Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 12, 2022 12:59 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:55 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:24 am So, do you think Future Trunks with Spirit Sword could defeat Goku using Spirit Bomb in conjunction with Blue Kaioken x20?
If Trunks somehow gets a hit on Goku?

Yes. He's going to cut Goku in half and destroy him like he did with Fused Zamasu. Of course Goku would have to stand still/restrict himself to close quarter combat like Zamasu was doing.

Is this more far-fetched than a SS2 fusion being above a SSB fusion? I don't think so.

I'm not sure why people here are making fun of Trunks and acting like Zamasu losing to him is somehow an anti-feat, but we are led to believe that Trunks' attack was insanely strong. Very powerful. Even Goku commented on how amazing he was. So I see 99.9% of the ToP getting oneshot by that attack if they get hit by it at least once (so for example if we were to restrict them only to physical attacks, like Zamasu was), and that includes guys like 17, Frieza, and Gohan.
You missed the point of the question. Goku is not going to approach Trunks directly in this scenario. It’s a question about which move would prevail. Do you think Trunks with that power could cancel the Spirit Bomb that Goku threw at Jiren? None is making fun of Trunks or Zamasu here, it’s a genuine question.

The issue with SS2 Kefla being above SSB Vegetto is easily explainable. Not only she is a fusion of Broly and Goku’s counterparts, but Vegetto here is made of weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. It’s not simply a matter of comparing SS2 and SSB here, like you are trying to defend. What about going overboard and make LSS Broly on his own give SSB Gogeta a run for his money?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 12, 2022 1:04 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:30 pm I think you’re greatly overestimating this feat. First off, Goku didn’t break every bone on his body, he just broke his arms and could still use his legs. He didn’t even need to use Kaio-Ken in the Beam Struggle, and Kefla forcing him into a transformation he couldn’t use at will is a far more impressive feat.
Yes he did? Goku literally broke his legs after his arms and plummeted to the ground, he even reverted back to Base form. And unlike vs. Kefla, he wasn't back up 2 seconds later; he tried to get up, but couldn't do it, he could barely move at all and Shin even needed to step in to help him move, like you can see at the start of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPOOuV7RSwU

And sure, he didn't need to use Kaioken in the beam struggle, but he still needed to use it to break off of Fused Zamasu's grip (Zamasu had incapacitated him and was fucking up his ankle).

Also, fusing is also something that Goku and Vegeta never do, if they can avoid it at all cost. So Kefla making him use a technique he normally wouldn't use doesn't give her better hype than Zamasu.
Ironically, that scene portrays Goku as Zamasu’s superior. After deflecting the blast he proceeds to kick his face in without Kaio-Ken, and when he used it Zamasu probably would’ve died if he weren’t immortal.
I mean, if we're using "ifs" then Kefla would be fodder if she wasn't a Saiyan, this is not really relevant. Yeah, Zamasu would obviously be weaker if he wasn't Immortal... but he is, and so that's part of his strength and will be a factor in any VS battle.

Plus, how would Zamasu die just from a simple kick to the face? He literally just kicked his face, he didn't like blow his face up like Vegito did...
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:59 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:55 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:24 am So, do you think Future Trunks with Spirit Sword could defeat Goku using Spirit Bomb in conjunction with Blue Kaioken x20?
If Trunks somehow gets a hit on Goku?

Yes. He's going to cut Goku in half and destroy him like he did with Fused Zamasu. Of course Goku would have to stand still/restrict himself to close quarter combat like Zamasu was doing.

Is this more far-fetched than a SS2 fusion being above a SSB fusion? I don't think so.

