Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:54 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:I do not understand what the problem in Vegeta is to equal or exceed the level of Hakaishin Toppo. In fact, it would not make any sense if TOEI simply gave him a new transformation that would be useless. Both Vegeta and Toppo gained power ups for some reason, it would make sense if they both had similar levels, especially because we did not see all of Vegeta's power in his new form
After all, Vegeta has been training since the beginning of DBS with the goal of overcoming Beerus, nothing more fair than him in the end to achieve this (or equal).
Well, the title talks about ''surpass even a God'', so this is possible

But in fact we do not even know what level of Toppo in relation to Hakaishins like Beerus, so if Vegeta overcomes Toppo, we do not know exactly at what level he will be.

Anyway, we know that when Goku uses the UI again, he will likely rival Jiren and will overcome the power of a Hakaishin.
So it is possible that Vegeta overcomes the initial UI or the EP 116, especially if he surpass a '' God ''.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:The most likely scenario is that vegeta, even with this new form, would start out a lot weaker than Hakaishin Toppo, and maybe get stronger throughout the fight, but the way gokus tone is in the next episode preview suggest that vegeta isn’t enough for toppo and he is gonna attemp something very risky, maybe something involving his life.
Goku's voice only seems more worried at the end, when he asks if Vegeta intends to die. But of course this would make him scared.
Other than that, Goku just says that Vegeta will face Toppo and use a risky blow, is not suggesting anything
Idk about not suggesting anything. The next episode has vegeta doing a DESPERATE blow. For someone to be desperate, they must be in a tight pinch. But let’s see how it works out. Theres nothing to go by exept the tittle. And they are both just getting used to their new power.
When I said "not suggesting anything," I was referring to the fact that Goku is worried about the preview is only about the risk of death of Vegeta, it's not as if all the NEP was worried. This does not necessarily mean that Vegeta will not be enough for Toppo (because the title talks about "surpass even a God", so we do not know what Vegeta can do)

Vegeta's "risky blow" is not necessarily a sacrifice or Vegeta trying to kill himself (as he did against Boo, in which he was weaker).
It could be an attack using everything he has, or he can somehow risk to defend Toppo's attack and counterattack, or whatever. As I said, it does not necessarily mean that he is weaker (mainly because it would not make sense to put "surpass even one God" if Vegeta were not trying to outdo a God somehow or if he was inferior)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:43 am

So my line of thinking is that in the manga Beerus and Champa were implied to be about to wipe out the universe with a single shot which is why Whis and Vados knocked them out.

When Kefla became a Super Saiyan 2 it was only at that point that she felt she had enough power to wipe out a universe with one shot. Which would naturally mean she didn't have that power beforehand. Therefore Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla and everyone else below that level would not be as strong as a God of Destruction.

Which makes me think that God of Destruction Toppo > Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 and Super Saiyan Kefla.

How Toppo would compare to Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla who knows.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:21 am

Bullza wrote:So my line of thinking is that in the manga Beerus and Champa were implied to be about to wipe out the universe with a single shot which is why Whis and Vados knocked them out.

When Kefla became a Super Saiyan 2 it was only at that point that she felt she had enough power to wipe out a universe with one shot. Which would naturally mean she didn't have that power beforehand. Therefore Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla and everyone else below that level would not be as strong as a God of Destruction.

Which makes me think that God of Destruction Toppo > Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 and Super Saiyan Kefla.

How Toppo would compare to Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla who knows.

It is really difficult when no in universe char makes a comparison between BPs.
Last edited by buutenks on Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:29 am

Green wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: A tired SSG you mean.
Yeah but how much weaker could he be? Goku's normal SS forms weren't much weakened that we know of. Point is, Kefla was way stronger than Vegetto in equal forms. Also @Kenneth, even if Goku and Vegeta powered up considerably there should (maybe) still be a proportion between them and their fusion. Or are you saying that the gap between their transformations got smaller and thus Vegetto is comparable to SSG? That could be the case in the anime but Goku clearly stated SSG is on a totally different level to anything he showed to Toppo.
To be fair, the Potara are also described to create a new warrior who is in a totally different dimension as well. And in Chapter #23 Base Vegetto’s ki blast could be possibly on par with a non-completed SSB’s.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 am

Trunks got the energy from the whole Earth, not just humans. He also absorbed the energy and that isn't an addition but a multiplication of your power.
Ah, ok. So the power of one Super Saiyan Rage coupled with that of two exhausted base Saiyans, 30 wounded civilians, some animals, a trash Android, and a devastated wasteland is enough to utterly obliterate a being whose power was stated to have expanded to no end and who was barely harmed by the mighty Vegito. Very interesting. I guess you can learn any technique with the power of love and friendship.

