Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Thani
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:23 pm

Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm MUI Goku is probably still above Vegeta, so pump the breaks. Seems more likely to be another case of " Goku let his guard down again." When Vegeta surpasses Goku, Goku has always said something, so I think we should wait for something along those lines.
Goku didn't let his guard down. Whenever something like this happens it is highlighted by some character, Vegeta was watching and he just praised Granolah's abilities. Goku kind of can't get caught off guard using MUI since he basically doesn't need to think to move and Granolah appeared in front of him so he could have reacted if he was able. Granolah just outspeed him (and yes, I know there's that whole accuracy dropping thing, that played a role too)
That did play a major role. Granolah said he couldn't see any vitals on Goku after he went with MUI, but later stated "I knew I could find an opening eventually". So yeah, basically the beat is that Goku wasted his stamina on a clone, so MUI's performance dropped enough for real!Granolah to see an exploitable opening on Goku's defense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:33 pm

Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm MUI Goku is probably still above Vegeta, so pump the breaks. Seems more likely to be another case of " Goku let his guard down again." When Vegeta surpasses Goku, Goku has always said something, so I think we should wait for something along those lines.
Goku didn't let his guard down. Whenever something like this happens it is highlighted by some character, Vegeta was watching and he just praised Granolah's abilities. Goku kind of can't get caught off guard using MUI since he basically doesn't need to think to move and Granolah appeared in front of him so he could have reacted if he was able. Granolah just outspeed him (and yes, I know there's that whole accuracy dropping thing, that played a role too)
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm Initial activation PUI is more than likely stronger than Vegeta.
Are you referring to Evolved Blue Vegeta or his new form? Because we still don't know its power
Both. Ultra Instinct has been portrayed as unbeatable if mastered correctly and Vegeta has hardly ever been superior in terms of physical strength to Goku in the series thus far. He may get a better showing because Hakai is inherently a difficult technique to get around, but by the end of the arc Goku will for sure be stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:39 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:18 pm
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm Goku didn't let his guard down. Granolah specifically stated that Goku's power was progressively dropping while he stayed in the form. Initial activation PUI is more than likely stronger than Vegeta.
Let's also consider the possibility that Vegeta's new form could also possess such weakness, since it's (as far as we know) unmastered and unused before.
I was thinking along those same lines. It might back fire on Vegeta. He just got done talking to Granolah about recently aquirinig this absurd strength, and not being use to it. How poetic would it be if Vegeta had a similar short coming and the form fails him because of lack of training.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:23 pm That did play a major role. Granolah said he couldn't see any vitals on Goku after he went with MUI, but later stated "I knew I could find an opening eventually". So yeah, basically the beat is that Goku wasted his stamina on a clone, so MUI's performance dropped enough for real!Granolah to see an exploitable opening on Goku's defense.
You are not wrong. I'm just saying that at that moment Granola actually moved faster than Goku could react, and attacked harder than he could handle, he wasn't caught off guard. But I also wonder, does the "accuracy" that Granola mentioned refers only to Goku's ability to dodge or does it also refer to his reaction speed?
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:33 pm Both. Ultra Instinct has been portrayed as unbeatable if mastered correctly and Vegeta has hardly ever been superior in terms of physical strength to Goku in the series thus far. He may get a better showing because Hakai is inherently a difficult technique to get around, but by the end of the arc Goku will for sure be stronger.
I don't doubt that Goku will end up being stronger at the end of this saga, but we're talking about the present moment. Vegeta hardly being physically stronger than Goku or not in previous sagas has no bearing here (just as it had no bearing in the Moro saga when he surpassed Goku for a brief moment). Whenever one trumps the other it's in terms of power/strength so I don't see a problem here. No technique will be truly unbeatable because there will always be another villain who will need to match the heroes

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 pm

But Vegeta didn't surpass Goku against Moro, that's my point. He got a better showing because of FSF but characters repeatedly make the point that his physical strength hadn't improved and UIS Goku was implied to be stronger. In a one-on-one fight between the two, UIS Goku would have won since FSF would have been useless on him. So a similar case may happen here, Vegeta may put on a better showing because Hakai is trickier to get around for Granolah, but if he fights Goku instead he may lose because PUI is probably still the stronger overall form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:07 pm

Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Thani wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:23 pm That did play a major role. Granolah said he couldn't see any vitals on Goku after he went with MUI, but later stated "I knew I could find an opening eventually". So yeah, basically the beat is that Goku wasted his stamina on a clone, so MUI's performance dropped enough for real!Granolah to see an exploitable opening on Goku's defense.
You are not wrong. I'm just saying that at that moment Granola actually moved faster than Goku could react, and attacked harder than he could handle, he wasn't caught off guard. But I also wonder, does the "accuracy" that Granola mentioned refers only to Goku's ability to dodge or does it also refer to his reaction speed?
Good question, I think it's everything, personally. Like, if the silver UI gives Goku a boost in dodging, striking and reaction, then said boost would decrease when the form lost it's power. So in this case UI stops being as effective and, thus, it's user becomes capable of being blindsided by attacks that normally he would be able to react to and avoid.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:25 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 pm But Vegeta didn't surpass Goku against Moro, that's my point. He got a better showing because of FSF but characters repeatedly make the point that his physical strength hadn't improved and UIS Goku was implied to be stronger. In a one-on-one fight between the two, UIS Goku would have won since FSF would have been useless on him. So a similar case may happen here, Vegeta may put on a better showing because Hakai is trickier to get around for Granolah, but if he fights Goku instead he may lose because PUI is probably still the stronger overall form.
Okay, I won't go into the merits of whether or not Vegeta surpassed Goku in that fight (although I think it's clear and the dialogues about it speak for themselves), but it is directly said that Vegeta was stronger than ever, so clearly his physical strength/power has increased. It wasn't just the new technique

And I brought the example of Moro but it could be any other time that Vegeta surpassed Goku in the series (because surpassing someone in Dragon Ball is almost always related to strength). It happened before, is my point, and it wouldn't be surprising if it happened again even if Goku ended the saga stronger (but we're talking about the present moment). Vegeta even without the new form has already performed better facing a stronger version of Granolah than the one faced by Goku. So again, there would be no problem if he surpassed Goku again even if just for some chapters, as already happened before in other sagas.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 pm

I just don't believe he would win in a one on one fight. Super has made it clear that rather than raw power, techniques and match-ups are key. Even in the recent chapter, Vegeta specifically reiterated that to Granolah.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 am

Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 pm But Vegeta didn't surpass Goku against Moro, that's my point. He got a better showing because of FSF but characters repeatedly make the point that his physical strength hadn't improved and UIS Goku was implied to be stronger. In a one-on-one fight between the two, UIS Goku would have won since FSF would have been useless on him. So a similar case may happen here, Vegeta may put on a better showing because Hakai is trickier to get around for Granolah, but if he fights Goku instead he may lose because PUI is probably still the stronger overall form.
Piccolo, Moro and Goku himself all implied and basically stated that Vegeta had grown considerably in strength and Goku mentioned that he was even surprised that Vegeta grew as strong as he did and that he would surpass him. I think it’s clear by all of their statements that in that arc, ssbe vegeta was definitely stronger than ui sign Goku even if it was barely. There’s barely any evidence to suggest otherwise outside of Goku’s superior speed. Going off of your own point, if forced spirit fission is useless against Goku then why else would Goku say that he’ll surpass Vegeta again? Because I’m terms of raw power he’s been surpassed, Vegeta’s new technique was not what Goku was referring to. This isn’t to say that Vegeta would outright beat ui sign Goku in a fight though. But to deny what’s been shown and stated is pretty crazy tbh

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:31 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol
I'd argue Vegeta could probably solo all the GoDs himself

The battle royale looks so bad in hindsight. They really made us believe Beerus wasn't leagues stronger than everyone else lol smh

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:16 pm

Jmass97 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 am
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 pm But Vegeta didn't surpass Goku against Moro, that's my point. He got a better showing because of FSF but characters repeatedly make the point that his physical strength hadn't improved and UIS Goku was implied to be stronger. In a one-on-one fight between the two, UIS Goku would have won since FSF would have been useless on him. So a similar case may happen here, Vegeta may put on a better showing because Hakai is trickier to get around for Granolah, but if he fights Goku instead he may lose because PUI is probably still the stronger overall form.
Piccolo, Moro and Goku himself all implied and basically stated that Vegeta had grown considerably in strength and Goku mentioned that he was even surprised that Vegeta grew as strong as he did and that he would surpass him. I think it’s clear by all of their statements that in that arc, ssbe vegeta was definitely stronger than ui sign Goku even if it was barely. There’s barely any evidence to suggest otherwise outside of Goku’s superior speed. Going off of your own point, if forced spirit fission is useless against Goku then why else would Goku say that he’ll surpass Vegeta again? Because I’m terms of raw power he’s been surpassed, Vegeta’s new technique was not what Goku was referring to. This isn’t to say that Vegeta would outright beat ui sign Goku in a fight though. But to deny what’s been shown and stated is pretty crazy tbh
You're right, I forgot they mentioned Vegeta's strength had improved. Even still, none of them are impressed with his power. Moro tanks his attacks and Vegeta's blows only start having an effect when FSF starts taking effect. Contrast that to Piccolo claiming Goku and Moro are equals when they were both suppressed and then Goku even overpowering Moro when they both power up to full. Vegeta has "surpassed" Goku in that he was able to defeat the opponent Goku could not. As I said above, Super has been trying to stray away from the idea that power is everything, that is why Vegeta despite his inferior strength and speed managed to defeat Moro, he had a superior match-up due to FSF. However if Goku and Vegeta fought each other that arc, Ultra Instinct would be the superior match-up assuming FSF had no effect on Goku (which I don't see why it should).
Nevaeh wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol
I'd argue Vegeta could probably solo all the GoDs himself