I'm not sure why people here are making fun of Trunks and acting like Zamasu losing to him is somehow an anti-feat, but we are led to believe that Trunks' attack was insanely strong. Very powerful. Even Goku commented on how amazing he was. So I see 99.9% of the ToP getting oneshot by that attack if they get hit by it at least once (so for example if we were to restrict them only to physical attacks, like Zamasu was), and that includes guys like 17, Frieza, and Gohan.
You missed the point of the question. Goku is not going to approach Trunks directly in this scenario. It’s a question about which move would prevail. Do you think Trunks with that power could cancel the Spirit Bomb that Goku threw at Jiren? None is making fun of Trunks or Zamasu here, it’s a genuine question.
Maybe? Trunks absorbed into his sword a Spirit Bomb that consisted of Goku's and Vegeta's energies plus the energies of every living organism on Earth. Meanwhile the Spirit Bomb at the ToP was made of the energies of just 8 people (the U7 team minus Goku and Vegeta). Does the Spirit Bomb Goku made really have more hype than the one Trunks made?
The issue with SS2 Kefla being above SSB Vegetto is easily explainable. Not only she is a fusion of Broly and Goku’s counterparts, but Vegetto here is made of weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. It’s not simply a matter of comparing SS2 and SSB here, like you are trying to defend. What about going overboard and make LSS Broly on his own give SSB Gogeta a run for his money?
There's no conclusive/clear evidence that Goku and Vegeta made any significant gains between the end of FT arc and the ToP arc so I don't know why you're taking for granted that they're weaker.

Also Kale is Broly's counterpart only in personality. Broly quickly became a threat beyond SSG, meanwhile Kale at her peak was beaten by SSG in a 1v2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 12, 2022 1:40 pm

Remember Goku didn’t merely use the Spirit Bomb but he added his own strength into it, and he went past Kaioken 20-fold to push it forward. Do you think Trunks could handle this?

Also, I consider Goku and Vegeta’s training alone is enough evidence for me to take it for granted that they are much stronger. But if that isn’t for you, there is no problem. I go a little more in-depth in the previous posts, if you want to understand my position, specially about Kale’s full power being greater than regular SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 12, 2022 1:49 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:30 pm Power levels aren’t the problem though. Being a rival means you can fight someone fairly well, just like Freeza did to Goku and a Saibaman did with Yamcha. Gohan and 17 together weren’t doing anything whatsoever.
I watched the fight again and well, they never fight Toppo together exactly (it's always one at a time and the other supports from afar) and 17 even points out that they suck at fighting together since they have never done it before.

I see no issue with my numbers and how the fight happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu May 12, 2022 3:15 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am Fused Zamasu is the only one who pushed Goku to literally break his body btw, why do people here ignore this? Against Fused Zamasu, Goku literally used his full power and pushed himself so far that he broke his arms and legs. After the fight, Goku plummeted to the ground and literally couldn't move his body anymore.

He was never pushed this far in SSB Kaioken by Kefla or Toppo or even Suppressed Jiren. Fused Zamasu is therefore the only character who pressured a full power Goku so hard that he shattered every bone in his body and couldn't move anymore until eating a senzu bean.
Because his full power and limits are way beyond what they were against Fused Zamasu.

I doubt we are led to believe that Goku mustered more power using Super Saiyan Blue than the two instances where he used Ultra Instinct Omen leading up to his fight with Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:00 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 3:15 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am Fused Zamasu is the only one who pushed Goku to literally break his body btw, why do people here ignore this? Against Fused Zamasu, Goku literally used his full power and pushed himself so far that he broke his arms and legs. After the fight, Goku plummeted to the ground and literally couldn't move his body anymore.

He was never pushed this far in SSB Kaioken by Kefla or Toppo or even Suppressed Jiren. Fused Zamasu is therefore the only character who pressured a full power Goku so hard that he shattered every bone in his body and couldn't move anymore until eating a senzu bean.
Because his full power and limits are way beyond what they were against Fused Zamasu.

I doubt we are led to believe that Goku mustered more power using Super Saiyan Blue than the two instances where he used Ultra Instinct Omen leading up to his fight with Jiren.
This has been repeated here but has yet to be proven btw.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Goku got any meaningful boost in his SSB form after the end of the FT arc.

If Goku got a boost in his SSB form that somehow made him stronger than the previous arc's Main/Final Villain, you don't think that it would have been stated clearly and concisely?

On the contrary, the fact that the writers' only idea for Goku to grow stronger was to literally introduce a new level of power/technique altogether, makes it obvious that he already reached the limits of SSB. When he used full power against Fused Zamasu, and shattered his body in the process.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:00 pm
This has been repeated here but has yet to be proven btw.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Goku got any meaningful boost in his SSB form after the end of the FT arc.

