Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:26 am

Skar wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:24 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:46 pmI'm talking about the one where we disagree on Base Goku < Frieza where a few posters are so adamant that they are correct that won't properly address anything the opposing side has to say. It makes it clear that this site is more interested in sharing the same opinion rather than facilitating any sort of intellectual discussion at all. I'm not referring to you since you've been responding to my posts, I'm referring to the few members that don't bother once I refute their claims.
Well there's nothing left to be said since it comes down to whether or not you want to believe that line. You've given your reasons but no one was convinced that it should be dismissed, wrong, or doesn't apply anymore so they're probably agreeing to disagree. This is what Herms said about it for the DBS anime and he points out it's almost identical to what Beerus said in BoG:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 4614498309
Yes, I'm aware that statement was made in the anime. What statement does he make to Super Saiyan Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:41 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:26 amYes, I'm aware that statement was made in the anime. What statement does he make to Super Saiyan Goku?
I checked to see what Herms said since I couldn't remember:
What does this have to do with base Goku though?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am

It’s fine if you think Piccolo is that much strong, but I’m not on board with it, and frankly I don’t think Toriyama or Toyotaro are either.

Even in Super, Piccolo doesn’t accomplish anything as remarkable as Super Saiyans, even in comparison with the stagnant Gohan, who can easily beat characters that Piccolo can at best hold off for a while. Putting him close to mastered SS level is too generous for me. Cell Jrs. are actually close to that level, and with Goten and Trunks being up there with them, it’s just putting two and two together.

And I think Cipher’s take on this matter is pretty spot on, not only because he understands Japanese better than most of us, but because I tend to favor aggressive powerlevel lines myself as well. Subtleties don’t combine well with battle power assessment in my opinion.

dragonball0900 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:39 am
And honestly I don’t see any evidence that shows that Piccolo has surpassed a Cell Jr. either, at least not until he had his potential unlocked.
Piccolo before the ToP was seen easily defeating SSJ2 Gohan, this same Gohan must have been at least as strong as his Buu Saga self, so Piccolo should be far above a Cell Jr. at this point. There's no way he is still weaker by the time of DBS Super Hero.
You missed the part of my post that I mentioned episode 88, that fight doesn’t make any sense. Piccolo couldn’t even beat SS Gohan a few months ago and suddenly he was able to beat SS2? And then SS Gohan got back to being stronger than him again in ToP and SH. This is just a example of why some of us don’t use anime here. Too much conflicting stuff in itself and with Toriyama’s other works. It’s a total mess.

Anyway, Base Goku vs. Freeza, really again?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:01 am

Skar wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:41 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:26 amYes, I'm aware that statement was made in the anime. What statement does he make to Super Saiyan Goku?
I checked to see what Herms said since I couldn't remember:
What does this have to do with base Goku though?
Mostly because it's presented that Frieza is the strongest person Super Saiyan Goku could fight and that only become apparent once Goku swaps hands with him. Goku's response I feel may be telling because he's insulted by Beerus' claim. But that's really my interpretation of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:15 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:01 amMostly because it's presented that Frieza is the strongest person Super Saiyan Goku could fight and that only become apparent once Goku swaps hands with him. Goku's response I feel may be telling because he's insulted by Beerus' claim. But that's really my interpretation of it.
I thought the line was a little confusing since Freeza's the strongest mortal in U7 that Beerus is aware of anyway. We still have Goku disagreeing with Beerus here while not saying anything when Beerus said his base was weaker than Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:35 am

Skar wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:15 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:01 amMostly because it's presented that Frieza is the strongest person Super Saiyan Goku could fight and that only become apparent once Goku swaps hands with him. Goku's response I feel may be telling because he's insulted by Beerus' claim. But that's really my interpretation of it.
I thought the line was a little confusing since Freeza's the strongest mortal in U7 that Beerus is aware of anyway. We still have Goku disagreeing with Beerus here while not saying anything when Beerus said his base was weaker than Freeza.
Goku was a passive listener. Kaiosama primarily did all of the talking and Goku was mainly interested in battling him.

