Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 08, 2022 9:17 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm Goku and Toppo’s match was interrupted by the Great Priest, but Goku left the ring believing he and Toppo were equally matched. And that’s the info that was transmitted to Vegeta. Later, Vegeta matches Toppo because he trained in the RoSaT again. Goku did the same after fighting multiple times in the preparation episodes and training with Whis in the gravity chamber. Not to mention that Goku was possibly on even ground with Gohan with Super Saiyan Blue and Gohan was no match for Toppo later, suggesting Goku got considerably stronger.

Vermoud saw Goku using Super Saiyan Blue multiple times in the tournament, so I don’t think he is referring to only that. Blue Kaioken is actually treated by the gods as Goku’s full power, as this is the form in which they saw he doing the most impressive stuff.
Goku and Vegeta trained for like an hour before the ToP. They are not going to get significantly stronger than before. Not without statements saying so.

Gohan rivaled Goku but he was not his equal. Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and that's a 1.25 gap so Gohan not being able to beat Toppo is no problem.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 08, 2022 9:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:17 pm Goku and Vegeta trained for like an hour before the ToP. They are not going to get significantly stronger than before. Not without statements saying so.

Gohan rivaled Goku but he was not his equal. Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and that's a 1.25 gap so Gohan not being able to beat Toppo is no problem.
Statements are good and all, but in this case we have subtext. Goku can match with only Blue a warrior that he matched before with Blue Kaioken, so he is at least twice stronger. Being a hour or not, it’s useless trying to rationalize these gains, as Gohan was able to scratch Blue tier in that short time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon May 09, 2022 12:05 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:24 pm
Statements are good and all, but in this case we have subtext. Goku can match with only Blue a warrior that he matched before with Blue Kaioken, so he is at least twice stronger. Being a hour or not, it’s useless trying to rationalize these gains, as Gohan was able to scratch Blue tier in that short time.
How strong do you think Goku had become from his time fighting Caulifa to the moment where he battled SSJ Kefla? I would definitely agree that there was a substantial increase in power there allowing SSJB Goku using Kaiokenx20 to briefly match an opponent who was as powerful as his Genkidama that he used prior. Then there are also the multiple statements suggesting that SSJ2 Goku was powering up against Caulifa, again in Blue against Kefla, and again using Ultra Instinct Omen in response to Kefla's beastly Super Saiyan 2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 09, 2022 12:16 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:24 pm Statements are good and all, but in this case we have subtext. Goku can match with only Blue a warrior that he matched before with Blue Kaioken, so he is at least twice stronger. Being a hour or not, it’s useless trying to rationalize these gains, as Gohan was able to scratch Blue tier in that short time.
Toppo is not a match for Blue Kaioken.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon May 09, 2022 2:49 am

ZombieVito wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:16 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:24 pm Statements are good and all, but in this case we have subtext. Goku can match with only Blue a warrior that he matched before with Blue Kaioken, so he is at least twice stronger. Being a hour or not, it’s useless trying to rationalize these gains, as Gohan was able to scratch Blue tier in that short time.
Toppo is not a match for Blue Kaioken.
How do you follow? Goku needed Kaioken x10 at least to match Toppo's full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:24 pm Couldn't we just throw the same argument in reverse? SSJ2 Kefla was competing with an individual with a form that not even the GoDs could obtain in addition to it yielding both power and abilities that vastly outstrip SSJB Kaiokenx20 let alone just regular Super Saiyan Blue. In contrast, Merged Zamasu lost to a Super Saiyan Blue and a Super Saiyan Rage Trunks wielding a Spirit Sword.
You can't use those arguments in reverse because we know that Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito are also far above that level of power. Those powers and abilities vastly outstrip SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku, but that's nothing impressive. We already know that Corrupted Fused Zamasu and Vegito Blue also vastly outstrip those powers, because Gowasu said that the only way to defeat Zamasu was to attack him with a power far greater than anything ever used before [referring to Full Power SSB Kaioken]. Which means that Corrupted Fused Zamasu is a foe far greater than SSB Kaioken, like Jiren and Kefla, and thereby Blue Vegito, who could compete with and even overpower Fused Zamasu at times, has got to be exponentially greater too.

So the fact that Jiren could so easily beat SSB Kaioken Goku is not impressive, because we know that Fused Zamasu can do that too. It's the whole reason why they fused in the first place. If SSB Kaioken was enough, they wouldn't have fused into Vegito. Goku ate a Senzu bean and was back at full strength, he could have kept fighting if that was enough. They fused into Vegito because SSB Kaioken Goku is legit fodder to Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

As for Zamasu losing to a SSB and Trunks, well, it was Vegito Blue. He's infinitely stronger than SSB Goku, who was pressuring SS Kefla.
I think it's dishonest just to downplay Kefla primarily because of the form she was using. After all, Trunks was a Super Saiyan 2 during the Zamasu Arc yet held his own quite well against Goku Black and Zamasu who could fend off both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta. Regardless of what anyone else would say on the matter, I think we can agree on that.
I didn't talk only about her form.

I'm also saying that Kefla's fusées are weak. Kale and Caulifla were trashed and almost eliminated by SSG Goku, whereas Goku Black was stated by Gowasu to be the most powerful fighter on the battlefield, thus surpassing even SSB Goku.

SSRosé Goku Black > SSB Goku > SSG Goku > [massive gap] Kale and Caulifla = SS3 Goku

Goku Black could, quite literally and unironically, oneshot Kale and Caulifla.