What a mess. At least Zamasu got his own back on that plot-armored Mary Sue in the following episode.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:21 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Trunks got the energy from the whole Earth, not just humans. He also absorbed the energy and that isn't an addition but a multiplication of your power.
Ah, ok. So the power of one Super Saiyan Rage coupled with that of two exhausted base Saiyans, 30 wounded civilians, some animals, a trash Android, and a devastated wasteland is enough to utterly obliterate a being whose power was state to have expanded to no end and who was barely harmed by the mighty Vegito. Very interesting. I guess you can learn any technique with the power of love and friendship.

What a mess. At least Zamasu got his own back on that plot-armored Mary Sue in the following episode.
Why i love ep 67, it craps on nakama power. Trunks getting enough power to destroy Zamasu's body made 0 sense, but was cool to watch tho.

Hah now that i think about it. Last part of episode 66 is Cloud Strife vs Sephiroth lol. Yellow haired guy with giant sword fighting an insane guy with silver hair.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ernesth100 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:49 am

Okay I never expected Toppo to go GoD in this tournament. Gohan and Dyspo are out so here's an updated power scale list.

1. Jiren
2. Toppo(GoD Mode)
3. Goku(SSBKiaoKen)
4. Vegeta(Super Blue)
5. Frieza
6. 17

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:12 pm

I did some digging for some context of Kefla vs Goku and I've came to a conclusion that Kefla may not be strong as we thought or Spirit bomb level. I mean I see people wank her above GOD Toppo level(what we see in episode 125) and UI Goku in other forums.

First of all here are the actual Japanese translations of the scene in episode 116, which I've been given from someone whom speaks Japanese:

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」
Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefla-san
Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled his power when he bathed in the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

Important part being "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気", in detail and somewhat transliterally:
"元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" means "The power of when [Goku] bathed in the Genkidama"
"匹敵するほど" means "to be so much as to rival" (匹敵 means equaling/rivaling/matching)
"ケフラさんの気" means "Kefla-san's Ki"

So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Most likely is that Whis is talking about Kelfa gigantic ki made Goku rival the low state he was to when he bathed in the Genkidama, especially when he was so fatigued he fell into the spirt bomb with his Ki being hard to sense and low under rubble to the point no one could sense it momentarily. It wouldn't make sense for kefla power to be comparable to the Goku low state but instead the effects as both broke his limit to the point he had no ki left. Regardless it makes more sense if you connect the rest of the context without disturbing the statement, as Whis continue to talk about Kefla ki being a stimulus that broke his shell which reinforces the fact he was comparing the effect(both pushed Goku into a low state) and role interpretation. Even the narrator confirms that it was the extreme overall battle that served to trigger the form not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.

In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah", even while further saying and acknowledging that he didn't know Kefla power as SSJ would be so powerful at the same time and it was a happy miscalculation. So it can't be implied that Champa still underestimates her.

Later on fatigued Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power. This was most likely x10 as powered up more as that's when his aura get significantly expands when powering from regular kaioken to x10 like as shown in the battle with Hit, but again you could argue he's just using a higher of his normal kaioken to x3-4. So to think her power skyrocketed without powering up in the same form would be absurd especially when going from being inferior to fatigue SSBKK to the Genkidama even with one kick. If we assume that Kefla at SSJ alone is genkidama level, in the same time it's like conceding that full power SSB or fatigue SSBKK(x10 if not less) would rival too.

It should be noted that Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of staimia/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha. Just like the Hit fight, his stamina began to got worse and would've did more damage to him if the fight prolong. As far dragon ball goes injuries do result to reduce Ki, like when Gohan got kicked in the head during the Ginyu force battle.