There are complications with assuming Base Goku < Frieza. Goku is recognized as the strongest Saiyan during Battle of Gods which means that his Base form naturally surpasses Gotenks' which surpasses the power of the Super Saiyan Kids. In Resurrection F, Base Gohan was explicitly stated to be the strongest of the group which included Piccolo. Base Gohan was certainly weaker than Base Goku as Goku is stronger than Gohan was at his prime whereas Gohan had grown much weaker than what he was in his prime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:47 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am You missed the part of my post that I mentioned episode 88, that fight doesn’t make any sense. Piccolo couldn’t even beat SS Gohan a few months ago and suddenly he was able to beat SS2? And then SS Gohan got back to being stronger than him again in ToP and SH. This is just a example of why some of us don’t use anime here. Too much conflicting stuff in itself and with Toriyama’s other works. It’s a total mess.
Piccolo grew over 10 times stronger in a week just by doing meditation on Kaio's planet.

Power gains never followed logic on this series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:41 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:35 amGoku was a passive listener. Kaiosama primarily did all of the talking and Goku was mainly interested in battling him.

There are complications with assuming Base Goku < Frieza. Goku is recognized as the strongest Saiyan during Battle of Gods which means that his Base form naturally surpasses Gotenks' which surpasses the power of the Super Saiyan Kids. In Resurrection F, Base Gohan was explicitly stated to be the strongest of the group which included Piccolo. Base Gohan was certainly weaker than Base Goku as Goku is stronger than Gohan was at his prime whereas Gohan had grown much weaker than what he was in his prime.
Most of these various attempts to discredit it imply that Toriyama or Toei intended us to read between the lines to determine this statement was wrong rather than not include the line in the first place to avoid confusion or have someone correct Beerus. I'm going to agree to disagree since I don't want to go through those again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:32 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am It’s fine if you think Piccolo is that much strong, but I’m not on board with it, and frankly I don’t think Toriyama or Toyotaro are either.
If we're talking Super, then Toyotaro is definitely on board with what I'm saying, otherwise he wouldn't have Piccolo put up such a good fight vs. Frost, 7-3, or Saganbo. He also wouldn't have had him standing up to Moro and threatening to destroy him. It's cool if you don't think that.
Even in Super, Piccolo doesn’t accomplish anything as remarkable as Super Saiyans, even in comparison with the stagnant Gohan, who can easily beat characters that Piccolo can at best hold off for a while.

If we're talking anime, he busted Vados' barrier with relative ease with SPC while SSB KKx10 Goku's KMHMH struggled to do the same thing. Manga-wise, Goku needed SSB to comfortably deal with Saganbo while Saganbo could not one-shot Gohan or Piccolo. Knowing the vast power difference between SSJ and SSB, I can say that Piccolo is far far above SSJ by the end of the Moro arc. Lowball would be SSJ3.
Putting him close to mastered SS level is too generous for me. Cell Jrs. are actually close to that level
Cell Jr's are far below MSSJ level if Vegeta and Trunks can keep up with them.
and with Goten and Trunks being up there with them, it’s just putting two and two together.

Which is basically what I'm doing with Piccolo. You'd have to ignore a lot of evidence, mostly subtext to assume Piccolo is weaker than a Cell Jr. by the time of Moro, let alone DBS: Super Hero. I get that it's easy to overlook due to inconsistencies, but if you're looking at this stuff in detail, it's easy to figure out. Piccolo's extremely subtle arc has featured him getting stronger with every arc he's appeared in.
And I think Cipher’s take on this matter is pretty spot on, not only because he understands Japanese better than most of us, but because I tend to favor aggressive powerlevel lines myself as well.
Cipher's logic makes a lot of sense to me as does yours but the logic fails when it results in such an extreme take especially when it opposes what the story is clearly showing. I mean, come on, you guys have to create brand new battle mechanics for the show to make this make sense such as this "tag-team" mechanic where characters who are substantially weaker can keep up and tank hits from fighters millions of times stronger than them.
Subtleties don’t combine well with battle power assessment in my opinion.
Fair enough. I just don't find what the story is presenting to be subtle. Piccolo is close to Gohan's strength but somewhat weaker as has been the case since RoF. That dynamic stays throughout ToP, Moro, and now Super Hero. Clear as day.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:40 am

So, where do we have Gohan and Piccolo in their normal base forms as of "Super Hero"?