On top of Goku Black, we have Future Zamasu, who, if we want to truly, disgustingly downplay him, is SS2 level like Caulifla. And we have a Potara boost that should be even higher than Kefla, because while Kale and Caulifla are best friends, Zamasu and Black are literally the same person and it's explicitly mentioned that, as such, their synergy and coordination is perfect.
Naturally, I would agree with you but what muddies things here is how much Goku had evolved during the Tournament. That can play a significant role in how powerful Kale and Caulifa is in comparison to Goku Black and Zamasu.
Is there any statement or proof that shows SSB Goku in the ToP got stronger than in the FT arc? Was Goku even training at all after the FT arc? All I remember were a bunch of filler episodes and then the ToP arc started, and Goku had no time to train due to having to fight in the Exhibition match and recruit the Team.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon May 09, 2022 6:42 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:24 pm Couldn't we just throw the same argument in reverse? SSJ2 Kefla was competing with an individual with a form that not even the GoDs could obtain in addition to it yielding both power and abilities that vastly outstrip SSJB Kaiokenx20 let alone just regular Super Saiyan Blue. In contrast, Merged Zamasu lost to a Super Saiyan Blue and a Super Saiyan Rage Trunks wielding a Spirit Sword.
You can't use those arguments in reverse because we know that Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito are also far above that level of power. Those powers and abilities vastly outstrip SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku, but that's nothing impressive. We already know that Corrupted Fused Zamasu and Vegito Blue also vastly outstrip those powers, because Gowasu said that the only way to defeat Zamasu was to attack him with a power far greater than anything ever used before [referring to Full Power SSB Kaioken]. Which means that Corrupted Fused Zamasu is a foe far greater than SSB Kaioken, like Jiren and Kefla, and thereby Blue Vegito, who could compete with and even overpower Fused Zamasu at times, has got to be exponentially greater too.

So the fact that Jiren could so easily beat SSB Kaioken Goku is not impressive, because we know that Fused Zamasu can do that too. It's the whole reason why they fused in the first place. If SSB Kaioken was enough, they wouldn't have fused into Vegito. Goku ate a Senzu bean and was back at full strength, he could have kept fighting if that was enough. They fused into Vegito because SSB Kaioken Goku is legit fodder to Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

As for Zamasu losing to a SSB and Trunks, well, it was Vegito Blue. He's infinitely stronger than SSB Goku, who was pressuring SS Kefla.
I think it's dishonest just to downplay Kefla primarily because of the form she was using. After all, Trunks was a Super Saiyan 2 during the Zamasu Arc yet held his own quite well against Goku Black and Zamasu who could fend off both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta. Regardless of what anyone else would say on the matter, I think we can agree on that.
I didn't talk only about her form.

I'm also saying that Kefla's fusées are weak. Kale and Caulifla were trashed and almost eliminated by SSG Goku, whereas Goku Black was stated by Gowasu to be the most powerful fighter on the battlefield, thus surpassing even SSB Goku.

SSRosé Goku Black > SSB Goku > SSG Goku > [massive gap] Kale and Caulifla = SS3 Goku

Goku Black could, quite literally and unironically, oneshot Kale and Caulifla.

On top of Goku Black, we have Future Zamasu, who, if we want to truly, disgustingly downplay him, is SS2 level like Caulifla. And we have a Potara boost that should be even higher than Kefla, because while Kale and Caulifla are best friends, Zamasu and Black are literally the same person and it's explicitly mentioned that, as such, their synergy and coordination is perfect.
Naturally, I would agree with you but what muddies things here is how much Goku had evolved during the Tournament. That can play a significant role in how powerful Kale and Caulifa is in comparison to Goku Black and Zamasu.
Is there any statement or proof that shows SSB Goku in the ToP got stronger than in the FT arc? Was Goku even training at all after the FT arc? All I remember were a bunch of filler episodes and then the ToP arc started, and Goku had no time to train due to having to fight in the Exhibition match and recruit the Team.
I can see Zamasu being stronger than the girls and fused zamasu stronger than the fused girls, but not because Black and Zam are suited to each other. Goku and Vegeta got some noteworthy rivals boost and Shin and Kibito who share the same goals and life didn't get much of a boost.

I can see Zamasu being stronger than Cauli and Black stronger than that, this combined with potara being better than dance fusion makes them stronger but it's inspite of their compatibility. In fact it was more strongly noted how and why Kale and Cauli and good fusion partners in the manga as it combines their personality strenghts and offsets the weaknesses.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 09, 2022 6:50 am

TobyS wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 6:42 am I can see Zamasu being stronger than the girls and fused zamasu stronger than the fused girls, but not because Black and Zam are suited to each other. Goku and Vegeta got some noteworthy rivals boost and Shin and Kibito who share the same goals and life didn't get much of a boost.
I was referring to a statement (Yes it's Anime-only btw) where Beerus stated that the fusion between Android 17 and 18 would be ideal, because they are twins, which means that their compatibility would result in an extraordinarily strong fused warrior. In the end they didn't fuse only because Whis pointed out that, if the fused being was eliminated, they'd lose 2 warriors instead of just 1 (very risky).

What is interesting is that Beerus truly considered giving the Potara to the Androids instead of Goku and Vegeta, giving further validity to this rule. Apparently Android 17+18 would be THAT strong, that Beerus would consider him over Vegito.

Based on Beerus' statement, we can safely conclude that Fused Zamasu would have the highest boost imaginable from the "compatibility" of their fusées. Since Goku Black and Zamasu are actually the same person (Goku Black is Zamasu in Goku's body), you can't get more "compatible" than that. You're literally fusing with yourself.

Indeed, it is explicitly stated in ep. 62 that, since Zamasu and Black "started out as the same being" (i.e. they are the same person, just "split" due to time travel occurrences), they are "perfectly in synch".

