Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Skar
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 pm

LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pmIt's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.
Yeah the scale works for the movies since Beerus at 70% would still be stronger than Goku who was at 60% of his power. It made sense to remove that line for DBS since they likely weren't sure how long the series would last and when Toriyama finally decides to have Goku surpass Beerus.

I think all the lines about characters being close to Beerus could still work since we don't know the gap between them. Toriyama only came up with SSJB so he might not have had it grow as powerful as in the manga and anime. If Blue Vegetto was a 10, Blue Gogeta might only be an 11 or 12 and not necessarily strong enough to one shot Vegetto. Same with Jiren, Broly, and UI Goku. I still think it would be odd for Toriyama or any author to have a character compared to Beerus when they're really only a tiny fraction of his power since it would be easier to not include those lines at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 pm
Freeza's race is a lot more durable than Saiyans. In RoF an exhausted Freeza survived Earth's destruction while a fresh Blue Vegeta died.

I will ask again, if Broly was over 50 times weaker then why didn't Gogeta one shot him?

To the point that he can literally be beating for 30 minutes by a foe who has to be at least 50x stronger than him when Super Saiyan Goku who was 150 million to his 120 million managed to exhaust him? Also, Vegeta didn't die to the planet exploding, he died because he can't breath in space which Whis specially cites as to why Frieza survived. Unless you think a planetary explosion can kill someone like Vegeta.

Because Broly is a brute who wouldn't stay down. And this question can be asked about Gogeta which I posed, but you didn't answer. If Broly was so strong that he could beat Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he kill Super Saiyan Gogeta when he hit him three times or at the very least badly injured him like what Gohan did to Cell?

Remember, in Dragon Ball people got one-shotted by far less than 50x weaker. Like Nappa basically one-shotted Piccolo.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:54 pm

Marz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm It was protected since Jiren had to literally break his limits to even began to overwhelmed UI and he still lost. UI was never defeated, Jiren knocked him down once, Goku got a second win and Jiren never got the advantage again. Jiren in the manga overpowered UI the moment he punched him out of it. Claiming that Jiren defeated UI because he knocked UI down once is like saying Frieza defeated Super Saiyan Goku when he buried him into Namek after he pushed his way around Goku's full power Kamehameha.
You said that nobody wanted to put anything above the UI. And this is wrong because in Goku's very first fight with this transformation, he is outmatched and outright overpowered by Jiren. It doesn't matter if Jiren needed to ''break his limits'', Goku also needed to get stronger than he was to gain the upper hand again.
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
Beerus says right to your face that the battle was about which of the two would run out of stamina first. Jiren's power boost just allowed him to force Goku's stamina to run out faster since as Whis said, Jiren's faster and stronger attacks forced Goku to react faster too and that took a toll on his body (wasting more of energy). Jiren never surpassed or overpowered Goku in terms of sheer strength, he just made his stamina run out faster.
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm Moro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?
Goku dodged his attacks too, but there were just too many hands and he was able to get through them with his strength anyway


And as posted above, Moro was draining the energy from everyone on Earth faster than Vegeta could drain him.

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:39 pm He didn't need to see Tien do it to know that he cut his power and speed in fourths. And remember, this is a Goku who only just learned to sense ki and he figured that out. And Vegeta not knowing that Granolah power also an issue.

It isn't about organically. We're talking about a person who learned to sense energy so well that he can sense ki from across the galaxy to used his IT, so you're trying to tell me that he suddenly can't tell when someone right in front of him cut their power in half or more.
I can tell now that you haven't really read the manga, because Granola doesn't split his power right in front of Goku. He knew about the arrival of the Saiyans before and that's why he had already prepared a clone to face them earlier, to save energy to fight Frieza. Goku didn't know the guy, and the original was hidden inside his ship away from the battlefield, so obviously there was no way for him to tell if his power was splitted or weaker than it should, lol. And worse, the clone was so strong that Goku even admits that he'd probably have to go all out, so power wasn't really a metric to use for him.

The comparison with Tien doesn't make any sense anyway. Goku's strategy against him wasn't about finding the real body, he capitalized on the fact that Tien's eyesight was too good and used Solar Flare to blind him, and then realized that making the clones splitted Tien's power so Goku managed to take them all down easily. It has nothing to do with Granola's situation
Jiren only overpowered UI for a second and then Goku got a second win and beat him. Saying that Jiren knocked UI down once and 'he was over UI' is like me saying Frieza burying Super Saiyan Goku on Namek put him over.

Jiren's power boost allowed him to fight and beat UI when he was losing before. It's really no different than the anime except Jiren won. He overpowered UI.