The 2 of them seem quite comparable to one another, especially their respective Ultimate forms, but I'm not sure exactly where their lower states are concerned.

Is Gohan on-par with Piccolo in his base form, or his Super Saiyan form? Once he got serious against Gamma 1, he seemed to be having about as much trouble with him as Piccolo did with Gamma 2 prior to unlocking his potential, though things didn't really change once he went Super Saiyan after Gamma 1 adjust to the increased level of power.

Piccolo is definitely comparable to one of these 2 states as far as Gohan is concerned.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:43 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:46 pm I'm not referring to you since you've been responding to my posts, I'm referring to the few members that don't bother once I refute their claims.
My guy, you didn't "refute" anything. I said three different times in this conversation that I'm no longer interested in continuing this, and I meant it. Beerus said what he said and there's nothing further to add. If you're looking for additional examples that align with Beerus's statement or that kind of scaling (even though they're not needed), you can find them within the dozen other times this argument was brought up; DBZ Kakarot is just the most recent one. I'm not obligated to keep engaging with you if I don't want to.

When even Herms is vouching for its veracity, it's time to hang up the hat. You not agreeing with an explicit line is a 'you' problem that I don't care to solve.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:54 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:40 am So, where do we have Gohan and Piccolo in their normal base forms as of "Super Hero"?
Not the best source but those wafer cards is all we have for something official. They had:
SSJ Gohan > Base Goku and Vegeta > Piccolo > Base Gohan.

Piccolo was between Base and a weakened SSJ Gohan in RoF so that might not have changed from Toriyama's perspective until Piccolo had his potential unlocked.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:43 am

Piccolo is definitely stronger than base Gohan throughout the manga and movies. I still haven't seen Super Hero yet, but I doubt there's anything in there that would contest it.

Speaking of, I'm with Hugo Boss manga-wise. I really don't think Toyotaro was trying to portray base Piccolo as having god+ tier power in the Moro arc, given that he accomplished everything via teamwork. Here in the latest movie, he's got transformations for that express purpose — which I can easily see the manga opting to include in the future.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am

Without going into detail, and avoiding spoilers (in 11 days the SH will be premiering here), Piccolo's power in SH, prior to the developments that take place throughout the film, what does it say about his involvement in the Moro arc?

His fight his Saganbo divided this thread into two groups, SSB tier Piccolo and non-SSB tier Piccolo. So, what does SH have to say about that?

I know we're mixing continuities here, but in-universe, was Piccolo already blue tier by the time SH starts?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 amI know we're mixing continuities here, but in-universe, was Piccolo already blue tier by the time SH starts?
I don't think Toriyama has Piccolo growing much stronger since than the Cell Games because he seems to be still weaker than SSJ Gohan in Super Hero like he was in RoF. Ultimate Piccolo might be around Ultimate Gohan and only their final transformations seem to be God tier. From a storytelling perspective, I think it would defeat the purpose of needing his potential unlocked if he could reach Blue tier with no transformations in barely a few weeks/months of training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:42 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am Without going into detail, and avoiding spoilers (in 11 days the SH will be premiering here), Piccolo's power in SH, prior to the developments that take place throughout the film, what does it say about his involvement in the Moro arc?

His fight his Saganbo divided this thread into two groups, SSB tier Piccolo and non-SSB tier Piccolo. So, what does SH have to say about that?

I know we're mixing continuities here, but in-universe, was Piccolo already blue tier by the time SH starts?
Nope. He's definitely not god tier until he gets Ultimate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:09 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:40 am So, where do we have Gohan and Piccolo in their normal base forms as of "Super Hero"?

The 2 of them seem quite comparable to one another, especially their respective Ultimate forms, but I'm not sure exactly where their lower states are concerned.

Is Gohan on-par with Piccolo in his base form, or his Super Saiyan form? Once he got serious against Gamma 1, he seemed to be having about as much trouble with him as Piccolo did with Gamma 2 prior to unlocking his potential, though things didn't really change once he went Super Saiyan after Gamma 1 adjust to the increased level of power.