So, following the logic presented by Beerus, Fused Zamasu should have the highest boost we've ever seen. Since no other fusion was made up by two warriors who are so in sync with one another. Not even Super 17, since one of the Androids is not really 17, it's just a clone made in Hell, and the real 17 was mind-controlled. Fused Zamasu is the only fused being in the franchise whose fusées are literally the same person.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 09, 2022 7:55 am

Goku9001 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:05 am How strong do you think Goku had become from his time fighting Caulifa to the moment where he battled SSJ Kefla? I would definitely agree that there was a substantial increase in power there allowing SSJB Goku using Kaiokenx20 to briefly match an opponent who was as powerful as his Genkidama that he used prior. Then there are also the multiple statements suggesting that SSJ2 Goku was powering up against Caulifa, again in Blue against Kefla, and again using Ultra Instinct Omen in response to Kefla's beastly Super Saiyan 2.
Goku and the Saiyan girls were abusing Saiyan boosts indefinitely, but I’d say his Blue form was a tad behind SS Kefla, explaining why he opted to give Kaioken a shot, but he is probably capable of beating Toppo or even match Berserker Kale in that form. His Blue Kaioken is at best equal to the power SS Kefla acquired after evolving further, so maybe I could agree that he is matching the spirit bomb combo. This is where I have (Zamasu arc) Vegetto Blue, as well. UI Sign probably followed that trend and it was stronger than Goku’s first time usage.

ZombieVito wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:16 am Toppo is not a match for Blue Kaioken.
Toppo is at least a match for the Blue Kaioken version that Goku used to defeat Bergamo, as Great Priest didn’t have any qualms on letting that match follow, whereas he judged Goku vs. Toppo to be escalating too far. Since Goku didn’t use it to its fullest against Bergamo, we don’t know exactly how much of Kaioken he was outputting, but Toppo at least matches the 2-fold version. I doubt he matches the 20-fold version though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon May 09, 2022 1:08 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:53 pm Well, there is that scene where he himself says he's rusty when he got hit by a bullet and got damaged. I actually don't think Goku grew weaker but I also don't think he grew significantly stronger either in between the arcs. At best I have him catching up to Goku Black.

I never understood why people think Goku needed Kaioken to fight Toppo. They never fought and later Vegeta battles evenly with Toppo so he's SSB tier only.
I agree. Goku probably got pretty strong fighting Black and Zamasu, but after that the only time he only had any real fight was with Hit. We even see him begging for Gohan, Roshi and Kuririn to train with him lol.

After their fight Toppo says he’ll go all out and Goku responds by using Kaio-Ken. If he and Toppo were equals wouldn’t Goku just power up as a SSJB?

Also, I wouldn’t say Vegeta only trained for an hour. He trained a undisclosed amount of the time in the Rosat, and while it wasn’t a full day, it must have been several months inside. I don’t think he needs to be 2x Goku though. We just know FP Toppo > SSJB Goku and Goku needed Kaio-Ken to not stay behind.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 6:50 am I was referring to a statement (Yes it's Anime-only btw) where Beerus stated that the fusion between Android 17 and 18 would be ideal, because they are twins, which means that their compatibility would result in an extraordinarily strong fused warrior. In the end they didn't fuse only because Whis pointed out that, if the fused being was eliminated, they'd lose 2 warriors instead of just 1 (very risky).

What is interesting is that Beerus truly considered giving the Potara to the Androids instead of Goku and Vegeta, giving further validity to this rule. Apparently Android 17+18 would be THAT strong, that Beerus would consider him over Vegito.

Based on Beerus' statement, we can safely conclude that Fused Zamasu would have the highest boost imaginable from the "compatibility" of their fusées. Since Goku Black and Zamasu are actually the same person (Goku Black is Zamasu in Goku's body), you can't get more "compatible" than that. You're literally fusing with yourself.

Indeed, it is explicitly stated in ep. 62 that, since Zamasu and Black "started out as the same being" (i.e. they are the same person, just "split" due to time travel occurrences), they are "perfectly in synch".

So, following the logic presented by Beerus, Fused Zamasu should have the highest boost we've ever seen. Since no other fusion was made up by two warriors who are so in sync with one another. Not even Super 17, since one of the Androids is not really 17, it's just a clone made in Hell, and the real 17 was mind-controlled. Fused Zamasu is the only fused being in the franchise whose fusées are literally the same person.
I beg to differ. If anything Black and Zamasu ended up being a poor match: While they had the same spirit, their clashing physiologies ultimately held him back. Because Black was mortal, Zamasu’s immortality started to falter. And because Zamasu wasn’t a Saiyan, his body couldn’t handle Black’s Saiyan boosts and, and Shin and Gowasu pointed out, his body started falling apart.

Toriyama’s original idea was that Merged Zamasu would be weak enough that Goku and Vegeta could still fight him together and his regeneration would be the only problem, and we can see some of this in the series. The Manga had Goku stalemate him by mastering SSJB, and in the anime he gets overwhelmed by Vegeta and Trunks in a beam struggle and gets his face kicked in by Goku. The difference in power between Black and Zamasu probably underwhelmed MZ’s initial power, thus why the Saiyans caught so quickly before he powered up.

The only reason Kefla got so strong was because of her Saiyan physiology, which enabled her to keep improving as she fought Goku. Zamasu tried the same but couldn’t because he’s only half Saiyan.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 am Is there any statement or proof that shows SSB Goku in the ToP got stronger than in the FT arc? Was Goku even training at all after the FT arc? All I remember were a bunch of filler episodes and then the ToP arc started, and Goku had no time to train due to having to fight in the Exhibition match and recruit the Team.
He doesn’t get to train before the ToP, but fighting the girls helped him improve considerably so.