When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん!
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

Even if you translate 先ほど in google translator It'll come up with "earlier" even though google translator isn't always reliable when it comes to interpreting different languages in English, the same kanji meaning is still close to the translation above. Regardless the only more recent previous level that happened was SSBKK that Goku used while fatigued and was already overpowering Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:18 pm

Kefla is stronger than 109-110 SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, but that’s about it. There really is a lot of wanking going on with her. So far, there have only been two characters in the tournament of power who have been stated to be at hakaishin level, and that is a suppressed jiren, and toppo in his god of destruction form. And in the next remaining weeks, vegeta will reach that level, and goku will perhaps surpass it along with jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm

ZombieVito wrote:We do know how Super Saiyan Berseker/Legendary compares to the rest of the forms..

It's way weaker than Super Saiyan God.
weaker yes but not much
Kale was able to put up a decent fight against ssjg goku while her teammate was treated like absolute trash and deflect and energy ball from him though with difficulty
Shes in his tier on the lower end

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:16 pm

puar wrote:no matter how much i think about it. 17's power level dosent make any sense. in 10 years he fought nothing but weak poachers and had no struggle whatsoever. his training was probably not much. i mean i can maybe get it that he could go from the ssj1 level that he was to ssj3 bu not more then that. if goku in 7 years in intense gravity got from mastered ssj to ssj3 then i dont see how 17 can go from below mastered ssj1 level to ss blue level. it just dosent make any sense whatsoever. ss blue is close to god level. now think about it. hit lived for 1000 years and was still weaker then ss blue + kaioken. i just dont see how 17 can get this strong. the only conclusion that i can get to is that super writing is garbage. because it dosent make any sense whatsoever
It makes about as much sense as Roshi's 1 year secret training that took him from struggling against less than Raditz tier opponents to on par with current base Goku.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:23 pm

lord turbo wrote:
puar wrote:no matter how much i think about it. 17's power level dosent make any sense. in 10 years he fought nothing but weak poachers and had no struggle whatsoever. his training was probably not much. i mean i can maybe get it that he could go from the ssj1 level that he was to ssj3 bu not more then that. if goku in 7 years in intense gravity got from mastered ssj to ssj3 then i dont see how 17 can go from below mastered ssj1 level to ss blue level. it just dosent make any sense whatsoever. ss blue is close to god level. now think about it. hit lived for 1000 years and was still weaker then ss blue + kaioken. i just dont see how 17 can get this strong. the only conclusion that i can get to is that super writing is garbage. because it dosent make any sense whatsoever
It makes about as much sense as Roshi's 1 year secret training that took him from struggling against less than Raditz tier opponents to on par with current base Goku.
That's why I don't subscribe to the notion that power levels need to exactly be within range of each other for fighters to exchange blows and have actual combat mechanics play a role in determining the flow of a fight.

For example, the Roshi instance you provided, I chalked it up as Roshi indeed having gotten stronger and overall an even better fighter, which Goku notes. That's it. No power level comparisons or anything beyond the rudimentary and undefined, since the narrative is painting that scene as "Roshi got pretty strong, and his former pupil realizes this". This mentality DOES go against "established power-scaling logic", but then again, so does the idea that martial arts ability plays a role in how a fight will go.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:39 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:That's why I don't subscribe to the notion that power levels need to exactly be within range of each other for fighters to exchange blows and have actual combat mechanics play a role in determining the flow of a fight.
The mechanics in DBS is just like it is in db/z, if two fighters of near equal engage in combat they have a back and forth trading blows or get into evenish power struggles between the two of them. Only when the fighter raises his level higher than the other guy does it fall into "my power level is higher than yours." Roshi has to be somewhere near said fighter's level for all his tricks to come into play as far ad hand ti hand combat which shows how far he has come since then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:12 pm

lord turbo wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:That's why I don't subscribe to the notion that power levels need to exactly be within range of each other for fighters to exchange blows and have actual combat mechanics play a role in determining the flow of a fight.
The mechanics in DBS is just like it is in db/z, if two fighters of near equal engage in combat they have a back and forth trading blows or get into evenish power struggles between the two of them. Only when the fighter raises his level higher than the other guy does it fall into "my power level is higher than yours." Roshi has to be somewhere near said fighter's level for all his tricks to come into play as far ad hand ti hand combat which shows how far he has come since then.
So what's with all this talk of landing solid blows, or blocking stopping most of the damage, or regular attacks simply not working against certain opponents?

I get it. People just want their power-scaling consistency to fit a single tried-and-true mold.

But honestly.......