He flew through Moro's hands, which is how he got caught, which is shown in the scan. Goku literally could have kept dodging instead of going for the Superman punch.

Uub gave energy to Goku when he was standing on the ground. So why wasn't his energy drained. Same with the rest of the Z-Fighters when they were donating.

" because Granola doesn't split his power right in front of Goku."

Did I say that? I said Goku should have noticed that Granola's power suddenly dropped since the multiform divides power. And Goku really shouldn't be that surprised since he faced the multiform before and he saw that Granola knew a bunch of old goodies.

And isn't about 'finding the true body'. It's about Goku being shocked by a multiform technique that he flexed when he was a teenager.
Skar wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 pm
LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pmIt's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.
Yeah the scale works for the movies since Beerus at 70% would still be stronger than Goku who was at 60% of his power. It made sense to remove that line for DBS since they likely weren't sure how long the series would last and when Toriyama finally decides to have Goku surpass Beerus.

I think all the lines about characters being close to Beerus could still work since we don't know the gap between them. Toriyama only came up with SSJB so he might not have had it grow as powerful as in the manga and anime. If Blue Vegetto was a 10, Blue Gogeta might only be an 11 or 12 and not necessarily strong enough to one shot Vegetto. Same with Jiren, Broly, and UI Goku. I still think it would be odd for Toriyama or any author to have a character compared to Beerus when they're really only a tiny fraction of his power since it would be easier to not include those lines at all.

Toriyanm more or less told us why those lines where removed. Namely, he wanted to keep Goku and Vegeta weaker than Beerus because if they became stronger there wouldn't be much way to go from there. However, that was back before the Future Trunks Saga aired in the anime and he's obviously putting Goku and Vegeta within range of Beerus if he has no problem making foes like Jiren and Broly who are comparable to Beerus. So much so that he gave Goku a massive power-up and took it away, so Goku remains only as strong as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan allows him for that time.

We also don't know how much power Beerus has or hasn't used. Most who go by 'Beerus is using a small faction of his power' use it to pushed that Beerus could easily beat Jiren and Broly. Which makes little sense in the way of Jiren since Beerus would need to basically one-shot Belmond to stomp Jiren and nothing shows that Belmond is that weak. And if Broly was no match for Beerus at all, why even have Goku say anything? At least Toyo saying Vegito Blue = Beerus makes sense in the sense that Toyo wanted Vegito for fan-service and really wanted to wanked him, only to walked it back and say 'well, Shin could be wrong, who knows'.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:00 pm

HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pm
Because Broly is a brute who wouldn't stay down. And this question can be asked about Gogeta which I posed, but you didn't answer. If Broly was so strong that he could beat Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he kill Super Saiyan Gogeta when he hit him three times or at the very least badly injured him like what Gohan did to Cell?

Remember, in Dragon Ball people got one-shotted by far less than 50x weaker. Like Nappa basically one-shotted Piccolo.
But this rarely happen in Super. And in DBZ in general this rarely happens with main characters when it matters to the plot. This isn't math.

In normal Super Saiyans, both Broly and Gogeta were equals - they trade punches equally, both send each other flying, etc - with Gogeta holding the ultimate advantage of not being a rampaging berserker, therefore being able to dodge and hit his opponent with far more competence.

With Super Saiyan Full Power, which is when his hair turn green, Broly becomes strong enough that Gogeta goes straight to Blue. He doesn't bother to go SSj2, 3 or even God. He goes straight to Blue in order to overwhelm Broly so completely that he can't catch up. And even then Broly takes one of hell of a beating.
HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pmDid I say that? I said Goku should have noticed that Granola's power suddenly dropped since the multiform divides power. And Goku really shouldn't be that surprised since he faced the multiform before and he saw that Granola knew a bunch of old goodies.
Literally no reason to assume he could be aware of fighting a clone. Granolah was on his ship the entire time. It was never his true body fighting them. They were tricked. That's all there is to it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:16 pm

Thani wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:00 pm
HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pm
Because Broly is a brute who wouldn't stay down. And this question can be asked about Gogeta which I posed, but you didn't answer. If Broly was so strong that he could beat Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he kill Super Saiyan Gogeta when he hit him three times or at the very least badly injured him like what Gohan did to Cell?

Remember, in Dragon Ball people got one-shotted by far less than 50x weaker. Like Nappa basically one-shotted Piccolo.
But this rarely happen in Super. And in DBZ in general this rarely happens with main characters when it matters to the plot. This isn't math.

In normal Super Saiyans, both Broly and Gogeta were equals - they trade punches equally, both send each other flying, etc - with Gogeta holding the ultimate advantage of not being a rampaging berserker, therefore being able to dodge and hit his opponent with far more competence.

