Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Black Hawk
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:44 pm

Noah wrote:But, then how comparable is LSSJ to the God forms? That's the question.
This is just my thought process on the matter: LSSJ and LSSJ2 are somewhere between SSJ3 and SSJ Red, effectively placing LSSJ and LSSJ2 Kafla between SSJ3 Vegetto and a hypothetical SSJ Red Vegetto, certainly placing her beneath SSJ Blue Vegetto. I feel like a statement about Kafla rivaling or equaling a destroyer deity would have been brought up in dialogue if that had been the case. Since Gokū, using Ultra Instinct Omen, wasn't at maximum functionality or power (given Kafla's statement that Gokū's attacks barely did anything to her) and yet was still besting her in battle, I'd assume that they're both below the destroyer deity level, whereas SSJ Blue Vegetto may or may not be at a destroyer deity level. A completed or mastered version of Ultra Instinct Omen, though, for all we know, could equal SSJ Blue Vegetto and a destroyer deity, perhaps.

I hope we'll get more definitive information as or after the series wraps up and concludes.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:48 pm

We do know how Super Saiyan Berseker/Legendary compares to the rest of the forms..

It's way weaker than Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:29 pm

Kefla was never even compared to the power of a Hakaishin.

Even Vegeta, who was annoyed when Goku activated the UI, was not at all surprised when Kefla turned into SSJ2. Not even Beerus and the other Hakaishins showed any other surprise (while the UI actually proved to be something comparable to the other Hakaishins, even though it does not yet have the same level as him)

Goku and Vegeta base >>> Caulifla and Kale base
Then, Vegetto base >>> Kefla base
Vegetto SSB >>> Kefla SSJ2

It's just logical, SSB proved to be much stronger than SSJ Berserker (Kefla even wanted to learn the SSB in the fight against Goku, she said it) and that SSJ Berserker 2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 pm

For simplicity's sake, I tend to place Vegito Blue around the same general level that ALL Hakaishin occupy. They might be a little stronger or weaker compared to each other, but not in a significant way. At least in my own opinion.

That WOULD mean that Jiren being above their level would make him the strongest entity ever fought in terms of ACTUAL power level. Infinite Zamasu is an OCP (stands for "outside context problem") that doesn't abide by standard power-scaling logic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:48 pm

I have Vegito Blue being a notch above a God of Destruction and Merged Zamasu being a notch below.

God of Destruction Toppo would obviously be inbetween and Jiren likely considerably higher.

Not sure how that works with Ultra Instinct Goku as you'd think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be significantly below Vegito Blue which would mean Ultra Instinct Goku would also be below God of Destruction Toppo.

Which I'm turn would mean that there should be no conceivable way that Royal Blue Vegeta could hope to beat Toppo but we'll see how it all turns out. I could be entirely wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:06 pm

Bullza wrote:I have Vegito Blue being a notch above a God of Destruction and Merged Zamasu being a notch below.

God of Destruction Toppo would obviously be inbetween and Jiren likely considerably higher.

Not sure how that works with Ultra Instinct Goku as you'd think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be significantly below Vegito Blue which would mean Ultra Instinct Goku would also be below God of Destruction Toppo.

Which I'm turn would mean that there should be no conceivable way that Royal Blue Vegeta could hope to beat Toppo but we'll see how it all turns out. I could be entirely wrong.
I have vegito and zamasu the same as you powerwise, tho vegito wouldnt be able to beat a god in my opinion, not with the amount of hax these gods have (hakai, un Mastered UI, and probably more) Toppo should most def be above merged zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:21 pm

Bullza wrote:I have Vegito Blue being a notch above a God of Destruction and Merged Zamasu being a notch below.

God of Destruction Toppo would obviously be inbetween and Jiren likely considerably higher.

Not sure how that works with Ultra Instinct Goku as you'd think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be significantly below Vegito Blue which would mean Ultra Instinct Goku would also be below God of Destruction Toppo.

Which I'm turn would mean that there should be no conceivable way that Royal Blue Vegeta could hope to beat Toppo but we'll see how it all turns out. I could be entirely wrong.
Neither UIO Goku or Kefla received statements about reaching GoD level.