Why does Roshi "have to be" close to some fighter's levels to be able to fight them? Why does doing well in a fight "have to be" down to being stronger than your opponent? Why does the power level "have to be" the most important part of a fight between martial artists?

The paradigm has shifted for the narrative being told right now. No longer is it merely about who's the strongest, at least not all the time. It's about the best overall fighter one can be, whether it be through power (i.e. Jiren), speed (i.e. Dyspo), experience (i.e. Roshi), or some combination thereof (i.e. Ultra Instinct Goku). In-universe, the characters note fighters' power levels AND how well they can fight. Why was Jiren able to tank SSB Vegeta's blows earlier but then catch a few solid blows in the exact same episode? Because Vegeta read his movements and landed his blows accordingly. Many other fights throughout this whole tournament have been predicated on this kind of martial arts narrative.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:29 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:That's why I don't subscribe to the notion that power levels need to exactly be within range of each other for fighters to exchange blows and have actual combat mechanics play a role in determining the flow of a fight.
The mechanics in DBS is just like it is in db/z, if two fighters of near equal engage in combat they have a back and forth trading blows or get into evenish power struggles between the two of them. Only when the fighter raises his level higher than the other guy does it fall into "my power level is higher than yours." Roshi has to be somewhere near said fighter's level for all his tricks to come into play as far ad hand ti hand combat which shows how far he has come since then.
So what's with all this talk of landing solid blows, or blocking stopping most of the damage, or regular attacks simply not working against certain opponents?

I get it. People just want their power-scaling consistency to fit a single tried-and-true mold.

But honestly.......

Why does Roshi "have to be" close to some fighter's levels to be able to fight them? Why does doing well in a fight "have to be" down to being stronger than your opponent? Why does the power level "have to be" the most important part of a fight between martial artists?

The paradigm has shifted for the narrative being told right now. No longer is it merely about who's the strongest, at least not all the time. It's about the best overall fighter one can be, whether it be through power (i.e. Jiren), speed (i.e. Dyspo), experience (i.e. Roshi), or some combination thereof (i.e. Ultra Instinct Goku). In-universe, the characters note fighters' power levels AND how well they can fight. Why was Jiren able to tank SSB Vegeta's blows earlier but then catch a few solid blows in the exact same episode? Because Vegeta read his movements and landed his blows accordingly. Many other fights throughout this whole tournament have been predicated on this kind of martial arts narrative.
But Vegeta said Jiren wasn't fighting as strong or fast as he was against Kakarot. Then when Jiren got serious he smacked Vegeta around easily.
Even When Vegeta hit Jiren, the blows did no damage to him. Since later a much more powerful attack in Final Flash did absolutely nothing to Jiren.

Even in Master Roshi's battle, his skill meant nothing when his opponent's strength grew to another level. Roshi had to resort in beating him with higher power with his best and strongest Kamehameha.
Even Dyspo's speed was outclassed by a "more powerful" Golden Freeza. Dyspo didn't become faster than Golden Freeza until he "raised his overall Ki" to become stronger than Golden Freeza.

Even Ultra Instinct Goku needed a power boost for his skill set to be effective against Jiren in the episode special. This was stated by Tien and Whis.
Dragonball has always been about the martial arts narrative. However the Ki level was always the deciding factor for victory. The "skill" was just an added bonus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:41 pm

I also never said that power levels were worthless or not usable.

I'm just saying that the narrative has downplayed just how important they are in comparison to everything else. All I want is for people to not try to meticulously power-scale every single instance and at least CONSIDER that maybe the fight is dependent on more factors than just one's strength.

It's always bothered me that people around take every single moment in the current arc and try to blow it out into a matter of exactly how strong someone is compared to another, without even CONSIDERING the additional context and OTHER criteria that determines the outcome of a fight.

When we're told in the show itself that one's power level matters at a given moment, THEN I feel it's appropriate to do meticulous power-scaling. But otherwise? At least CONSIDER the possibility that other factors are more important. Can you guys do that? At least give it a try.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:05 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I also never said that power levels were worthless or not usable.

I'm just saying that the narrative has downplayed just how important they are in comparison to everything else. All I want is for people to not try to meticulously power-scale every single instance and at least CONSIDER that maybe the fight is dependent on more factors than just one's strength.