With Super Saiyan Full Power, which is when his hair turn green, Broly becomes strong enough that Gogeta goes straight to Blue. He doesn't bother to go SSj2, 3 or even God. He goes straight to Blue in order to overwhelm Broly so completely that he can't catch up. And even then Broly takes one of hell of a beating.
HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pmDid I say that? I said Goku should have noticed that Granola's power suddenly dropped since the multiform divides power. And Goku really shouldn't be that surprised since he faced the multiform before and he saw that Granola knew a bunch of old goodies.
Literally no reason to assume he could be aware of fighting a clone. Granolah was on his ship the entire time. It was never his true body fighting them. They were tricked. That's all there is to it.
It rarely happens in Super because except for Beerus because most foes are closed to each power. And even using Super, Jiren basically two-touched Golden Frieza. Black also comboed Super Saiyan Trunks and broke his arm without really trying. So if Broly was stronger than Super Saiyan God Gogeta, even by Super's stands he should have done more damage to Super Saiyan Gogeta. Remember, Jiren did this to Goku in a few hits: https://youtu.be/TF-wr5HYB8M?t=227. Yet, the best we got from Gogeta was a grunt and him being knocked back from a foe who is at least 400x stronger than him and is completely out of control unlike Jiren who held back.

Broly taking a beating doesn't mean much since again, using that same logic Frieza in his base form would be much stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta even if we account for his body being more durable since he got his ass kicked for half an hour and still had the stamina to go gold only to get his ass kicked again for thirty minutes and never lose his form. In face, Frieza was still able to walk away like nothing happened.

He as tricked by....a technique that he flexed on before when he was a teenager and acted shocked when Granola pulled a Bond villain and explained exactly what he did.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:18 am

HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:54 pm Jiren only overpowered UI for a second and then Goku got a second win and beat him. Saying that Jiren knocked UI down once and 'he was over UI' is like me saying Frieza burying Super Saiyan Goku on Namek put him over.
You've already contradicted yourself. Jiren overpowered Goku while Frieza didn't, so their situation isn't comparable. Goku laughed at Frieza's blows and said he would be disappointed if that was all he had. Even when he was "buried" it was because Frieza dodged Kamehameha in the middle of the clash and hit him head-on, not because he was stronger at some point during the fight. Jiren straight up beat him in a beam clash, completely engulfing his Kamehameha and then knocking him down to the point where Goku was shaking and barely able to stand up. The fact that he needed a power boost to get the upper hand is enough.
HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:54 pm Did I say that? I said Goku should have noticed that Granola's power suddenly dropped since the multiform divides power. And Goku really shouldn't be that surprised since he faced the multiform before and he saw that Granola knew a bunch of old goodies.

And isn't about 'finding the true body'. It's about Goku being shocked by a multiform technique that he flexed when he was a teenager.
HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:16 pm He as tricked by....a technique that he flexed on before when he was a teenager and acted shocked when Granola pulled a Bond villain and explained exactly what he did.
At this point you're just being purposefully obtuse man, and more proof that you didn't actually read the manga because there was no way for Goku to realize that Granola's power had been split because by the time they landed, the clone was already prepared. Goku was tricked in the sense that he was fighting a clone the entire time, but there was no way he could have known that. He didn't know that the real one was hidden and prepared to attack him, only Vegeta noticed it because he was watching from outside the fight. There was no time for him to realize because Granola was quick and lethal. Nothing here is comparable to the situation he faced against Tien

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:22 am

HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 pm
Freeza's race is a lot more durable than Saiyans. In RoF an exhausted Freeza survived Earth's destruction while a fresh Blue Vegeta died.

I will ask again, if Broly was over 50 times weaker then why didn't Gogeta one shot him?

To the point that he can literally be beating for 30 minutes by a foe who has to be at least 50x stronger than him when Super Saiyan Goku who was 150 million to his 120 million managed to exhaust him? Also, Vegeta didn't die to the planet exploding, he died because he can't breath in space which Whis specially cites as to why Frieza survived. Unless you think a planetary explosion can kill someone like Vegeta.

Because Broly is a brute who wouldn't stay down. And this question can be asked about Gogeta which I posed, but you didn't answer. If Broly was so strong that he could beat Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he kill Super Saiyan Gogeta when he hit him three times or at the very least badly injured him like what Gohan did to Cell?