The battle royale looks so bad in hindsight. They really made us believe Beerus wasn't leagues stronger than everyone else lol smh
But the GoD Royale clearly portrayed Beerus, Quitela and arguably Belmod above everyone else, and the rest were not far below them if they were able to leave Beerus and Quitela in such a bloodied up state. Folks have to realize that the Gods of Destruction simply got elevated now, it isn't Beerus exclusive. I'd easily argue that due to new developments, Belmod would beat Jiren despite the latter's higher battle power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FiReFTW » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:36 pm

Yuji wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:16 pm
Jmass97 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 am
Yuji wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 pm But Vegeta didn't surpass Goku against Moro, that's my point. He got a better showing because of FSF but characters repeatedly make the point that his physical strength hadn't improved and UIS Goku was implied to be stronger. In a one-on-one fight between the two, UIS Goku would have won since FSF would have been useless on him. So a similar case may happen here, Vegeta may put on a better showing because Hakai is trickier to get around for Granolah, but if he fights Goku instead he may lose because PUI is probably still the stronger overall form.
Piccolo, Moro and Goku himself all implied and basically stated that Vegeta had grown considerably in strength and Goku mentioned that he was even surprised that Vegeta grew as strong as he did and that he would surpass him. I think it’s clear by all of their statements that in that arc, ssbe vegeta was definitely stronger than ui sign Goku even if it was barely. There’s barely any evidence to suggest otherwise outside of Goku’s superior speed. Going off of your own point, if forced spirit fission is useless against Goku then why else would Goku say that he’ll surpass Vegeta again? Because I’m terms of raw power he’s been surpassed, Vegeta’s new technique was not what Goku was referring to. This isn’t to say that Vegeta would outright beat ui sign Goku in a fight though. But to deny what’s been shown and stated is pretty crazy tbh
You're right, I forgot they mentioned Vegeta's strength had improved. Even still, none of them are impressed with his power. Moro tanks his attacks and Vegeta's blows only start having an effect when FSF starts taking effect. Contrast that to Piccolo claiming Goku and Moro are equals when they were both suppressed and then Goku even overpowering Moro when they both power up to full. Vegeta has "surpassed" Goku in that he was able to defeat the opponent Goku could not. As I said above, Super has been trying to stray away from the idea that power is everything, that is why Vegeta despite his inferior strength and speed managed to defeat Moro, he had a superior match-up due to FSF. However if Goku and Vegeta fought each other that arc, Ultra Instinct would be the superior match-up assuming FSF had no effect on Goku (which I don't see why it should).
Nevaeh wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol
I'd argue Vegeta could probably solo all the GoDs himself

The battle royale looks so bad in hindsight. They really made us believe Beerus wasn't leagues stronger than everyone else lol smh
But the GoD Royale clearly portrayed Beerus, Quitela and arguably Belmod above everyone else, and the rest were not far below them if they were able to leave Beerus and Quitela in such a bloodied up state. Folks have to realize that the Gods of Destruction simply got elevated now, it isn't Beerus exclusive. I'd easily argue that due to new developments, Belmod would beat Jiren despite the latter's higher battle power.
Thats not true, Goku was doing good against Moro, but after Moro actually increased his power and started fighting seriously he knocked the crap out of him and destroyed him in seconds.

I would say that Vegeta was definitely on par with Goku sign at that point, he also got punched and thrown a few times by Moro and if he was weaker than Goku he would have been down after 1 or 2 attacks at the start.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:45 pm

Nevaeh wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol
I'd argue Vegeta could probably solo all the GoDs himself

The battle royale looks so bad in hindsight. They really made us believe Beerus wasn't leagues stronger than everyone else lol smh
It's mental that people say this. He dodged all of them and owned several while dodging the others until belmod got fed up and attacked others. Yeah it was psudeo UI but it wasn't Goku dodging one mortal it was dodging GoDs.