If Goku got a boost in his SSB form that somehow made him stronger than the previous arc's Main/Final Villain, you don't think that it would have been stated clearly and concisely?

On the contrary, the fact that the writers' only idea for Goku to grow stronger was to literally introduce a new level of power/technique altogether, makes it obvious that he already reached the limits of SSB. When he used full power against Fused Zamasu, and shattered his body in the process.
I think the evidence speaks for itself with Goku has access to Blue Kaioken x10 which makes him stronger than Goku Black given that Jiren was presented as a new benchmark for Goku's highest level of power to overcome. It doesn't need to explicitly be stated when the narrative already prepares for Goku to battle even stronger opponents.

On the contrary, we are constantly told that Goku was shattering his limits as a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Blue. His Super Saiyan Blue also developed enough to warrant the release of Jiren's "overwhelming" power that vastly outstrips anything Toppo would be capable of. In fact, that same power warranted respect from Belmod and concern from Marcarita. There's enough evidence to show that Goku's limits had not only increased, but that he was shattering those limits. The example you provided doesn't hold any merit since Ultra Instinct Omen pushes his body's limits far beyond what Blue let alone what Blue Kaioken x20 would demand from his body. Despite that, his body didn't give out after unleashing a Full Powered KHH on Kefla.

You're narrowing on only one specific point while failing to take into account the big picture.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:25 pm I think the evidence speaks for itself with Goku has access to Blue Kaioken x10 which makes him stronger than Goku Black
No it doesn't, Gowasu stated that Goku Black was the most powerful fighter and he saw Goku use SSB Kaioken x10 against Hit on Godtube. The Toei producer also stated that Goku Black is the most powerful character bar Beerus and fusions, which confirms that Goku Black is stronger than SSB Kaiokenx10 and Hit.

Find me any clear, concise, and conclusive statement like the two above that clearly states Goku got much stronger. Until then it remains conjecture. If a Shonen wants to imply the MC got stronger, they'd have someone clearly and simply state it. Not use vague generic hype lines like "Oh, Goku and Kefla are using more power, they are becoming stronger, their aura is rising!" which can just mean that Goku is using a larger % of his power.
given that Jiren was presented as a new benchmark for Goku's highest level of power to overcome. It doesn't need to explicitly be stated when the narrative already prepares for Goku to battle even stronger opponents.
And the narrative also gave Goku a new form with which to battle Jiren, while his SSB Kaioken form was fodder to him.

The narrative also had Goku fuse with Vegeta to fight Zamasu instead of trying to get stronger in SSB like he did in the manga. I'd say the implications are obvious. While SSB wasn't perfected yet in the manga, which is why Toyotaro had Goku figure it out during his solo fight with Fused Zamasu; SSB was already perfected in the anime, which is why Toei had Goku fuse with Vegeta to fight Fused Zamasu, with even Gowasu noting that Zamasu is beyond anything Goku and Vegeta ever used before (including SSB Kaiokenx10).
On the contrary, we are constantly told that Goku was shattering his limits as a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Blue
When was this said btw?

The only thing I remember is Vegeta giving his speech about Saiyans breaking their limits and he was obviously referring to Goku mastering Ultra Instinct. Since, as he was giving the speech, Goku was fighting Jiren in Incomplete UI.
His Super Saiyan Blue also developed enough to warrant the release of Jiren's "overwhelming" power that vastly outstrips anything Toppo would be capable of. In fact, that same power warranted respect from Belmod and concern from Marcarita. There's enough evidence to show that Goku's limits had not only increased, but that he was shattering those limits.
Why does Goku need to have gotten stronger since the U6 and FT arc for those things to make sense?

Already in the U6 everyone was amazed by SSB Kaioken, Beerus was even irritated/frustrated/concerned, Gowasu and Zamasu spectated the fight on Godtube and were in awe of his energy. There's no reason why we need his SSB to have gotten stronger for it to evoke those reactions from Jiren and the ToP crowd.