Episode: 113
Time: 14:14-14:36
Context: After they spar on a bit and Goku kicked Caulifla
Goku: "Not yet! I haven't show you my power yet!"
Caulifla: "I won't lose!"
*Both powers up*
Krillin: "Just how far are they going to go?"
Roshi: "There's no telling who's going to win!"
Cabba: "Amazing! I didn't realize Caulifla san had such power!"

Episode: 115
Time: 14:08-14:17
Context: As Goku and Kefla fight each other
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"
Champa: "Are they trying to break the fighting stage?!"
U6 Kaioshin: "Amazing!"
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon May 09, 2022 2:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:08 pm I beg to differ. If anything Black and Zamasu ended up being a poor match: While they had the same spirit, their clashing physiologies ultimately held him back. Because Black was mortal, Zamasu’s immortality started to falter. And because Zamasu wasn’t a Saiyan, his body couldn’t handle Black’s Saiyan boosts and, and Shin and Gowasu pointed out, his body started falling apart.
The problem was Black, not Zamasu. It's never said anywhere that Zamasu's body couldn't handle the Saiyan boosts, that's headcanon. The problem is that Black had a mortal body which interfered with Zamasu's immortal regeneration. That's why his body was falling apart. Zamasu's immortal regeneration kicked in but couldn't regenerate the mortal half of the body (because Black's body never had regeneration), that caused an instability that made his body fall apart.

Regardless, how are they a "poor match" when they are literally, factually the same person? Android 17 and 18 would have been such a great match that Beerus didn't even suggest Vegito, but Zamasu and Zamasu wouldn't be an ideal fusion?
The only reason Kefla got so strong was because of her Saiyan physiology, which enabled her to keep improving as she fought Goku. Zamasu tried the same but couldn’t because he’s only half Saiyan.
Zamasu got a boost from hitting himself (like Black in the previous episode) and he jumped to a level of power that was far beyond anything "ever used before" (as per Gowasu's admission) and pressured even Vegito Blue.
Episode: 113
Time: 14:14-14:36
Context: After they spar on a bit and Goku kicked Caulifla
Goku: "Not yet! I haven't show you my power yet!"
Caulifla: "I won't lose!"
*Both powers up*
Krillin: "Just how far are they going to go?"
Roshi: "There's no telling who's going to win!"
Cabba: "Amazing! I didn't realize Caulifla san had such power!"
How does this prove that ToP arc SSB Goku > FT arc SSB Goku? All he's saying here is that he was going to use more power to fight Caulifla (since he was obviously suppressing himself).
Episode: 115
Time: 14:08-14:17
Context: As Goku and Kefla fight each other
Whis: "Their energy is getting even stronger."
Beerus: "Just how far are they going to go?!"
Champa: "Are they trying to break the fighting stage?!"
U6 Kaioshin: "Amazing!"
Same as the above. Goku's energy is "getting stronger" only because he's using a larger % of his power. This doesn't prove that he's stronger than in his fight against Fused Zamasu where, as a reminder, he used "full power" (explicitly stated by him to be going full power) to the point of breaking his entire body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 09, 2022 2:27 pm

Doesn't Goku being able to steadily use KKx20 like a boss, without anybody even noticing it, show that he has improved at least beyond his FT arc, where he used KK for an emergency only?

I'm not sure how much stronger that would make him, but his body sure is more apt than it was before.
Although, how he got to that point is beyond me, because IIRC he did not do any serious training(Aside of trying to get the hang on UI), so Toei being Toei.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 09, 2022 3:43 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:08 pm Also, I wouldn’t say Vegeta only trained for an hour. He trained a undisclosed amount of the time in the Rosat, and while it wasn’t a full day, it must have been several months inside. I don’t think he needs to be 2x Goku though. We just know FP Toppo > SSJB Goku and Goku needed Kaio-Ken to not stay behind.
He trained for around 2 hrs. At the end of the episode where he enters the RoSaT there's only 4 hrs left until the tournament and the next episode it is said there's less than 3 hrs to go right before Vegeta exists it.

At max he trained for a month inside the RoSaT.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 09, 2022 8:13 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:27 pm Although, how he got to that point is beyond me, because IIRC he did not do any serious training(Aside of trying to get the hang on UI), so Toei being Toei.
He trained with Whis in the gravity chamber, probably on 150G like Vegeta, so that method probably made his body tougher. This is how he trained to perform higher levels of Kaioken against Freeza as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue May 10, 2022 1:47 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 am You can't use those arguments in reverse because we know that Fused Zamasu and Blue Vegito are also far above that level of power. Those powers and abilities vastly outstrip SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku, but that's nothing impressive. We already know that Corrupted Fused Zamasu and Vegito Blue also vastly outstrip those powers, because Gowasu said that the only way to defeat Zamasu was to attack him with a power far greater than anything ever used before [referring to Full Power SSB Kaioken]. Which means that Corrupted Fused Zamasu is a foe far greater than SSB Kaioken, like Jiren and Kefla, and thereby Blue Vegito, who could compete with and even overpower Fused Zamasu at times, has got to be exponentially greater too.