Remember, in Dragon Ball people got one-shotted by far less than 50x weaker. Like Nappa basically one-shotted Piccolo.
In the movie they said that Broly was getting stronger as he fought. Gogeta has to transform to Blue to keep up, and I do agree Gogeta was stronger but not by much, you could see on Gogeta’s face that he was not playing with Broly like Vegito was doing with Buuhan but was going all out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 am

LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:25 pm So from start date to current date, Beerus has not been a "moving goalpost" but a carefully hedged benchmark. The story is careful in keeping absolutes away from his deity while wrapping him in mystery.
BoG and RoF clearly had a different approach than the manga/anime.
It's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.

The line mentioning the joint efforts of Goku and Vegeta possibly being enough to defeat Beerus is building on the progress it was determined then.

But then came the reset.
It's a new anime and manga, can't have Goku and Vegeta catching up in 1 arc to the big wall set by modern Dragon Ball. So what was done was to remove the 70% line from both manga and anime.

Then like you ref=renced, Beerus new standing is mentioned with the comparison to Vegetto Blue and that's been the standard since.
In all three continuities, they stress that Goku was absolutely "no match" for a Beerus who didn't use his full power. It didn't matter if the 70% line is there or not. Since the gap in power was too "huge" for Goku at that level anyway. Even in BoG; Beerus labels that 70% power no where near to going all out.

To say Goku should of already surpassed Beerus, when he was no match for a Beerus holding back, doesn't make much sense.

BTW; Toriyama didn't state that Beerus was a 10 to BoG Goku; he protected himself with...

Image

"Suppose" and "IF" concerning Beerus power. Again Beerus's full power was always a mystery.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:58 am

Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 am
LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pm BoG and RoF clearly had a different approach than the manga/anime.
It's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.

The line mentioning the joint efforts of Goku and Vegeta possibly being enough to defeat Beerus is building on the progress it was determined then.

But then came the reset.
It's a new anime and manga, can't have Goku and Vegeta catching up in 1 arc to the big wall set by modern Dragon Ball. So what was done was to remove the 70% line from both manga and anime.

Then like you ref=renced, Beerus new standing is mentioned with the comparison to Vegetto Blue and that's been the standard since.
In all three continuities, they stress that Goku was absolutely "no match" for a Beerus who didn't use his full power. It didn't matter if the 70% line is there or not. Since the gap in power was too "huge" for Goku at that level anyway. Even in BoG; Beerus labels that 70% power no where near to going all out.

To say Goku should of already surpassed Beerus, when he was no match for a Beerus holding back, doesn't make much sense.

BTW; Toriyama didn't state that Beerus was a 10 to BoG Goku; he protected himself with...

Image

"Suppose" and "IF" concerning Beerus power. Again Beerus's full power was always a mystery.
Its kind of clear what Toriyama meant at that time. It could read as "I suppose if Beerus was a 1 million, SSJG is a 600k. He didn't protect anything with that statement, Beerus power was only stated as to give a gauge for how powerful SSJG was. The whole context of that statement is to tell us how powerful SSJG was in relation to him after all. So the 40% gap exists, which in turn fits perfectly with statements in the movie. Toriyama in typical Toriyama fashion writes by the seat of his pants. The guy just never planned how far this would actually go, and thankfully that comment doesn't exist anymore within the manga, and the statements of his 100% power in the anime were a lie.

We truly need to stay away from comparing people to Beerus currently as we end up with another Broly fiasco, cause they seriously effed that up in retrospect. They could've said you might be as powerful as Lord Beerus, but no, instead the movies fucks it up further by going with "he's probably even stronger than Beerus". They could have said probably as powerful; hell leave out the probably altogether, because even though some uncertainty still exists, something being probable is something which is likely to be the case. Its not quite the 50/50 statement as a word such as "might" or "maybe". Until the writers of these statements have any idea where the story is going they need to stay the hell away from anything related to Beerus power wise. Luckily that statement isn't in the manga, and the only statement we actually do have comes from Vegetto, and since we never see Gogetas showing in the manga against Broly, Vegetto could still actually be that strong in terms of raw power. The only glimpse we have of that fight comes from a single drawing where Toyo has Gogeta state "Sorry, but the story where I fought you got cut, later Broly". I'm not gonna try and gauge anything from that image in relation to the fight however, cause its basically a gag.

Trying to make sense of all the statements in the series is nigh impossible when using a composite version. Too many things weren't planned, and we don't even know if that Broly statement in the film came from Toriyama. However one thing is clear, Beerus is still the top dog, and until we have another statement from the manga (it needs to come from one continuity, and not a mix match) we currently have no idea where current Beerus lies, but I'd imagine with Vegeta now learning the hakai techniques we will be getting a closer look into how special Beerus actually is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:24 am

It was really dumb to include the Broly-Beerus comparison when they had no idea where they would end up having Beerus, and if they did then it's even dumber. If the anime comes back and retells the movie, that quote will be left out.
Sure, you can chalk it up to Goku not knowing what he's talking about, but why do that? when you could've just said "you are the strongest I've ever fought", or "you might even be stronger than a guy that I just fought not so long ago".
Shin's comment too, but again, why is every asshole speaking so freely about what they don't know? "oh you must be stronger than Beerus", "I bet you rival Beerus", these people aren't real, they say what the authors make them say, what gives?