Hit, who rivalled Goku in his SSB Kaioken form, was also able to hold his ground against Jiren for some time and even incapacitate him with time hax, so Jiren's reaction would be justified even if SSB Kaioken didn't get stronger since the U6 arc.
The example you provided doesn't hold any merit since Ultra Instinct Omen pushes his body's limits far beyond what Blue let alone what Blue Kaioken x20 would demand from his body. Despite that, his body didn't give out after unleashing a Full Powered KHH on Kefla.
But it gave out after he fought Jiren and it got all messed up, and now Anime-wise he cannot even use UI at will anymore.

If his body got stronger, why can't he turn on Ui at will and why did his body give out when he completed Ultra Instinct?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri May 13, 2022 4:40 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am . I'd say the implications are obvious. While SSB wasn't perfected yet in the manga, which is why Toyotaro had Goku figure it out during his solo fight with Fused Zamasu; SSB was already perfected in the anime, w
I do not agree: I think anime and manga "simply" went different routes to improve Blue.
In the manga, Goku worked to keep the initial power-burst of Blue to disperse.
In the anime, Goku worked to REPLICATE said burst at will with Kaiohken.

That said, we need to remember two important elements:
1. Merged Zamasu was immortal and they were actively trying to murder him to death.
2. ToP Rules did forbid murder

Thus it makes plausible Goku would push LESS against Kefla than he did against Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri May 13, 2022 5:46 pm

Here it is! My new tier list:

1. Kid Goku and Raditz
2. El Grande Padre
3. Whiskey man
4. Beer guy
5. Everyone else
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 13, 2022 6:37 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:46 pm Here it is! My new tier list:

1. Kid Goku and Raditz
2. El Grande Padre
3. Whiskey man
4. Beer guy
5. Everyone else
6. Vegeta fighting the main villain
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri May 13, 2022 7:00 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:40 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am . I'd say the implications are obvious. While SSB wasn't perfected yet in the manga, which is why Toyotaro had Goku figure it out during his solo fight with Fused Zamasu; SSB was already perfected in the anime, w
I do not agree: I think anime and manga "simply" went different routes to improve Blue.
In the manga, Goku worked to keep the initial power-burst of Blue to disperse.
In the anime, Goku worked to REPLICATE said burst at will with Kaiohken.

That said, we need to remember two important elements:
1. Merged Zamasu was immortal and they were actively trying to murder him to death.
2. ToP Rules did forbid murder

Thus it makes plausible Goku would push LESS against Kefla than he did against Zamasu
I mean, Kefla blitzed SSG Goku so I doubt he was afraid of accidentally murdering her. There's really no reason why he'd still suppress himself against such an opponent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 14, 2022 12:15 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:33 am No it doesn't, Gowasu stated that Goku Black was the most powerful fighter and he saw Goku use SSB Kaioken x10 against Hit on Godtube. The Toei producer also stated that Goku Black is the most powerful character bar Beerus and fusions, which confirms that Goku Black is stronger than SSB Kaiokenx10 and Hit.

Find me any clear, concise, and conclusive statement like the two above that clearly states Goku got much stronger. Until then it remains conjecture. If a Shonen wants to imply the MC got stronger, they'd have someone clearly and simply state it. Not use vague generic hype lines like "Oh, Goku and Kefla are using more power, they are becoming stronger, their aura is rising!" which can just mean that Goku is using a larger % of his power.
You are attacking a strawman. The assertion was that Blue Kaioken x10 Goku is evidently stronger than Goku Black regardless of what statement the producers may provide given that Blue Kaioken was enough to shatter Merged Zamasu's Halo. Regardless, you don't get to choose who the statement applies to. The writers were already privy to the Tournament of Power in which Goku would be forced to battle even stronger opponents. The statement is already invalidated if you choose to believe the Tournament of Power was considered at the time of writing that statement.

You're demanding for evidence that you know can't be provided. There's already Shonen including Naruto that doesn't explicitly state when certain characters become stronger. That's why a Databook was in place to convey the improvements characters were making because it was never always clear. However, they can be inferred from subtext. If you want more definitive examples in Super, Android 18 is never explicitly stated to be stronger but it can be inferred. Piccolo was weaker than Base Gohan yet manages to compete against Frost and SSJ2 Gohan. That power boost is never directly acknowledged by anyone but can be inferred from what we are shown. Refer back to my previous posts if you want an idea as to why Blue Goku in the Tournament of Power is not the same as he was in the U6 Tournament.