Beerus is clearly on another level compared to most GoDs
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:37 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 amWhat do you guys think Vegeta meant by "I'm growing stronger already" mid fight?
When reading, I got the impression that this was an explicit 'in-continuity' reference to Toriyama's statement that Saiyans rapidly get stronger to close the gap when continuing to fight stronger opponents.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:36 pm

TobyS wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:45 pm
Nevaeh wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:14 pm Lol, Beerus' power keeps growing. His trainee will trash the strongest in the universe. He'd definitely one-shot every other GoD.

At the beginning of the arc, there was the possibility of Beerus being slightly stronger than Granola, but now we know he should be leagues above him. One wonders why didn't Beerus just blink EarthMoro out of existence before going to see the GP... blinking would've been overkill, though.
Or why didn't he at least one-shot Vermouth lol
I'd argue Vegeta could probably solo all the GoDs himself

The battle royale looks so bad in hindsight. They really made us believe Beerus wasn't leagues stronger than everyone else lol smh
It's mental that people say this. He dodged all of them and owned several while dodging the others until belmod got fed up and attacked others. Yeah it was psudeo UI but it wasn't Goku dodging one mortal it was dodging GoDs.

Beerus is clearly on another level compared to most GoDs
When Beerus actually stopped using his pseudo-UI, he started being hit and taking damage. And even when using it, he actually got caught by Mosco, with Whis saying that not even Beerus is perfect. All he did with it at the beginning was dodge people, get caught, outsmart a group of them and toss a big blast that was easily negated by Sidra.

Beerus can't be on another level compared to most GoD's because he was clearly affected by Rumuush's roar just like all the others. He also ended the fight bloodied and full of wounds.

The GoD Battle Royale is an awful indication of ranking because it's, by definition, chaotic. Beerus hit a lot of people and a lot of people hit Beerus back, and the same applies to all of the gods there save for Belmod. Beerus and Quitela surviving to the end in such a context could just as well mean that they got either lucky or were just too stubborn to fall.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:07 am

Just generally, it seems like people may want to revisit UI Sign Goku vs. Moro, which plays out as follows:

1) Goku has the upper hand via his speed and movement

2) Moro notes that Goku’s power is starting to wane, which is what the was waiting for; they both decide to bring out their full power (end of first chapter)

3) They start out seemingly even or with Goku having the slight upper hand, before Moro stands up and proclaims that if that’s Goku’s full power, he never needed to have worried about it in the first place

4) Moro then completely shuts Goku down. Which, had he known he had nothing to be cautious of, he apparently could/would have down from the start.

Admittedly the presentation on Vegeta vs. Moro doesn’t sell a huge difference, but considering he’s going up against the Moro who just put UI Sign Goku down without breaking too much of a sweat (once he got serious), and is able to at least land enough clean blows for Spirit Fission to work ... and considering both Piccolo and Goku note that his strength has increased (as well as knowing it did based on his fight with Yuzan on Yardrat), and Goku proclaims he’ll “surpass” him again...

It seems like about as clear a lock for Vegeta being on top there as the series could possibly make.

Others not catching on right away seems to play more off of the idea that he isn’t breaking out a new transformation (and remember, no one else there can read god ki), and doesn’t seem to be making any more substantial headway than Goku was able to at the end of his fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:00 pm

So I'm starting to read the Moro arc and wondered. How strong was Dai Kaioshin before sealing up Moro's magic?

CSSB level? Above? Below?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:22 am

Do we take Vegeta's fight with Granolah compared to Beerus to mean that Beerus is stronger?

Beerus beat down Vegeta much easier than Granolah did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:13 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:22 am Do we take Vegeta's fight with Granolah compared to Beerus to mean that Beerus is stronger?

Beerus beat down Vegeta much easier than Granolah did.
We just had the Dragon tell us some chapters ago that Granolah is weaker than Beerus.

Have you not been keeping up with the story?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:47 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:22 am Do we take Vegeta's fight with Granolah compared to Beerus to mean that Beerus is stronger?

Beerus beat down Vegeta much easier than Granolah did.
Even if Beerus is still supposed to be stronger I don't see why the fight against Granola would be indicative of that. Everything points out that current Evolved Blue Vegeta is much stronger than the one that faced Beerus due to his training considering his exhibition against an opponent that is at least as strong as MUI Goku

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