Also to the poster that described Infinite Zamasu as OCP, thank you. That fits him so well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:50 pm

The most likely scenario is that vegeta, even with this new form, would start out a lot weaker than Hakaishin Toppo, and maybe get stronger throughout the fight, but the way gokus tone is in the next episode preview suggest that vegeta isn’t enough for toppo and he is gonna attemp something very risky, maybe something involving his life.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:14 pm

I do not understand what the problem in Vegeta is to equal or exceed the level of Hakaishin Toppo. In fact, it would not make any sense if TOEI simply gave him a new transformation that would be useless. Both Vegeta and Toppo gained power ups for some reason, it would make sense if they both had similar levels, especially because we did not see all of Vegeta's power in his new form
After all, Vegeta has been training since the beginning of DBS with the goal of overcoming Beerus, nothing more fair than him in the end to achieve this (or equal).
Well, the title talks about ''surpass even a God'', so this is possible

But in fact we do not even know what level of Toppo in relation to Hakaishins like Beerus, so if Vegeta overcomes Toppo, we do not know exactly at what level he will be.

Anyway, we know that when Goku uses the UI again, he will likely rival Jiren and will overcome the power of a Hakaishin.
So it is possible that Vegeta overcomes the initial UI or the EP 116, especially if he surpass a '' God ''.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:The most likely scenario is that vegeta, even with this new form, would start out a lot weaker than Hakaishin Toppo, and maybe get stronger throughout the fight, but the way gokus tone is in the next episode preview suggest that vegeta isn’t enough for toppo and he is gonna attemp something very risky, maybe something involving his life.
Goku's voice only seems more worried at the end, when he asks if Vegeta intends to die. But of course this would make him scared.
Other than that, Goku just says that Vegeta will face Toppo and use a risky blow, is not suggesting anything

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by puar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:26 pm

no matter how much i think about it. 17's power level dosent make any sense. in 10 years he fought nothing but weak poachers and had no struggle whatsoever. his training was probably not much. i mean i can maybe get it that he could go from the ssj1 level that he was to ssj3 bu not more then that. if goku in 7 years in intense gravity got from mastered ssj to ssj3 then i dont see how 17 can go from below mastered ssj1 level to ss blue level. it just dosent make any sense whatsoever. ss blue is close to god level. now think about it. hit lived for 1000 years and was still weaker then ss blue + kaioken. i just dont see how 17 can get this strong. the only conclusion that i can get to is that super writing is garbage. because it dosent make any sense whatsoever

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:45 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:I do not understand what the problem in Vegeta is to equal or exceed the level of Hakaishin Toppo. In fact, it would not make any sense if TOEI simply gave him a new transformation that would be useless. Both Vegeta and Toppo gained power ups for some reason, it would make sense if they both had similar levels, especially because we did not see all of Vegeta's power in his new form
After all, Vegeta has been training since the beginning of DBS with the goal of overcoming Beerus, nothing more fair than him in the end to achieve this (or equal).
Well, the title talks about ''surpass even a God'', so this is possible

But in fact we do not even know what level of Toppo in relation to Hakaishins like Beerus, so if Vegeta overcomes Toppo, we do not know exactly at what level he will be.

Anyway, we know that when Goku uses the UI again, he will likely rival Jiren and will overcome the power of a Hakaishin.
So it is possible that Vegeta overcomes the initial UI or the EP 116, especially if he surpass a '' God ''.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:The most likely scenario is that vegeta, even with this new form, would start out a lot weaker than Hakaishin Toppo, and maybe get stronger throughout the fight, but the way gokus tone is in the next episode preview suggest that vegeta isn’t enough for toppo and he is gonna attemp something very risky, maybe something involving his life.
Goku's voice only seems more worried at the end, when he asks if Vegeta intends to die. But of course this would make him scared.
Other than that, Goku just says that Vegeta will face Toppo and use a risky blow, is not suggesting anything
Idk about not suggesting anything. The next episode has vegeta doing a DESPERATE blow. For someone to be desperate, they must be in a tight pinch. But let’s see how it works out. Theres nothing to go by exept the tittle. And they are both just getting used to their new power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:18 am

Dragon has been a series where the next villain is more powerful than the last.
Does that mean that Golden Frieza is stronger than Beerus?
Idk why people are still holding on comparing TOP god tiers to Zamazu arc god tiers.
Because Fused Zamasu's and Black's power had been stated to be endless, to have expanded to no end.
Yes, he took that blow, but did not cause any significant damage to Vegetto, who clearly pretended to have been defeated so he could catch Zamasu by surprise
He spit when he was punched, in Dragon Ball that clearly means that the attack did do some degree of damage.
And just after Vegetto hit that punch in Zamasu, some sort of purple smoke comes out of his face, even looking like he was breaking up.
Yeah, just like it happened with Future Zamasu before, but Fused Zamasu was immortal so it didn't do much at all.
But the merger fell apart on time, so Vegetto probably did not have enough time to finish Zamasu, but that was the intention and it seemed that it would work
History would have repeated itself, with Zamasu's body being obliterated by Vegito but his soul latching onto the Universe and becoming one with justice and order.
In fact, Black just said that if anger could be a source of power, he would be the strongest to have the most anger. He did not say he was the strongest, he only used anger as a parameter
Yeah, but later on he stated that 'his had surpassed even his own understanding'... which means, personally, that it was higher than a Super Saiyan Blue at the very least. And indeed, Gowasu states in the next episode that Black was the most powerful.