It boggles me that they keep having the characters say unreliable shit. Why is that? to mess with the audience?

or the powers that be are really pushing it to have Beerus surpassed but Toriyama is having none of that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:47 am

Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 am In all three continuities, they stress that Goku was absolutely "no match" for a Beerus who didn't use his full power. It didn't matter if the 70% line is there or not. Since the gap in power was too "huge" for Goku at that level anyway. Even in BoG; Beerus labels that 70% power no where near to going all out.

To say Goku should of already surpassed Beerus, when he was no match for a Beerus holding back, doesn't make much sense.

BTW; Toriyama didn't state that Beerus was a 10 to BoG Goku; he protected himself with...



"Suppose" and "IF" concerning Beerus power. Again Beerus's full power was always a mystery.
I repeat my points before. Just to be direct look at the anime where Goku has Kaioken x10, if the movies were to be taken into the context of Super, Goku had surpassed Beerus as soon as the U6 tournament arc.
You say it doesn't make sense, I say it's undeniable.

I don't know how you're taking that meaning from that very direct statement from Toriyama. "If" relates to giving Beerus a number to rationalize his logic and a scale for others to follow. The 10 doesn't matter per se, it could be a 1 or 1.000. It's the measuring stick to explain how others compare to him, Goku a 6 and Whis a 15 in this case.

Goku at the time being worth 60% of Beerus power is explicit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:03 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:58 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 am
LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pm BoG and RoF clearly had a different approach than the manga/anime.
It's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.

The line mentioning the joint efforts of Goku and Vegeta possibly being enough to defeat Beerus is building on the progress it was determined then.

But then came the reset.
It's a new anime and manga, can't have Goku and Vegeta catching up in 1 arc to the big wall set by modern Dragon Ball. So what was done was to remove the 70% line from both manga and anime.

Then like you ref=renced, Beerus new standing is mentioned with the comparison to Vegetto Blue and that's been the standard since.
In all three continuities, they stress that Goku was absolutely "no match" for a Beerus who didn't use his full power. It didn't matter if the 70% line is there or not. Since the gap in power was too "huge" for Goku at that level anyway. Even in BoG; Beerus labels that 70% power no where near to going all out.

To say Goku should of already surpassed Beerus, when he was no match for a Beerus holding back, doesn't make much sense.

BTW; Toriyama didn't state that Beerus was a 10 to BoG Goku; he protected himself with...

Image

"Suppose" and "IF" concerning Beerus power. Again Beerus's full power was always a mystery.
Its kind of clear what Toriyama meant at that time. It could read as "I suppose if Beerus was a 1 million, SSJG is a 600k. He didn't protect anything with that statement, Beerus power was only stated as to give a gauge for how powerful SSJG was. The whole context of that statement is to tell us how powerful SSJG was in relation to him after all. So the 40% gap exists, which in turn fits perfectly with statements in the movie. Toriyama in typical Toriyama fashion writes by the seat of his pants. The guy just never planned how far this would actually go, and thankfully that comment doesn't exist anymore within the manga, and the statements of his 100% power in the anime were a lie.

We truly need to stay away from comparing people to Beerus currently as we end up with another Broly fiasco, cause they seriously effed that up in retrospect. They could've said you might be as powerful as Lord Beerus, but no, instead the movies fucks it up further by going with "he's probably even stronger than Beerus". They could have said probably as powerful; hell leave out the probably altogether, because even though some uncertainty still exists, something being probable is something which is likely to be the case. Its not quite the 50/50 statement as a word such as "might" or "maybe". Until the writers of these statements have any idea where the story is going they need to stay the hell away from anything related to Beerus power wise. Luckily that statement isn't in the manga, and the only statement we actually do have comes from Vegetto, and since we never see Gogetas showing in the manga against Broly, Vegetto could still actually be that strong in terms of raw power. The only glimpse we have of that fight comes from a single drawing where Toyo has Gogeta state "Sorry, but the story where I fought you got cut, later Broly". I'm not gonna try and gauge anything from that image in relation to the fight however, cause its basically a gag.

