically unsound.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:26 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:14 pm [quote=supersaiyangodgogeta post_id=<a href="tel:1752273">1752273</a> time=<a href="tel:1663537385">1663537385</a> user_id=116135]
Is there any implication or statement that Goten and Trunks stopped training between Z and Super? It seemed to be implied in Yo Son and Friends since in base they fight on par with Abo and Cado who are around 530,000, but it seems wishy-washy since it isn't explicitly stated. Is there anything more definitive in Super that literally says they ceased training?
We don’t ever see Goten and Trunks training after they defeated Boo or anything that implies that, so it’s generally assumed they quit. And a recent interview with Toyotaro suggests Abo and Cado were weaker than Freeza in Namek, so most likely their fusion is what made them a rival for him. Goku defeating them using Super Saiyan reinforces the idea.
[/quote]

It’s not a Toyotaro thing. In the special itself it’s said they used to be weaker than that.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:43 pm Is there any implication or statement that Goten and Trunks stopped training between Z and Super? It seemed to be implied in Yo Son and Friends since in base they fight on par with Abo and Cado who are around 530,000, but it seems wishy-washy since it isn't explicitly stated. Is there anything more definitive in Super that literally says they ceased training?
They always seem pretty weaker to fight and I think we see them training together sometimes. I remember Trunks training with Pilaf and saying he needs to help his future self.

The kids are flat out said to be slacked off in YSG though, and the way they’ve been left in the dust makes me think they haven’t been allowed to train. Chi-Chi wants Goten to study now so Trunks has no one to train with.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:09 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:26 am It’s not a Toyotaro thing. In the special itself it’s said they used to be weaker than that.
It’s quite a bit different.

In the tv anime special, Vegeta said they used to rival Ginyu Force, but Tarble let him know they had become as powerful as Freeza (without giving further exposition on the details, if unfused or not).

In the interview, Toyotaro says (Pre-wish) Gas and Granola were stronger than Ginyu Force. Uchida says that they didn’t seem to be above Namek Freeza level, so Toyotaro says that they’re around Abo/Cado level (unfused).

In the first half, Toyotaro doesn’t present anything new, but in the second half he implies Abo and Cado unfused are weaker than Freeza, erasing any doubts about what Tarble stated in the special (they had become as powerful as Freeza when fused).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:16 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:09 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:26 am It’s not a Toyotaro thing. In the special itself it’s said they used to be weaker than that.
It’s quite a bit different.

In the tv anime special, Vegeta said they used to rival Ginyu Force, but Tarble let him know they had become as powerful as Freeza (without giving further exposition on the details, if unfused or not).

In the interview, Toyotaro says (Pre-wish) Gas and Granola were stronger than Ginyu Force. Uchida says that they didn’t seem to be above Namek Freeza level, so Toyotaro says that they’re around Abo/Cado level (unfused).

In the first half, Toyotaro doesn’t present anything new, but in the second half he implies Abo and Cado unfused are weaker than Freeza, erasing any doubts about what Tarble stated in the special (they had become as powerful as Freeza when fused).
Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:52 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:16 pm Abo and Cado are first form Frieza level. Aka is stated to surpass SSJ Gotenks according to Chozenshuu 4, so Aka=Final Form Frieza cannot be true. The Frieza level statement is specifically about Abo and Cado, but they aren't final form level as stated by Toyotaro so the only form that makes narrative sense is first form.

Aka>SSJ Gotenks(Yo! Son)>Full Power Frieza>Base Goten/Trunks>=Abo/Cado=First Form Frieza is what we get by synthesizing Chozenshuu 4 and Toyotaro's statements together.
Didn't Aka get trashed by base Gotenks?

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