So the fact that Jiren could so easily beat SSB Kaioken Goku is not impressive, because we know that Fused Zamasu can do that too. It's the whole reason why they fused in the first place. If SSB Kaioken was enough, they wouldn't have fused into Vegito. Goku ate a Senzu bean and was back at full strength, he could have kept fighting if that was enough. They fused into Vegito because SSB Kaioken Goku is legit fodder to Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

As for Zamasu losing to a SSB and Trunks, well, it was Vegito Blue. He's infinitely stronger than SSB Goku, who was pressuring SS Kefla.
I don't take issue with any of that. It should be obvious to anyone that Vegetto Blue and Corrupted Fused Zamasu vastly outstrip SSJB Kaioken x20 Goku. Whether that means Merged Zamasu is above Suppressed Jiren and SSJ2 Kefla is up for debate. I don't think the narrative supports Suppressed Jiren being stronger than Merged Zamasu. That doesn't mean the opposite is suggested in which Suppressed Jiren is weaker than Merged Zamasu but I think we can agree that the narrative is referencing Jiren's unseen power when it talks about him being the strongest foe ever encounted.

I've been giving this some thought however. If Merged Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Trunks' Spirit Sword which was comprised of all of the survivors in his timeline, then it's possible that SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku's Genkidama reached the level of Vegetto Blue given that it contains energy from some of the multiverse' strongest fighters. Jiren effortlessly pushed back that attack with a single glare. But regardless, the caveat to all of this is Hit somehow contending with someone and landing a decisive blow on someone strongest than Vegetto Blue without anyone aiding him in getting that opening.

I think it's debatable. If one were to take this route, then Kefla is definitively above Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu. I think Kale is definitely stronger than SSJR Goku Black especially by the time she masters her Super Saiyan form but Caulifa shouldn't be as powerful as SSJB Vegeta (FT). However, her Super Saiyan 2 form resulted in a mutated, green haired Super Saiyan much like what Broly had become and that was enough to go from matching Super Gogeta to giving Gogeta Blue a fairly decent fight.

Regardless, I mostly took issue with what you said here.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Indeed, but logically, why should Kefla even remotely be comparable to Vegito or Gogeta? I mean, her strongest form is SS2.
And here.
SupremeKai25 wrote: How is it possible that Zamasu and Vegito, whose fusées individually could solo Kale and Caulifla (Black and Goku), and who are in the top forms we have seen up to that point (SSB and SSRosée vs. the pathetic SS2 that stopped being relevant in the Cell saga), how is it possible that they are that much weaker than Kefla?
Which are obviously jabs to discredit Kefla and her fusees based on her form hence why I spun that same argument in reverse. Besides, I don't this argument flies for the examples I presented on top of Kale being a special case and her Super Saiyan 2 being represented as a mutated form in the same light as Broly. Whatever bias you have against them is unfounded. There is no need to mention "pathetic SSJ2 form" because Kefla's SSJ2 form is clearly not a standard Super Saiyan 2 and a forms' power varies across different users clearly.

I didn't talk only about her form.

I'm also saying that Kefla's fusées are weak. Kale and Caulifla were trashed and almost eliminated by SSG Goku, whereas Goku Black was stated by Gowasu to be the most powerful fighter on the battlefield, thus surpassing even SSB Goku.

SSRosé Goku Black > SSB Goku > SSG Goku > [massive gap] Kale and Caulifla = SS3 Goku

Goku Black could, quite literally and unironically, oneshot Kale and Caulifla.

On top of Goku Black, we have Future Zamasu, who, if we want to truly, disgustingly downplay him, is SS2 level like Caulifla. And we have a Potara boost that should be even higher than Kefla, because while Kale and Caulifla are best friends, Zamasu and Black are literally the same person and it's explicitly mentioned that, as such, their synergy and coordination is perfect.
Goku Black isn't one-shotting Kale. The anime is consistent with the manga's representation of Kale in which she rose to Blue tier and had grown even stronger much like how she does in the anime through mastering her form. Goku Black should be irrelevant at this point given how much Goku and Vegeta matured when they were battling Merged Zamasu. Despite being weaker, there are numerous statements suggesting that they would shatter their limits on top of them progressively pushing back stronger attacks from Merged Zamasu which were already established to be much greater than anything Goku Black can do.

I don't doubt that Caulifa is inferior to SSJB Vegeta.
Is there any statement or proof that shows SSB Goku in the ToP got stronger than in the FT arc? Was Goku even training at all after the FT arc? All I remember were a bunch of filler episodes and then the ToP arc started, and Goku had no time to train due to having to fight in the Exhibition match and recruit the Team.
We have statements by Whis and the Z Senshi confirming that SSJ2 Goku was evolving against Caulifa, again in Blue against SSJ Kefla, and again while using Ultra Instinct Omen in response to Kefla's growing power. In fact, I think Kefla's growth in power makes this unpredictable. Because while Kale and Caulifa's powers were clearly established prior to fusion, their prior powers aren't necessarily 100% representative of Kefla's strength given that she was rapidly evolving.

If you want something definitive, SSJB Vegeta was capable of fighting Toppo which Goku required Kaioken x10 initially when battling him. Goku required Super Saiyan Blue to fight Berserker Kale and yet only needed Super Saiyan God to have a decisive edge on Mastered SSJ Kale who is much stronger than Berserker Kale. Goku also held his own against Kale as a Super Saiyan 2 and faltered once Caulifa got involved. We are later told that SSJ Kefla was on par with the ToP Genkidama and SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku matched that power.