And the narrative also gave Goku a new form with which to battle Jiren, while his SSB Kaioken form was fodder to him.

The narrative also had Goku fuse with Vegeta to fight Zamasu instead of trying to get stronger in SSB like he did in the manga. I'd say the implications are obvious. While SSB wasn't perfected yet in the manga, which is why Toyotaro had Goku figure it out during his solo fight with Fused Zamasu; SSB was already perfected in the anime, which is why Toei had Goku fuse with Vegeta to fight Fused Zamasu, with even Gowasu noting that Zamasu is beyond anything Goku and Vegeta ever used before (including SSB Kaiokenx10).
The narrative already pushes for Goku to have exceeded Kale, Hit, and Toppo so that his power can eventually face up to Jiren's "overwhelming power" that is built up to be the strongest power Goku had ever encountered up until that point outside of fusions. And again when he prepares to battle SSJ Kefla with Blue Kaioken x20. Goku needed to be powerful enough so that Kefla's power would rise to the point where it matched the energy dispersed by Jiren and Blue Kaioken x20 Goku's energy colliding with the Genkidama.

I don't deny that Blue Goku at the time of fighting Zamasu could not face up to Merged Zamasu once Merged Zamasu mutated and powered up even further but that's not an argument I am making here. That's a strawman.

When was this said btw?

The only thing I remember is Vegeta giving his speech about Saiyans breaking their limits and he was obviously referring to Goku mastering Ultra Instinct. Since, as he was giving the speech, Goku was fighting Jiren in Incomplete UI.
During the battle with Kale and Caulifa.

Why does Goku need to have gotten stronger since the U6 and FT arc for those things to make sense?

Already in the U6 everyone was amazed by SSB Kaioken, Beerus was even irritated/frustrated/concerned, Gowasu and Zamasu spectated the fight on Godtube and were in awe of his energy. There's no reason why we need his SSB to have gotten stronger for it to evoke those reactions from Jiren and the ToP crowd.

Hit, who rivalled Goku in his SSB Kaioken form, was also able to hold his ground against Jiren for some time and even incapacitate him with time hax, so Jiren's reaction would be justified even if SSB Kaioken didn't get stronger since the U6 arc.
Because Super Saiyan Blue Goku would not be recognized as the strongest person at the tournament outside of Jiren if that were not the case.

We already have evidence of Blue Goku facing up against a much stronger version of Hit who not only evolved his Time Skip further but obtained a new array of techniques. Despite requiring Blue Kaioken x10 back at U6, Goku only required Blue to defeat Hit. There's no justification for Goku not to have gotten stronger in a series that confirms that Saiyan limits are broken constantly.

But it gave out after he fought Jiren and it got all messed up, and now Anime-wise he cannot even use UI at will anymore.

If his body got stronger, why can't he turn on Ui at will and why did his body give out when he completed Ultra Instinct?
His arms never gave out completely after his 2nd instance of using Ultra Instinct Omen.

The point being, Goku's limits and power could have been much greater at the Tournament of Power than it was when he unleashed that Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu. Therefore, Goku pushing his body to his limits against Merged Zamasu does not tell us how those limits fare compared to a future iteration of Goku. It only conveys to us that Goku needed to shatter his limits against Merged Zamasu but how that compares to the power he used against Jiren and Kefla is unknown solely based on that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 14, 2022 7:14 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:15 am You are attacking a strawman. The assertion was that Blue Kaioken x10 Goku is evidently stronger than Goku Black regardless of what statement the producers may provide given that Blue Kaioken was enough to shatter Merged Zamasu's Halo. Regardless, you don't get to choose who the statement applies to. The writers were already privy to the Tournament of Power in which Goku would be forced to battle even stronger opponents. The statement is already invalidated if you choose to believe the Tournament of Power was considered at the time of writing that statement.
Or Goku got stronger fighting Merged Zamasu. He was beating him without even using Kaio-Ken, after all.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 14, 2022 8:49 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:14 pm
Goku9001 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:15 am You are attacking a strawman. The assertion was that Blue Kaioken x10 Goku is evidently stronger than Goku Black regardless of what statement the producers may provide given that Blue Kaioken was enough to shatter Merged Zamasu's Halo. Regardless, you don't get to choose who the statement applies to. The writers were already privy to the Tournament of Power in which Goku would be forced to battle even stronger opponents. The statement is already invalidated if you choose to believe the Tournament of Power was considered at the time of writing that statement.
Or Goku got stronger fighting Merged Zamasu. He was beating him without even using Kaio-Ken, after all.
Yes. Merged Zamasu would be among those "stronger opponents" and he evidently overpowered him. As you said, the original intention was for the Saiyans to win without fusion until Toriyama changed his mind. In that moment, the intention was that Goku shattered his limits and defeated Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 17, 2022 4:04 pm