Trying to make sense of all the statements in the series is nigh impossible when using a composite version. Too many things weren't planned, and we don't even know if that Broly statement in the film came from Toriyama. However one thing is clear, Beerus is still the top dog, and until we have another statement from the manga (it needs to come from one continuity, and not a mix match) we currently have no idea where current Beerus lies, but I'd imagine with Vegeta now learning the hakai techniques we will be getting a closer look into how special Beerus actually is.
Toriyama protected Beerus with Broly being "probably" stronger since it was an assumption by a character. Again, nothing definite. That is keeping things purposely open.

Same with the Super Saiyan God comparison in BoG. You can see in context Toriyama "SUPPOSES" that "IF" Beerus is a 10.

Compared to Toriyama explicitly smacking SSJG right at six. Since in the film, SSSJG Goku was no match for even a Beerus using "nearly" 70% of his power. Again, this is Toriyama playing it safe with Beerus. Since he knew then, that he wanted Beerus around for the future.

Image

However, You are right about Toriyama "writing by the seat of his pants" for the franchise as a whole. In that same interview; He said he had no idea about it's future...

Image

Which proves exactly why Toriyama does not ever use absolutes for Beerus. Not having things planned while using certainty's would trap him.
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:47 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 am In all three continuities, they stress that Goku was absolutely "no match" for a Beerus who didn't use his full power. It didn't matter if the 70% line is there or not. Since the gap in power was too "huge" for Goku at that level anyway. Even in BoG; Beerus labels that 70% power no where near to going all out.

To say Goku should of already surpassed Beerus, when he was no match for a Beerus holding back, doesn't make much sense.

BTW; Toriyama didn't state that Beerus was a 10 to BoG Goku; he protected himself with...



"Suppose" and "IF" concerning Beerus power. Again Beerus's full power was always a mystery.
I repeat my points before. Just to be direct look at the anime where Goku has Kaioken x10, if the movies were to be taken into the context of Super, Goku had surpassed Beerus as soon as the U6 tournament arc.
You say it doesn't make sense, I say it's undeniable.

I don't know how you're taking that meaning from that very direct statement from Toriyama. "If" relates to giving Beerus a number to rationalize his logic and a scale for others to follow. The 10 doesn't matter per se, it could be a 1 or 1.000. It's the measuring stick to explain how others compare to him, Goku a 6 and Whis a 15 in this case.

Goku at the time being worth 60% of Beerus power is explicit.
Again and I repeat...Where does Goku even compete with Beerus at "nearly" 70%? Since Goku in BoG wasn't even a match for that level of Beerus? That's nothing but an assumption, to claim Beerus was surpassed with a KaiokenX10 in the anime. When Goku was never stated to be even close to him in the first place.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:03 pm
Toriyama protected Beerus with Broly being "probably" stronger since it was an assumption by a character. Again, nothing definite. That is keeping things purposely open.

Same with the Super Saiyan God comparison in BoG. You can see in context Toriyama "SUPPOSES" that "IF" Beerus is a 10.

Compared to Toriyama explicitly smacking SSJG right at six. Since in the film, SSSJG Goku was no match for even a Beerus using "nearly" 70% of his power. Again, this is Toriyama playing it safe with Beerus. Since he knew then, that he wanted Beerus around for the future.
This is a total bizarre misinterpretation of what Toriyama was talking about. The use of "if" here is not in any way comparable to the "probably" used when talking about Broly, and is not being used in the same way at all. He is using "if" here to talk about mathematical relations between the numbers, and even if Beerus isn't a 10 (whatever that means in isolation??) Goku's power given was in relation to him. If Beerus is a 10, Goku is a 6. If Beerus is a 20, Goku is a 12. If Beerus is 1000, Goku is 600. It's the same as stating "if" a hypotenuse triangle has side A = 3 and side B = 4, the hypotenuse is 5. It's about relations.

Saying that "Goku is a 6" was explicitly stated is meaningless because something being a 6 doesn't mean anything without relation to something else, and also it's stated based on "if" Beerus is a 10. So, if Beerus isn't a 10, then Goku isn't a 6.

Even under the same Logic you used, he says "[Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6" and "Whis would be about a 15" without any "if" on that statement. So Whis is definitely a 15 but Beerus isn't definitely a 10??

Not to mention that Beerus using 70% of his power matches perfectly with him being a 10 and Goku being a 6. A 7 is comfortably above a 6 and all that was needed to beat Goku comfortably while still putting in some effort. Battle of Gods had totally different power relationships than what was established in Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:56 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:44 pm You are clearly writing fanfiction. Again read your own posts and try to understand the story before posting. :lol:
How is a hypothetical question amongst a series that keeps bringing out other deities time and time again me writing anything?