Then, factor in the statements of SSJ2 Goku growing stronger, Blue Goku growing stronger, and UI Omen Goku growing stronger and it's pretty cut and dry that Goku and Vegeta are much stronger as of episode 116 than they were at the start of the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue May 10, 2022 2:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:55 am Goku and the Saiyan girls were abusing Saiyan boosts indefinitely, but I’d say his Blue form was a tad behind SS Kefla, explaining why he opted to give Kaioken a shot, but he is probably capable of beating Toppo or even match Berserker Kale in that form. His Blue Kaioken is at best equal to the power SS Kefla acquired after evolving further, so maybe I could agree that he is matching the spirit bomb combo. This is where I have (Zamasu arc) Vegetto Blue, as well. UI Sign probably followed that trend and it was stronger than Goku’s first time usage.
I would wager that Blue Kaiokenx20 Goku was relatively equal to SSJ Kefla overall given the context of the situation. Champa makes it clear once Goku finally goes Blue that SSJ Kefla could beat Goku because his stamina hadn't fully recovered. He doesn't assert Kefla as the superior fighter and there's no concrete information placing Kefla as the superior fighter during their battle. Everyone in the audience seemed to be concerned of Goku's stamina rather than his lack of power. Beerus even states that Goku needed to end the fight immediately due to his lack of stamina. At least for me, that suggests that Blue Kaioken Goku was relatively close to SSJ Kefla but ultimately lost rather quickly due to rushing the fight which caused him to overlook Kefla's strategy.

But yes, holding his own in any capacity against someone who rivaled his Genkidama seems to suggest that he grew significantly stronger and I agree with your assessment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 10, 2022 6:51 am

Goku9001 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:47 am I've been giving this some thought however. If Merged Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Trunks' Spirit Sword which was comprised of all of the survivors in his timeline
That he did, but there are two things to note:

1) To be fair, it's stated that he was falling apart "physically" and "mentally". So he wasn't in his prime anymore. Would Trunks have beaten Zamasu if Vegito hadn't been weakening him, both physically (with his punches/kicks) and mentally (with his defiance and insults)? I doubt that.

2) And also, Zamasu limited himself to fighting Trunks with his Ki sword. Theoretically, there was nothing stopping Zamasu from just flying away and bombarding Trunks with ki blasts so that he couldn't reach him. There was no reason why Zamasu couldn't just nuke Trunks with a Holy Wrath, the same attack that would have overwhelmed Trunks in a 1v1 beam struggle. So would Trunks have defeated Zamasu, if Zamasu didn't want to just fight him in a sword battle? Again I doubt it.

That's why it's such a big deal that Zamasu was falling apart not just physically, but also mentally. He was completely clouded by rage, I believe Vegito at one point even noted how he was consumed by rage. He wasn't thinking logically and so this played a big part in his defeat.

That's why you can't use the reverse argument, you can't discredit Zamasu by saying that he lost to Trunks because Trunks just came in to deal the final blow, it wasn't really a fight, it was Trunks literally just showing up at the end of the Zamasu vs. Vegito Blue fight to finish it after 99% of the work had already been done by Vegito.
then it's possible that SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku's Genkidama reached the level of Vegetto Blue
This to me is impossible.

That Spirit Bomb is comprised of the energies of:

- Frieza
- Gohan
- 17
- 18
- Krillin
- Piccolo
- Master Roshi
- Tien

The only 3 people here who are not fodder are Frieza, Gohan, and 17.

For us to argue that the Spirit Bomb is = Vegito Blue, you'd have to believe that Frieza, Gohan, and 17, along with SSB Kaioken Goku, would be able to defeat Vegito Blue. I find that impossible to believe honestly. That would make Anilaza even stronger than Vegito Blue, since he was fighting those 3 guys plus Goku and Vegeta, and I'm sure no one believes Anilaza > Vegito Blue.

Last I checked, the general consensus was that Fused Zamasu > Anilaza, after all.
, then Kefla is definitively above Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu
But how?

To be honest, I could just argue in favour of Vegito Blue, since F. Zamasu moves up the power ladder (or down) with Vegito, since they were somewhat relative for portions of the fight.

So how can Kefla be stronger than Vegito Blue? Even if we want to argue that Berserk Kale is equal to SSB Goku, in the end Kale fused when she had controlled her Berserk form and, indeed, we see that when Kefla bulks up, she doesn't go insane like Kale did. The "controlled" Kale was no match for SSG Goku even with Caulifla's help.

Plus, narrative-wise, shouldn't the Controlled Kale be stronger than when she went Berserk? I mean, in an anime, when a given character masters or learns to control a certain form without going insane, it means they have reached an even greater level of power. So we are indeed led to believe that Kale was at her strongest, when she was beaten in a 1v2 by SSG Goku...

Btw, I haven't seen those episodes in years, but the only reason why Berserk Kale has hype is because she walked through a kamehameha from SSB Goku, right? I remember people were quite mad when that aired, but isn't it obvious that Goku was suppressing himself massively? Like he was doing vs. Krillin and Android 17 in their sparring sessions? He was sparring with the Saiyan girls and testing their strength, after all.
I think Kale is definitely stronger than SSJR Goku Black especially by the time she masters her Super Saiyan form
Is there a reason why you think this? A Toei producer said that Goku Black was the "Strongest character except for Beerus" (and Whis, I'd assume), this was the statement and it was translated as I just told you:

Image

So we know that by statement and hype Goku Black is stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. He is the strongest fighter at the time, except for Beerus and Whis. This is reiterated in the show itself by Gowasu, who called Goku Black "The Most Powerful".

How is Goku Black losing to Kale? Let's not argue Berserk Kale, because in the end she wasn't Berserk when she fused. How is he losing to someone who was beaten by SSG Goku in a 1v2?
"pathetic SSJ2 form"
I mean, am I wrong ? I'll admit that I'm somewhat salty that SS2 Kefla has such feats (I always found it dumb that she could challenge ULTRA INSTINCT, the manga was more believable as far as Kefla is concerned), but when was the last time SS2 was relevant? The early Buu arc? It's long been surpassed.