Is Goku stronger than Vegeta by the start of the Black Saga? Vegeta got tossed aside pretty quickly by Black as an appetizer while Goku held his own pretty well and was called the main dish. Black and Zamasu even agree that Goku is the only one who could push Black to further heights later.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 17, 2022 10:29 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:04 pm Is Goku stronger than Vegeta by the start of the Black Saga? Vegeta got tossed aside pretty quickly by Black as an appetizer while Goku held his own pretty well and was called the main dish. Black and Zamasu even agree that Goku is the only one who could push Black to further heights later.
This is interesting because it is assumed that Goku was still stronger in the U6 tournament but since he's incapacitated for almost the entire prelude to the Black arc that I assumed Vegeta caught up to him but Black indeed calls Goku a main dish.

Maybe Goku was more ahead of Vegeta that I thought after their RoSaT training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 18, 2022 1:01 am

I spoke with GreatSaiyaman123 very briefly on this topic and there are a few implications that are made that establishes Goku as being stronger than Vegeta initially. Episode 56, once Goku joins the fight against Goku Black, Trunks is mesmerized by Goku's transformation into Blue despite displaying no such reaction to Vegeta and having watched him already been defeated. He also is taken aback by Goku needing to start the fight at full power right away. Episode 57 when Goku Black and Zamasu defeat Goku and Trunks, Trunks states "Even Goku could not win!" which implies that Goku was their best chance in beating Goku Black. Episode 59 when Goku Black is conversing with Zamasu at their lodge/cabin, Goku Black claims that there's no more need for Goku since he's already obtained the ultimate strength so he'll eliminate him. Zamasu actually interjects by saying that with Goku dead, there'd be no one powerful enough to stimulate Goku Black's growth despite being privy to Vegeta and Trunks' strength.

I'm still currently doing my own analysis on the Future Zamasu arc so I've been rewatching the arc in English Subbed. I do recall that during their 2nd visit to Trunks' timeline, Goku Black is seen ragdolling both Vegeta and Trunks simultaneously despite Goku holding his own against Goku Black prior.

Edit: Actually Goku Black seems to power up again before he shows blatant dominance over everyone.

It seems telling that Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the start of the Goku Black arc and eventually Vegeta plays catch up towards the end of the arc. GreatSaiyaman123's argument also support this notion.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed May 18, 2022 9:35 am

Based on the evidence, it's clear Goku started the arc stronger, Vegeta surpassed him, and Goku breaking his limits (and arms) regained the throne.

By the end of the U6 arc, Goku's edge was KK. Prior to that, the implication was that both of them were fairly even with each other. Is it safe to say that recovering from the toll of SSBKK, made him strong enough to surpass Vegeta without KK?

I know there are no mo zenkais, but how else can it be explained? although, vs Copy Vegeta they were dead even in blue, right? and that was after recovering from Blue KK.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 19, 2022 2:23 pm

Goku said Vegeta was stronger than him when he first got to Beerus' planet. I don't think it's ever said how they compare to each other in RoF and U6, so if anyone's got the lead it's Vegeta.

By the Potaufeu incident they're equals though, and afterwards Goku is stronger. I really doubt Goku got a zenkai from U6, they definitely still exist in DBS but Goku was just a bit tired after fighting Hit, nothing to warrant a power up. Vegeta is a more dedicated family man than Goku, so I can see him slipping and letting Goku train more every once in a while.
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