Amir wrote: TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Exactly. TOP SSJB is way above ROF SSJB. There are countless evidences to confirm that. Also 17 is stronger than ROF SSJB.
Also I have no idea why you keep saying 17 wasn't able to damage Toppo. When he blasted him with the ki blast spam, his intention was to keep him busy because he knew he would lose in a head on fight. But that doesn't mean 17's attacks aren't strong enough to damage Toppo. The fact that Toppo had to focus everything on the beam struggle to the point it left him completely opened to attacks, and even after being attacked by Frieza in the back he still chose to keep both hands on the beam struggle is a proof that 17's power is close to that of Toppo and it's enough to damage him.
The fact 17 managed to hold off Toppo's full power blast also confirms his power level.
Yes, the fact that 17 did not cause any damage to suppressed Toppo proves that it is considerably inferior to SSB. Piccolo himself said that 17 was keeping Toppo busy, but none of his attacks were decisive. Toppo realized that 17 wanted to hold him until the end of the tournament and so he used all his power. And with all his power, 17 had no chance. But Freeza, who is as strong as Toppo was there and so 17 managed to push Ki's attack back.
First off Toppo was not suppressed at all, and no it doesn't. 17 wasn't even trying damage him, he tried to keep him busy until time runs out, playing it safe and smart. That was the purpose of that ki blast spam, Saying he couldn't harm Toppo's body when he wasn't trying to is invalid. And Toppo was still pushed back by the blasts and had to block it, and even then it slashed his uniform a bit, so that confirms 17 has enough power to damage Toppo. among many other things, like how his blast defeated him with Frieza's blast as well. When SSJB Goku fought Golden Frieza in ROF, Golden Frieza was a little bit stronger yet he dominated Goku and Goku didn't put a scratch on him, does that mean Goku's attacks were too weak to damage Golden Frieza? 17 knew fighting head on with Toppo would be similar to the fight I just mentioned because Toppo was a bit stronger, that was the reason he tried to stall him, not because his attacks are too weak to harm him, that's absurd.
And you continue to ignore my point about 17 holding off a full power blast from Toppo and somewhat matching it, keeping up with him in combat, tanking hits from Jiren, scratching Jiren, keeping up with him just like Goku and Vegeta...it's clearly obvious 17's power is just a bit below SSJB and Toppo.
Yes, Toppo was suppressed. He only used his maximum power in the energy dispute against the 17 (at that time, he said he would use all his justice against 17 and raise his Ki). So before that he was suppressed.
17 was trying to keep Toppo occupied precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
When he saw that it was six minutes to the end, he tried to hold Toppo until the tournament was over.
And like I said, all this was not enough to do even a relevant damage to Toppo. He just cut off some of his clothes (and it was nothing close to what Goku SSB did with a Kamehameha, in which in addition to leaving Toppo's uniform more damaged, it also left him panting and irritated).
And the case of Goku and Golden Freeza was different.
Goku was far inferior, but even so, when his blows really hit Freeza, they clearly caused pain to the emperor. In the case of 17, not even his attacks of Ki scratch Toppo.
17 could do absolutely nothing against Toppo's full-power attack, he was only able to counter when Freeza attacked Toppo.
Bullza wrote:I hope that Goku fights Jiren with his non mastered Ultra Instinct first in the next episode or the one after. If he's able to put up a decent fight then it was would clear the confusion and mean that
Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and God of Destruction Toppo
Even if non mastered UI Goku face Jiren, he will be much stronger than the last time he used the technique.
This also happened on EP 116, it was getting stronger.
That would not mean that Royal Blue vegeta and Toppo can not be stronger than UI Goku (EP 110 or 116)
Kaiosama wrote:I think Beyond Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is stronger than UI Omen Goku in terms of raw battle power and sustainability, but will be far weaker than Mastered UI. I think both Toppo and Jiren are actually superior to both outside of a tournament setting where they don't have to worry about killing their opponents, especially with Hakai in Toppo's case.
The fact that Toppo can not kill does not mean he would beat Vegeta. He tried to use several Hakais and could not do anything.
Not even his last super Hakai was able to defeat Vegeta,
Jiren showed that Vegeta really is stronger than Toppo when he said on EP 127 that he understood why Vegeta was able to defeat Toppo (after defending Vegeta's punch and praising him)