It's always bothered me that people around take every single moment in the current arc and try to blow it out into a matter of exactly how strong someone is compared to another, without even CONSIDERING the additional context and OTHER criteria that determines the outcome of a fight.

When we're told in the show itself that one's power level matters at a given moment, THEN I feel it's appropriate to do meticulous power-scaling. But otherwise? At least CONSIDER the possibility that other factors are more important. Can you guys do that? At least give it a try.
We do consider it but we can't accept it being more important than power level cause the narrative has Jiren sitting on the throne as the strongest due to battle power.
The skill set is just an ADDED bonus to one's overall strength. It's always been like this in Dragonball.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
The mechanics in DBS is just like it is in db/z, if two fighters of near equal engage in combat they have a back and forth trading blows or get into evenish power struggles between the two of them. Only when the fighter raises his level higher than the other guy does it fall into "my power level is higher than yours." Roshi has to be somewhere near said fighter's level for all his tricks to come into play as far ad hand ti hand combat which shows how far he has come since then.
So what's with all this talk of landing solid blows, or blocking stopping most of the damage, or regular attacks simply not working against certain opponents?

I get it. People just want their power-scaling consistency to fit a single tried-and-true mold.

But honestly.......

Why does Roshi "have to be" close to some fighter's levels to be able to fight them? Why does doing well in a fight "have to be" down to being stronger than your opponent? Why does the power level "have to be" the most important part of a fight between martial artists?

The paradigm has shifted for the narrative being told right now. No longer is it merely about who's the strongest, at least not all the time. It's about the best overall fighter one can be, whether it be through power (i.e. Jiren), speed (i.e. Dyspo), experience (i.e. Roshi), or some combination thereof (i.e. Ultra Instinct Goku). In-universe, the characters note fighters' power levels AND how well they can fight. Why was Jiren able to tank SSB Vegeta's blows earlier but then catch a few solid blows in the exact same episode? Because Vegeta read his movements and landed his blows accordingly. Many other fights throughout this whole tournament have been predicated on this kind of martial arts narrative.
But Vegeta said Jiren wasn't fighting as strong or fast as he was against Kakarot. Then when Jiren got serious he smacked Vegeta around easily.
Even When Vegeta hit Jiren, the blows did no damage to him. Since later a much more powerful attack in Final Flash did absolutely nothing to Jiren.

Even in Master Roshi's battle, his skill meant nothing when his opponent's strength grew to another level. Roshi had to resort in beating him with higher power with his best and strongest Kamehameha.
Even Dyspo's speed was outclassed by a "more powerful" Golden Freeza. Dyspo didn't become faster than Golden Freeza until he "raised his overall Ki" to become stronger than Golden Freeza.

Even Ultra Instinct Goku needed a power boost for his skill set to be effective against Jiren in the episode special. This was stated by Tien and Whis.
Dragonball has always been about the martial arts narrative. However the Ki level was always the deciding factor for victory. The "skill" was just an added bonus.
Dyspo is a bad example, because his speed was the only that increased with his “maximum high speed mode”. So yes, that was a battle about speed over power. But those are just rare exceptions. Dyspo is basically the flash, he uses his speed to pack a punch.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 pm

Like I said before, I'm not saying to abandon power levels, nor am I even saying they aren't important.

Thus far, however, the narrative has only really played up power levels for the most important stuff, the endgame characters.

Even then, Dyspo, a character whose strength is his speed, hung on for a long time and continued to be a major player despite his static power level. We also see that good skill and "coordination" have kept Jiren from completely annihilating the likes of Goku and Vegeta and actually pressured him to use more power to keep his advantage.

In turn, 17 has used his skill and strategic mind to maintain his position on the field on the overwhelmingly stronger Hakaishin Toppo.

Now, for these endgame scenarios, yeah, power-scaling is a bit more prevalent. But for the earlier stuff, the fights between the other Universes? That stuff, I feel, needs to be reanalyzed by the majority of folks here with the lens of a "non power-level focused" perspective.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:43 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Dyspo is a bad example, because his speed was the only that increased with his “maximum high speed mode”. So yes, that was a battle about speed over power. But those are just rare exceptions. Dyspo is basically the flash, he uses his speed to pack a punch.
Nope. Dyspo's overall power increased proven by the fact base Dyspo couldn't hurt Golden Freeza with his punch but "Hyper-speed mode" Dyspo was damaging Golden Freeza.

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