Piccolo is definitely comparable to one of these 2 states as far as Gohan is concerned.
I think the Gammas' power increased as the fight went along, particularly the one Gohan was fighting. He was stronger than Gohan the entire time, dominating base but had some slight trouble with SSJ but proved about even with Ultimate Gohan. I watched without subs (and unable to understand Japanese), but apparently Piccolo compares the Gammas to SSB later.

I think you're accurate because the early Gammas seem to be base to SSJ tier as the fights with Piccolo and Gohan demonstrate and both get much stronger over time.
Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am Without going into detail, and avoiding spoilers (in 11 days the SH will be premiering here), Piccolo's power in SH, prior to the developments that take place throughout the film, what does it say about his involvement in the Moro arc?

His fight his Saganbo divided this thread into two groups, SSB tier Piccolo and non-SSB tier Piccolo. So, what does SH have to say about that?

I know we're mixing continuities here, but in-universe, was Piccolo already blue tier by the time SH starts?
It doesn't have to be that extreme. Keeping in mind that it is a different continuity to the movies. I don't think Piccolo's power is relevant to the SSB of the Moro arc. I think for that arc he is likely just above SSJ3. In Super, Piccolo seems to have found godly ways to amp his attacks which is prevalent in the anime, but I believe Toyotaro used this concept in the manga as well. I think Piccolo's self-destruction was Blue tier, but Piccolo himself was not.

I do think Piccolo's current power would have to probably at least match SSB-tier from the RoF arc to be relevant to Moro, Gohan, #17 and Saganbo though. But Moro arc SSB is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ROF SSB.

I don't necessarily think movie Piccolo is SSJ3 level from what I've seen of DBS SH, but manga Piccolo is and anime Piccolo is a little stronger than SSJ2 with an SSB level charged SBC.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:15 pm

Thanks. Yeah, I figured the manga was too low key about it for it to be true, and also for what it accomplished.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:27 pm

BWri wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:32 am If we're talking Super, then Toyotaro is definitely on board with what I'm saying, otherwise he wouldn't have Piccolo put up such a good fight vs. Frost, 7-3, or Saganbo. He also wouldn't have had him standing up to Moro and threatening to destroy him. It's cool if you don't think that.
Don’t you think a “good fight” is more a matter of opinion than subtext or evidence? Frost is weaker than Super Saiyans and 7-3 is arguably weaker than Frost (Saganbo was the strongest Moro’s henchmen even before the massive power-up he received and he was still weaker than Trunks, according to Vegeta).

If we're talking anime, he busted Vados' barrier with relative ease with SPC while SSB KKx10 Goku's KMHMH struggled to do the same thing. Manga-wise, Goku needed SSB to comfortably deal with Saganbo while Saganbo could not one-shot Gohan or Piccolo. Knowing the vast power difference between SSJ and SSB, I can say that Piccolo is far far above SSJ by the end of the Moro arc. Lowball would be SSJ3.
I usually don’t talk about the anime here, but even there SBC is a very special case (without it, Piccolo is still weaker than Super Saiyans). In the manga, it certainly doesn’t look like Saganbo was having any difficulty with the four of them. Even 18 was there as proof of what I’m saying, she offered the same resistance as Gohan albeit she is weaker than Super Saiyans, though not to the same extent as Piccolo.

Cell Jr's are far below MSSJ level if Vegeta and Trunks can keep up with them.
That’s fair, as it will depend on how much stronger you think Goku was in comparison with Vegeta. I don’t have any hard numbers myself either, but I think my point is that Cell Jrs. and Goten and Trunks are closer than Piccolo, given his recent showings.