The bottom line here is that, if a SS2 fusion can pressure UI Goku, then so can a SSB fusion and a SSRosé fusion. And so Vegito and Zamasu aren't surpassed by Suppressed Jiren and the Initial UI Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:16 pm The problem was Black, not Zamasu. It's never said anywhere that Zamasu's body couldn't handle the Saiyan boosts, that's headcanon. The problem is that Black had a mortal body which interfered with Zamasu's immortal regeneration. That's why his body was falling apart. Zamasu's immortal regeneration kicked in but couldn't regenerate the mortal half of the body (because Black's body never had regeneration), that caused an instability that made his body fall apart.
Zamasu literally opted to steal Goku’s body because he couldn’t get that strong on his own, ergo his body wouldn’t handle such power.
Zamasu got a boost from hitting himself (like Black in the previous episode) and he jumped to a level of power that was far beyond anything "ever used before" (as per Gowasu's admission) and pressured even Vegito Blue.
And then he started breaking down and needing to buff up to keep with Vegetto, while Kefla continued to get stronger and had no limit in sight.

How does this prove that ToP arc SSB Goku > FT arc SSB Goku? All he's saying here is that he was going to use more power to fight Caulifla (since he was obviously suppressing himself).
It’s a bit more obvious in the context of the fight. Not only he and Caulifla had already said they’d be going all out and powered up minutes before, but Kuririn and Cabba are pretty taken aback at how strong Goku and Caba are getting. Caulifla also said she felt she was “bubbling with power”, same thing Kefla would go on to say when powering up into SSJ2. Goku also says he’s impressed at how much better Caulifla is getting.
Same as the above. Goku's energy is "getting stronger" only because he's using a larger % of his power. This doesn't prove that he's stronger than in his fight against Fused Zamasu where, as a reminder, he used "full power" (explicitly stated by him to be going full power) to the point of breaking his entire body.
I’d say this is even more straight forward than the examples vs Caulifla. Goku and Caulifla said they’d be going all out and drew their powers before fighting, their Ki’s rising midfight is something else entirely coming out. I can see a point for Goku holding back to save stamina, he did avoid using Kaio-Ken for a bit, but the fact he ended up matching Kefla who was as strong as the Genki-Dama shows he’s improved in this fight.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:51 am Is there a reason why you think this? A Toei producer said that Goku Black was the "Strongest character except for Beerus" (and Whis, I'd assume), this was the statement and it was translated as I just told you:
This is before the ToP was even conceived though. Kale didn’t even exist back then.
ZombieVito wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:43 pm He trained for around 2 hrs. At the end of the episode where he enters the RoSaT there's only 4 hrs left until the tournament and the next episode it is said there's less than 3 hrs to go right before Vegeta exists it.

At max he trained for a month inside the RoSaT.
It’s not that big of a power up so I think that’s enough time. Not like the series is ever consistent with training gains anyway.

Going by your numbers, if SSJB Goku is a 36 then I’d say Vegeta and Toppo are like, 40-45. Nothing too big. In fact, why is Vegeta actually below Goku?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 10, 2022 7:32 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 pm It’s not that big of a power up so I think that’s enough time. Not like the series is ever consistent with training gains anyway.

Going by your numbers, if SSJB Goku is a 36 then I’d say Vegeta and Toppo are like, 40-45. Nothing too big. In fact, why is Vegeta actually below Goku?
Because official previews says so.

Goku and Freeza are tied for #1 spot of U7. Vegeta is below them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue May 10, 2022 8:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:51 am That he did, but there are two things to note:

1) To be fair, it's stated that he was falling apart "physically" and "mentally". So he wasn't in his prime anymore. Would Trunks have beaten Zamasu if Vegito hadn't been weakening him, both physically (with his punches/kicks) and mentally (with his defiance and insults)? I doubt that.

2) And also, Zamasu limited himself to fighting Trunks with his Ki sword. Theoretically, there was nothing stopping Zamasu from just flying away and bombarding Trunks with ki blasts so that he couldn't reach him. There was no reason why Zamasu couldn't just nuke Trunks with a Holy Wrath, the same attack that would have overwhelmed Trunks in a 1v1 beam struggle. So would Trunks have defeated Zamasu, if Zamasu didn't want to just fight him in a sword battle? Again I doubt it.

That's why it's such a big deal that Zamasu was falling apart not just physically, but also mentally. He was completely clouded by rage, I believe Vegito at one point even noted how he was consumed by rage. He wasn't thinking logically and so this played a big part in his defeat.

That's why you can't use the reverse argument, you can't discredit Zamasu by saying that he lost to Trunks because Trunks just came in to deal the final blow, it wasn't really a fight, it was Trunks literally just showing up at the end of the Zamasu vs. Vegito Blue fight to finish it after 99% of the work had already been done by Vegito.
You strictly undermined Kefla's battle power because of the form she was using compared to Merged Zamasu hence my argument. That's why we should analyze the power of the user respectively rather than using their forms a reference.

What I will say to this is that Merged Zamasu was already demented after having his halo shattered by Blue Kaioken Goku. The rage he experienced from this actually mutated him and made him grow stronger. Despite losing his sanity, his power eventually grew strong enough to potentially envelop the entire multiverse along with the other parallel worlds. I don't think mindset really serves to hinder Merged Zamasu. Thanks to Goku Black's physiology, that rage actually made him stronger.

I don't see what using a ki blade has anything to do with it. It's one of Goku Black's strongest techniques after all.
This to me is impossible.

That Spirit Bomb is comprised of the energies of:

- Frieza
- Gohan
- 17
- 18
- Krillin
- Piccolo
- Master Roshi
- Tien

The only 3 people here who are not fodder are Frieza, Gohan, and 17.