Regardless, let's simply agree to disagree. I will agree that the powerscaling is a mess. Characters like Fused Zamasu are stated by Gowasu and Shin to be beyond their comprehension and have boundless power, yet they can lose to a Super Saiyan 'Rage' wielding the energy of two exhausted base Saiyans and 30 wounded civilians. Seems pretty stupid to me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:34 am

While I also think Vegetto Blue completely murks any version of Kefla, just because Kale and Caulifla are weaker than Goku and Vegeta doesn't mean that their respective fusion share the same relation. In fact, Kefla is stronger than SSG Goku who in turn is in a whole another dimension compared to SS3 Vegetto (or SS Vegetto if you think Goku referred to that).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:40 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Regardless, let's simply agree to disagree. I will agree that the powerscaling is a mess. Characters like Fused Zamasu are stated by Gowasu and Shin to be beyond their comprehension and have boundless power, yet they can lose to a Super Saiyan 'Rage' wielding the energy of two exhausted base Saiyans and 30 wounded civilians. Seems pretty stupid to me.
Trunks got the energy from the whole Earth, not just humans. He also absorbed the energy and that isn't an addition but a multiplication of your power.
Green wrote:While I also think Vegetto Blue completely murks any version of Kefla, just because Kale and Caulifla are weaker than Goku and Vegeta doesn't mean that their respective fusion share the same relation. In fact, Kefla is stronger than SSG Goku who in turn is in a whole another dimension compared to SS3 Vegetto (or SS Vegetto if you think Goku referred to that).
A tired SSG you mean.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:00 am

Green wrote:While I also think Vegetto Blue completely murks any version of Kefla, just because Kale and Caulifla are weaker than Goku and Vegeta doesn't mean that their respective fusion share the same relation. In fact, Kefla is stronger than SSG Goku who in turn is in a whole another dimension compared to SS3 Vegetto (or SS Vegetto if you think Goku referred to that).
You have to remember that the SSJ3 vegito that goku surpasses as a god was before he obtained Godly Ki, not current vegito. Likewise, you can’t compare kale and caulifla to goku and vegeta before they obtained Godly Ki, because (regardless of how dumb is sounds) they are dimensions above pre-god Ki vegeta and goku.
Base vegito was shown to be comparable to a SSB Goku and vegeta just in base, if we go by the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:07 am

Considering ssj2 kefla could one hit kill second UI Goku if she hit him with her attack, id say she is above FT blue Vegetto. Makes no sense, but power scaling never did in Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:11 am

buutenks wrote:Considering ssj2 kefla could one hit kill second UI Goku if she hit him with her attack, id say she is above FT blue Vegetto. Makes no sense, but power scaling never did in Super.
Yeah, that attack could have killed Goku if it landed, because it was designed to cleave through its opponents. Thats kind of like saying "oh yeah, Kuririn was stronger than Nappa in the Saiyan Saga because he could have killed him with his Kienzan", its statement that doesn't really take into account the actually context of what happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:48 am

I’m reading people talk about Vegeta struggling with Toppo, but Herms put spoilers on last week that said Vegeta gets attacked by Toppo and Jiren, and Vegeta uses a nonstop full-power attack against Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:31 am

Noah wrote:
wolflonnie wrote:The fact that people are even considering SSJ2 Kefla above SSB Vegetto hurts my soul lol. But I can see the reasoning behind. It's just... so frustrating.
There's no reasoning: Super power levels are just messed up, by logical means SSJ2 Kefla should be still weaker than a (FT) Super Vegetto.
Exactly. This is why I'm tempted to rank Merged Zamasu as high as possible, but... the show undeniably favours Kefla's performance over Vegetto's.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:47 am

ZombieVito wrote: A tired SSG you mean.
Yeah but how much weaker could he be? Goku's normal SS forms weren't much weakened that we know of. Point is, Kefla was way stronger than Vegetto in equal forms. Also @Kenneth, even if Goku and Vegeta powered up considerably there should (maybe) still be a proportion between them and their fusion. Or are you saying that the gap between their transformations got smaller and thus Vegetto is comparable to SSG? That could be the case in the anime but Goku clearly stated SSG is on a totally different level to anything he showed to Toppo.

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