You'd have to ignore a lot of evidence, mostly subtext to assume Piccolo is weaker than a Cell Jr. by the time of Moro, let alone DBS: Super Hero. I get that it's easy to overlook due to inconsistencies, but if you're looking at this stuff in detail, it's easy to figure out. Piccolo's extremely subtle arc has featured him getting stronger with every arc he's appeared in.
I’m all for Piccolo having considerable power-up due to this character trait. I just don’t think any of that stuff you mentioned constitutes subtext or evidence to favor the idea. Subtext is fighting evenly or better than someone notably stronger than a Super Saiyan (the anime tried to do it with episode 88, but forgot it regardless two episodes later). It seems Toriyama only remembered to make Piccolo truly great in SH with his new forms, as if all this training was building up strength that Piccolo somehow wasn’t able to access by himself until now.

I mean, come on, you guys have to create brand new battle mechanics for the show to make this make sense such as this "tag-team" mechanic where characters who are substantially weaker can keep up and tank hits from fighters millions of times stronger than them.
I wouldn’t say this is a novelty. There are plenty of examples of this happening in Toriyama’s original manga as well. Against Freeza, androids etc. Tag-team feats are ToP special theme. It totally defies traditional battle power comparisons.

Piccolo is close to Gohan's strength but somewhat weaker as has been the case since RoF. That dynamic stays throughout ToP, Moro, and now Super Hero. Clear as day.
In RoF, Gohan one-shotted Shisami, who was equally matched with Piccolo. In ToP, Piccolo didn’t fight anyone comparable to a Super Saiyan. In Moro, he fought two characters far stronger than Super Saiyan, but granted 18 did it as well, and both were on the losing end.

And finally, Super Hero, Piccolo fought Gamma #2, but *spoiler alert* he didn’t accomplish anything again, not to mention Gamma #2 was massively holding back. He is still weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan there, and after so much unimpressive showings it finally took Piccolo to have his potential unlocked, and, even by doing so, he was still weaker than Gamma #2, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

So, to say Piccolo is only “somewhat” weaker than Gohan in those instances is a huge overstatement.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:32 pm

The issue with this Base Saiyans thing is, Toriyama writes Beerus saying Goku can’t beat Freeza and we take it exactly as it is, but Kaioshin, Babidi and Dabra all think Kaioshin can’t handle Pui Pui or Yakon and it’s supposed to just be a huge misunderstanding? What kind of double standard is that? Between these two contradictory lines, I’m obviously taking the one that makes the most sense over the one from a character who consistently lies to motivate Goku throughout the saga.
Skar wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:54 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:40 am So, where do we have Gohan and Piccolo in their normal base forms as of "Super Hero"?
Not the best source but those wafer cards is all we have for something official. They had:
SSJ Gohan > Base Goku and Vegeta > Piccolo > Base Gohan.

Piccolo was between Base and a weakened SSJ Gohan in RoF so that might not have changed from Toriyama's perspective until Piccolo had his potential unlocked.
That sounds accurate. Piccolo seemed to be base level back in the ToP, so after some years with Gohan slacking while everyone trains the chain turns into this.
Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am Without going into detail, and avoiding spoilers (in 11 days the SH will be premiering here), Piccolo's power in SH, prior to the developments that take place throughout the film, what does it say about his involvement in the Moro arc?

His fight his Saganbo divided this thread into two groups, SSB tier Piccolo and non-SSB tier Piccolo. So, what does SH have to say about that?

I know we're mixing continuities here, but in-universe, was Piccolo already blue tier by the time SH starts?
There definitely is room for Piccolo to be ToP SSJB level since Goku and Vegeta powered up a lot in the Moro Saga. I wouldn’t say he is Blue level though since I think SH flows better in the anime continuity, and I’m not even sure of how strong Manga Piccolo is anyway.
BWri wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:09 pm I think the Gammas' power increased as the fight went along, particularly the one Gohan was fighting. He was stronger than Gohan the entire time, dominating base but had some slight trouble with SSJ but proved about even with Ultimate Gohan. I watched without subs (and unable to understand Japanese), but apparently Piccolo compares the Gammas to SSB later.

I think you're accurate because the early Gammas seem to be base to SSJ tier as the fights with Piccolo and Gohan demonstrate and both get much stronger over time.
I’ve seen people suggesting the Gammas get stronger as they fight, and it that’s the case then Piccolo comparing them to Goku and Vegeta is even more confusing now. What do you make of that? Just a ballpark estimative from Piccolo’s part?
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