Me asking a question isn't a statement so why you have had to lie yet again when you're struggling to get around the first lie is beyond me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:10 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm This is a total bizarre misinterpretation of what Toriyama was talking about. The use of "if" here is not in any way comparable to the "probably" used when talking about Broly, and is not being used in the same way at all. He is using "if" here to talk about mathematical relations between the numbers, and even if Beerus isn't a 10 (whatever that means in isolation??) Goku's power given was in relation to him. If Beerus is a 10, Goku is a 6. If Beerus is a 20, Goku is a 12. If Beerus is 1000, Goku is 600. It's the same as stating "if" a hypotenuse triangle has side A = 3 and side B = 4, the hypotenuse is 5. It's about relations.

Saying that "Goku is a 6" was explicitly stated is meaningless because something being a 6 doesn't mean anything without relation to something else, and also it's stated based on "if" Beerus is a 10. So, if Beerus isn't a 10, then Goku isn't a 6.
Even under the same Logic you used, he says "[Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6" and "Whis would be about a 15" without any "if" on that statement. So Whis is definitely a 15 but Beerus isn't definitely a 10??

Not to mention that Beerus using 70% of his power matches perfectly with him being a 10 and Goku being a 6. A 7 is comfortably above a 6 and all that was needed to beat Goku comfortably while still putting in some effort. Battle of Gods had totally different power relationships than what was established in Super.
You said what I was trying to say, but in a much more articulate and thorough manner. Such a good way of putting it, kudos dude.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:25 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:03 pm
Toriyama protected Beerus with Broly being "probably" stronger since it was an assumption by a character. Again, nothing definite. That is keeping things purposely open.

Same with the Super Saiyan God comparison in BoG. You can see in context Toriyama "SUPPOSES" that "IF" Beerus is a 10.

Compared to Toriyama explicitly smacking SSJG right at six. Since in the film, SSSJG Goku was no match for even a Beerus using "nearly" 70% of his power. Again, this is Toriyama playing it safe with Beerus. Since he knew then, that he wanted Beerus around for the future.
This is a total bizarre misinterpretation of what Toriyama was talking about. The use of "if" here is not in any way comparable to the "probably" used when talking about Broly, and is not being used in the same way at all. He is using "if" here to talk about mathematical relations between the numbers, and even if Beerus isn't a 10 (whatever that means in isolation??) Goku's power given was in relation to him. If Beerus is a 10, Goku is a 6. If Beerus is a 20, Goku is a 12. If Beerus is 1000, Goku is 600. It's the same as stating "if" a hypotenuse triangle has side A = 3 and side B = 4, the hypotenuse is 5. It's about relations.

Saying that "Goku is a 6" was explicitly stated is meaningless because something being a 6 doesn't mean anything without relation to something else, and also it's stated based on "if" Beerus is a 10. So, if Beerus isn't a 10, then Goku isn't a 6.

Even under the same Logic you used, he says "[Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6" and "Whis would be about a 15" without any "if" on that statement. So Whis is definitely a 15 but Beerus isn't definitely a 10??

Not to mention that Beerus using 70% of his power matches perfectly with him being a 10 and Goku being a 6. A 7 is comfortably above a 6 and all that was needed to beat Goku comfortably while still putting in some effort. Battle of Gods had totally different power relationships than what was established in Super.
I get what you are saying. I too at first thought Toriyama using "If" as an example for a condition. In this case the number relation with the 10 and 6 comparison. However, you missed where Toriyama "supposed" his number with Beerus. Toriyama even "guessed" with Whis's number.

This number comparisons is stated not to be taken at face value.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:56 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:44 pm You are clearly writing fanfiction. Again read your own posts and try to understand the story before posting. :lol:
How is a hypothetical question amongst a series that keeps bringing out other deities time and time again me writing anything?

Me asking a question isn't a statement so why you have had to lie yet again when you're struggling to get around the first lie is beyond me.
You writing a qustion trying to pretend it has any validity is the problem. Such a question has not even an ounce of truth. There are no other gods except that which is already mentioned.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:43 pm

What's with this thread and people always misinterpreting simple things?

"toughest ever" >>>> strongest ever, there's no "he was talking about how hard his chest is".

"apart from the gods">>> Beerus n Whis, no other gods.

"I suppose if we have to give them numbers... " >>> there's no subtext, no ulterior meaning. If one is 10, the other is a 6, and the other one is 15.


Why does this fandom analyzes so much every single word?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:59 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:25 pm I get what you are saying. I too at first thought Toriyama using "If" as an example for a condition. In this case the number relation with the 10 and 6 comparison. However, you missed where Toriyama "supposed" his number with Beerus. Toriyama even "guessed" with Whis's number.