For us to argue that the Spirit Bomb is = Vegito Blue, you'd have to believe that Frieza, Gohan, and 17, along with SSB Kaioken Goku, would be able to defeat Vegito Blue. I find that impossible to believe honestly. That would make Anilaza even stronger than Vegito Blue, since he was fighting those 3 guys plus Goku and Vegeta, and I'm sure no one believes Anilaza > Vegito Blue.

Last I checked, the general consensus was that Fused Zamasu > Anilaza, after all.
According to that logic, the Genkidama would be inferior to Blue Kaiokenx20 Goku. Trunks' Spirit Sword was still powerful enough to penetrate Merged Zamasu's body which shouldn't have been possible given the energy he obtained in order to use it, but here we are. It was also stated that the clash between Goku's Genkidama and Jiren's energy caused the energy to increase until it could no longer handle it. That energy dispersed is explicitly what Kefla was compared to so that Genkidama could be even stronger than you'd think.

But how?

To be honest, I could just argue in favour of Vegito Blue, since F. Zamasu moves up the power ladder (or down) with Vegito, since they were somewhat relative for portions of the fight.

So how can Kefla be stronger than Vegito Blue? Even if we want to argue that Berserk Kale is equal to SSB Goku, in the end Kale fused when she had controlled her Berserk form and, indeed, we see that when Kefla bulks up, she doesn't go insane like Kale did. The "controlled" Kale was no match for SSG Goku even with Caulifla's help.

Plus, narrative-wise, shouldn't the Controlled Kale be stronger than when she went Berserk? I mean, in an anime, when a given character masters or learns to control a certain form without going insane, it means they have reached an even greater level of power. So we are indeed led to believe that Kale was at her strongest, when she was beaten in a 1v2 by SSG Goku...

Btw, I haven't seen those episodes in years, but the only reason why Berserk Kale has hype is because she walked through a kamehameha from SSB Goku, right? I remember people were quite mad when that aired, but isn't it obvious that Goku was suppressing himself massively? Like he was doing vs. Krillin and Android 17 in their sparring sessions? He was sparring with the Saiyan girls and testing their strength, after all.
There's a clear disconnect here. Being inferior to SSJG Goku is irrelevant when Goku was explicitly stated to be experiencing Saiyan boosts. Berserker Kale was initially a threat to Blue Goku, mastered her FPSSJ form, and was explicitly stated to have gotten much stronger from doing so. The fact that SSJG Goku could accomplish this feat on top of the various statements that clearly states that Goku was growing stronger throughout the fight, in addition to Blue Kaiokenx20 Goku being on par with the Genkidama combo to boot, means that Goku was much stronger. Referencing the form won't do you any good here. Have you considered that SSJG Goku was much stronger than Blue Goku at the start of the tournament?
I think Kale is definitely stronger than SSJR Goku Black especially by the time she masters her Super Saiyan form

Is there a reason why you think this? A Toei producer said that Goku Black was the "Strongest character except for Beerus" (and Whis, I'd assume), this was the statement and it was translated as I just told you:

Image

So we know that by statement and hype Goku Black is stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta. He is the strongest fighter at the time, except for Beerus and Whis. This is reiterated in the show itself by Gowasu, who called Goku Black "The Most Powerful".

How is Goku Black losing to Kale? Let's not argue Berserk Kale, because in the end she wasn't Berserk when she fused. How is he losing to someone who was beaten by SSG Goku in a 1v2?
That doesn't make sense. Kale was written in at around the same time as Jiren and Toppo and they are blatantly stronger than Goku Black. That statement was clearly written before the Tournament of Power. Otherwise, that statement is contradicted by the source material and shouldn't be considered.

Berserker Kale is much weaker than Mastered Kale. This was stated and I addressed the dishonest SSJG comparison you are trying to make here. Goku simply got stronger, as he always does.
"pathetic SSJ2 form"

I mean, am I wrong ? I'll admit that I'm somewhat salty that SS2 Kefla has such feats (I always found it dumb that she could challenge ULTRA INSTINCT, the manga was more believable as far as Kefla is concerned), but when was the last time SS2 was relevant? The early Buu arc? It's long been surpassed.

The bottom line here is that, if a SS2 fusion can pressure UI Goku, then so can a SSB fusion and a SSRosé fusion. And so Vegito and Zamasu aren't surpassed by Suppressed Jiren and the Initial UI Goku.
The form is irrelevant here and DBS Broly should make that very clear. I don't think we need to go into specifics here. Aside from that, Goku's Super Saiyan 2 was explicitly compared to a God of Destruction. That power is what drove Zamasu towards pursuing Goku's body as he recognized it to be far beyond the power of a mortal. Trunks' Super Saiyan 2 eventually evolved enabling him to battle Goku Black initially and Future Zamasu who could battle both Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta fairly well. On top of that, Goku's Super Saiyan 2 was a power that had Goku Black gushing with excitement despite having the power of a Saiyan Beyond God. That experience powered up Goku Black immensely and eventually led to Super Saiyan Rose.

It's not a pathetic form since the power depends on the user but we all know this. You know this. The Super Saiyan 2 fusion in question was comprised of Kale and Caulifa, the former of which possesses a unique SSJ form similar to Broly's which allowed Broly to fight against a Blue fusion. This resulted in a form that is blatantly shown to embody those characteristics as she retains Kale's green hair. The other fusee is Caulifa whose Super Saiyan 2 evolved indefinitely when battling SSJ2 Goku. Her Super Saiyan 2 as well as Goku's is no longer comparable to what a Super Saiyan 2 would have been capable of back in the FT arc. You need something more definitive that places Caulifa as such a heavy burden that would drastically reduce the power of Kefla. Champa's statement seems to suggest the opposite. Kefla was far stronger than he expected despite knowing what the potaras were capable of.

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