This number comparisons is stated not to be taken at face value.
Using "if" is exactly how someone talks about relations of numbers when they're giving those numbers example values. The reason you thought Toriyama meant it was a condition was because it was what he meant, but now Super's existence muddies the waters. The whole purpose of the word if is as a conditional.

The "suppose" was talking about both Beerus and Goku. He says "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6". He doesn't say "I suppose Beerus might be a 10. Goku is a 6". Goku's strength is conditional on Beerus' strength in that sentence, therefore it is a statement about the relation of their powers. He was not talking about Beerus ambiguously and Goku straightforwardly. Again, saying "Goku is a 6" is literally entirely and completely meaningless if he isn't also saying "Beerus is a 10".

He uses "I suppose" and "I guess" to mean that these are the numbers he would use to assign them if he had to assign numbers to them. It's an illustration of where his headspace was at in how he sees these people in relation to each other. But he is also completely free to change his mind and not be beholden to these numbers or their relations, as he did do. But that is still the definition of moving the goal post.

I agree with you to an extent about Beerus in Super as a whole, but Battle of Gods and to a lesser degree the RoF film had totally different rules
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:43 pm What's with this thread and people always misinterpreting simple things?

"toughest ever" >>>> strongest ever, there's no "he was talking about how hard his chest is".

"apart from the gods">>> Beerus n Whis, no other gods.

"I suppose if we have to give them numbers... " >>> there's no subtext, no ulterior meaning. If one is 10, the other is a 6, and the other one is 15.


Why does this fandom analyzes so much every single word?
Amen

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:08 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:59 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:25 pm I get what you are saying. I too at first thought Toriyama using "If" as an example for a condition. In this case the number relation with the 10 and 6 comparison. However, you missed where Toriyama "supposed" his number with Beerus. Toriyama even "guessed" with Whis's number.

This number comparisons is stated not to be taken at face value.
Using "if" is exactly how someone talks about relations of numbers when they're giving those numbers example values. The reason you thought Toriyama meant it was a condition was because it was what he meant, but now Super's existence muddies the waters. The whole purpose of the word if is as a conditional.

The "suppose" was talking about both Beerus and Goku. He says "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6". He doesn't say "I suppose Beerus might be a 10. Goku is a 6". Goku's strength is conditional on Beerus' strength in that sentence, therefore it is a statement about the relation of their powers. He was not talking about Beerus ambiguously and Goku straightforwardly. Again, saying "Goku is a 6" is literally entirely and completely meaningless if he isn't also saying "Beerus is a 10".

He uses "I suppose" and "I guess" to mean that these are the numbers he would use to assign them if he had to assign numbers to them. It's an illustration of where his headspace was at in how he sees these people in relation to each other. But he is also completely free to change his mind and not be beholden to these numbers or their relations, as he did do. But that is still the definition of moving the goal post.

I agree with you to an extent about Beerus in Super as a whole, but Battle of Gods and to a lesser degree the RoF film had totally different rules
Ah I see! Toriyama only assumes the number scale [He could of used any number relation] as a condition to compare both Beerus and Goku. Nice!

Thank you for that correction Jack Bz!!! I was wrong. I'm glad I have understanding on that now! I appreciate your understanding and explanation to me!

@Sora Saiyan: You are right too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:13 pm

HeroR wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 pm
Freeza's race is a lot more durable than Saiyans. In RoF an exhausted Freeza survived Earth's destruction while a fresh Blue Vegeta died.

I will ask again, if Broly was over 50 times weaker then why didn't Gogeta one shot him?

To the point that he can literally be beating for 30 minutes by a foe who has to be at least 50x stronger than him when Super Saiyan Goku who was 150 million to his 120 million managed to exhaust him? Also, Vegeta didn't die to the planet exploding, he died because he can't breath in space which Whis specially cites as to why Frieza survived. Unless you think a planetary explosion can kill someone like Vegeta.

Because Broly is a brute who wouldn't stay down. And this question can be asked about Gogeta which I posed, but you didn't answer. If Broly was so strong that he could beat Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he kill Super Saiyan Gogeta when he hit him three times or at the very least badly injured him like what Gohan did to Cell?

Remember, in Dragon Ball people got one-shotted by far less than 50x weaker. Like Nappa basically one-shotted Piccolo.
Freeza survived a fucking planet exploding on him with less than half of his body and almost no Ki. Yeah, he can take that beating.

I will respond your other question with another. Why didn't Boo kill base Trunks when he hit him straight on the face in the RoSaT?

You are looking too much into it.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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